EV Digest 5816
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today, and Sound.
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 192v charging question (9A31 Dekka Intimidators)
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today, and Sound.
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hot New RC Battery
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 192v charging question (9A31 Dekka Intimidators)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Karmann Ghia vs Baja Bug vs Thing vs Kit bug
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Hot New RC Battery
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Timer for charging
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Zilla-powered pickup for sale in Northern California
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Solectria BC3kW Chargers
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Tech info for 48V GE motor on Surplus Center
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: 192v charging question (9A31 Dekka Intimidators)
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Timer for charging
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: SMARTcar on eBay
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Karman Ghia vs Baha Bug vs Thing vs Kit Bug
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: 192v charging question (9A31 Dekka Intimidators)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
Gees! 180 lbs? That SHOULD move a displacment hull boat along just
fine? ... Instead of a towline, he
pulled aside me, and I just held on, with one hand, as he towed me along
faster than I had sailed all afternoon, steering with the tiller/rudder, I
kept the two hulls apart, and just glided along. Thinking, boy, slower speed
boats just don't NEED alota "Push" or power to go! I'm taking a trolling
motor and dynisty 12 volt battery NEXT time, I can "Motor" in as needed,
dignity intact.
As A Netgain dealer I get calls all the time, guy wants to put a 9 or11
motor in a boat. Wants tp plane off, Maybe Waterski? and go 40 miles" Well,
the CARS go that far"Ya gotta let them down easy, isn't a motor issue, but
the batterys common people can buy, IS the issue.It's right up there with
the generator on the front wheel thing.
I did some math on using Kokams for that Etek-based outboard. It was
actually quite doable, but insanely expensive. I would personally worry
about using a series motor for a boat; too easy to get the prop out of
the water for a moment. Or just get some bad cavitation and start
over-revving. Better be using some bullet-proof RPM limiting, eh?
I'd say that the slow camp (casual fishing and light cruising) has the
definite advantage on the water when it comes to EVs. Because of the
*much* slower speeds, lower voltage and lower amps prevail (48V is
considered quite reasonable for a 4-8 passenger medium sized boat). I
get from one end of a 2.5 mile lake to the good fishing spot in the
middle in 20 minutes at 12V/25A. I'll do it in 12-15 at 24V/20A. It took
me 10-12 using a 4HP ICE in a 12.5' generic fishing boat.
When's the last time you made a 10MPH top speed EV that kept up with 60%
of the traffic?
If I can't wait the extra 3 minutes, I shouldn't be fishing then :-P
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could I guess. I'm hoping to find the right tool. I could mill a
socket with 5 legs on it I suppose.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> could you weld a couple of ball bearings into an oversized socket
for those
> nuts?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:03 AM
> Subject: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
>
>
> > The BB600 packs I got are 19 to a box. The box is something special,
> > but the nuts that hold the buss bars in place are not one I've seen
> > before. Here is a link. Please tell me what that nut it is so I
can get
> > a socket for it.
> >
> > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nuts2.jpg
> >
> > These BB600 cells are also different in that the normal 10-32 screws
> > have been replaced with a 10-32 to 3/8" stud-standoff. You can see it
> > under the buss bar. Maybe for higher current. The buss bars and nuts
> > are covered with Cosmolene. So that's why they have a brown tint to
> > them.
> >
> > Tonight these cells on their first journey out took the USE truck 40
> > miles on 38ah at night, headlights and radio on, 66 degree ambient,
> > medium lead foot, 34-40mph in stop and go traffic with lots of stop
> > lights. Awesome first run! I think I can get 50 miles. So for a little
> > more weight the truck has well over doubled it's mileage on only 228
> > cells. There are 24 more going into the box, but they just arrived
> > today.
> >
> > Mike
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
Thanks for the necessary flogging.
My battracidal tendancies aside though, the first two 30 and 35 mile runs I did
about 6 weeks ago got me home with ~56% and ~52% SOC on the voltage scale.
Yesterday I get home with 28 miles and 11.8Vpb (dead on the voltage scale) and
I'm trying to figure out why my range is reduced in this short time period.
For the first month until I read the lists fine posts about AGM charging I was
charging at 14.6Vpb with a 30 minute timeout after regulation kicks in. Now
after reading yours and other's posts I've been charging at 14.125 Vpb with a 1
hour timeout after regulation. It seems I may not be putting as much energy
into the batteries as I was the first month and so my range estimation of 40
miles to 50% may not hold with this charging scheme.
