EV Digest 5834
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: NmG dealership in Texas!
by Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Batteries (8 volt vs 6 volt)- again
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Help with an EV-1B controller
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Creation of EVCC, aka the Electric Vehicle Certification Committee
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Creation of EVCC / $15K electric car dream oops
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Creation of EVCC / $15K electric car dream oops
by Jay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: SMARTcar on eBay
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Batteries (8 volt vs 6 volt)- again / UCaps oops
by Lee Lazon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Bob Broilo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Creation of EVCC / $15K electric car dream oops
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
I told him that if I were him, my business model would essentially be
Zap, but with a good reputation. But what I told him has very little
weight.
- Jake
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NmG dealership in Texas!
> The last time I talked to Dana Myers, about three months ago, I asked
> him what his business plan was going to be after he sold all of the
> Sparrow chassis he has in stock. He dodged my question, asking me
what
> I would do if I were in his shoes.
>
> - Jake Oshins.
Did you tell him that if you were him, you'd already be working on a
new design for the end of existing stock? The other option is to plan
on dissolving the company when the Corbin creations run out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Sep 2006 at 9:45, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> 8V batteries don't live long if you expect to draw more than about 250
> amps from them on a regular basis. As I recall the 6V batteries can dish out
> about 350-400 amps before running into the same life expectancy problems.
>
> So yes, the 8V batteries weigh less, but they are also less powerful.
A little quick math :
250a * 8v = 2000W
350a * 6v = 2100W
They're not that much less powerful at all.
When you pull out 16 6v batteries and drop in 16 8v batteries, you have
faster acceleration because the higher voltage overcomes your motor's back
EMF to higher RPM in each gear. The question is, what do you do with it?
If you use that acceleration, you're asking for more current than those
batteries are really designed for.
The problem with 8v golf car batteries' service life is in the driver's
right foot, not in the batteries.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I traded for an electric forklift. I have cannibalized it for
parts. Does anyone have diagram for hooking an EV1 controller to a
motor and pot box? I have looked for specs online and I am finding
nothing of help.
R. Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
1981 Jet Electrica.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay wrote:
> Creation of EVCC, aka the Electric Vehicle Certification Committee:
It's a noble idea; but I don't think this is how standards actually
develop. Usually, one of two things happen:
1. One company totally dominates an industry, and drives out all the
competition. They set the standard themselves, to what is convenient
and profitable for them, with little regard for what anyone else
wants.
2. Many competing systems develop, and exist simultaneously in the
marketplace. A "survival of the fittest" battle ensues; either
one company wins (and 1. above then happens), or the warring
parties get together and say, "Look, we're killing each other;
let's agree to a standard so we can all survive."
Neither of these scenarios is likely to happen in the short run in the
EV industry. There are no "giants", and there is no reason for the many
small players to cooperate.
> The EV industry does not cater to the specifications of the
> middle class.
Right; because the middle class isn't a customer.
> It lacks direction and is fragmented without standards, has no
> infrastructure, has confusing technologies, has none of the primary
> automakers offering major production, lacks friendly laws, lacks
> funded lobbyists, and has no mainstream public acceptance.
All true.
> The mainstream public avoids EV solutions because they have
> "standards" they insist on maintaining that eliminates their
> consideration of an EV.
Mainly, the mainstream public buys based on advertising, styling,
availability and cost. EVs do not excel in these areas.
> We believe the fastest way to mainstream EVs is to replicate the
> success of the "small block Chevy" type standardization. The
> ability to mix & match all ranges of price and performance from
> vast numbers of suppliers by any type of user is the historic
> model that is adaptable to an EV success model and difficult
> for critics to destroy.
We already have this level of standardization, thanks to the forklift,
golfcart and industrial EV industries. Motors, controllers, and
batteries are all readily available and easily interchangeable. They
aren't quite "plug and play", but are certainly FAR easier to
mix-n-match than ICE engines and their components!
> We believe a standards committee would advance the EV cause in
> months instead of years and decades.
I disagree. We aren't ready to advance beyond the de facto standards
that already exist. The technology is changing too fast. We don't know
the "best" ways to do things yet.
