EV Digest 5836
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Batteries (8 volt vs 6 volt)- again / UCaps oops
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Trike 'motorcycle'
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: SMARTcar on eBay
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Trike
by "richard weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Standards
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Standards
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Car weights and tire pressure
by "Robyn Lundstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Standards
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fun with Batteries and Testers
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Judging contactor condition?
by "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Cable sheilding
by "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Cable sheilding
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) E-mail test to list
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Sep 2006 at 10:08, Lee Lazon wrote:
> So, if I take it right, would you guys still recommend 108v of 6 volt
> batteries over 144v of 8 volts?
All other things being equal and >in typical use< the car with 6v golf car
batteries will have a lower operating cost owing to longer battery cycle
life. I'm assuming a typical chopper and GE or ADC series motor conversion
here.
A 108v Escort wagon won't be a racer, and it'll be slower than the ICE
version, but for a person who plans ahead in driving ;-) the acceleration
will be adequate. You should be able to get it to 70+ mph, though it may
take a while.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
> Getting a dual-front wheel trike registered here I can see
> having problems
> - it is likely to be considered to be a 3-wheeled car rather than a
> 3-wheeled motorbike, at least in perception if not in technicality.
> Registration for a "normal" motorcycle-trike is pretty straight
> forward - but that chassis layout doesn't lend itself to getting
> the batteries installed low and back.
Another consideration may be that *every* real motorcycle trike I've
ever seen has been of the one-front/2-rear variety (a local EVer built
an electric 2-front/1-rear version, but it was not based on standard
motorcycle parts at all).
Regardless of whether its real-world performance is better or worse than
the alternative, the one-front/2-rear configuration based on a standard
motorcycle front end is likely to have greater appeal to motorcyclists
(who are the people who would be interested in operating an unenclosed
vehicle of this type anyway), and this configuration typically has at
least the driver sitting astride a "normal" motorcycle saddle, which is
often part of the regulations defining what is or is not a motorcycle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to take some issue with that David. Tires that spend their life
outside seem to have a life of around 10 years (or less.) I don't know
how long tires stored indoors will last (yet.)
In my old '65 Dodge I put on a set of radial tires in 1994 and replaced
them in 2004. This car spend most of its time outdoors. I knew the
rubber was bad; I could see a few side wall cords slightly with them
inflated on my car (but I still had 5/32nds inch of tread.) One morning
I came out to a flat tire (nail in the tread.) When the tire collapsed
the side wall split, completely exposing the cords and breaking quite a
few. 10 years and very dead.
The tires on the EV buggy have been in service since 1992. Yes, they
are 14 years old and in excellent shape (at least from all visual
indicators.) That vehicle is garaged unless its being used. Different
service and very different life. The front and rear tires are different
brands too, so I have 2 data points indicating >10 year life. When the
side walls start checking like the Dodge I will have to replace them -
the buggy is all about visuals you know :-)
Paul G.
On Sep 6, 2006, at 5:30 PM, David Roden wrote:
2. If I'm right about the mfg status any that you find now will
probably be
at least partly deteriorated. Very few areas have air clean enough to
preserve tire rubber for 6 years or more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well there's also brush plating, which is how a lot of small stuff like
gold plated car emblems are done. It can produce good results if done
well, though generally it's an inferior process to tank plating.
However, it's much cheaper than filling a tank with solution. Having
gallons of sodium cyanide solution around is kinda scary too.
Also IIRC gold does not work well directly on top of copper. One is the
gold plating is somewhat porous and any corrosion underneath the gold
will be a problem, I also heard migration was another problem. The
solution was usually a barrier layer of nickle plated down first.
Nickle is irritating to many people's skin so jewelry more often uses a
more expensive rhodium barrier layer, except for the really cheap jewelry.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Mike,
Plating the buss bars, is the way I would go. It is easy to do with the
following setup:
The plating tank can be acrylic fiberglass, polyethylene, polyprophlene or
glass with a flat open surface which you can lay two lengths of 2 x 2 wood
space apart on top of the container.
The wood holds three solid copper wires by inserting them into drill holes
in the wood. These rods are all space apart.
The center rod, will be the hold the object you want to plate which is call
the cathode which comes from a negative DC source.
The outside two rods, will hold the metal you are plating from which is call
the anode which comes from a positive DC source.
The object you want to plate and the cathodes are suspended from the copper
rods by using a small bare copper wire that is attach to the copper rods
buss with alligator clips.
You should always suspend the object you want to plate in the center of the
bath and surround it with at least four cathodes. This gives it even
plating on all sides.
