EV Digest 5845
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: driving an A/C compressor
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Generator Trailer
by Aaron Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: driving an A/C compressor
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High School EV Project need some guidance
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Ni-Cads
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Generator Trailer
by "Jerry Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Generator Trailer
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ni-Cads
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: GVWR
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Tin Plating lugs for Ni-Cads
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Odd: Truck beats Prizm in range?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Odd: Truck beats Prizm in range?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EVs on TV in Australia. The Dateline footage, and WKTEC movie.
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Tin Plating lugs for Ni-Cads
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re; Odd: Truck beats Prizm in range?
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Batteries (8 volt vs 6 volt)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) unsubscribe
by "Bob" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV Loans
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Is this doable?
by "Ben S" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Joe. I couldn't remember exactly what Solectria's setup looked
like. It appears they've gone with a very high RPM motor, and also have a
custom (smaller) pulley attached to the compressor. Because of this,
their motor pulley is very small and due to its limited contact area with
the belt, they've gone with a toothed belt to prevent slippage.
Altogether this seems to be a relatively compact and efficient setup, but
it involves some modifications to the compressor that I don't think I
could do myself.
My approach will be to retain the large stock compressor pulley, and
therefore I'd like to use the same belt type. Fortunately, I've also got
less reduction to achieve, so I can use a motor pulley that's a bit larger
and should work well with a common ribbed belt. This will be cheaper and
easier to replace than the belt on the Solectria unit -- just pick one up
at an auto parts store.
--chris
On Thu, September 7, 2006 3:33 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> Chris; Check out item # 140001465537 on E bay this may give you some
> idea's for a home brew. If you look at the picture closely you can see
> that it took a 1 HP motor. this is a dead item but it may show you how to
> do
> it.
>
> Ol_ joe in Cincy.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 10:51 AM
> Subject: driving an A/C compressor
>
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> I'd like to drive an air conditioning compressor with an electric motor
>> (separate from the traction motor). As much as I'd prefer to drive the
>> compressor directly, I am guessing I'll end up driving it with a belt
>> because A) I got a good deal on a 2HP motor but it will need some
>> reduction to be useful, and B) I've been told that the pulley on the
>> compressor is engaged to the bearing on that end, and so operating
>> without
>> the pulley might cause shaft seal leakage. Two questions:
>>
>> First, has anyone modified a stock automotive compressor for direct
>> drive
>> from an electric motor? What was necessary? Is the bit about the pulley
>> and bearing true?
>>
>> Second, if I'm to drive this thing with a belt on the existing
>> compressor
>> pulley, I'll need a 2.5" - 3" diameter 6-groove K-section pulley for an
>> automotive ribbed flat belt. Preferably one that takes an SK style
>> bushing. I've searched and searched (and searched!) and I've had no
>> luck
>> in finding anyone online selling K-section pulleys in a decent selection
>> of sizes. McMaster's only ribbed flat belt pulleys are J-section (too
>> small) and the K-section pulleys sold on Lister generator sites are far
>> too large in diameter, and too heavy. Where would I find a pulley of
>> the
>> size and type that I need?
>>
>> If I could afford it, I'd be tempted to go buy myself a lathe... :o)
>>
>> --chris
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I see the benefit as being able to every once in a while drive an electric car
(that has a short range) for long distances. If for the most part the
electric vehicle is driven without the trailer then the emission should be
greatly reduced from that of an ICE engine.
I dont really understand the push back on this concept. It seems to me that a
generator could be made more efficient than an ICE. Im not sure what kind of
gas mileage you would get, but as long as its in a good range (>20 mpg) then
the use of the trailer for long trips would make sense. Plus you get the
added advantage of having an electric car when you get to your destination.
Is there something that I am missing?
Aaron
On Thursday 07 September 2006 09:58 pm, Phil Marino wrote:
> Every so often someone asks this question. The problem with a generator
> trailer is that you will produce MANY times the pollutants of an equivalent
> ICE car. ( and probably twice the CO2). A modern ICE car engine is very
> sophisticated and carefully controlled by it's computer. Any small
> non-automotive engine will not even be close in cleanliness of running or
> efficiency.
>
> So, you have to ask what the benefit would be.