Your heart is in the right place, but I think a better approach would be
to have a set of "recommended practices". Write a document that SUGGESTS
the way to do it. It needs to provide the reasons WHY they are good
ideas, so people will voluntarily comply with them because they are
work, and it's easier than figuring out everything the hard way.
> I suggest that the 1st Standards Committee consist of only 5 members
> and be called the EVCC, short for the Electric Vehicle Certification
> Committee.
"Certification" has the wrong connotation. It implies rigid requirements
and mandatory enforcement, like the building codes.
> We nominate Roger, Otmar, Wayland, Rich, Ken, Dennis, Rod, Roland,
> Lee Hart, Lawrence, Phillipe, Bill Dube, and Jim H.
The EV list itself effectively functions as the "meeting place" for this
group, with everyone able to see the opinions and deliberations of this
"committee". I'm not sure we can improve on it at the present state of
EV development.
NEDRA is doing a good job in the drag racing arena. They are defining
standard classes, safety rules, etc. There are a lot of growing pains,
but they have made excellent progress.
In the larger EV front, I think what is most lacking is political
muscle. At some point (preferably NOW!) we should have lobbyists and
lawyers that are championing EVs, to prevent them from being
marginalized in the laws. Why should it be so hard to get an EV licensed
and insured? Why not allow coin-operated AC outlets for charging? Why
make it so difficult for small vehicle manufacturers to get started?
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don wrote:
>> If Solectria built the Sunrise, had $60m marketing budget, CARB was
>> in place and sold it for $15k a shot, it would be successful --
>> regardless of standards.
Seth Myers wrote:
> I agree - in this case, I think supply would create its own demand
> Solectria's somewhat expensive AC stuff however seems to need about
> a $4000 car to get the overall price to $15K... maybe DC conversions
> still have a viable future... Going into business planning on making
> your own vehicle is an expensive proposition, and hard to keep the
> vehicle under $15k
Interesting that you mention the Sunrise. I too think it is a wonderful
example of the "EV for EVeryone" -- not just for us hobbyists and
engineers. That's why I'm working with a team to see if we can ressurect
it, and produce a kit-car version!
A kit, because it side-steps the onerous regulations for a vehicle
manufacturer. Also, we are modifying the design to be more "open
source". You could build one with an Azure/Siemens/MES AC system and
high-tech batteries, or a regular old DC motor/controller system with
lead-acid batteries. I'm quite sure the price could be under $15k if you
took the DC route and did the assembly yourself.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our suggestion of "standards" had mostly to do with:
"Certifying" basics that everybody can easily agree
upon like:
a) fire safety (a electrical fire extenguisher
onboard)
b) safety cutoff switches
c) minimum wire sizes
d) incorporation of a few appropriate SAE basics
e) safety grounding procedures
f) shielding against offensive freq broadcasting
g) EVCC seal of compliance
If the EV pioneers don't do it, GM, Ford, Tesla, or
the government will (and perhaps include some
detrimental or self-serving guidelines as well).
Don't we all agree that most of the above (a to g)
require little discussion and agreement? If only two
of the guidelines (like a)fire and b) safety) were
enough to get started, we would have a simple standard
that could go on every vehicle and create a platform.
The SEAL would be displayed, questioned, noticed,
discussed, and featured as part of electric publicity
and public awareness. It is a sales tool, reselling
tool, an announcement that there is at least SOME
safety and review happening. How can it hurt?
Jay
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree that the public's failure to embrace EVs has
> little or nothing to do
> with a lack of standards.
>
> The reasons for the lack of INTEREST in EVs are
> manifold and we could spend
> months discussing them. Some of them are : the
> "golf car" image, fear of
> change, high cost for low perceived value, dearth of
> successful examples
> which meet their perceived needs, poor or no
> marketing, and deliberate
> negative publicity by industry stakeholders
> (anti-marketing if you will).
> I'm sure most of us could list many more.
>
> Quite a few people have tried to compare EVs to
> computers in the late 1970s
> and early 1980s. They hope that something akin to
> the ISA could be coupled
> with an open-source effort similar to Linux. It
> sounds good, but I'm not at
> all sure the parallels work. Besides, I may be
> mistaken, but I'm fairly
> sure that both of these computer "standards" evolved
> largely by accident,
> not because of the creation of committees.