My question to the list is, is it better to keep charging at 14.125 Vpb (Deka's
min recomendation @ 80*F - 90*F) but increase the acceptance charge time
appreciably? Or would it be better to go to 14.4 Vpb (Deka's max recomendation
@ 80*F - 90*F) and keep the acceptance charge time at around an hour?
Mike,
"Whats the Statute of Limitations on Battracide?"
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, August 31, 2006 8:49 am
Subject: Re: 192v charging question (9A31 Dekka Intimidators)
To: [email protected]
> Mike Willmon wrote:
> > So I had my first "limp home the last 3 miles at 20mph" day.
>
> This is a classic mistake that most first-time EVers make --
> continuingto drive when the batteries are so dead that the vehicle
> can barely
> move. I know; we've all done it -- and learned to regret it!
>
> This is a VERY BAD thing to do to your batteries! Those last few miles
> cost you hundreds of dollars in battery damage and shortened their
> lifeappreciably.
>
> When your EV slows down like this, one or more cells are dropping
> under1.75v under load. That means they are DEAD. If you keep
> driving at the
> same current, you will reverse them (charge them in the reverse
> direction). This drastically reduces their amphour capacity and
> seriously shortens their life.
>
> I know it's hard to stop driving; our ego urges us "just one more
> mile... I'm almost there. I'll be late for something. I'm not a
> quitter..." But that's what you have to do; otherwise you become a
> battery serial killer.
>
> So, what to do if the speed drops and the voltage sags alarmingly?
>
> 1. Stop driving. Let the batteries rest half an hour or whatevery you
> can spare. Their voltage will come back up enough to let you drive
> a little farther at normal voltages.
>
> 2. Find some place to charge. Even a brief "opportunity charge" will
> do wonders for the battery's performance. Almost anyone will let
> you plug in for a while if you're polite and offer to pay. Most
> people are so curious that they will let you charge for free.
>
> 3. Drive slower, to keep the voltages over 1.75v/cell.
>
> 4. Park it. Walk, call a friend, take a cab or bus. Give it a few
> hours rest and it will drive home just fine. Or have it towed.
> What you save on battricide will *easily* pay for it.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
5HP/180lbs I could live with. It would move a loaded boat at faster
than trolling speed. Once and a while I *need* a little extra power
when going through a narrow (6-7' wide) culvert under a railroad when
the wind is blowing. Without some speed and strong directional control
a strong wind will whip the bow into the concrete sides of the tunnel.
Here is a pic of the boat in question. We usually only travel a few
miles with it.
http://michael.ellis.googlepages.com/boat
-Mike
On 8/31/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 2:19 AM
Subject: Re: A bit cleaner air on the lake today
> Mike Ellis wrote:
> > Ah.
> >
> > I misread one of your earlier discussions that mentioned 8HP and
> > thought that's what you were putting out. I see now that's not right.
> >
> > Any advice for getting about 180lbs thrust as inexpensively as possible?
> >
> > Mike
> > Hi EVerybody;
Gees! 180 lbs? That SHOULD move a displacment hull boat along just
fine?This afternoon I put my Sunfish Sailboat" Sailing Submarine" in LI
Sound, after restoring it. Wanted to get out on the water before it freezes
over! Lovely lite breeze, clipped along like a sailboat does. Youse sailing
folks know about that. Of couse they shut the wind off at night here, so I
was slowly sailing along in one place.#$%&! Embarrasing, but time and TIDE
wait for nobody!The nautical equivelent of being on a treadmill!A kindly
couple motored(engined) by and offered me a tow. Instead of a towline, he
pulled aside me, and I just held on, with one hand, as he towed me along
faster than I had sailed all afternoon, steering with the tiller/rudder, I
kept the two hulls apart, and just glided along. Thinking, boy, slower speed
boats just don't NEED alota "Push" or power to go! I'm taking a trolling
motor and dynisty 12 volt battery NEXT time, I can "Motor" in as needed,
dignity intact.
As A Netgain dealer I get calls all the time, guy wants to put a 9 or11
motor in a boat. Wants tp plane off, Maybe Waterski? and go 40 miles" Well,
the CARS go that far"Ya gotta let them down easy, isn't a motor issue, but
the batterys common people can buy, IS the issue.It's right up there with
the generator on the front wheel thing.
