EV Digest 5833
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Battery selection
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Cheap way to commute - BEVOB hits the local news
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Worm and Sector Steering
by "Mark Metcalf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: NmG dealership in Texas!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Trike "motorcycle"
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Trike "motorcycle"
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) eGO-2 hires back Kevin K.!!!!!!!!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Batteries (8 volt vs 6 volt)- again / UCaps oops
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Trike 'motorcycle'
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) A Few EV Ideas, WAS Re: Creation of EVCC, aka the Electric Vehicle
Certification Committee
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Soccer Mom Mobile
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: Worm and Sector Steering
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Creation of EVCC / $15K electric car dream oops
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
See if I understand. The 8v pack will produce less
torque at a higher rpm because of allowing fewer amps.
Wouldn't this mean poorer acceleration? The 8v pack
will allow higher top rpms which would translate to
higher top speed (assuming the gear ratio allows it.)
Or, I can use the higher rpm to make use of lower
gears to make up for the lower torque.
I would figure that 60 mph is as fast as I would want
to drive a Samurai if the driving characteristics are
what I expect. I've never driven a Samurai, but I do
have a 46 Jeep which has a similar suspension. I
suppose I should figure the motor speed at various
gear/speed combinations.
Several have suggested that 5000 rpm is a reasonable
red line for the 9"ADC but it looks like that won't be
an issue with the clutch engaged.
>From your last comment, " I'd prefer to use 6v GC lead
but I think your EV will work better with the motor
you have using 8v GC lead." Perhaps I should go back
to considering 12V to get up to the 144V controller
limit? This would reduce range but would the
drivability be enhanced?
In going thru the archives I found this from Lee Hart:
My Corvan was only around 2500 lbs, I think. What
kind of batteries are in it? Sixteen 6v golf cart
batteries would weigh
around 1000 lbs. Eliminating the gasoline motor and
associated debris
should save around 300 lbs; 2500 - 300 + 1000 is only
3200 lbs.
But I agree; 96v on an ADC 9" motor in a 3200 lbs
vehicle is going to be
sluggish.
> will boosting the pack by 24V give me that much of a
boost?
Yes, it would be quite noticeable!
> >
This doesn't jibe with the answer he gave me which
seemed to be that the 6v was the rational choice. I
figure the Suzuki will be right around 2000 pounds
plus 1000 pounds of batteries, and I don't want
"sluggish".
I am looking to those who have some experience for
guidance. Since I have no experience actually driving
an EV, I am not capable of determining the effect of
varying the voltage on drivability. Is going from 96v
to 128 going to be a "slight improvement" or "night
vs. day". I have no way of judging. (If I had driven
an EV I still would have no way of judging.) The
expedient of trying various packs in my vehicle would
give me my answer, but that would seem difficult to
do. I suppose I could get 10 12v batteries and try the
car using 8 or 9 or all 10, and adjusting my maximum
amp draw appropriately and ignoring the range
implications. I would have to add extra weight also to
represent the 6 or 8v packs. I was hoping for some
input to compensate for my ignorance.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul G.
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 11:44 PM
To: Storm Connors
Subject: Re: EV
Hi Storm,
I can make some (semi) intelligent comments now :-)
You are right about the plates in these batteries.
Most makers of GC
batteries use the same plates, even the same number of
plates, in their
6v and 8v batteries. So both packs would get you the
same number of
storage plates in your EV. The range will be similar
with either pack.
Because the 8v batteries have less plates per cell
(same number per
battery) the 8v batteries will be less able to provide
current (more
voltage sag at any given current.) You basically get
4/3rds the voltage
and 3/4ths the amps (same power.) If you run the DCP
controller at full
amps with either pack the 8v will make more power and
more often give
you some "not nice" pack voltages when you demand the
power. If you set
the current down to 400 amps for the 6v batteries and
300 amps for the
8v batteries you will have the same power with either
configuration
(and similar voltage per cell at full amps.) This is a
pretty happy amp
level for GC lead.
The ADC 9 inch motor makes more torque per amp but
less rpm per volt
compared to the smaller ADC 8 inch motor. For example,
at 400 amps the
9 makes 88 ft/lb. of torque while the 8 inch (and the
Prestolite motors
I've used) make 64 ft/lb. of torque.