>
> A better and more likely scenario would be a
> parallel of the clone PC
> >BIOSes< instead. If I'm not mistaken, most of the
> early clones used a bios
> developed by Taiwan electronics manufacturers with
> support of Taiwan's
> government.
>
> China has already evolved a de facto standard -
> basic components and a
> reference design - for cheap electric scooters.
> (Search for "electric
> scooter" on Ebay and see how many of these you can
> count. ;-) Given their
> severe air pollution problems and expanding appetite
> for energy, I wouldn't
> be surprised if the Chinese government funded a
> consortium to develop a
> basic set of EV components, including batteries
> (probably lithium based)
> which could be tweaked for different road EV
> applications.
>
> THAT will be your standard - for better and/or worse
> - and I would be very
> surprised if it isn't welcomed by many of the
> members of this list. Even if
> they don't buy a $10k Chinese EV, they'll be buying
> the components for their
> conversions. I predict that a whole subindustry will
> evolve based on
> "souping up" $400 Chinese motors and $900 Chinese
> controllers. ;-)
>
> As for a standard's effect on public awareness of
> EVs, it's very difficult
> to build such awareness without a huge PR budget.
>
> Nor is it necessary. There are already "tendrils"
> reaching into the
> public's consciousness. They are e-bikes, scooters,
> gas-only "hybrids," and
> "plug hybrids." IMO, these tendrils present the
> best opportunity to
> eventually establish a bumper crop of real EVs in
> the public's hands. I
> think we should be supporting these efforts, and
> continuing to show people
> that EVs work for us, rather than "spinning our
> wheels" arguing over
> standards which the industry isn't ready for.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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> address from
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
> The sell, in Canada, for around $16K, if I hear right.
No, Don Cameron recently pointed out that *used* Smarts are selling, in
Canada, for CAD$20-28k.
I don't know if it is still the case, but the situation here was that
demand greatly exceeded supply; it was not unusual for people to wait
months for their new Smart to be delivered. This demand certainly seems
to be keeping the used prices high.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
flooded nicad sag, it's normal but on aircraft cells (power cells) imho it's
a sign your are not egalising enough
On my 120V100Ah pack (energy purpose cells) i see a 10V sag at 200A load.
Nickel plating is necessary, easy to do with electroless kit and surface
resistance is not relevant compared to covered copper bar one which will
cary all load.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> --- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > All of the interconnects in my truck are nickel plated. This might
> > explain the bit of a voltage sag; I drop about 25 volts out of 300 total
> > when I floor it to 200a. Still, I can deal with that.
>
> I wonder what the difference would be without the nickel plating? Maybe
there isn't that much of a
> difference? The nickel is a necessary piece of the puzzle, no good way
around it.
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In fact just twice, on first charge(initialisation with 150% Ah) and after
2500km...it take me an afternoon with special purpose seringe but half that
was as i have to open all body, battery box of scooter :^))
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/Saftcvh500ka.jpg
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/SeringueSaft.jpg
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/images/ItalvelEVolutionA%20006.jpg
Nota than my cells have 60ml water reserve and BB600 have 30ml so you will
make it twice more often...
then i switched to flooded/sealed 36V100Ah NIMH :^)
I don't have to but i will make watering once per year to have longer life
from them...(+2000 cycles instead of 1000)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 4:51 PM
Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > oh my god ! i was thinking 31 cell pack is a pain...
> >
> > repeat after me:
> >
> > i like watering my cells, i like watering my cells, i like watering...
>
> That's what I have too Phillipe. Haven't pulled the deck to water yet,
> but it took me about 30 minutes last time I did it. The trick is to
> clear off the battery tops, charge till full, then pull rows of tops and
> follow with the baster full of water.
>
> The biggest pain is wearing safety glasses. Oh by the way, wear safety
> glasses when working on BB600's. I sprayed my face with KAOH, had
> glasses, still had to grab the vinegar (ahhhh OW) then the baking soda
> (aaahh) one after the other.
>
> How often did you have to water the cells?
>
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate
> a high conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
Nickel does indeed have a higher resistivity than copper. However, it's
still good compared to tin, lead, solder, iron, steel, etc.