> > PS - Should this be on the electric boats list, or is this welcome here?
> >Yeah! Whatthehell it IS summer<g>!EV could mean Electric Vessel, too?
My two sails worth
Bob
>
> Have nooo idea on the second question, as for the first:
>
>
http://glen-l.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=14&sid=c8bab6201d6b8d52255f029b4cb960a7
> http://www.mindspring.com/~jimkerr1/sebc&t.htm
> http://www.psnw.com/~jmrudholm/etekoutboard.html
>
> And my favorite fishing boat conversion so far:
>
> http://www.bassfishingnetwork.com/articles/phelix.html
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/433 - Release Date: 8/30/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> a bit of a clarification in terms and features
OK; now I'm with you, Rich.
So the 'Zilla includes logic to perform the equivalent of shift blanking
during the series/parallel shift, but does not provide the sort of shift
blanking logic that the DCP did to kill power briefly during a
mechanical gear shift.
The DCP implementation may have been "crude", but its all that is
required, and should be dead simple to implement on the front 'Zilla in
GP: use a NO switch on the clutch pedal to short the throttle pot for
the front 'Zilla out from just before the clutch releases until just
after it fully re-engages (if the Zilla considers a dead short to be a
fault, include some small resistance in series).
>From the front 'Zilla's perspective this looks just like the pilot
lifting off the throttle for the few hundred mS duration of the shift,
and then putting the hammer back down, but has the advantage of not
messing with the throttle command to the rear 'Zilla, so the rear drives
keep pushing GP through the shift (just as the front drive pulls her
through the 500mS series/parallel shift while the rear drive is
offline).
> Real racers wouldn't bother with this...
> Amp heads would..because it's fun and gets some real attention.
I don't know about that; if the likes of you, Rod, and John aren't "real
racers" (as well as confirmed ampheads), I don't know who is.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another idea:
Since GP is hooking up off the line, have the first 1/3 of the go
pedal do 0 to max, and stay at max for the last 2/3, for the rear.
Have the front be zero first 2/3, and go 0 to max last 1/3. Then you
just lift the pedal 1/2 way to shift, or lift a bit if the front gets
too squirrely. You also get the safety feature that lifting the pedal
cuts power to all motors.
______
/
/ Proposed rear motor response to pedal
/
/
/ Proposed front motor response to pedal
______/
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> But, in any event, I described how trivial it would be to implement
> shift blanking on the front 'Zilla if the controller didn't offer
> the
> feature.
>
> --- Quoted anonymously:
> > What I want is full control of the Fronts with pedal control,
> > But have the back lock full on until brake is applied. That
> > way I Can play with clutch and throttle and amps and RPM shift
> > points while the Back just does it's thing.
>
> Sounds a bit like a death wish to me ;^>
>
> The problem you described initially was that lifting off the
> throttle to
> shift the front drive messes with the desired operation of the rear
> drive. A really basic shift blanking setup on the front drive
> would
> allow you to shift the front drive at any RPM you want without
> affecting
> the read drive operation since you would no longer have to lift
> your foot off the throttle to shift. ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The A123 are available now for RC from A123Racing.com. They have a
6.6V 4600mAh pack with a voltage booster to give a constant 7.2 or
8.4 volts. They claim 30C continuous and 60C burst. That is a 138
amps continuous and 276 Amps burst. A few of those could really move
a scooter. And at $99 each that is very close to the $80 a pack for
the IB4200s. I can see why they are using them in Bill's drag
bike. I would love to see what Dennis would do with a pack in the CE.
At 8/31/2006 04:38 AM, you wrote:
The newest hot one seems to be the IB4200. It is a Nimh C cell, only
68 grams. It can belt out 35 amps, and still be at the nominal 1.2
Volts! It has about 1/2 the internal resistance of the next best cell
(that I know about, anyway). Some guys on the web claim they can pull
200 Amps from these things! I saw a chart claiming you could pull 70
Amps for 2 minutes!
I got these specs from several web sites, nothing personally
verified. If you can believe the specs, they are not too far behind
A123 Lithium batteries. Costs I saw were about $9 / cell.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> My question to the list is, is it better to keep charging at
> 14.125 Vpb (Deka's min recomendation @ 80*F - 90*F) but
> increase the acceptance charge time appreciably? Or would it
> be better to go to 14.4 Vpb (Deka's max recomendation @ 80*F
> - 90*F) and keep the acceptance charge time at around an hour?