Lets look at approximate numbers for peak power on the
ADC 9" with a
128v system at 300 amps and a 96v system at 400 amps:
128v system has 38.3 HP at 3475 rpm (58 ft/lb. of
torque.)
96v system has 38.3 HP at 2285 rpm (88 ft/lb. of
torque.)
The motor will likely make useable power up to about
140% of the peak
power. That 9 inch will get sleepy over around 3200
rpm in a 96v
system. I'd prefer to use 6v GC lead but I think your
EV will work
better with the motor you have using 8v GC lead.
HTH,
Paul "neon" Gooch
On Aug 31, 2006, at 10:41 AM, Storm Connors wrote:
> You've stated my question quite clearly. I can
install 16 batteries in
> the
> Suzuki. 16 8v at 128v, or 16 6v at 96v. The weight,
plate thickness
> and I
> believe number of plates are the same. I assume the
higher voltage
> would
> yield better accelleration and top speed. The
amperage would be less
> under
> the same load. I would expect the life expectancy on
the 8v would be
> less.
> My question, is it a noticable difference while
driving?
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The one thing about USE trucks is the batt box is incredible. It can
hold around 1800 lbs of batts. Right now 252 cells weight not even
half that. I need to weigh a couple of these cells.
The walls and bottom of the box are 1/4 or 3/8 aluminum. The thing is
entirely welded together. I was lucky that mine was painted black
inside and out before it was installed into the truck. There is 2' x
3' section that you cannot see that extends under the cab. But it's
only 7" high, so these cells would not fit.
240 lbs per box is like a fairly large man sitting in there. But with
battery's the weight is distributed evenly over the floor.
I'm really glad that Chris did this before I did. He figured out the
pattern that made so many of these cells fit. It was alot of work
doing this knowing how they went in, much less having to figure it out.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Holy $#!+, that's a lot of cells in one place. Could you describe
the battery box. I have two
> battery boxes in the back with 72 cells in each, almost 240 pounds
per box. I'm concerned about
> the structures ability to handle the weight. I'm no engineer and
I've been fretting over how
> strong the boxes need to be. One good bump and half the cells go out
the bottom?
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Here is a pic of the nicads before they get bussbars. The closest
group
> > still needs the last 3 put in, but half of them are coming out so
I can
> > put the reinforcements in for that side, and the lexan sides as well.
> >
> > It looks like some of the bussbars need to get machined a bit to open
> > up the hole spacing for the side to side cells. So then they need
to be
> > replated.
> >
> > 252!
> >
> > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Nicadssmall.jpg
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I experimented with the charging cycles and think that since the truck
can only put in 6-7 amps into the pack during constant current
charging and about 1-2 amps during constant voltage, that if I keep
the voltage right at 1.5vpc or less that the boiling is kept to a
minimum. This is what I watched occur on the bench. During the
initialization of the cells up to 1.67vpc I could actually here them
sqeeking thru their vents every now and then because they were boiling
so badly. So if they don't vent, they should not need alot of watering.
After weighing and watering each and every battery in a pack of 104
Hawkers, I think these nicads will be easier. See, each Hawker had 6
cells to water times 104 is 624 cells!!. So only 252 is a cake walk! I
became very proficient on the hawkers. These Nicads have a nice little
cap that was actually designed to come off, unlike the lid of the Hawkers.
Veteranary syringes make great watering tools. I bet I can water those
cells in less than 2 hours.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> oh my god ! i was thinking 31 cell pack is a pain...
>
> repeat after me:
>
> i like watering my cells, i like watering my cells, i like watering...
>
> Philippe
>
> ---------- Initial Header -----------
>
> >From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc :
> Date : Wed, 6 Sep 2006 05:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject : Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
>
> Holy $#!+, that's a lot of cells in one place. Could you describe
the battery box. I have two
> battery boxes in the back with 72 cells in each, almost 240 pounds
per box. I'm concerned about
> the structures ability to handle the weight. I'm no engineer and
I've been fretting over how
> strong the boxes need to be. One good bump and half the cells go out
the bottom?
>
> Dave Cover
>
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Here is a pic of the nicads before they get bussbars. The closest
group
> > still needs the last 3 put in, but half of them are coming out so
I can
> > put the reinforcements in for that side, and the lexan sides as well.
> >
> > It looks like some of the bussbars need to get machined a bit to open
> > up the hole spacing for the side to side cells. So then they need
to be
> > replated.