1.62 Silver
1.72 Copper
2.44 Gold
2.62 Aluminum
3.9-5 Brass (depends on alloy)
6.0 Zinc
6.9 Nickel
9.7 Iron
11.4 Tin
21.9 Lead
14-16 Tin/Lead solder (depends on alloy)
13-22 Steel (depends on alloy)
60-90 Stainless steel (depends on alloy)
These are all in ohm-cm X 10^-6 at 20 deg.C. You can treat them as the
relative resistances; if a particular shape bus bar had a resistance of.
If a copper wire has a resistance of 1.72 ohms, the same size and length
of silver wire would be 1.62 ohms, aluminum wire would be 2.62 ohms,
nickel would be 6.9 ohms, etc. Thus a solid nickel buss bar needs to be
about 4 times thicker than a copper buss bar to have the same
resistance.
In most cases, you only plate the buss bar with a thin layer of some
other metal. The plating has a negligible thickness, and its effect on
total resistance can be ignored for the most part.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Be carreful with these beautiful cells as they egalise on overcharge step
and need it made each time at sufficent level !
1,65V max at end with such algorythms is pretty good:
Normal charge = charge (called C1) of 5H maximum (according to the initial
state of charge) at C/5 followed by a supplementary 'overcharge' at C/20
(duration 10th of C1 or maximum 3H)
Equalisation charge(if you use not the whole capacity often they became lazy
and can died, to have capacity back make 1 or more full discharge then this
special charge ) = C1 +1/10 C1 + supplementary 'overcharge' of 3H at C/20
Maintenance charge (for water refilling) = C1 +1/10 C1 + supplementary
'overcharge' of 5H à C/10 with ON times of 72H, 2 minutes a pulsated load
all 28mn.
If you don't make the overcharge step, few cells will be weaker and make
others going into thermal runaway during nexts charges !!!
boiling noise though scary is normal cell reaction during overcharge :^)
Very important also track the temp for charge protection ! 1 sensor on each
battery box, upper 45°C ambiant stop or don't start the charge.
the best/simple way to do this imho is normaly closed temp switch opening a
relay opening the charger grid side.
You can put a LED+ resistor across the temp switch to know when and which
temp switch is OFF for temp alarm.
Watering more is better for their life, trust me i played with such cells a
lot and killed few of them experimenting best technics.
One more thing to know, your target is refilling half cell water reserve
never more !
So track your km, demineralized water ml you put on them, if you refill with
more than their 1/2 electrolyte reserve (level between min and max) you have
waited to much km, if you refill with less you have been to impatient but
it's better than to be lazy on watering.
Once you have this "target" km, make all your battery servicing with it as a
maximum limit.
have fun with nicad
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> I experimented with the charging cycles and think that since the truck
> can only put in 6-7 amps into the pack during constant current
> charging and about 1-2 amps during constant voltage, that if I keep
> the voltage right at 1.5vpc or less that the boiling is kept to a
> minimum. This is what I watched occur on the bench. During the
> initialization of the cells up to 1.67vpc I could actually here them
> sqeeking thru their vents every now and then because they were boiling
> so badly. So if they don't vent, they should not need alot of watering.
>
> After weighing and watering each and every battery in a pack of 104
> Hawkers, I think these nicads will be easier. See, each Hawker had 6
> cells to water times 104 is 624 cells!!. So only 252 is a cake walk! I
> became very proficient on the hawkers. These Nicads have a nice little
> cap that was actually designed to come off, unlike the lid of the Hawkers.
>
> Veteranary syringes make great watering tools. I bet I can water those
> cells in less than 2 hours.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > oh my god ! i was thinking 31 cell pack is a pain...
> >
> > repeat after me:
> >
> > i like watering my cells, i like watering my cells, i like watering...
> >
> > Philippe
> >
> > ---------- Initial Header -----------
> >
> > >From : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Cc :
> > Date : Wed, 6 Sep 2006 05:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > Subject : Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> >
> > Holy $#!+, that's a lot of cells in one place. Could you describe
> the battery box. I have two
> > battery boxes in the back with 72 cells in each, almost 240 pounds
> per box. I'm concerned about
> > the structures ability to handle the weight. I'm no engineer and
> I've been fretting over how
> > strong the boxes need to be. One good bump and half the cells go out
> the bottom?