>
> Phil
>
> From: brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Generator Trailer
> >Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Greeting fellow EVers,
> >I've been playing with the idea of a generator trailer
> >for a little while now. I have the trailer, yes that
> >was the easy part. I am having great troubles finding
> >an affordable (<$1000) diesel/Bio diesel generator or
> >ever just the engine and I can attach the gen head
> >later. I didn't go through all this trouble just to
> >burn gas :p
> >I'm guessing I need 10-15KW. any suggestions? how are
> >the rest of you doing this?
> >thank you for your input!
> >
> >Brian
> >81'Bradley GTII
> >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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> http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, September 6, 2006 10:03 pm, Jude Anthony said:
> Chris Robison wrote:
>> from an electric motor? What was necessary? Is the bit about the pulley
>> and bearing true?
>>
> We mounted a treadmill motor via a pulley. We had heard the same thing
> about the bearing, so decided not to risk it.
Thanks, at least I guess I'm not way out in left field.
>> Where would I find a pulley of the
>> size and type that I need?
>>
> Our compressor needed only a 1/2" v-belt.
I'm trying to stick with the flat belt, not only because my current
compressor has one, but because I understand they're a bit more efficient
as they are more flexible and operate with less friction.
> My 1.5HP motor over-revved, turning the brushes glowing orange in
> seconds. I'm not sure why; it appears to be a 120V permanent magnet
> motor. Anyone willing to say if this ebay motor would work instead from
> 144V of Optimas?
> http://cgi.ebay.com/DC-Treadmill-Motor-permanent-magnet-external-fan-2HP_W0QQitemZ130024509305QQihZ003QQcategoryZ26226QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I think the main problem you'll have with this is the speed. With this
motor you only get those 2HP at 6000 RPM, so you'll have to reduce it
quite a bit to get your compressor turning at an efficient speed
(1500-2000 RPM). That means you'll probably have a very small motor
pulley, and that may not provide enough grab to use a ribbed belt. With a
V-belt, small pulleys aren't very effective at all. Also, the insulation
on this motor is class B, which only gives you up to 130C. Make sure it
runs cool.
I'm not sure about the glowing orange brushes, but this does not sound
like it was due to over-revving. It sounds like under-revving, leading to
way too much current flowing through the brushes. Anyone with a clue care
to comment on that?
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing for sure is if you do go with an Electroautomotive kit get the
upgrade to the Zilla K1 156v. There is only a 200 dollar difference between
the Curtis 1231C and the Zilla and a world of difference in performance.
You won't be sorry & instead of 120vdc you can go 160 volts(I think the 156v
Zilla could take 4 more volts but check the owners manual to be sure. You
could just add 6 more batteries but you would be getting into a very heavy
Corolla. Otherwise sounds like a great project. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 4:04 PM
Subject: High School EV Project need some guidance
> Hello,
> My name is Andrew Kloppel and I am the Project Manager for my high
school's
> engineering class, in which we are converting a 5 speed manual
transmission
> 1988 Toyota Corolla station wagon to electric. We are going to keep the
> standard transmission, however we still have some questions and concerns
> regarding the options we have surrounding things such as batteries and
motor
> size. We are going to be getting our DC motor kit through Electro
> Automotive, in which they offer either an 8" or 9" motor which we will run
> on a full 120V system. We collectively decided that the car should have
at
> least a 70 mile range, and a top speed of at least 65 mph. Providing that
> we have a rough project budget of about 10K and, we will be spending about
> 5K on the motor kit, we will also need to decide on the voltage and type
of
> batteries we will buy.
>
> Specifically our concerns include the following areas:
> 1) Considering our personal goals for the car, would 6V or 12V batteries
be
> better for us, and what type (lead-acid, lithium ion, etc.), and also any
> certain manufacturers? Why?
> 2) Also would the 8" or 9" motor be better for us? Why?
> 3) What would you recommend as far as power for accessories (stereo,
> headlights)? We have heard of having separate batteries for accessories,
are
> there any advantages/disadvantages to this setup? Why?
>
> We would appreciate any information you could provide.