The four anodes can be stainless steel if you use a bath using the
electrolyte contain the metal you want to plate with.
I find its it easer to just use the anodes as the metal you want to plate,
but sometimes this is a higher cost.
Use distill water with 3 to 6 percent sodium per gallon solution using gold
bars or you can use sodium gold cyanide in a 3.6 percent per gallon
solution, a sodium cyanide of 3.6 to 7.2 percent per gallon and disodium
phosphate of 3.6 to 10.8 percent per gallon.
Use a battery with a maximum of 12 volts at a sustained current of 0 to 12
amps for small items to 10 to 20 amps for larger items. Electroplating is
normally done from 2 volts for a fine finish to 10 volts for a course
finish. If you are plating with gold, you only need 15 to 20 seconds. Gold
is rarely thicker than 0.0001 inch.
If you want a thicker deposit, you must removed the object after 20 seconds,
clean it and plating again.
To clean the object you want to plate, you can reversed the current from the
cathode to the anodes. It is best to do this in a separate cleaning tank.
This only takes seconds.
I started to clean copper bars one time, and I left them in too long, 30
seconds and they look like they were sand blast, not smooth at all.
If you used a electrolytes bath of the base metal you want to use, it is
recommended that these solutions are heated from a range of 70 to 150 degree
F. which the electroplating solutions to work at.
I find it is just best to have the anodes as the plating metal.
while you are at it, you can plate all you battery connectors, bolts, nuts
and etc.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roland Wiench" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Mike,
Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate a
high
conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
I found this out when I install all nickel plated fasteners on my
battery
links. My copper bars at one time was coated with a very thin frosted
silvery coating which is a normal coating for buss bars. I don't
have the
specs on that type of alloy. This coating is normally used in
electrical
connections which might be a alloy of copper and cadmium which gives
it a
frosted silvery copper tone.
I think that is what my buss bars and nuts are coasted with. They have
very close to what you describe for the plating surface.
I wish we knew what the plating was!!
Nickel is too high resistance, but has good corrosion resistance.
They are
good for battery fasteners, but do not use them between the buss
bars and
the battery terminals.
Copper has too high corrosion factor.
Silver which is a very good conductor but is subject to corrosion.
Gold plating is a little less conductance then silver but it has a high
resistance to corrosion.
So I used gold plating fasters between my battery post and cadmium
plated
links, which acts like a bi-metal connection which we used in our
overhead
line electrical work. It works good.
If we have buss bar links that does not fit the bolt holes just
right, we
then drill them out a little larger and apply Tinning Butter and
apply a
little lead to that area, or use a re-plating kit that you can plate
this
link with any alloy you want.
Is tinning butter just pure tin + flux?
You can get the plating solutions in the kit, or can purchase them
in large
bulk from the Fisher Laboratory Scientific Supply Companies.
I found that the contact area makes a good conduction path. After
we remove
them after years of surface, the surface was still highly polish to
a mirror
finish.
So plating a polished surface is the best idea? I made my plates from
polished copper for the old lead acid pack. Plating them would make
them a good bet for the Nicads.
You can can this Tinning Butter, Lead sticks, and even Cadmium
plating kits
from www.eastwoodcompany.com
I haven't looked those guys up in years. Thanks for the reminder.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> USD$16k is about CAD$17,700 today, so as you say, it isn't too far off
> the mark for the most basic model's MSRP. I think that Don's
> observation that used Smarts are selling for CAD$20-28k is a pretty good
> sign that very few (if any) of the basic models have been sold, and that
> the actual out-the-door cost may be somewhat above MSRP.... by the time
> you add a few options and accessories (upholstery, stereo, cup holder,
> etc. ;^) you're well into the CAD$20k range new; these are not
> inexpensive little cars!
Not uncommon. When shopping for used cars, I sometimes found used were
listed at higher prices than new for many cars. (The Mini was one example.)
Still, at around $16-18K USD, cheaper than the $23-29.5K for Zap's line. <g>
In 2008, Penske will be selling these cars in a few locations, w/o the added
expense of conversion to US standards. Personally, I expect them to be in
the $20K range. They will be stretched by several inches. Despite the extra
weight, they might be more suitable for conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had Tiger Paws on my Sidekick. Over airing them can be dangerous... at
least with the tires they built in the mid 90's. They also get very hard as
they get old... they'll "never" wear out. <g> (With the wear and performance
quality of iron hoops.)