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> > --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Here is a pic of the nicads before they get bussbars. The closest
> group
> > > still needs the last 3 put in, but half of them are coming out so
> I can
> > > put the reinforcements in for that side, and the lexan sides as well.
> > >
> > > It looks like some of the bussbars need to get machined a bit to open
> > > up the hole spacing for the side to side cells. So then they need
> to be
> > > replated.
> > >
> > > 252!
> > >
> > > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Nicadssmall.jpg
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
> > Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité
> Enfants, le contrôle parental d'Alice.
> > http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
flooded nicad sag, it's normal but on aircraft cells (power cells) imho it's
a sign your are not egalising enough
On my 120V100Ah pack (energy purpose cells) i see a 10V sag at 200A load.
Ok, then I am in the ballpark. If my pack is twice your voltage and half
your AH size then a 25 volt drop on 300 volts matches up nicely with
your 10 volt drop on 120 volts.
Thank you for the data point.
Nickel plating is necessary, easy to do with electroless kit and surface
resistance is not relevant compared to covered copper bar one which will
cary all load.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The manual shows a bulb with a tiny hole drilled in the side, 1/4"
from the tip of the stem. It seemed to me that this would be a very
fast method for checking and topping off. It's on my to do list.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It would also be nice if we could come up with a standard dimension
for a watering bottle. The
> kind that you stick the snout into the cell and it fills it to the
right depth.
>
> --- Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I experimented with the charging cycles and think that since the truck
> > can only put in 6-7 amps into the pack during constant current
> > charging and about 1-2 amps during constant voltage, that if I keep
> > the voltage right at 1.5vpc or less that the boiling is kept to a
> > minimum. This is what I watched occur on the bench. During the
> > initialization of the cells up to 1.67vpc I could actually here them
> > sqeeking thru their vents every now and then because they were boiling
> > so badly. So if they don't vent, they should not need alot of
watering.
> >
> > After weighing and watering each and every battery in a pack of 104
> > Hawkers, I think these nicads will be easier. See, each Hawker had 6
> > cells to water times 104 is 624 cells!!. So only 252 is a cake walk! I
> > became very proficient on the hawkers. These Nicads have a nice little
> > cap that was actually designed to come off, unlike the lid of the
Hawkers.
> >
> > Veteranary syringes make great watering tools. I bet I can water those
> > cells in less than 2 hours.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "philippe.borges@" <ev@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > oh my god ! i was thinking 31 cell pack is a pain...
> > >
> > > repeat after me:
> > >
> > > i like watering my cells, i like watering my cells, i like
watering...
> > >
> > > Philippe
> > >
> > > ---------- Initial Header -----------
> > >
> > > >From : owner-ev@
> > > To : ev@
> > > Cc :
> > > Date : Wed, 6 Sep 2006 05:00:46 -0700 (PDT)
> > > Subject : Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> > >
> > > Holy $#!+, that's a lot of cells in one place. Could you describe
> > the battery box. I have two
> > > battery boxes in the back with 72 cells in each, almost 240 pounds
> > per box. I'm concerned about
> > > the structures ability to handle the weight. I'm no engineer and
> > I've been fretting over how
> > > strong the boxes need to be. One good bump and half the cells go out
> > the bottom?
> > >
> > > Dave Cover
> > >
> > > --- Mike Phillips <mikep_95133@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Here is a pic of the nicads before they get bussbars. The closest
> > group
> > > > still needs the last 3 put in, but half of them are coming out so
> > I can
> > > > put the reinforcements in for that side, and the lexan sides
as well.
> > > >
> > > > It looks like some of the bussbars need to get machined a bit
to open
> > > > up the hole spacing for the side to side cells. So then they need
> > to be
> > > > replated.
> > > >
> > > > 252!
> > > >
> > > > http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Nicadssmall.jpg
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --------------------- ALICE SECURITE ENFANTS ---------------------
> > > Protégez vos enfants des dangers d'Internet en installant Sécurité
> > Enfants, le contrôle parental d'Alice.
> > > http://www.aliceadsl.fr/securitepc/default_copa.asp
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't know Aluminum was that good. I thought electron flow was only
on the surface of the conductor. So the plating would be a big deal.