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew Kloppel
> Project Manager
> Seabury Hall Engineering
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris, I'm buying them from James Weirick who got them from Saft's Lou
Magnarela. So should I chrome plate my lugs/links or just tin them with
solder? It will be nice to drop 240 lbs in the Cushman even if they have a
drinking problem requiring weekly watering (15 cycles).
Thanks,
Mark
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected] Subject: Re: Tin Plating lugs for Ni-Cads Plain
Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Mark E. Hanson wrote: > Hi, > > I'm getting 14ea STM5-180's over the
week-end and thought why can't you just tin plate the lugs with the solder &
a torch? Seams like a lot easier than tinning chemically. Very cool. Are
these those Ebay batteries? I'm still imagining a S10 truck with 50 of those
batteries. Mmmmm....... Chris
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron, I belive it should not be poop, pooped , I had several gen set that I
used in my bussines an 2 of the unit had 3 gal tanks an we could run them
all day ( 7-8 hrs) at 2000 to 3000w on 1 fulling so at 45mph an you run 8
hr, sounds like good mpg to me, YES it will add a little polltion to the air
but I do also every time I breath, cook, work up a sweat, etc..or use my
F-150 to haul 3-4 ElecTraks to a show. The ev I'm building (1/4 scale 1929
Ford Woody pk) will have a trailer hitch on her. Just my 2 cents
Jerry NW Ohio
----- Original Message -----
From: "Aaron Richardson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: Generator Trailer
I see the benefit as being able to every once in a while drive an electric
car
(that has a short range) for long distances. If for the most part the
electric vehicle is driven without the trailer then the emission should be
greatly reduced from that of an ICE engine.
I dont really understand the push back on this concept. It seems to me
that a
generator could be made more efficient than an ICE. Im not sure what kind
of
gas mileage you would get, but as long as its in a good range (>20 mpg)
then
the use of the trailer for long trips would make sense. Plus you get the
added advantage of having an electric car when you get to your
destination.
Is there something that I am missing?
Aaron
On Thursday 07 September 2006 09:58 pm, Phil Marino wrote:
Every so often someone asks this question. The problem with a generator
trailer is that you will produce MANY times the pollutants of an
equivalent
ICE car. ( and probably twice the CO2). A modern ICE car engine is very
sophisticated and carefully controlled by it's computer. Any small
non-automotive engine will not even be close in cleanliness of running or
efficiency.
So, you have to ask what the benefit would be.
Phil
From: brian baumel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Generator Trailer
>Date: Sat, 19 Aug 2006 10:41:02 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Greeting fellow EVers,
>I've been playing with the idea of a generator trailer
>for a little while now. I have the trailer, yes that
>was the easy part. I am having great troubles finding
>an affordable (<$1000) diesel/Bio diesel generator or
>ever just the engine and I can attach the gen head
>later. I didn't go through all this trouble just to
>burn gas :p
>I'm guessing I need 10-15KW. any suggestions? how are
>the rest of you doing this?
>thank you for your input!
>
>Brian
>81'Bradley GTII
>
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live Spaces is here! Its easy to create your own personal Web
site.
http://spaces.live.com/signup.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Sep 2006 at 9:53, Aaron Richardson wrote:
> It seems to me that a
> generator could be made more efficient than an ICE.
Comparing a generator to an engine is kind of like comparing a motor to a
controller. Both are part of a drive system, but not comparable. But I'll
assume you mean that you think an APU (genset) driving an EV should be more
efficient than an ordinary ICE car.
You'd think so - but believe me, you'd have one heck of a time making it so.
I have to give the automakers credit - they've done a remarkable job in
cleaning up auto engines' emissions, at least the ones that are regulated.
For their size and power, they're remarkably efficient. (US cars have lost
ground on fuel efficiency in recent years, but they have a long way to go to
hit the 1070s when the average mpg of US cars was around 13).
Thirty or 40 years ago, you could tune an ICE so it would run at a single
speed, and make it run quite a bit cleaner and more efficiently than it
would run at varying speeds. In those days it made sense to essentially
have an electric transmission (series hybrid) - the engine could run at its
peak efficiency speed for a while, charging up the battery, then shut down
for a while.
That scheme could theoretically improve efficiency. When hobbyists built
hybrids on this design however they, shall we say, varied in their results.