After 8 years, they cracked between the treads (*never* underaired) enough
that they started leaking air. This wasn't a high powered car, but it would
go sideways in a turn, such as a merge ramp, on damp streets. I replaced
them with 30% tread still on them... at 72K miles.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: RE: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
> Invicta GL is a very low Rolling Resistance tire, according to the
> list in the Prius_Technical_Stuff files.
> I would expect it to be an even more "summer tire" than the
> TigerPaw, but I have never seen the Invicta so do not take
> my expectation as truth.
> I have been aquaplaning trough an intersection last spring
> when my wheels locked up on a wet street, this was with
> the TigerPaws at 50 PSI, but that may have just been that,
> an incident.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
newbie questions, i plan on building a trike similar to the rqriley urba trike, i need to do this on as low a budget as possible. i have access to parts for the rolling chassis almost free. i need advice on motor etc that will get desired performance. i want to use as a commuter and will build a fairing for aero. my commute is about 50 miles with some hills and about 20 miles of highway. i would like to do this all electric if possible but a range extender genset would be considered. what motor options are there. i saw some discussed that are sold by surplus center would one of those work? i can get golf cart parts nearly free would those kind of motors work? can i build a contactor for a controller or use golf cart type chargers? thank you in advance for your patience and advice this will be my first project
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Sep 2006 at 18:10, Paul G. wrote:
> I have to take some issue with that David.
Guess it depends on how you use them. EVs usually rack up low mileage (Mark
Hanson's are an exception ;-), so on EVs, tires usually die by the years
rather than by the miles. If you start with a tire that's already 6 or 8
years old, you're definitely behind the game no matter where or how it's
been stored. It will make a lot more difference for the typical EV than for
the typical gasser.
I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that the use of various VOCs and
solvents around tire service shops would have a deleterious effect on tire
rubber over that many years.
If you're getting 14 years out of a set of tires, I'd say you're doing
pretty darned well!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
Continental recommends that tires older than 10 years be replaced. You are
correct... tires stored indoors won't receive their worse harm (UV) but they
will still be getting older. (New tires have UV protection, so last longer
when exposed, than tires of earlier generations.)
If your EV travel is at 40MPH or so, you can afford to take a risk.
Take a close inspection, however. Get the rig out in sunlight or use a very
bright flashlight. Get up close and look for cracks and weathering. These
are sometimes on the sidewalls (for those tires that have seen some sun) but
just as often between the treads. Cracks can often indicate the rubber is
starting to fail, and the cords probably equally. If you can see cracks.
it's serious.
I add tire sealant, any time a tire loses any pressure, when the tires are
new and the rims are steel. With alloy rims, you'll seldom lose pressure (if
you do, it's probably time to replace the tires.) Steel wheels may lose some
pressure, as the beads and/or metal gets older. I do this because running a
tire low (or letting it go flat in the garage) means undue stress. Air is
considered part of the tire's structure. A tire run at 1/2 pressure for 50
miles may be "dead" though it looks fine... IMHO. For the same reason, I
*never* repair a tire. It's thought 50% of tires are incorrectly repaired.
More to the case, running at low pressure builds heat that isn't safe for
the tire.
Tires can still "volatize" while sitting, even in a garage. They can well
last 10 years and more. Still, consider their use and cost. If your vehicle
is on the freeway and "loses" a tire, you are toast. If your speed and
vehicle can handle total loss of a tire, then by all means go ahead. It
certainly is a fair bet that rotated and sun-protected tires can last longer
than Contental's 10 year period.
For myself, I "learned" on 60's and 70's tires. Our 1 ton Chevy PU threw a
tread (1 year old tire) and one of my cars "blew" a tire on the freeway,
spinning me 200 degrees, setting me on a guardrail. Today's tires are so
much safer than those, so one can usually push the limit.
BTW, if your unsealed tires suddenly start leaking a pound or two each month
(I assume you check them regularly) then this is cause for suspicion. Don't
forget to rotate at least once a year. For a parked car, storing it indoors,
on blocks, will probably keep the cords from becoming unbalanced. Parked
outdoors, tire covers are not a bad idea at all.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
> I have to take some issue with that David. Tires that spend their life
> outside seem to have a life of around 10 years (or less.) I don't know
> how long tires stored indoors will last (yet.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess we can find as many negative examples as positive, but I want to
focus on the postive for a second.
The ISA bus and PC clone came about because intel wanted people to buy
their chip so they offered a "reference" design. This prevented any one
company from cornering the market and proprietising it (Speculation on
weather this was on purpose or by accident depends on who you ask)
Anyone could build a competing product.