Mike
> In most cases, you only plate the buss bar with a thin layer of some
> other metal. The plating has a negligible thickness, and its effect on
> total resistance can be ignored for the most part.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, I am grateful to have your experience on issues like this. I was
getting ready to order an 18x8 volt pack for my Escort Wagon conversion
(9"ADC, Curtis 1231). Just going by the numbers, they seem to be
perfect. I will get 144v and a decent range. Granted, I would get less
current, but with the higher voltage, I would not need as much. Fitting
in 18 batts is going to be tough enough, so I can't expect more than
108v with 6 volts and if I went with 12 volt batts then range would be
minimal.
So, if I take it right, would you guys still recommend 108v of 6 volt
batteries over 144v of 8 volts? Am I just trading "peppy" for "life"?
or are there other factors too?
Thanks. I have dug through the archives looking for some solid data,
but there just seem to be so many differing opinions.
Lee
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Well, it depends on how long you want it to be "peppy" for. If you can
> live with replacing batteries every 6 months, then go for it.
>
> 8V batteries don't live long if you expect to draw more than about 250
> amps from them on a regular basis. As I recall the 6V batteries can dish
> out about 350-400 amps before running into the same life expectancy
> problems.
>
> So yes, the 8V batteries weigh less, but they are also less powerful. The
> net result will be (if you expect a similar life span) similar performance
> with less range.
>
> If you want "peppy" spend the extra bucks on AGM batteries and some kind
> of battery regulators/ballancers. 16 Optima YTs, or Excide Orbitals, in
> buddy pairs will weigh about 720lbs(or less with orbitals) and give you
> 96V that can handle 1000 amps (or more) without breaking a sweat, or a
> 192V conversion using a single string.
>
> I'm not even going to go into the numerous problems with trying to use
> ultra-caps, but the AGMs will give you similar advantages without the
> problems.
>
> As for regen, if you really want it, go for an AC drive system. They work
> MUCH better than any of the currently available DC regen systems and the
> final cost will be about the same. Running a 192V AC system in a light
> car should have pretty decent performance. Or use 20 or so Orbitals/YTs
> and have a >240V AC conversion with plenty of power and range
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I thought electron flow was only on the surface of the conductor.
> So the plating would be a big deal.
At low frequency the electrons flow through the entire crossection of
the conductor; it is only at higher frequencies that skin effect comes
into play, and even then whether or not it is significant at all depends
on the size (crossection) of the conductor and the frequency of the
current. If the conductor crossection is sufficiently small, then the
entire crossection will still be conducting even when the frequency is
relatively high.
In the case of bus bars, which tend to be relatively thin (like 1/8"),
skin effect would have no effect until the frequency is high enough that
the skin depth is less than 1/16".
Here's a practical (if not the most technically involved) reference:
<http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_3/6.html>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't know Aluminum was that good. I thought electron flow was only
on the surface of the conductor. So the plating would be a big deal.
The "skin effect" is only seen at very high frequencies (relative to
EV typical).
--
Bob.
http://www.nmt.edu/~bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The one thing that the green tops have that is different from the red
tops is they have a larger water capacity. I will take pictures and
post them so we can compare water volumes to what you have.
>
> Be carreful with these beautiful cells as they egalise on overcharge
step
> and need it made each time at sufficent level !
Every time I charge them they should be equalized? Or maybe every 4th
time? 10th time?
>
> 1,65V max at end with such algorythms is pretty good:
>
> Normal charge = charge (called C1) of 5H maximum (according to the
initial
> state of charge) at C/5 followed by a supplementary 'overcharge' at C/20
> (duration 10th of C1 or maximum 3H)
>
> Equalisation charge(if you use not the whole capacity often they
became lazy
> and can died, to have capacity back make 1 or more full discharge
then this
> special charge ) = C1 +1/10 C1 + supplementary 'overcharge' of 3H at
C/20
C=44? 40? 35?
It is easy with so many cells to reverse one of them. So I still have
to figure out what "100% DOD" is going to be so they don't get too
discharged and reversed. I will post my packs charging curve so you
can tell me what you think. We have some control over the charge
algorythm, just not perfect control.
>
> Maintenance charge (for water refilling) = C1 +1/10 C1 + supplementary
> 'overcharge' of 5H à C/10 with ON times of 72H, 2 minutes a pulsated
load
> all 28mn.