It's hard enough to optimize an EV or ICE, and optimizing both at the same
time is a very complex process. Just ask Toyota's or Honda's engineers.
It's tough for seat of the pants engineers to get it right.
Today, to put it bluntly, we hobbyists are much further behind the auto
companies. Auto engines are vastly improved with microprocessor control and
sophisticated tuning. Unless you're an automotive engineer with emissions
control background, it's very unlikely that you can build an APU or series
hybrid which even comes close to matching Detroit's >worst< polluter -
unless you use Detroit's engine. And if you do that, why not just use the
engine to run the car?
As for efficiency - well, let me give you an example. AC Propulsion has
some darn good engineers. About 10 years ago, they built a range extender
for their Honda Civic conversions and drove it for years (probably still
do). It was based on a motorcycle engine. I don't know what the emissions
were like - I don't recall ever seeing that information - but IIRC it got 30-
35 mpg on the highway. Remember, these are darn good engineers and they
surely know how to make and extraordinarily efficient APU. But my same-
generation Civic VX still gets much better highway mileage - 48 mpg.
For most people, it makes much more sense to have an EV for local travel and
an ICE for long trips. This gives you the best of both worlds. Such a
scheme works nicely with 2-vehicle families. If you're a single person
and/or can't afford two vehicles, you may be able to share an ICE with
someone else.
But if you're really sold on the concept, go for it! Build it. Take it
down to your local emissions station and get it tested. Track your
emissions and fuel usage for 6 months or a year, and average it out per
mile. Then come back here and show us that we're wrong!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Sep 2006 at 8:34, Mark E. Hanson wrote:
> I'm buying them from James Weirick who got them from Saft's Lou
> Magnarela.
I thought he killed his Safts. I seem to recall he literally melted the
tops of at least some of them with overcharging.
I also thought you were concerned about the automatic watering system
missing a cell. Have you found a way to make sure that won't happen?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:09 PM 9/7/2006, you wrote:
I'm not so sure about this GVWR thing, as most conversions are
going over it. Kinda worried of safety/long term reliability.
What do you think are the top most aerodynamic cars to use for
conversion that can also hold the most weight for batteries without
stressing the frame?
What are the weakest points, besides suspension and brakes? How much
can you go over GVWR?
The Voltsrabbit comes in a little over GVW without
passengers. However, we have had some on the road for 10 and 15
years with no structural fatigue issues. We have also had a couple
of these in collisions, with no unusual safety issues. The
suspension is beefed up, the power brakes are maintained, and we do
recommend using the most aggressive brakes available for the car. We
drove the prototype for years in the mountains with no braking issues.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've used both and plating using chemicals is much easier and consistent.
It looks very good. I don't know if there is liquid nickel. I use liquid
tin and it has held up very well. Lawrence Rhodes...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:30 AM
Subject: Tin Plating lugs for Ni-Cads
> Hi,
>
> I'm getting 14ea STM5-180's over the week-end and thought why can't you
just tin plate the lugs with the solder & a torch? Seams like a lot easier
than tinning chemically.
>
> cheers,
> Mark
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
rates starting at 1¢/min.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WHat is the difference in sag voltasge while driving? The NiCads should
be a bit stiffer than PbA. Since power (and energy) is related to voltage
x current, a stiffer pack will use less current for the same power/energy.
That combined with lower weigh and perhaps lower rolling resistance is
probably the reason.
> Ok, this is somewhat weird. Yesterday I took the S10 (300v NiCd) out to
> the Double T diner. Normally this is an 8-9ah drive in the Prizm (300v
> Hawker Pb). However when I looked at the E-meter, it read 6ah down.
>
> Why? Is the lower weight of the battery pack *THAT* big of a range
> improver? The packs have the same base voltage, and I do hope that the
> truck is less aerodynamic than a Prizm.
>
> Chris
>
>
--
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you have a tail wind both ways? Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Christopher Zach" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: Odd: Truck beats Prizm in range?
> How many miles did you go and at what speed and conditions? Then I can
> tell you how it compares to my truck.
>
> BTW these heavy old nicads are 25% heavier than my nimh pack was, and
> they were wrapped in sheet metal and hardware as well. Dang patents....