Linux came about from a college masters thesis work turned into a free
OS. The GPL system kind of states that you must give credit to who
produced it but you are free to change,copy etc.
Most open source projects start with a single great effort and solicited
feedback but others start as a big open discussion that finnaly reduces
down to a plan and a big group project.
If the people on this list can't come to an agreement and establish a
cooperative, voluntary, standard, we are lost.
But I do agree the standards need to be "open" no pun intended, not
rigid as in any one voltage type.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If the people on this list can't come to an agreement and establish a
> cooperative, voluntary, standard, we are lost.
>
> But I do agree the standards need to be "open" no pun intended, not
> rigid as in any one voltage type.
>
When I read "standards" in regards to EVs, I think of conductive and
inductive charging set up by the car companies - not something I'd
like to see repeated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor said:
I have provision to implement it as an option in the EVision gadget
(which replaces e-meter type of instrument). Looks like
quite a few people want some type of tire pressure
monitoring solution. At least I got a single data point
how much it worth :-) Thanks David.
Well, here's how much a commercial one's worth:
http://www.vulcantire.com/smartire_pass_rmt_sys.htm
http://www.vulcantire.com/smartire_pass_sys.htm
http://www.vulcantire.com/smartire_pass_int_sys.htm
The manufacturers website is www.smartire.com. The one with the remote
display (by far the cleanest looking, IMO) is USD$249. Fully programmable,
according to the doc. The sensors strap to the wheel internally and run from
lithium cells with a claimed 5 year life.
The basic is USD$199, but only one pressure setting, 4 blinkenlights and a
buzzer. Not anywhere near cool enough :) That extra 50 bucks is well spent.
I'm with Dave in that this is a very good investment. I'm getting one for
my upcoming Golf conversion. It's small potatoes when compared to the rest
of the gear, and will pay for itself in longer tire life alone.
As an amusing aside, some of the reviews I googled were of the
zOMGExpensive!!1$! persuasion. I chuckled, thinking that it's a piece of
cake to find a *single tire* that goes for a *LOT* more than what this
system costs.
Robyn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IMO, the kind of standards that EV manufacturers might reasonably consider
would be those which apply to user functionality, safety, and convenience.
For example, you can get into almost any modern car and reasonably expect
that the headlights will work from a stalk on the left side of the steering
wheel, and the wipers from one on the right. Automatic transmissions will
shift PRNDL and manual transmissions will have an H pattern. The clutch
will be on the left, brake in the middle, accelerator on the right.
(You laugh, but I remember a time when things weren't quite so
"standardized." Remember pull-out headlight switches? In those days, Ralph
Nader could plausibly write about a driver who was killed in an accident
because he lost control after shutting off the headlights in the belief that
he was pushing in the cigar lighter.)
Take a page from the Prius notebook.
You want a distinctive looking car, one which is not just an electric
version of another vehicle.
You want it to look high-tech, but not too weird. It should appeal to 25-54
year old professionals. Since emotion sells cars, you should conduct
perceptual research to ensure that these drivers aren't put off by the
appearance and have an appropriate response to the car.
It should be large enough to carry at least 4 people including the driver.
For the moment, you want your EV to look and act as much as possible like
the cars that exist now. You can change these "standards" to take better
advantage of EV strengths later, after the users are more comfortable with
EVs.
With those points in mind, here are some "standards" that might reasonably
apply to EVs. You might think some of these are a bit silly, but consider
how successful Toyota has been while taking such a strategy ...
- - -
The car may (but does not have to) use a special charging device. If it
does, the device should be sold with the car and installed by the dealer at
no additional charge. Regardless, the car should always be chargeable with
regular 120 and / or 240 volt receptacles.
The charging connector should be configured so the user cannot see any pins
in it. The user should be completely safe plugging the car in while
standing in a driving rain. The car should be double-insulated so that it's
impossible for a person to be shocked when touching any part of the car
under any circumstances, charging or not. For the 120 / 240 volt charging
cable, a built in weatherproof 5ma GFI should be provided at or near the
plug.
Batteries and connections should be completely enclosed and normally
inaccessible to anyone but service personnel. For example, a special dealer
tool might be required to remove battery covers.
Battery watering should be either automatic or not required - if automatic,
a device should notify the driver to refill the water tank when necessary.
No waste water or electrolyte should ever be released from the car.
A monitoring system should periodically check the condition of the battery,
including electrolyte levels if applicable, and warn the driver of any
fault. In case of fault the vehicle should be put into "limp home" mode
while making a best attempt to preserve the battery.