Do you have regs on your batteries?
If so, then you are probably safe extending the constant voltage time
since the regs will keep the individual batteries from sitting at an
unacceptably high voltage.
The recommendations I have in front of me from DEKA for their AGMs is:
- charge at <=30A/100Ah until 2.40-2.43V/cell @ 20C
- hold at 2.40-2.43V/cell until current drops by less than 0.1A over a
1hr period, or 12hr max. If the current exceeds 8A after dropping below
6A, stop immediately.
This regimen would be compatible with your PFC charger, since you cannot
perform a constant current finish step without manually re-adjusting the
voltage and current settings at the end of each charge. If you wanted
to perform the constant current finish, then DEKA's recommendations
change to:
- charge at <=30A/100Ah until 2.40-2.43V/cell @ 20C
- hold at 2.40-2.43V/cell until current is 1-2A/100Ah, or 12hr max. If
the current exceeds 8A after dropping below 6A, stop immediately.
- hold 1-2A/100Ah for 1-4hr based on Ah accumulated in the preceeding
phases (<25% of C/20Ah=1hr, 25%-50% of C/20Ah=2hr, >50% of C/20Ah=4hrs).
Stop if voltage exceeds 2.80V/cell.
In either case, compensate voltages by 0.005V/cell/degree C from 20C.
For 80F, 2.40-2.43V/cell shifts to 2.367-2.397V/cell or
14.202-14.382V/battery.
For 90F, 2.40-2.43V/cell shifts to 2.339-2.369V/cell or
14.034-14.214V/battery.
Are your batteries really still at 80-90F? I'm a fair bit south of you
(Vancouver, BC), and mine certainly aren't. Part of your range decrease
could be temperature related; I have noticed that my pack seems down a
bit from where it was in early August, and I suspect part of that is due
to the cooler temperatures we're experiencing now, especially at night.
The problem with how you've been charging is that when the charger hits
the voltage setpoint and your timer starts, the batteries are only about
80-90% charged. You need to hold the constant voltage long enough to
get them fully charged and to then return a bit more energy to keep the
cells equalised. You can't achive this by setting the timer to some
arbitrary value; you need to start off setting it to some very long time
(or disabling it), and timing how long it takes for the current to stop
dropping, or to drop to your target finish level if you go that route.
This then tells you the ballpark that you need to set the timer for.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You recommend that I don't go past 35 ah. I only went to 36ah. So
it's not a radical over use, yet. If I drove using my best economy
skills I bet I can hit 50 miles. Just makes for a long test.
These cells have what smells like Cosmolene on them. Is there
something like that that I can coat the nickel plated nuts and buss
bars with when I do the final install?
I need a tool for that funky nut!
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Tonight these cells on their first journey out took the USE truck 40
> >miles on 38ah at night, headlights and radio on, 66 degree ambient,
> >medium lead foot, 34-40mph in stop and go traffic with lots of stop
> >lights. Awesome first run! I think I can get 50 miles. So for a little
> >more weight the truck has well over doubled it's mileage on only 228
> >cells. There are 24 more going into the box, but they just arrived
> >today.
>
>
> I wouldn't ever plan on taking the truck over 40 miles again if I
were you.
> I have found that with the BB600's the first run is often the best
run.
> After all you just put in 50 - 60 ahrs in intitialization charge and
all the
> cells are balanced. Unlike lead, I think BB600 packs range decrease
after
> the first run as the cells capacities start to drift apart. With the
> stiffness of a the NiCad cells you will find it impossible to notice
that
> one or two cells have reversed as all the others cells will still be
> propping up the pack voltage.
>
> My cells are always good for 40 or more ahrs on their first run, but in
> daily use I find it unwise to count on more than 35 ahrs. I have
reversed
> cells several times on my motorcycle. Making that mistake is not
fatal as
> the reversed cells can be reinitialized and used again in the
future, but it
> is not good for them and unlikely that you can count on them for 40ahrs
> after they have been reversed. Plus it's a real hassle individually
> testing capacity on each individual cell to figure out which ones no
longer
> have the capacity you expect.