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, this is somewhat weird. Yesterday I took the S10 (300v NiCd) out to
> > the Double T diner. Normally this is an 8-9ah drive in the Prizm (300v
> > Hawker Pb). However when I looked at the E-meter, it read 6ah down.
> >
> > Why? Is the lower weight of the battery pack *THAT* big of a range
> > improver? The packs have the same base voltage, and I do hope that the
> > truck is less aerodynamic than a Prizm.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff writes:
> The theater manager was elated with what we had accomplished and
> we heard nothing but positive comments form the public. I think the
> main thing was that the public could talk to real people
> driving EVs on a daily basis. Can you rally the EVers in Sydney?
No good rallying the Sydney EVers on this one. Checking the website, although
there is a Village Cinema in NSW, it is in Albury -- about 350 miles from
Sydney. Hopefully our southern friends in Victoria (which has a strong AEVA
presence) and Tasmania can answer the call.
We Sydney guys are pretty much in the same boat as Tim in South Australia as
far as WKtEC goes.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did your liquid tin ever get used with nicads? Where did you get it?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I've used both and plating using chemicals is much easier and
consistent.
> It looks very good. I don't know if there is liquid nickel. I use
liquid
> tin and it has held up very well. Lawrence Rhodes...........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 5:30 AM
> Subject: Tin Plating lugs for Ni-Cads
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I'm getting 14ea STM5-180's over the week-end and thought why
can't you
> just tin plate the lugs with the solder & a torch? Seams like a lot
easier
> than tinning chemically.
> >
> > cheers,
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great
> rates starting at 1¢/min.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
When fun things like this have happen to me, I try to repeat them
a couple of times to see if they were real or not.
While I recommend that every conversion have an emeter (i.e.: Link
10) I have experienced some non-standard readings.
My emeter is of the cruising control vintage. I have experienced
the
emeter winking out on me, resetting its self to zero ahs, and
giving
odd readings (like yours). While these occurrences are rare, they
do happen.
I don't believe my emeter is losing it from old age. There might
be issues with the supply voltage to the emeter that might be
causing its erratic behavior.
Are you sure you didn't have a tail wind that day? ;-)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
I can't remember who said it, but one of my favorite quotes is: "In
Theory, Theory and Practice are the same. In Practice, they are not."
Theoretically you are correct. In practice. the vast majority that go
with 8V b atteries are dissapointed. Mostly this is because they use 8V
batteries to get a higher voltage in order to get better performance. In
order to get better performance, you have to pull more power from the
batteries and they then live a short life.
If you want the same life, then you can only pull the same(or similar)
power, which means the same performance, so what is the point?
Even if you use the same controller, you still have to pay the extra cost
of the batteries.
You can get decent life out of 8V batteries, I did. My truck came with 15
8V batteries and I got another two years of life out of them. This is
because my controller limited current to 300-350 amps max and I rarely
took it past 250 amps. Then again my truck to almost a minute and a half
to reach 60 mph and topped out at about 70. This is in a conversion that
only weighed 3200 lbs.
Now that I'm back in the states I'm going to finally replace my batteries.
I am definitely NOT going to use 8V batteries.
You seem pretty set on using them. I wish you luck, keep your current
down and you should get decent life.
Cheers, Pete.
P.s. Contactors and wiring should be sized by maximum potential current,
not average expected current.
> Peter -
>
> good, thoughtful analysis - but I have a couple of comments.
>
> First, a quote from Nawaz ( a couple of years ago)
>
> "I have not cycle life tested our US8VGC, but I expect these to deliver
> similar
> number of cycles as the US2200, since the 8 VOlt product is made from the
> same
> plates as the US2200. The 8 Volt battery has 15 plates per cell and the
> US2200
> has 19 of the same plates per cell. The DOD for the 8 Volt battery would
> be
> same
> at 56 Ampere current draw as it is for the US2200 at the 75 Ampere draw.
> At
> 75Ampere draw the 8 Volt will give even more cycles since now the DOD is
> shallower.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Nawaz Qureshi "
>
>
> My first comment is that, since the 8 volters have 15 plates per cell and
> the 6 volters 19 of the same plates per cell, 400 amps from a 6 volter is
> equivalent to 316 amps from an 8 volter ( not 250 amps).