> >
> > 252!
> >
> > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Nicadssmall.jpg
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
> Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité
Enfants, le contrôle parental d'Alice.
> http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our local BBC station has done the first of a series of features
about EVs and Ebikes
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/image_galleries/
electric_vehicles_gallery.shtml?9
Our second meet was a great success and the photos can be found here:
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=BEVOB&m=tags&page=1
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ev Performance (Robert Chew) wrote:
Yep, recirculating ball.
On 06/09/06, Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got a 1981 toyota hilux with a worm and sector steering box. its a
diesel
> running on veggie oil. Its a pain to steer even with the tyres
pumped up
> hard. do these boxes need lubrication, if so, where abouts can i add
some?
>
What is "worm and sector" steering? I've only heard of rack-and-pinion
and recirculating ball.
Just being wordy. You have a 'steering box' (aka steering gear) or a 'rack'.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would also be nice if we could come up with a standard dimension for a
watering bottle. The
kind that you stick the snout into the cell and it fills it to the right depth.
--- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I experimented with the charging cycles and think that since the truck
> can only put in 6-7 amps into the pack during constant current
> charging and about 1-2 amps during constant voltage, that if I keep
> the voltage right at 1.5vpc or less that the boiling is kept to a
> minimum. This is what I watched occur on the bench. During the
> initialization of the cells up to 1.67vpc I could actually here them
> sqeeking thru their vents every now and then because they were boiling
> so badly. So if they don't vent, they should not need alot of watering.
>
> After weighing and watering each and every battery in a pack of 104
> Hawkers, I think these nicads will be easier. See, each Hawker had 6
> cells to water times 104 is 624 cells!!. So only 252 is a cake walk! I
> became very proficient on the hawkers. These Nicads have a nice little
> cap that was actually designed to come off, unlike the lid of the Hawkers.
>
> Veteranary syringes make great watering tools. I bet I can water those
> cells in less than 2 hours.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > oh my god ! i was thinking 31 cell pack is a pain...
> >
> > repeat after me:
> >
> > i like watering my cells, i like watering my cells, i like watering...
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > ---------- Initial Header -----------
> >
> > >From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc :
> > Date : Wed, 6 Sep 2006 05:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > Subject : Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> >
> > Holy $#!+, that's a lot of cells in one place. Could you describe
> the battery box. I have two
> > battery boxes in the back with 72 cells in each, almost 240 pounds
> per box. I'm concerned about
> > the structures ability to handle the weight. I'm no engineer and
> I've been fretting over how
> > strong the boxes need to be. One good bump and half the cells go out
> the bottom?
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> > --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Here is a pic of the nicads before they get bussbars. The closest
> group
> > > still needs the last 3 put in, but half of them are coming out so
> I can
> > > put the reinforcements in for that side, and the lexan sides as well.
> > >
> > > It looks like some of the bussbars need to get machined a bit to open
> > > up the hole spacing for the side to side cells. So then they need
> to be
> > > replated.
> > >
> > > 252!
> > >
> > > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Nicadssmall.jpg
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
> > Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité
> Enfants, le contrôle parental d'Alice.
> > http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: RE: NmG dealership in Texas!
> I can answer to that:
> on their shoes, i would get a look at FreedomEV :^)
>
> Philippe
>
> ---------- Initial Header -----------
>
> >From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To : <[email protected]>
> Cc :
> Date : Tue, 5 Sep 2006 21:54:41 -0700
> Subject : RE: NmG dealership in Texas!
>
> The current production run was scheduled to be 36 vehicles, since they
> got roughly 68 chassis from the Corbin fire sale. The tools, dies,
> jigs, molds etc. that Corbin used have been destroyed. So Myers would
> need to reverse-engineer the entire car if they wanted to duplicate it
> in large quantities. And, if I were them, I would want to make a bunch
> of changes to the Sparrow design. (So did Corbin, incidentally. They
> had stopped the Sparrow run and they were redesigning, planning a car
> called the Sparrow II.) So Myers has a big project in front of them.
>
> The last time I talked to Dana Myers, about three months ago, I asked
> him what his business plan was going to be after he sold all of the
> Sparrow chassis he has in stock. He dodged my question, asking me what
> I would do if I were in his shoes.
>
> - Jake Oshins.