72H = 72 hours?
>
> If you don't make the overcharge step, few cells will be weaker and make
> others going into thermal runaway during nexts charges !!!
>
> boiling noise though scary is normal cell reaction during overcharge :^)
>
> Very important also track the temp for charge protection ! 1 sensor
on each
> battery box, upper 45°C ambiant stop or don't start the charge.
> the best/simple way to do this imho is normaly closed temp switch
opening a
> relay opening the charger grid side.
So how high can the temperature be when measured on the cell case? 45C
is the max air temperature?
I became an expert with temperature monitoring with the Prius packs ;)
So I can adapt the same circuits to the Nicad cells. Also I'll find
that series of posts from Lee that describe what components the Emeter
needs for sensing pack temps.
>
> You can put a LED+ resistor across the temp switch to know when and
which
> temp switch is OFF for temp alarm.
I can modify the Prius fan circuitry to do this.
> Watering more is better for their life, trust me i played with such
cells a
> lot and killed few of them experimenting best technics.
Right now when the cells are fully charged, the level is at the very
bottom of the V, just above the plates. How high should it be??
>
> One more thing to know, your target is refilling half cell water reserve
> never more !
> So track your km, demineralized water ml you put on them, if you
refill with
> more than their 1/2 electrolyte reserve (level between min and max)
you have
> waited to much km, if you refill with less you have been to
impatient but
> it's better than to be lazy on watering.
> Once you have this "target" km, make all your battery servicing with
it as a
> maximum limit.
How do you measure your water level? I cannot see the sides of my cells.
I'm also ordering temperature crayons so that I can watch all of the
buss bar temps as well.
Thanks Victor!
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> I didn't know Aluminum was that good.
Yes, it is good. Aluminum wire only needs to be 2 sizes bigger than
copper to have the same resistance (#14 copper = #12 aluminum etc.)
Since aluminum is about 1/3 the weight, it is actually better than
copper, pound for pound.
> I thought electron flow was only on the surface of the conductor.
> So the plating would be a big deal.
That's called the "skin effect". It only applies to AC (not DC, like
batteries) and it only gets important for really large wires and/or very
high frequencies. For example, the current at 60hz penetrates about 1/2"
deep in copper, so your conductors would have to be over 1" in diameter
to matter.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay-
You've kinda created a circular argument.
You suggest standards have to do with certifying basics, then among those
basics you list EVCC standards themselves.
You'll get agreement from all of us on all the safety items you mentioned: (a)
thru (f).
But (g) "certification" sticks out like a sore thumb and doesn't seem to belong
on the list.
IF it's safety that motivates standards, fine, let's focus on and expand
(a)-(f) and incorporate it into a FAQ or "guidlines for EVs", or perhaps even a
set of "standards". E.G.--The NW Steam Society created a handbook of
guidelines for safe steam boat building and operation.
But there's a big difference between creating a set of standards or guidelines
and "certification".
Looking at your original list of items for certification, you seemed more
concerned about things that weren't safety related---e.g. specific battery
voltages and interface definitions (IIRC). That seems to spawn more from self
interest as someone engaged in or expanding into the EV component business.
Sure it makes sense for you to create discrete voltage standards that bound
your product variants (battery packs), save you money and would ensure a
broader net of customers. But that has little or nothing to do with safety!
Back to steam as an example: In the steam world, in many cases, boilers must be
certified---in others, not.
And to get a boiler ASME certified requires not only that the boiler design is
a design that meets ASME boiler design standards, but that the designer was a
Professional Engineer and signed and sealed the design. ASME boiler
certification also requires that the boiler was built by a certified welder
using the right materials. Additionally, certified boilers require annual
inspections by the state boiler inspector, or, in the case of navigable
waterways and large marine boilers, the US Coast Guard. In the case of small
"hobby" steam boilers, many or most states don't require any certification.
And this is rooted in safety. The greater the capacity and pressure, the more
the safety concern and the more important that certification and inspections
are done.
I'm not sure I'd want to be on a committee authoring an EV "seal of approval"
unless there were professionally licensed engineers also on the board willing
to stamp the certification standards with their professional rubber stamp. At
least PEs have signed ethics oaths to only approve designs and documents that
they personally have seen and which cover areas of which they are experts.