The battery should be warranted for the life of the vehicle, or at least for
10 years / 150,000 miles.
The instrumentation should include an accurate device ("fuel gauge") to show
the amount of remaining range in the battery. When the range falls to
"zero," the car should be set in "limp home" mode and allowed to operate at
low performance for as long as possible, consistent with preserving the
battery.
The car should be fitted with some kind of driver-operated gentle alert
other than the horn to warn pedestrians (because EVs are nearly silent).
The car should be fitted with a forward - reverse control that at least
approximates an automatic transmission's gearshift (something like Prius
might be OK) with a standard PRNDL sequence.
The gearshift's PARK position should hold the car in a manner comparable to
an automatic transmission's P position.
The gearshift's L postion should emulate the engine braking of an automatic
transmission's L position.
Releasing the brake in D or L position should cause the car to creep forward
slightly, like an ICE with an automatic transmission (Personally, I hate
this "feature" in the Prius, but I suspect that most "civilians" will be
more comfortable with it).
Releasing the accelerator when driving should cause light braking of some
kind that emulates the drag of an ICE's automatic transmission (need not be
dynamic or regenerative braking, mechanical brakes can be used - just as
long as the effect is present).
If significant dynamic or regenerative braking (other than release braking
above) is provided, it should be implemented by the brake pedal, not by
releasing the accelerator.
Some kind of aural feedback should tell the driver that he is applying
power. It need not be a simulated engine roar. A soft whine might be
adequate.
The car should not require any unfamiliar driving techniques (shift gears
later rather than sooner, as required with a series motor; never allow the
car to roll backwards to prevent controller damage; etc.).
Other suggestions? Emendations? Additions? Discussion?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Cor van de Water wrote:
especially if they were not abused, are not bulging from excessive
gassing or otherwise clearly mis-treated.
For what its worth, the end-wall bulging of lead acid batteries is
primarily due to grid growth (caused by corrosion of the grids).
Operating batteries at high currents and/or using them in hot climates
accelerates this effect.
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
For my conversion I'm reusing a set of parts from another car which met it's
mechanical end. I was looking over the contactor today and the contacts
inside the SW200 didn't seem to be fully smooth and shiny, and haven't been
in service for a couple of years. Is there anything I need to do to ensure
that it is working properly? What are the telltale signs of needing new
contacts?
I think I remember reading that sanding the contacts is a bad idea, so I
won't start there. Thanks for any advice!
Erik
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I was discussing how I was going to run the cable from the rear battery box
in my EV to the front, and I was thinking of using 2 runs of 3/4" flexible
armored conduit right next to eachother to help make some tight turns that a
single larger conduit would have trouble with. The cables won't be touching
eachother, but will be very close, and each conduit is armored. I could
connect the armor of each conduit together. Will this work to contain
radiated noise?
As a side note, are the battery cables all that noisy anyway? I would think
think the motor loop would be orders of magnitude worse and drown out any
emissions from the battery cable runs.
Thanks,
Erik
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/823
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> As a side note, are the battery cables all that noisy anyway? I
would think
> think the motor loop would be orders of magnitude worse and drown
out any
> emissions from the battery cable runs.
>
I think you're right - the pack supplies pure DC with only current as
the big variable (voltage much less so), the controller is all over
the map with stuff that "looks like" AC, even if it doesn't totally
reverse polarity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
e-mail test to the list. My posts seem to be on hold :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used to have the Tigerpaws on my truck.
The had great life, and delivered really good gas mileage, but they had
virtually no traction.
I can still remember going west on 50 and taking the ramp to go into
Annapolis and hearing my back tires squealing along the ramp like I was
doing 100mph or so, when actually I was doing 35-40. Happened EVERY time I
took that ramp. I put 300lbs in the bed every winter, just to move. They
lasted 90,000 miles.
I replaced them with a much more aggressive all season tire( unknown name -
real cheap). Traction was like night and day, mileage dropped (1-2mpg), and
they needed replacing at 40,000. But I liked them much more than the TP's,
just because of the traction gain
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:48 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [uselectricar] Tiger paw tires
>
> rick white wrote:
>
>
> Hi Chris,
> I do not believe the Tiger Paw is anything special, it is just what
> came with the trucks to begin with. However to gain efficiency I run
> them at 50 psi, and have done so for 6 years so far with no problems.
> Rick
>
> Hm. I need to drive this thing in the winter, so I am a bit leery of
getting
> the $40 tires. I'll give these a shot and see how they work out.