>
> Hi EVerybody;
Gees! When I visited the Myers Factory over a year ago, they were busily
engaged in designing a NEW Sparrow. Had a lot of chassis and stuff on the
hugh factory floor, place used to be a transformer rebuild place.I THOUGH
they were gunna do a upgraded Sparrow and a yet unnamed Two seater?Maybe as
Phillipe sez, look into a Freedom EV deal?
My two seats worth.
Bob Freedom EV, a Sparrow done Right.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would highly expect it to be similar to these..
http://www.coolcustomcars.com/trikesforsale.html
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of keith vansickle
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 8:59 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Trike "motorcycle"
>
> do either of you know if this is going to be a two front or two rear???
> thanks
>
> --- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At 06:27 PM 5/09/06 -0400, Dennis Berube wrote:
> >
> > >*** Harley just annonced they will be building a
> > trike soon. Dennis Berube
> >
> > G'day Dennis
> >
> > This shows how small the world is getting - four of the people up at
> > my local Harley dealer here in Tasmania, Australia have rushed out
and
> > bought shares in the company that is joint-building the trikes with
> > Harley!
> >
> > (I think it'll be a while before I could afford to buy one of their
> > trikes, let alone get one and convert it!)
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > [Technik] James
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well the first is that trikes with the single wheel in the front are unstable.
Better to have the third wheel in the rear. CG should be roughly at the center
of the machine.
-Ralph
On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:03:09 +1000
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> G'day All
>
> After a work job yesterday at the local Harley Davidson workshop (diagnose
> a fault on a dyno) discussion turned to an EV trike, fully custom built
> chassis (here in Aus, trikes can be ridden with a car license).
>
> How practical this is remains to be seen, but so far the discussion has run
> along as far as:
>
> Independant rear suspension and wheels/etc from a Subaru or similar,
> narrowed down/shorten the axles (don't know if that's possible yet).
>
> Set up two small motors (say 6" diameter, 10" long 24V ex forklift motors)
> in a similar way to Gone Postals' rear end, except using belts and putting
> the motors on top of the axle assembly.
>
> Batteries along the bottom of a custom chassis, from just in front of the
> back axle through to as close to the front wheel, side by side, all in a
> single block. maybe 72V.
>
> Front wheel, forks, steering, brakes etc from a larger bike, Kawasaki, BMW,
> whatever. grafted onto the custom chassis.
>
> Control gear in the vicinity of the motors, in front or behind. Charger
> where a petrol tank would usually reside, probably with a cover made from
> an old petrol tank.
>
> Body styling perhaps reminiscent of the Harley Davidson Servi-car or
> similar trike of pre or post WW2 era.
>
> Comments, abuse, flames all welcome
>
> regards
>
> [Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the escooter list:
> Good news at last! eGO Vehicles LCC. has hired Kevin K., former
> eGO-Vehicles Inc. cutomer relations/service man.
>
> All the recent (actually, over a year!) waiting for parts and
> non-assistance from eGO customer relations is about to be history!
> Kevin knows the eGO-2 and their customer base like no one else on the
> planet.
>
> One can only hope that eGO will return to the forefront of the PEV
> manufacturers and rekindle the smile in all the many eGO-2 users.
>
> Kevin left his day job and returns to eGO Vehicles full -time in 2 weeks.
>
> Congratulations to Kevin K. and eGO-2. This is the best news we could
> have and the best decision they could possibly make.
>
> Stay tuned for more news!
>
>
> dsalley13 / NtB/DinC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Mike,
Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate a high
conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
*nod* This is kind of tricky; copper buss bars will literally melt if
you leave them in with these batteries. After 3 weeks, zinc plated lugs
disintegrated and the copper wires were green goo.
All of the interconnects in my truck are nickel plated. This might
explain the bit of a voltage sag; I drop about 25 volts out of 300 total
when I floor it to 200a. Still, I can deal with that.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
Holy $#!+, that's a lot of cells in one place. Could you describe the battery
box. I have two
battery boxes in the back with 72 cells in each, almost 240 pounds per box. I'm
concerned about
the structures ability to handle the weight. I'm no engineer and I've been
fretting over how
strong the boxes need to be. One good bump and half the cells go out the bottom?