>
> One might expect that 300 amps would be the equivalent current ( 6V /8V
> *400) but the 8 volters have a few more total plates, and so are a few
> pounds heavier and have a bit more energy ( and power) available per
> battery. This is a slight advantage for the 8 volters, if you are space
> rather than weight limited.
>
> As to the the extra cost for a larger controller, my
> conversion-in-progress
> is an Echo, which will have 13 8 volts GC batteries. So, I can still use
> a
> 1221C easily ( nominal pack voltage is 104 volts, so I could even add 2
> more batteries is I ever wanted to).
>
> This small pack will result in the batteries being 30% of the final
> vehicle
> weight ( including my weight). A little light on batteries, but not too
> bad
> for a local driver, especially since this car has the surprisingly low
> Cd of 0.26. I'm currently driving an ICE Echo, and regularly get > 45
> MPG
> in mixed driving, with some care in driving gently. This is with Nokian
> NRT2's tires. So, this is a pretty efficient car.
>
>
> One of the big advantages of using 8 volters is that the pack wiring
> current
> will be, in general 3/4 of that using 6 volters. When you consider that
> the
> power losses in the cable are proportional to the square of the current,
> this is a big difference. I can use one size smaller cabling and still
> have
> lower cable power losses. That will save me a few pounds and dollars, and
> be
> easier to handle and route.
>
> Also, the dangers of a terminal meltdown are much less. For the same
> terminal resistance, the heat generated will be 9/16, (or, a bit more than
> half) of the heat generated in each terminal connection with a 6V battery
> systems and the same number of batteries, drawing the same power.)
>
> And, I can get away with lower current contactors ( the EV200's will be
> more
> than adequate). The smaller contactors, alone, will save me as much as
> the
> difference in battery cost.
>
> The disadvantages are, as you say: somewhat higher initial battery cost,
> and
> lower battery life, IF I can'tcontrol my right foot.
>
> And, another minor disadvantage is that there are more battery cells to
> check and water.
>
> Phil
>
>>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: [email protected]
>>Subject: Re: Batteries (8 volt vs 6 volt)
>>Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 10:24:16 -0700 (MST)
>>
>>Ok let's look at this from a complete systems perspective.
>>
>>Starting with the batteries: T-875 (8V) vs T-105(6V)
>>They both weigh roughly the same
>>They will both live roughly the same life IF (big IF) you draw the same
>>power from both.
>>Last time I checked, the T-875 cost about 40% more than the T-105.
>>
>>Controllers: Curtis 1221C vs 1231C
>>1221C 72-120V @ 400 amps, ~$1000
>>1231C 96-144V @ 500 amps, ~$1400
>>
>>So in order to use the higher voltage pack of batteries that can handle
>>less current you have to spend $400 more on a controller that can draw
>>MORE current.
>>
>>If we use the same controller for both packs then the higher voltage pack
>>will only have a advantage at higher RPMs. At low motor RPMs
>> acceleration
>>is limited by the controllers max motor current. Until you come out of
>>motor current at the lower voltage you won't see any advantage from the
>>higher voltage pack.
>>After that you will only see an advantage by drawing more current than
>> the
>>8V batteries can safely handle.
>>
>>If you couple a 400 amp controller with batteries that can safely handle
>>400 amps, then you can't kill them by drawing to much current. If you
>>couple a 500 amp controller to batteries that can sefely handle 250
>>amps...well the results should be obvious.
>>
>>So yes, going with a higher voltage pack of 8V will give you better
>>performance, but using it will cost you the life of your pack.
>>
>>Yes, you could drive around with one eye on the amp meter to make sure
>> you
>>never draw to much current, but what is the point? You spend almost
>>$1,000 more to have a vehicle where you must divide your attention
>> between
>>driving and monitoring your batteries and you end up with NO extra
>>performance.
>>
>>P.S. someone might point out that using the 1231C will give you more
>>acceleration at lower RPMs than the 1221C because it can handle more
>>current. Quite true, but you can also use the 1231C with the 6V batts
>>and, while it might shorten their life span (if you're not careful), it
>>won't shorten them as much as the 8V batts because you are only asking
>>them to handle 40% more current than they safely can instead of 100%
>> more.