>
> I wonder though if I should keep the old Invicta tires. Even though they
are
> "dry rotted" they still look good and I'd hate to lose mileage.
Or is that
> stupid?
>
> Chris
>
>
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of talk about plating copper bus bars. Proceedure below looks pretty
complex. I have used a product which is very simple and works very well. It
is Kepro immersion tin plating solution. Tin plating copper is more common
than nickel, I believe. This process puts a film of 0.00002 inch thick. Not
too expensive and easy to use. Parts I have done 5 or 6 years ago look brand
new. Good luck.
Jeff
Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well there's also brush plating, which is how a lot of small stuff like
gold plated car emblems are done. It can produce good results if done
well, though generally it's an inferior process to tank plating.
However, it's much cheaper than filling a tank with solution. Having
gallons of sodium cyanide solution around is kinda scary too.
Also IIRC gold does not work well directly on top of copper. One is the
gold plating is somewhat porous and any corrosion underneath the gold
will be a problem, I also heard migration was another problem. The
solution was usually a barrier layer of nickle plated down first.
Nickle is irritating to many people's skin so jewelry more often uses a
more expensive rhodium barrier layer, except for the really cheap jewelry.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>Hello Mike,
>
>Plating the buss bars, is the way I would go. It is easy to do with the
>following setup:
>
>The plating tank can be acrylic fiberglass, polyethylene, polyprophlene or
>glass with a flat open surface which you can lay two lengths of 2 x 2 wood
>space apart on top of the container.
>
>The wood holds three solid copper wires by inserting them into drill holes
>in the wood. These rods are all space apart.
>
>The center rod, will be the hold the object you want to plate which is call
>the cathode which comes from a negative DC source.
>
>The outside two rods, will hold the metal you are plating from which is call
>the anode which comes from a positive DC source.
>
>The object you want to plate and the cathodes are suspended from the copper
>rods by using a small bare copper wire that is attach to the copper rods
>buss with alligator clips.
>
>You should always suspend the object you want to plate in the center of the
>bath and surround it with at least four cathodes. This gives it even
>plating on all sides.
>
>The four anodes can be stainless steel if you use a bath using the
>electrolyte contain the metal you want to plate with.
>
>I find its it easer to just use the anodes as the metal you want to plate,
>but sometimes this is a higher cost.
>
>Use distill water with 3 to 6 percent sodium per gallon solution using gold
>bars or you can use sodium gold cyanide in a 3.6 percent per gallon
>solution, a sodium cyanide of 3.6 to 7.2 percent per gallon and disodium
>phosphate of 3.6 to 10.8 percent per gallon.
>
>Use a battery with a maximum of 12 volts at a sustained current of 0 to 12
>amps for small items to 10 to 20 amps for larger items. Electroplating is
>normally done from 2 volts for a fine finish to 10 volts for a course
>finish. If you are plating with gold, you only need 15 to 20 seconds. Gold
>is rarely thicker than 0.0001 inch.
>
>If you want a thicker deposit, you must removed the object after 20 seconds,
>clean it and plating again.
>
>To clean the object you want to plate, you can reversed the current from the
>cathode to the anodes. It is best to do this in a separate cleaning tank.
>This only takes seconds.
>
>I started to clean copper bars one time, and I left them in too long, 30
>seconds and they look like they were sand blast, not smooth at all.
>
>If you used a electrolytes bath of the base metal you want to use, it is
>recommended that these solutions are heated from a range of 70 to 150 degree
>F. which the electroplating solutions to work at.
>
>I find it is just best to have the anodes as the plating metal.
>
>while you are at it, you can plate all you battery connectors, bolts, nuts
>and etc.
>
>Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Mike Phillips"
>To: "Roland Wiench"
>Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:25 PM
>Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
>
>
>
>
>>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello Mike,
>>>
>>>Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate a
>>>
>>>
>>high
>>
>>
>>>conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
>>>
>>>I found this out when I install all nickel plated fasteners on my
>>>
>>>
>>battery
>>
>>
>>>links. My copper bars at one time was coated with a very thin frosted
>>>silvery coating which is a normal coating for buss bars. I don't
>>>
>>>
>>have the
>>
>>
>>>specs on that type of alloy. This coating is normally used in
>>>
>>>
>>electrical
>>
>>
>>>connections which might be a alloy of copper and cadmium which gives
>>>
>>>
>>it a
>>
>>
>>>frosted silvery copper tone.
>>>
>>>
>>I think that is what my buss bars and nuts are coasted with. They have
>>very close to what you describe for the plating surface.
>>
>>I wish we knew what the plating was!!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Nickel is too high resistance, but has good corrosion resistance.