The NiCD pack is actually about a thousand pounds lighter than the
hawker pack it replaces. This can cause some problems with the truck
being a bit tail light; I have ABS but I would recommend people consider
getting the springs checked.
This box is *very* beefy. AL construction, attached to the frame at 6
points, it's not going anywhere.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
oh my god ! i was thinking 31 cell pack is a pain...
repeat after me:
i like watering my cells, i like watering my cells, i like watering...
That's what I have too Phillipe. Haven't pulled the deck to water yet,
but it took me about 30 minutes last time I did it. The trick is to
clear off the battery tops, charge till full, then pull rows of tops and
follow with the baster full of water.
The biggest pain is wearing safety glasses. Oh by the way, wear safety
glasses when working on BB600's. I sprayed my face with KAOH, had
glasses, still had to grab the vinegar (ahhhh OW) then the baking soda
(aaahh) one after the other.
How often did you have to water the cells?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All of the interconnects in my truck are nickel plated. This might
> explain the bit of a voltage sag; I drop about 25 volts out of 300 total
> when I floor it to 200a. Still, I can deal with that.
I wonder what the difference would be without the nickel plating? Maybe there
isn't that much of a
difference? The nickel is a necessary piece of the puzzle, no good way around
it.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it depends on how long you want it to be "peppy" for. If you can
live with replacing batteries every 6 months, then go for it.
8V batteries don't live long if you expect to draw more than about 250
amps from them on a regular basis. As I recall the 6V batteries can dish
out about 350-400 amps before running into the same life expectancy
problems.
So yes, the 8V batteries weigh less, but they are also less powerful. The
net result will be (if you expect a similar life span) similar performance
with less range.
If you want "peppy" spend the extra bucks on AGM batteries and some kind
of battery regulators/ballancers. 16 Optima YTs, or Excide Orbitals, in
buddy pairs will weigh about 720lbs(or less with orbitals) and give you
96V that can handle 1000 amps (or more) without breaking a sweat, or a
192V conversion using a single string.
I'm not even going to go into the numerous problems with trying to use
ultra-caps, but the AGMs will give you similar advantages without the
problems.
As for regen, if you really want it, go for an AC drive system. They work
MUCH better than any of the currently available DC regen systems and the
final cost will be about the same. Running a 192V AC system in a light
car should have pretty decent performance. Or use 20 or so Orbitals/YTs
and have a >240V AC conversion with plenty of power and range
>
> yes, I've been considering a 96 volt system in a lightweight vehicle. 96
> volts with 16 x 6 volt GC
> batteries is reputed to give top speed of 70 mph, range of 65 miles
> (http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/metro.shtml geo metro conversion)
> though
> I wonder if
> going to 8 volt batteries, saving (16 x ~60 lbs = 960 lbs - 12 x ~60 lbs
> =
> 720 lbs => 240 lbs.
> difference might give a little peppier / less 'lead sled' ish kind of
> performance (albeit at somewhat of a range hit).
> I also wonder about using a layer of 15 volt ultracap packs with such
> a setup to peak shave as well as give some extra oomph (have got to
> figure
> out how to implement
> such, it needs a separate dc-dc converter I think, 15 volt ucap packs are
> something like $130 ($160 for 'power' vs. $130 for 'energy' ones,
> I suppose either may be ok); maybe it also needs some sort of
> microcontroller control for integrating separate power sources. An
> interesting engineering project I suppose. (It looks like Viktor T. was
> going to use them from his webpage, but haven't heard
> any update on that). The ucap specs mention they can give 1500 Amps,
> charge
> in just seconds (maybe a good case for using regen - put it all into the
> UCaps, or from other UCap lit., just have the battery trickle charge the
> UCaps).
> I've looked at the "Regen with a DC controller" book you can get from KTA
> services, though it sounds like people tend to blow up controllers when
> they do that, so I'm not sure ...
>
> Seth Myers
> Akron, Ohio
>
> (related to/invested in Myers Motors (www.myersmotors.com) , looking to do
> some
> conversions, maybe start an ev club out here in the square old, less
> hip-than-CA (but we do have Sparrows, er, 'NmG's') midwest)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:50 PM
>> > Subject: Re: Batteries- again
>> >
>> >
>> > > On 5 Sep 2006 at 11:56, Storm Connors wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > It seems strange that the 8v were created since it is
>> > > > my understanding that they wanted to put more voltage
>> > > > in the existing 6v battery space. If this has only
>> > > > negative effects, why did they do it?