>>
>>Then again, I don't think you could get 500 amps out of T-875s except
>> when
>>they are new and freshly charged. Otherwise they will drop below
>> terminal
>>voltage. Of course if you don't pay attention to this, that's another
>>good way to kill your batteries quick.
>>
>
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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Among the AustinEV crowd a common theme of discussion is "I want an EV,
but I can't afford to pay cash." I think most American buy a car with
credit, and even if you already have the vehicle, you can't afford the
components. Banks don't give out loans for EVs because there is no good
method for determining the vehicle's value. If you are lucky you can
get an unsecured loan, but at higher rates. I think a lot of us build
our EVs with credit cards, and a lot more of us have half an EV in the
garage awaiting some part we can't afford.
I think I have a solution:
There is an online service offered by http://www.prosper.com. People
needing to borrow money post a short request explaining why and what
amount they need, and a interest rate they are willing to pay. Anyone
can be a lender. Lenders do not have to loan the full amount, the
system automatically consolidates lenders into a single loan.
So here one example:
Bob the EV owner wants to replace his dead Curtis with a Zilla, but
can't afford the $2000 upfront cost, so he needs a loan of $2000. He
signs up to prosper as a borrower and posts "My EV is dead and I need to
buy a Zilla" Prosper posts Bob request, and a letter grade of Bob's
credit score.
Now a group of lenders (lets says a 20 people) each bidding an interest
rate and an amount (say $100) to loan to Bob. Once enough lenders have
bid, Prosper sets up the loan, and credits Bob's payments over the three
year life of the loan back to the lenders in proportion to how much they
loaned Bob. If Bob fails to pay the lenders take the loss, but the
lenders can spread small amounts among several different borrowers to
reduce the risk.
Since the lenders are members of the EV community (or people who trust
the judgement of the community) we know that a Zilla has a high resale
value and if Bob can't pay, that the Zilla can be resold to recover the
loan. (This is something a bank does not know as well)
The same idea could be used for borrowing the purchase of of a used EV,
or all of the components for a EV conversion.
Please note, there are risks, costs, taxes and a whole bunch more going
on here. After all, this is an investment. Read the details on
prosper's site before making any judgements. I am not responsible for
anything, YMMV, etc...)
So anyhow.. this seems to be a mechanism where a bunch of people can
offer to loan small amounts of money to help others in the EV community.
Discussions of this should probably be kept off this list. I've setup a
mailing list here:
http://lists.mindbent.org/listinfo.cgi/evloans-mindbent.org
Please join if you have any interest in being our first borrower,
lending or just want to comment on the whole nutty idea.
Full disclosure: I don't have any experience with Prosper, I have no
idea if its good, bad or ugly but I do plan on making some small loans
thru it. I apparently get some form of finders fee for anyone who
borrows and is vouched for by me (via their Group system) . I doubt
this is a significant sum of money (they didn't mention it until late in
the setup process), and any proceeds will go to either AustinEV or be
loaned out to EV related borrowers. I really don't plan on profiting
from this, honest. Moderators can still hurt me if they feel the need.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, thanks for all the info. To answer some of your questions:
The reason that I'm not telling you the type of car yet is that I'm
afraid people will dismiss it outright when they hear what it is. :)
The curb weight is 3500 lbs, which is a lot for a 2-seater, but I've
made a list of everything I can remove and lighten, and I think I can
knock about 1200 lbs off of it. Add 200 lbs for the WarP 11", and
that puts it around 2500 lbs with no batteries. That leaves me with
1000 lbs for batteries, brackets, controller, charger, etc. before I'm
back to the original curb weight. I'd like to keep it around the
original curb weight so that the handling and suspension are not
affected too much, but I can go a few hundred pounds over if I have to
to meet my goals.
The rear gear ratio is open at this point. How fast do I want to be
spinning the motor at 70 mph? The rear tires are about 28", so a 4.56
rear at 70 mph would be 3800 rpm. A 4.11 would be 3450 rpm. I want a
low enough gear to launch well with just one gear, and I don't need a
100 mph top end or anything.