>
> If I were you I'd call 35 ahrs my limit. When you are going to go
that far
> be sure that you give plenty of overcharge, which increases the need
for
> watering of course :-)
>
> Damon
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
My cells are always good for 40 or more ahrs on their first run, but in
daily use I find it unwise to count on more than 35 ahrs. I have
reversed cells several times on my motorcycle. Making that mistake is
not fatal as the reversed cells can be reinitialized and used again in
the future, but it is not good for them and unlikely that you can count
on them for 40ahrs after they have been reversed. Plus it's a real
hassle individually testing capacity on each individual cell to figure
out which ones no longer have the capacity you expect.
Pretty much what I have seen with the E20; if you pack them chock-full
of charge they will do 40ah. However they will really bubble away, and
this increases the watering.
If you charge them to 30 or so they don't bubble much. Makes the water
last longer
However I do have a question about the reversal: I have used them in the
tractor for quite awhile, and I've found that when a cell "dies" the
string pretty much shuts down. As in the tractor crawls around *barely*
Can you drive with a reversed cell?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for your interest in the best donors EVer, Mark.
Of course I'm not biased, but IMHO, a Karmann Ghia is the best option if you
care about highway range. This came secondhand, but my figure for starting
weight was 1875 lb. The Thing has a curb weight of 1920 lb, per this link.
http://ww2.whidbey.net/jameslux/181spec.htm
The Ghia's smaller frontal area and slippery shape minimize drag, while the
fairly flat gas tank hole and large rear cargo area should make battery
installation simpler than a Bug. The Ghia's unibody construction is strong yet
flexible, to handle extra weight and soak up city streets without sagging or
squeaking, though I didn't like the idea of placing batteries all the way back
against the firewall, since the rear cargo area is partially cantilevered, and
may fold under if overstressed (though I imagine in a rear-ender, it would be
better for the rear pack to fold under instead of coming straight at your
back)...
A Thing starts off with stronger CV joints, and allows access from straight
above for most batteries, but I'd want some structural help for that cabrio
before adding much mass. Paul Gooch may be able to address this better, but
I've always been nervous about a glass kit car or dunebuggy EV, since the glass
body doesn't typically provide much structural help, and the VW pan would want
to 'butterfly' along the spine under battery weight. A Baja preserves the
Bug's essential structure while removing fender weight and adding ground
clearance. Very nice if you sink battery boxes into the pan, and it would climb
obstacles like nobody's business.
I squared off the Ghia pan beneath the rear seats in order to accomodate up to
ten Group 24 batteries there, and could've easily placed another six up front,
as I originally planned on a 192V pack. As it is now, I'm using filler blocks
to compensate for using 'only' 200 of the bb600 nicad cells.
http://karmanneclectric.blogspot.com/2005/11/battery-of-cells.html
Cheers,
Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
Hi,
=20
I was curious on which vehicle weight came out the lightest for a conve=
rsion. It looks like parts are still available for the Karman Ghia & not=
iced that one was recently converted. Does anyone know the start weight =
of a Ghia vs a Thing or a kit Bug? Or can recommend an easy kit bolt on?=
It looks like 14 batteries would fit in a VW Thing but appears difficul=
t in a Ghia.
=20
Thanks,
Mark
________________________________________________________________________
Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM.
All on demand. Always Free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for that info.
Let's do a cell-by-cell comparison.
A123: Lithium, 3.3 V, 2.3 Ahr, ~100 g, 69 Amps continuous, 138 Amp
burst, ~$25 (manufacturer numbers)
3 IB4200 cells: Nimh, 3.6 V, 4.2 Ahr, ~200 g, 70 Amps continuous, 200
Amp burst ~$27 (current measures from hobbyist reports, not the
manufacturer)
So on a power/$ basis cost is about the same. On a power/kg basis
Lithium wins. On an energy/$ basis Nimh is about 1/2 the cost. On an
energy/kg basis Lithium wins.
So if you are a drag racer, go for Lithium. If you want to maximize
range for a fixed budget then the Nimh wins.
So 3 main points:
I'm surprised Nimh could come even close to Lithium performance.
Watching the competition is exciting! It looks like there are 2
technology paths for super EV batteries for an eventually decent
price.
The hybrid cars are using Nimh... Tools, cameras, and phones seem
to be leaning towards Lithium... That's two commercial paths for the
chemistries to get economies of scale.
--- Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The A123 are available now for RC from A123Racing.com. They have a
>
> 6.6V 4600mAh pack with a voltage booster to give a constant 7.2 or
> 8.4 volts. They claim 30C continuous and 60C burst. That is a 138
>
> amps continuous and 276 Amps burst. A few of those could really
> move
> a scooter. And at $99 each that is very close to the $80 a pack
> for
> the IB4200s. I can see why they are using them in Bill's drag
> bike. I would love to see what Dennis would do with a pack in the
> CE.
__________________________________________________
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So after playing with the BB600's for awhile what I really think I need
is a 120 volt AC timer to control the charging.
The Dolphin charges at about 2.2ah and I can set the amount of time by
looking at the state of the E-meter. The question is who makes a good
hour clock charger that can turn on and off 15-20a @120 volts?
Chris
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Well, I no sooner got my pickup broken in and running great than another
project became available that I just couldn't pass up. Unfortunately, I live
under the jurisdiction of the spousal "Only one electric vehicle at a time"
rule, which means I have to let my Courier go. Details in the EVAlbum:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/812
Asking price is $7,900 obo, includes the Zilla Z1K and 13 UB121100 AGM
batteries with about 450 miles on them. It's listed on Craigslist SF; if
you're interested check out that listing and respond through Craigslist:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/car/201423361.html
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! MessengerÂ’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.
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--- Begin Message ---
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2006 17:00:42 -0700
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Has anyone any experience using the Solectria BC3kW Charger?
>
> Are these rebadged Brusa chargers, or actually made by Solectria?
They were copies of BRUSA NLG4 ones (licensed at the time production)
when Solectria existed.
I don't have the BC3kw (but rather the "Solectria BC3300" which really
is the Brusa NLG4 with a Solectria label stuck on top), but at least
by report the BC3kw is not an exact copy of the NLG4. It is supposed
to be faster at charging from 120VAC, for example. The NLG4 has
instantaneous current draw proportional to voltage, which means that
the power from 120 is 1/4 of that from 240. If the BC3kw does not have
this ratio it uses some different system inside.
Ken
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In a message dated 8/31/06 9:08:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Tech info for 48V GE motor on Surplus Center
Date: 8/31/06 9:08:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Jim Husted)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee had mentioned a decent GE motor in an earlier post that was going
for cheap at Surplus Supply. In the reply tree, Mark McCurdy mentioned
a different motor (10-1422). I took the model # from Surplus Center and
sent it to GE tech support.
* I re-formatted the text a bit, as it was two specifications per line,
and hard to read. I might have put something on the next line that
belongs on the previous.
* Class H Insulation =)
* I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the brushes listed:
"BRUSH-T300 2(1.125 X .50)" Are these Good, Bad, Ugly?
Hey all
These are a really good brush for forklift use, they are also fairly
spendy to buy. I believe they would work well EVen at the higher voltage and
current EV's are using. These are what I call a speckeled brush grade with
different materials embeded in the base material.. Something kinda like the
layered
brush thread but with smaller crushed and mixed speckels. I really don't know
the exact materials used but it is the premier brush to install in these
bigger GE motors as oppossed to the cheap after market brushes a lot of places
sell. Anyway thats the poop from this end, and what I know about them.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric >>
***The T300 brush have a low contact drop.Its a electrographic base but with
treatments for high heat and low humidity.Its general use is motor/generators
up to 80 volts. Dennis Berube
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--- Begin Message ---
Mike: why don't you send that photo of the bat's to www.mcmaster.com
and ask if they can ID it . they have answered a lot of ? on tapping
stainless for me.
Joe in Cincy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mark McCurdy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
> I could I guess. I'm hoping to find the right tool. I could mill a
> socket with 5 legs on it I suppose.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > could you weld a couple of ball bearings into an oversized socket
> for those
> > nuts?
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 1:03 AM
> > Subject: BB600 odd nuts + 40 miles on first run!
> >
> >
> > > The BB600 packs I got are 19 to a box. The box is something special,
> > > but the nuts that hold the buss bars in place are not one I've seen
> > > before. Here is a link. Please tell me what that nut it is so I
> can get
> > > a socket for it.
> > >
> > > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nuts2.jpg
> > >
> > > These BB600 cells are also different in that the normal 10-32 screws
> > > have been replaced with a 10-32 to 3/8" stud-standoff. You can see it
> > > under the buss bar. Maybe for higher current. The buss bars and nuts
> > > are covered with Cosmolene. So that's why they have a brown tint to
> > > them.