>> > >
>> > > >From what I've heard, they did it because golf car manufacturers
> wanted
>> a
>> > > quick and dirty way to improve top speed and acceleration. This way
>> they
>> > > could get it with only minimal changes to the controller and none to
> the
>> > > battery box.
>> > >
>> > > I don't think they were too concerned with the reduced lifespan.
>> > >
>> > > FWIW, in road EV applications, 8v golf car batteries are a little
>> shorter
>> > > lived than 6v, but quite a bit longer lived than 12v marine
>> batteries
>> such
>> > > as group 27 type.
>> > >
>> > > EV performance (of all types) is so dependent on batteries that the
>> right
>> > > way to go is to figure out what batteries you want and need, then
> design
>> a
>> > > drive system to use those batteries. When you decide what your
>> motor
>> and
>> > > controller will be first, then decide what performance you want,
>> then
>> > figure
>> > > out what batteries you need, you are designing backwards. You are
>> locking
>> > > yourself into a battery that may appreciably raise your operating
> costs.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> > > EV List Assistant Administrator
>> > >
>> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
>> > > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> > > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
>> > > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
>> > > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
>> > > ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
>> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> > >
>> >
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, if it's designed properly, single front wheels can be just as
stable as dual front wheel trikes.
The main difference is that single front wheels destabilize when braking
and dual front wheels destabilize when accelerating. However, designed
properly, you can make it so that either vehicle remains stable up to the
point where the wheels slide. I.e. it will skid before the CoG moves
enough to flip the vehicle.
Designed poorly, either vehicle can have problems with flipping.
Dual front wheels tend to be easier to design for performance, but usually
don't have much cargo handling capabilty. Single front wheels are easier
to design for hualing cargo.
> Well the first is that trikes with the single wheel in the front are
> unstable. Better to have the third wheel in the rear. CG should be roughly
> at the center of the machine.
>
> -Ralph
>
>
> On Wed, 06 Sep 2006 08:03:09 +1000
> James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> G'day All
>>
>> After a work job yesterday at the local Harley Davidson workshop
>> (diagnose
>> a fault on a dyno) discussion turned to an EV trike, fully custom built
>> chassis (here in Aus, trikes can be ridden with a car license).
>>
>> How practical this is remains to be seen, but so far the discussion has
>> run
>> along as far as:
>>
>> Independant rear suspension and wheels/etc from a Subaru or similar,
>> narrowed down/shorten the axles (don't know if that's possible yet).
>>
>> Set up two small motors (say 6" diameter, 10" long 24V ex forklift
>> motors)
>> in a similar way to Gone Postals' rear end, except using belts and
>> putting
>> the motors on top of the axle assembly.
>>
>> Batteries along the bottom of a custom chassis, from just in front of
>> the
>> back axle through to as close to the front wheel, side by side, all in a
>> single block. maybe 72V.
>>
>> Front wheel, forks, steering, brakes etc from a larger bike, Kawasaki,
>> BMW,
>> whatever. grafted onto the custom chassis.
>>
>> Control gear in the vicinity of the motors, in front or behind. Charger
>> where a petrol tank would usually reside, probably with a cover made
>> from
>> an old petrol tank.
>>
>> Body styling perhaps reminiscent of the Harley Davidson Servi-car or
>> similar trike of pre or post WW2 era.
>>
>> Comments, abuse, flames all welcome
>>
>> regards
>>
>> [Technik] James
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Were putting the cart before the horse on this one. Sheri makes some darn
good points, below. If we get too carried away in "Standards" Seals and
stuff we get lost as to a point. Sorta like herding cats!EV's with
affordable batteries has to be a personal thing, anyhow. Or what fits your
need. J. Wayland would be pretty unhappy with my 90 volt Sentra. I woulda
found the Zombie a fun commuter car IF it woulda made the Range I needed to
get to work AND home.So it would be hard to standardize EV's Whatthehell? We
can't EVen come up with a standard universal one-size-fits-all charging
setup. Personnaly I don't see WHAT is wrong with a standard 120 volt OUTLET
like you have all over the house?Only OUTDOORS where yur EV is likely to
park. 100 foot 'stench chords get old pretty fast!