I'm still not quite clear on how the series-parallel switching works,
so I didn't realize that was only for two motors. Thanks for the
clarification. I got an A in my Circuits class, but that was a long
time ago so my electrical knowledge is fuzzy and we didn't study EVs.
:) I guess I could switch to two 9" motors instead of the 11", but
that would add 100 lbs and more complexity. I'm a fan of the "Keep It
Simple, Stupid" rule, so 1 motor and direct drive is very appealing.
I'm thinking I could stuff 900 lbs of lead acid AGMs in there now,
which would make the curb weight around 3500 lbs, like the original
curb weight. I'd have less than 1/3 of the weight as batteries, so I
know it's less than ideal, but hopefully I could squeeze 25 miles out
of that, especially with some aero mods and light wheels and LRR
tires. Then in a few years when that pack dies, maybe lithiums will
be cheaper and I could upgrade to a more powerful pack with the same
(or less) weight.
I just want a fast, fun EV that will get me to work and back if I
don't put my foot in it too hard. And I'd like to be able to smoke
the tires when I want to and I don't need the full range. I'm not
expecting Zombie-like performance out of such a heavy car, but I'd
settle for Zombie Light. Less acceleration, looks great. ;)
Ben
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Is this doable?
Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 23:09:21 -0400
> --- Ben S <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> - 20-25 miles realistic range to get me to work and
>> back
>> - fast, sporty car that accelerates well and will
>> cruise up to 70 mph
>> on the highway
>>
This is on the edge of what can be done with lead , I'm finnishing up a
hiynda with a impluse 9 and 1k 300v zilla 25 orbitals . I think it would do
25 miles at 60 , and would do an easy 70 .
>> And some details on the car and components I have in
>> mind (I won't say
>> what kind of car yet, but it's a 2-seater sports
>> car, and one that I
>> haven't seen converted before):
may be there's a reason , is there a reason your not telling the type. ?
>> - car will weigh about 2500 lbs with everything but
>> me (200 lbs) and
>> the batteries (which I haven't decided on yet)
and how much of that is batteries .
>> - has a full frame with enough room and a beefy
>> suspension to carry
>> quite a few batteries
>> - drag coefficient is about 0.35, relatively low
>> frontal area, and I
>> hope to do some aero mods like a belly pan
>> - planning on a TransWarP 11" motor
>> - direct drive with a 4.56 (or so) ratio in the rear
>> end
I had one of these :-) you may have seen it on
http://www.grassrootsev.com/mits.htm
I ended up leaving it in 4 th gear with a 3.8 rear , . I would go more this
way , a 4.56 is going to be less top end, If the motor is spinning fast you
won't be able to push the amp through it becuse of the BEMF , so you won't
have the power up hi ,
>> - Zilla 2K controller (for series-parallel switching
>> and w/ reversing
>> contactors)
>>
No series paralle switching with one motor .
>> I'd like to keep the battery weight to about 600-800
>> lbs.
well if the car weighs 2500 with batteries and you have 800 in batteries ,
then your distance could be more that just 25 miles .
>>
>> - What batteries would you recommend to power the
>> Zilla and 11" motor,
I don't think the motor or controller care ,
>> and would this combo give me good acceleration with
>> a car this heavy?
2500 is heavy ?
>> - Will I be able to drive up to 25 miles on a
>> 600-800 lb battery pack?
if the car weights 2500, yep
>> - Is this a realistic conversion, or should I scrap
>> this idea and look
>> for a lighter car instead?
Lighter , I'm wondering what this car is ./
>> mind, but if it's unrealistic, so be it. I read
>> about Jeff Shanab
>> being disappointed in the performance of his 300ZX
>> recently and it has
>> me worried that maybe this car is too heavy to meet
>> my expectations.
>>
Was Jeff disappointed ? I though that was me , I did a 300zx and stuffed 26
golf cart batteries in it , now that was a heavy car. I'd like to ride in
Jeff's and see the difference , he used 12v orbitals and I'm sure was a lot
lighter that mine. He's also running a higher voltage controller which
should give more power. Mine I set at 500 battery amps . One thing about the
300zx is that it feels very good on the road , it handles the weight well .
But when I talk about it I'm comparing it to the other cars I've done .
Steve Clunn
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