They also have the legal recognition to make such engineering decisions.
That's why PE's approve all major electrical, mechanical and civil engineering
designs and standards and it is their ass on the line if they approve something
that is later shown to fail due to negligence.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
PE/Electrical and Control Systems Engineering
-------------- Original message --------------
From: Jay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Our suggestion of "standards" had mostly to do with:
> "Certifying" basics that everybody can easily agree
> upon like:
> a) fire safety (a electrical fire extenguisher
> onboard)
> b) safety cutoff switches
> c) minimum wire sizes
> d) incorporation of a few appropriate SAE basics
> e) safety grounding procedures
> f) shielding against offensive freq broadcasting
> g) EVCC seal of compliance
> If the EV pioneers don't do it, GM, Ford, Tesla, or
> the government will (and perhaps include some
> detrimental or self-serving guidelines as well).
> Don't we all agree that most of the above (a to g)
> require little discussion and agreement? If only two
> of the guidelines (like a)fire and b) safety) were
> enough to get started, we would have a simple standard
> that could go on every vehicle and create a platform.
> The SEAL would be displayed, questioned, noticed,
> discussed, and featured as part of electric publicity
> and public awareness. It is a sales tool, reselling
> tool, an announcement that there is at least SOME
> safety and review happening. How can it hurt?
> Jay
>
> --- David Roden wrote:
>
> > I agree that the public's failure to embrace EVs has
> > little or nothing to do
> > with a lack of standards.
> >
> > The reasons for the lack of INTEREST in EVs are
> > manifold and we could spend
> > months discussing them. Some of them are : the
> > "golf car" image, fear of
> > change, high cost for low perceived value, dearth of
> > successful examples
> > which meet their perceived needs, poor or no
> > marketing, and deliberate
> > negative publicity by industry stakeholders
> > (anti-marketing if you will).
> > I'm sure most of us could list many more.
> >
> > Quite a few people have tried to compare EVs to
> > computers in the late 1970s
> > and early 1980s. They hope that something akin to
> > the ISA could be coupled
> > with an open-source effort similar to Linux. It
> > sounds good, but I'm not at
> > all sure the parallels work. Besides, I may be
> > mistaken, but I'm fairly
> > sure that both of these computer "standards" evolved
> > largely by accident,
> > not because of the creation of committees.
> >
> > A better and more likely scenario would be a
> > parallel of the clone PC
> > >BIOSes< instead. If I'm not mistaken, most of the
> > early clones used a bios
> > developed by Taiwan electronics manufacturers with
> > support of Taiwan's
> > government.
> >
> > China has already evolved a de facto standard -
> > basic components and a
> > reference design - for cheap electric scooters.
> > (Search for "electric
> > scooter" on Ebay and see how many of these you can
> > count. ;-) Given their
> > severe air pollution problems and expanding appetite
> > for energy, I wouldn't
> > be surprised if the Chinese government funded a
> > consortium to develop a
> > basic set of EV components, including batteries
> > (probably lithium based)
> > which could be tweaked for different road EV
> > applications.
> >
> > THAT will be your standard - for better and/or worse
> > - and I would be very
> > surprised if it isn't welcomed by many of the
> > members of this list. Even if
> > they don't buy a $10k Chinese EV, they'll be buying
> > the components for their
> > conversions. I predict that a whole subindustry will
> > evolve based on
> > "souping up" $400 Chinese motors and $900 Chinese
> > controllers. ;-)
> >
> > As for a standard's effect on public awareness of
> > EVs, it's very difficult
> > to build such awareness without a huge PR budget.
> >
> > Nor is it necessary. There are already "tendrils"
> > reaching into the
> > public's consciousness. They are e-bikes, scooters,
> > gas-only "hybrids," and
> > "plug hybrids." IMO, these tendrils present the
> > best opportunity to
> > eventually establish a bumper crop of real EVs in
> > the public's hands. I
> > think we should be supporting these efforts, and
> > continuing to show people
> > that EVs work for us, rather than "spinning our
> > wheels" arguing over
> > standards which the industry isn't ready for.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
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> > = = = = = = =
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> > you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how:
> > http://www.evdl.org/help/
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> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses
> > will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please obtain my email
> > address from
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> >
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