>>>
>>>
>>They are
>>
>>
>>>good for battery fasteners, but do not use them between the buss
>>>
>>>
>>bars and
>>
>>
>>>the battery terminals.
>>>
>>>Copper has too high corrosion factor.
>>>
>>>Silver which is a very good conductor but is subject to corrosion.
>>>
>>>Gold plating is a little less conductance then silver but it has a high
>>>resistance to corrosion.
>>>
>>>So I used gold plating fasters between my battery post and cadmium
>>>
>>>
>>plated
>>
>>
>>>links, which acts like a bi-metal connection which we used in our
>>>
>>>
>>overhead
>>
>>
>>>line electrical work. It works good.
>>>
>>>If we have buss bar links that does not fit the bolt holes just
>>>
>>>
>>right, we
>>
>>
>>>then drill them out a little larger and apply Tinning Butter and
>>>
>>>
>>apply a
>>
>>
>>>little lead to that area, or use a re-plating kit that you can plate
>>>
>>>
>>this
>>
>>
>>>link with any alloy you want.
>>>
>>>
>>Is tinning butter just pure tin + flux?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>You can get the plating solutions in the kit, or can purchase them
>>>
>>>
>>in large
>>
>>
>>>bulk from the Fisher Laboratory Scientific Supply Companies.
>>>
>>>I found that the contact area makes a good conduction path. After
>>>
>>>
>>we remove
>>
>>
>>>them after years of surface, the surface was still highly polish to
>>>
>>>
>>a mirror
>>
>>
>>>finish.
>>>
>>>
>>So plating a polished surface is the best idea? I made my plates from
>>polished copper for the old lead acid pack. Plating them would make
>>them a good bet for the Nicads.
>>
>>
>>
>>>You can can this Tinning Butter, Lead sticks, and even Cadmium
>>>
>>>
>>plating kits
>>
>>
>>>from www.eastwoodcompany.com
>>>
>>>
>>I haven't looked those guys up in years. Thanks for the reminder.
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The primary reason for plating is protection from NiCad electrolyte, KOH.
Nickel will do the job,
but I thought I read recently that tin isn't sufficient. I'll have to try a
little exposure test.
--- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A lot of talk about plating copper bus bars. Proceedure below looks pretty
> complex. I have
> used a product which is very simple and works very well. It is Kepro
> immersion tin plating
> solution. Tin plating copper is more common than nickel, I believe. This
> process puts a film
> of 0.00002 inch thick. Not too expensive and easy to use. Parts I have done
> 5 or 6 years ago
> look brand new. Good luck.
>
> Jeff
>
> Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well there's also brush plating, which is how a lot of small stuff like
> gold plated car emblems are done. It can produce good results if done
> well, though generally it's an inferior process to tank plating.
> However, it's much cheaper than filling a tank with solution. Having
> gallons of sodium cyanide solution around is kinda scary too.
>
> Also IIRC gold does not work well directly on top of copper. One is the
> gold plating is somewhat porous and any corrosion underneath the gold
> will be a problem, I also heard migration was another problem. The
> solution was usually a barrier layer of nickle plated down first.
> Nickle is irritating to many people's skin so jewelry more often uses a
> more expensive rhodium barrier layer, except for the really cheap jewelry.
>
> Danny
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> >Hello Mike,
> >
> >Plating the buss bars, is the way I would go. It is easy to do with the
> >following setup:
> >
> >The plating tank can be acrylic fiberglass, polyethylene, polyprophlene or
> >glass with a flat open surface which you can lay two lengths of 2 x 2 wood
> >space apart on top of the container.
> >
> >The wood holds three solid copper wires by inserting them into drill holes
> >in the wood. These rods are all space apart.
> >
> >The center rod, will be the hold the object you want to plate which is call
> >the cathode which comes from a negative DC source.
> >
> >The outside two rods, will hold the metal you are plating from which is call
> >the anode which comes from a positive DC source.
> >
> >The object you want to plate and the cathodes are suspended from the copper
> >rods by using a small bare copper wire that is attach to the copper rods
> >buss with alligator clips.
> >
> >You should always suspend the object you want to plate in the center of the
> >bath and surround it with at least four cathodes. This gives it even
> >plating on all sides.
> >
> >The four anodes can be stainless steel if you use a bath using the
> >electrolyte contain the metal you want to plate with.
> >
> >I find its it easer to just use the anodes as the metal you want to plate,
> >but sometimes this is a higher cost.