> > >
> > > Tonight these cells on their first journey out took the USE truck 40
> > > miles on 38ah at night, headlights and radio on, 66 degree ambient,
> > > medium lead foot, 34-40mph in stop and go traffic with lots of stop
> > > lights. Awesome first run! I think I can get 50 miles. So for a little
> > > more weight the truck has well over doubled it's mileage on only 228
> > > cells. There are 24 more going into the box, but they just arrived
> > > today.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Those are some weird nuts. Closest thing I could think of is that
they're close to being a spanner nut or a tri groove nut.
Then I found this:
http://www.securityfasteners.net/kinmar%20permanent%20security%20bolts%20and%20nuts.htm
Take a look at the "Re-usable nut" picture on the left side. Very
similar, but not exact.
Mike Phillips wrote:
The BB600 packs I got are 19 to a box. The box is something special,
but the nuts that hold the buss bars in place are not one I've seen
before. Here is a link. Please tell me what that nut it is so I can get
a socket for it.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/nuts2.jpg
These BB600 cells are also different in that the normal 10-32 screws
have been replaced with a 10-32 to 3/8" stud-standoff. You can see it
under the buss bar. Maybe for higher current. The buss bars and nuts
are covered with Cosmolene. So that's why they have a brown tint to
them.
Tonight these cells on their first journey out took the USE truck 40
miles on 38ah at night, headlights and radio on, 66 degree ambient,
medium lead foot, 34-40mph in stop and go traffic with lots of stop
lights. Awesome first run! I think I can get 50 miles. So for a little
more weight the truck has well over doubled it's mileage on only 228
cells. There are 24 more going into the box, but they just arrived
today.
Mike
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Thanks Roger,
I suppose my voltages are right in the range then for my temps. I need to go
ahead and install the shunt in my charge path so I can watch and log some
cycles. Always more details :-) but its better than changing oil. Maybe I can
get that done before tonights charge.
I am using the Powercheq 's so, as you mentioned, I should be OK running with
the timer off to characterize the charge curve.
My batteries have been between 80*F - 90*F pretty much continually. There were
several warm days last month that bumped them up to 100*F while driving so I
propped my battery box open to cool them a bit. Eventually I'll get a vent fan
and thermostat installed on the box. I have 2" high density polystyrene foam
in the walls and floor of the box (R5 per inch). Right now I've left the
insulation out of the lid so as not to overheat them in the summer. Once
winter come's I'll put the insulation in the top. From my back of napkin calcs
I should be able to have them leave the heated garage, after charging, at 90*F,
sit out in 0*F weather for 10 hours and get back home at 75*F. This doesn't
take into account heat added during the drive home. So far just the side and
floor instulation keeps the temperature drop to only ~4*F - 6*F sitting out in
50 *F ambient. Adding insulation in the lid should keep them nice and cozy
during the winter.
Mike,
> For 80F, 2.40-2.43V/cell shifts to 2.367-2.397V/cell or
> 14.202-14.382V/battery.
> For 90F, 2.40-2.43V/cell shifts to 2.339-2.369V/cell or
> 14.034-14.214V/battery.
> snip a bit<
> You need to hold the constant voltage long enough to
> get them fully charged and to then return a bit more energy to
> keep the
> cells equalised. You can't achive this by setting the timer to some
> arbitrary value; you need to start off setting it to some very
> long time
> (or disabling it), and timing how long it takes for the current to
> stop dropping, or to drop to your target finish level if you go
> that route.
> This then tells you the ballpark that you need to set the timer for.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Roger.
>
>
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Definitely. I've also reversed cells a few times while doing discharge
testing on a string of cells. The current keeps flowing.
Perhaps it is the controller that makes the difference. My Alltrax with
work down to around something like 16 volts. I never set the low voltage
limit, because I want the ability to make the choice while I am riding
whether to abuse my batteries or not. I don't want the controller making
the decision for me.
Can you drive with a reversed cell?
Chris
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I use an Intermatic digital count down timer, but if I had it to do all over
again I would use a mechanical one instead. I find the digital one too much
trouble to change the time on and it relies on a battery. If the battery
goes dead the solenoid does not open and it becomes a non-timer :-(
damon
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Timer for charging
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2006 16:08:56 -0400
So after playing with the BB600's for awhile what I really think I need is
a 120 volt AC timer to control the charging.