Yesterday, I went out to lunch with my cousen, to Constantine's
Restaurant in Niantic,CT a very popular spot right on the shoreline"Niantic
by the Atlantic" the sign sez when ya drive into town..Shameless plug here;
theie 10 bux lunch menu is really good! And watch the Acelas fly by, too! We
had lunch and chatted up the Owner. I asked him if I could plug in my car,
next time. He thought it was cool! Wanted to see the car. He had heard of
WKtEC and "Inconvenient Truth".HE was ready for EV's. I didn't quite suggest
outlet strips in the parking lot. But I'll bet that he would think of it IF
I made a good showing with an EV.People are ready! Before I would hafta
build any enthusiasm with rank an' file folks. But nowadaze it is THERE
already. He was a bit surprised that I said any sturdy outlet would do, but
we would LOVE 240 range plugs in the lot, or REC V setups, like in a
campground. They come in 240 volt flavers, too.You would linger over coffee
and $4.50 gooey ,chocolate deserts, IF ya knew your EV was chowing down,
too.Say at 50 amps? I'd EVEN Pay for that!!!.I said:" If you build it, they
will come"EVentually.So, we need small 20 amp steps here. Like somehow
making putting in outdoor outlets for us. Something$$$$ to make it worth it
to a biz owner, tax break? Hell, not EVerybody reads the Current EVents and
would really care where charging exists, to say, gas powered , but thinking
of an EV, Joe Sixpack.
As a old timer EVer I always scope out parking lots, sniffing out
outlets. Like at Bob Evens at Joliet. I found a nice juicy outlet on the
building, and parked there. Wasn't in the proper spot, but they didn't yell
at me.Usually outlets are NOT convenient to park at-plug in to.Or you have
to deploy a 100 foor chord to reach.Pain in the ass in the snow an' rain!
This could be a good thing for, maybe the EAA to go after? trying to set
up convenient outlets outdoors for us. Remy Chavlier set out from the Joliet
dragway EVent down RT 66 with that in mind? Remy?? Copying the mail??How did
ya make out? I think it would be fun to convoy a bunch of EVers on a Route
66 Adventure, plugging along the Mother Road, out to the coast. Maybe next
year AFTER the Races we hook up and convoy out?Stopping at quirky museums
and attractions as ya charge along.EV Touring could become a sorta
recreational sport. Like Trolley Touring a century ago. Trolley outfits used
to put out tour guide books, back then, they are very collectable, today.
Common folks would see EV's being used, and get a look at a few conversions
and come away with an I-can-do-that feeling. Ya pass out propaganda, Net
Links and show an' tell.
OK drifting off topic.........again
Just my two watts worth
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Creation of EVCC, aka the Electric Vehicle Certification
Committee
> Having been in this business since 1979, I think we qualify as
> pioneers, so I'll put in my two cents here.
>
> First, consensus is very difficult to achieve. Several years ago, we
> were involved in the founding of the Electric Vehicle Industry
> Association. Ever heard of it? It died at a young age. One of the
> things we attempted was setting standards, but even among a handful
> of people, we could not reach consensus. Look at the recurring
> threads on this list that are never resolved. Just say, "Crimp or
> solder?" and see what you get.
>
> Second, you talk about making the cars "mainstream" and "affordable"
> while at the same time basing all your hopes on "super
> batteries". Those are mutally incompatible. If you are talking
> about lithium or NiMH, I have seen enough on this list that I will
> NOT recommend those for conversions for Joe Citizen. They are NOT
> plug and play at this time, and they are NOT affordable for most
> people. The people who are using those batteries are early adopters
> and tech/auto geeks who are happy to spend a lot of their time and
> energy thinking about their car, monitoring it, and tweaking it.
>
> Third, your certification needs clout to make it worth
> anything. This means a massive public education program. The
> mainstream doesn't know the difference between Wilderness EV and AC
> Propulsion, and a nice seal on the web site will not make a whole lot
> of difference unless they know what it means. Most eyeballs will
> slide right past it without registering it. You can lead a viewer to
> a FAQ, but you can't make them read.