> >
> >Use distill water with 3 to 6 percent sodium per gallon solution using gold
> >bars or you can use sodium gold cyanide in a 3.6 percent per gallon
> >solution, a sodium cyanide of 3.6 to 7.2 percent per gallon and disodium
> >phosphate of 3.6 to 10.8 percent per gallon.
> >
> >Use a battery with a maximum of 12 volts at a sustained current of 0 to 12
> >amps for small items to 10 to 20 amps for larger items. Electroplating is
> >normally done from 2 volts for a fine finish to 10 volts for a course
> >finish. If you are plating with gold, you only need 15 to 20 seconds. Gold
> >is rarely thicker than 0.0001 inch.
> >
> >If you want a thicker deposit, you must removed the object after 20 seconds,
> >clean it and plating again.
> >
> >To clean the object you want to plate, you can reversed the current from the
> >cathode to the anodes. It is best to do this in a separate cleaning tank.
> >This only takes seconds.
> >
> >I started to clean copper bars one time, and I left them in too long, 30
> >seconds and they look like they were sand blast, not smooth at all.
> >
> >If you used a electrolytes bath of the base metal you want to use, it is
> >recommended that these solutions are heated from a range of 70 to 150 degree
> >F. which the electroplating solutions to work at.
> >
> >I find it is just best to have the anodes as the plating metal.
> >
> >while you are at it, you can plate all you battery connectors, bolts, nuts
> >and etc.
> >
> >Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Mike Phillips"
> >To: "Roland Wiench"
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:25 PM
> >Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello Mike,
> >>>
> >>>Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate a
> >>>
> >>>
> >>high
> >>
> >>
> >>>conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
> >>>
> >>>I found this out when I install all nickel plated fasteners on my
> >>>
> >>>
> >>battery
> >>
> >>
> >>>links. My copper bars at one time was coated with a very thin frosted
> >>>silvery coating which is a normal coating for buss bars. I don't
> >>>
> >>>
> >>have the
> >>
> >>
> >>>specs on that type of alloy. This coating is normally used in
> >>>
> >>>
> >>electrical
> >>
> >>
> >>>connections which might be a alloy of copper and cadmium which gives
> >>>
> >>>
> >>it a
> >>
> >>
> >>>frosted silvery copper tone.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I think that is what my buss bars and nuts are coasted with. They have
> >>very close to what you describe for the plating surface.
> >>
> >>I wish we knew what the plating was!!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Nickel is too high resistance, but has good corrosion resistance.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>They are
> >>
> >>
> >>>good for battery fasteners, but do not use them between the buss
> >>>
> >>>
> >>bars and
> >>
> >>
> >>>the battery terminals.
> >>>
> >>>Copper has too high corrosion factor.
> >>>
> >>>Silver which is a very good conductor but is subject to corrosion.
> >>>
> >>>Gold plating is a little less conductance then silver but it has a high
> >>>resistance to corrosion.
> >>>
> >>>So I used gold plating fasters between my battery post and cadmium
> >>>
> >>>
> >>plated
> >>
> >>
> >>>links, which acts like a bi-metal connection which we used in our
> >>>
> >>>
> >>overhead
> >>
> >>
> >>>line electrical work. It works good.
> >>>
> >>>If we have buss bar links that does not fit the bolt holes just
> >>>
> >>>
> >>right, we
> >>
> >>
> >>>then drill them out a little larger and apply Tinning Butter and
> >>>
> >>>
> >>apply a
> >>
> >>
> >>>little lead to that area, or use a re-plating kit that you can plate
> >>>
> >>>
> >>this
> >>
> >>
> >>>link with any alloy you want.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Is tinning butter just pure tin + flux?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>You can get the plating solutions in the kit, or can purchase them
> >>>
> >>>
> >>in large
> >>
> >>
> >>>bulk from the Fisher Laboratory Scientific Supply Companies.
> >>>
> >>>I found that the contact area makes a good conduction path. After
> >>>
> >>>
> >>we remove
> >>
> >>
> >>>them after years of surface, the surface was still highly polish to
> >>>
> >>>
> >>a mirror
> >>
> >>
> >>>finish.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>So plating a polished surface is the best idea? I made my plates from
> >>polished copper for the old lead acid pack. Plating them would make
> >>them a good bet for the Nicads.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>You can can this Tinning Butter, Lead sticks, and even Cadmium
> >>>
> >>>
> >>plating kits
> >>
> >>
> >>>from www.eastwoodcompany.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>I haven't looked those guys up in years. Thanks for the reminder.
> >>
> >>Mike
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