The Dolphin charges at about 2.2ah and I can set the amount of time by
looking at the state of the E-meter. The question is who makes a good hour
clock charger that can turn on and off 15-20a @120 volts?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like Zap (or one of their dealers) is clearing out cars again.
They did this with the original few they imported. From the couple folks
I've talked w/ that bought... 40MPG is actual mileage, in town or out.
(Higher with the diesel engine.) That's, at least, better than the 30MPG
for the best cars currently selling in the US, IMHO.
> It's rated to get only 40mpg from a 700cc engine? Doesn't sound very
> aerodynamic:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160024644297
>
> Needs that ICE crap yanked out and a little EV-ing instead!
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 31, 2006, at 11:04 AM, Mark E. Hanson wrote:
Hi,
I was curious on which vehicle weight came out the lightest for a
conversion. It looks like parts are still available for the Karman
Ghia & noticed that one was recently converted.
There are a number of Karmann Ghia conversions I'm aware of (including
mine, still in progress). Check the EV Album for a nice list of them.
Jay Donnaway is also converting one - pictures at
<http://www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com/>.
Parts are available for almost all of the aircooled VWs. Some
years/models were rare but there are usually aftermarket or workaround
solutions. Check out www.cip1.com for an example of where to get
parts.
Bugs outnumber the rest of the aircooled VWs at least 20 to 1, so they
always win on parts availability (and therefore price). Too bad
they're so ugly, eh? :)
Does anyone know the start weight of a Ghia vs a Thing or a kit Bug?
Once again, Google makes me look smart.
This site has info on many models and years of various VWs:
<http://www.conceptcarz.com/view/model/160/model.aspx>
Sadly, the entries for the Thing don't include its weight. Here's a
site that does: <http://www.thething.org/specs.html>
You didn't mention the VW Bus. Bad aero, but large volume and carrying
capacity should get you great range, or a useful hauling vehicle.
Again, examples on the EV Album.
And as Jerry Dycus keeps saying, a VW kit car could make a good
conversion (like the Bradley GT). Use the pan and running gear from a
Bug, throw away the body, and bolt on a fiberglass sports-car
replacement. There used to be a zillion of these. I'd look, but
Google can't fix my laziness like it can fix my ignorance :) Weights
and battery space will vary with the different kits.
Or can recommend an easy kit bolt on? It looks like 14 batteries
would fit in a VW Thing but appears difficult in a Ghia.
Kaylor used to sell bolt-on kits for aircooled VWs. Don't know if they
still do.
Electro Auto sells adapters and generic kits - you'd have to do your
own battery boxes. The adapter is very nice - highly recommended. EV
Parts carries adapters too. And Jay Donnaway has a collection of
adapters that I tease him about constantly - he might be willing to
part with one. It would be a first step on the road to his recovery :)
I had absolutely no problem fitting 16 Orbitals into my Ghia, although
I found that I needed to add air shocks to bring the ride height back
up.
I put eight in the luggage compartment behind the rear seat, and eight
up front where the gas tank used to be. Ideally they'd be lower, but
this way I didn't need to do any serious mods to the car. The
batteries just bolted down to flat shelves, front and rear.
Warning: I haven't driven it yet so I can't comment on how well this is
going to work.
Again, check out the EV Album for an overview of other ways to stuff
them full of batteries. And check out Jay's custom metal work on the
chassis that will let him really load up on NiCad BB600 cells.
BTW, the KG convertibles have less room for batteries, plus they're
both heavier and weaker. More expensive too.
Thanks,
Mark
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
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--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> I am using the Powercheq 's so, as you mentioned, I should be
> OK running with the timer off to characterize the charge curve.
I'm not so sure. How much current can they shuttle around?
My understanding is that the Powercheqs don't move much current at all,
so they may not be able to shuttle current quickly enough to keep module
voltages in line.
On the other hand, they run 24/7, and it may be that if they have the
batteries well-balanced to start with, then the module voltages will
remain well-behaved during absorption... you will have to get out the
DMM and check module voltages while waiting for the current to taper in
order to determine what the situation really is.
> I have 2" high density polystyrene foam in the walls and
> floor of the box (R5 per inch).
OK; that's the difference; mine are essentially uninsulated.
Cheers,
Roger.
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