>
> Fourth, you want to have certified service centers. Great idea! We
> ran a program for years called the Pro-Mech Program. For a fee, we
> put professional mechanics through a training program, which included
> follow-up tech support, sales referrals, and discounts on
> parts. Having been in the automotive service trade for years, we
> knew the channels of communication. We did booths and seminars at
> trade shows, we advertised in trade publications and association
> publications, we worked our butts off trying to recruit a network of
> professional mechanics who could do conversions and service the
> cars. We did get a couple dozen people over the years who took the
> training. NOT ONE OF THEM built more than a single car for
> themselves, or stayed with the program. We finally shut it down for
> lack of interest.
>
> I would LOVE to see a set of standards and some kind of certification
> and a service and conversion infrastructure. But I'm not holding my
breath.
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/436 - Release Date: 9/1/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
rick white wrote:
Hi Chris,
I do not believe the Tiger Paw is anything special, it is just what came
with the trucks to begin with. However to gain efficiency I run them at
50 psi, and have done so for 6 years so far with no problems.
Rick
Hm. I need to drive this thing in the winter, so I am a bit leery of
getting the $40 tires. I'll give these a shot and see how they work out.
I wonder though if I should keep the old Invicta tires. Even though they
are "dry rotted" they still look good and I'd hate to lose mileage. Or
is that stupid?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have long been looking at the Honda "Wagovan". Small station wagon/mini van
type of thing. Looks like it would be great for battery placement if not a
little smaller than the Ford Escort. They should be fairly available and if
like the rest of the Hondas they seem to hold up well, should be able to find
a nice one with a run out engine. Good luck, this is the kind of EV that we
really need!! David Chapman.
Quoting John Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> I'm looking for a candidate to do serial conversions of a "soccer mom
> mobile"/ small buisness errand vehicle.
>
> I'm considering the Ford Escort Wagons '91-98.
>
> Grateful for opinions.
>
> - John
>
> John Foster
> Vancouver BC Canada
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Sep 2006 at 16:59, Ev Performance (Robert Chew) wrote:
> its a diesel running on veggie oil.
Regrettably, I must point out that this list is not for general ICE
automotive problems, even when the ICE is running on alternative fuels.
There are many, many other more appropriate lists and forums on the
internet. Please post questions about ICE vehicles there rather than here.
Thanks for your understanding and cooperation with our efforts to keep the
list on topic.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I agree that the public's failure to embrace EVs has little or nothing to do
with a lack of standards.
The reasons for the lack of INTEREST in EVs are manifold and we could spend
months discussing them. Some of them are : the "golf car" image, fear of
change, high cost for low perceived value, dearth of successful examples
which meet their perceived needs, poor or no marketing, and deliberate
negative publicity by industry stakeholders (anti-marketing if you will).
I'm sure most of us could list many more.
Quite a few people have tried to compare EVs to computers in the late 1970s
and early 1980s. They hope that something akin to the ISA could be coupled
with an open-source effort similar to Linux. It sounds good, but I'm not at
all sure the parallels work. Besides, I may be mistaken, but I'm fairly
sure that both of these computer "standards" evolved largely by accident,
not because of the creation of committees.
A better and more likely scenario would be a parallel of the clone PC
>BIOSes< instead. If I'm not mistaken, most of the early clones used a bios
developed by Taiwan electronics manufacturers with support of Taiwan's
government.
China has already evolved a de facto standard - basic components and a
reference design - for cheap electric scooters. (Search for "electric
scooter" on Ebay and see how many of these you can count. ;-) Given their
severe air pollution problems and expanding appetite for energy, I wouldn't
be surprised if the Chinese government funded a consortium to develop a
basic set of EV components, including batteries (probably lithium based)
which could be tweaked for different road EV applications.
THAT will be your standard - for better and/or worse - and I would be very
surprised if it isn't welcomed by many of the members of this list. Even if
they don't buy a $10k Chinese EV, they'll be buying the components for their
conversions. I predict that a whole subindustry will evolve based on
"souping up" $400 Chinese motors and $900 Chinese controllers. ;-)
As for a standard's effect on public awareness of EVs, it's very difficult
to build such awareness without a huge PR budget.
Nor is it necessary. There are already "tendrils" reaching into the
public's consciousness. They are e-bikes, scooters, gas-only "hybrids," and
"plug hybrids." IMO, these tendrils present the best opportunity to
eventually establish a bumper crop of real EVs in the public's hands. I
think we should be supporting these efforts, and continuing to show people
that EVs work for us, rather than "spinning our wheels" arguing over
standards which the industry isn't ready for.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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