EV Digest 5849
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cheap EV motor
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Generator Trailer
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Generator Trailer
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Truck beats Prizm in range?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Generator Trailer
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: battery costs/pricing
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) LEM Module use for current monitoring
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: jack & heintz electric motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) battery costs/pricing
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: LEM Module use for current monitoring
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LEM Module use for current monitoring
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Building A Performace EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: OT: web host and domain name registrars
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: LEM Module use for current monitoring
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Building A Performace EV
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Generator Trailer
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: LEM Module use for current monitoring
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Generator Trailer
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) TM4, Cleanova III, Dassault, Heuliez, clean-auto.com, Plug and Go
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Permanent Interconnections needed
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Diseasel Locos, WAS Re: Generator Trailer vs, Diesel Electric
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Building A Performace EV
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Building A Performace EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: e-meter installation
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Generator Trailer
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Satisfying performance.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I need to see some internal pictures with measurements to compare but this
motor looks like it can take a LOT of voltage
commutator is 4.25 inches in diameter (3 inch wide bushing area)and is made
up of (1/8 inch thick?) plates of copper running the length of the rotor,
not wires flattened and pressed to the shaft, no weakness there
bushings come in 4 pairs, 90 degrees apart around the commutator, each pair
is made up of 2 almost black bushings with 1/2 by 1 inch contact area to run
on the commutator (total of 1/2 by 2 inches)
camera is being a pain so I made a small jpg
fear my leet photoshop skilz :op
drop me an email if you want to see it, I'll get my camera up in a couple
days and post some actual pictures, hehe
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 12:55 PM
Subject: Re: Cheap EV motor
Jeff Major wrote:
I agree my ball park calculation is probably conseravtive for
several reasons, but not the one you mention. Series motor torque
is only proprotional to square of armature current below knee of
saturation curve. High loads, approaching stall, will certianly
take mmf higher than knee and no longer provide proprotional
increase in flux, so the squared rule will not apply.
The specs for the motor being discussed (Surplus Center item# 10-2120,
compound wound, 24v, 72a, 149 lbs.) are clearly well under its actual
ratings. 72 amps is nowhere near its saturation current. Therefore, the
torque = current squared approximation is better than torque = current.
Yes, at high currents, saturation does reduce the torque-per-amp
relationship. However, motors have air gaps, so saturation occurs
gradually.
Here is the torque-vs-amps relationship for a similar motor, a GE
5BT1346B50, which weighs 170 lbs:
torque current
ft.lbs amps
5 110
10 135
20 185
40 295
60 400
80 500
100 590
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
Aaron
This subject seems to raise as much emotion from the group as the AC vs. DC
battle. I'm with you
and John L. and I'd like to give it a go eventually. While everyone seems to
love the pusher
trailer, I'm not convinced it's the only practical solution. Actually, I think
it's kind of scary.
And just because generator's have been done poorly on the cheap doesn't mean
they can't be done
correctly for a reasonable price. AC Propulsion did it (or over did it, not
cheap). I hope you
give it a try and report your findings.
Good luck,
Dave Cover
PS There's still a 12kw gen head on eBay right now, item 280025145164.
--- Aaron Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Want emotion? I'm still a closet fan of the idea of a true parallel
hybrid variation for range extending...
Using a light, low HP engine (10-20HP) mechanically linked to the output
shaft of the electric motor (or the secondary shaft). Torque transfer is
handled by a basic one-way RPM based clutch, the kind used in the larger
pumps or gokarts. ICE off, output side of the clutch freewheels. ICE on
above the RPM threshold, usually about 2200, ICE transmits torque to the
motor shaft. The electric motor would always be used in this setup.
This is merely to double or triple range while traveling at higher (45+
MPH) speeds. I'm not saying it will work well, but I think it would be
cool to try.
I've pondered the possibility of using a scooter's drivetrain adapted to
this purpose. The whole idea really gets the purist' blood flowing
though - lol. ;-)
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well there are some more productive ideas for a series hybrid.
The Capstone Microturbine has a Hybrid Electric Vehicle version. That
one is relatively quite efficient at producing electricty through its
integrated generator head from any fuel including biodiesel.
There's several reasons I think gensets are inappropriate choices,
despite their cheapness. One is that I'm fairly sure the gen design
would be a lot more powerful for a given size/weight if not limited to
60Hz. Heck, the same DC motor used for the drive, if the modified for
power generation (people talk about reclocking the brushes, I don't know
much about this though) should be able to produce the same power that
the drive motor consumes.
Second you've got to be really concerned about power factor and THD of
the current when trying to get the full rating out of an AC generator to
drive a DC load. For example a 10KW head can put out 83 amps @ 120VAC.
AFAIK chargers don't handle this power level so you might just try a
HUGE variac and a rectifier. But you'll find the vehicle only draws
high currents when the waveform voltage exceeds battery voltages, and
nothing for the rest of the waveform. This significantly reduces the
available capacity of the gen head.
Danny
Aaron Richardson wrote:
So the technical reason that a geterator trailer cant be done (or should I say
shouldnt be done) is because if pollutes more than an ICE car? And therefor
I should also own an ICE car along with my EV?
While this is a valid point and merits discussion, I dont see how that
technically impedes someone from connecting a generator to an EV for a few
trips out the year.
However, since I am wasting time on this question I will procede with my basic
research on this topic elsewhere.
Aaron
On Friday 08 September 2006 09:52 pm, Nick Austin wrote:
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 04:55:04PM -0400, David Roden wrote:
I hate to sound cranky, but I think I'm going to stop posting responses
to these APU questions. I feel like I'm wasting my time.
Is there a FAQ for this?
There should be a comprehensive FAQ response we can send people to that
includes all these points.
ie, Horrible pollution
Why not use a clean ICE powered car for long range use
EV + Poorly done Genset == Much worse to drive then Prius
Etc, etc...
That way, we can have only discussions on finer points, without waisting
time on the basics.
What do you think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There can be many factors that influence the consumption,
such as how was traffic, how many red lights, how well
is the truck aligned versus the Prizm, how fast did you
take off from the lights, and so on.
I find that I can drive the US Electricar truck at around
40 A when doing constant 45 MPH.
I have no experience with the Prizm.
Aerodynamics come into play at Freeway speeds.
Around-town driving will depend more on the amount of
weight of the vehicle (energy to accelerate it) and the
rolling resistance and the number of times you need to
slow down and accelerate.
I would not be surprised if the weight of the truck is
below 3800 lbs with the NiCds so the weight may be
pretty close to the Prizm with Lead Acid pack.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Truck beats Prizm in range?
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Ok, this is somewhat weird. Yesterday I took the S10 (300v
> NiCd) out to the Double T diner. Normally this is an 8-9ah
> drive in the Prizm (300v Hawker Pb). However when I looked
> at the E-meter, it read 6ah down.
>
> Why? Is the lower weight of the battery pack *THAT* big of
> a range improver? The packs have the same base voltage, and
> I do hope that the truck is less aerodynamic than a Prizm.
Switch the E-Meter to display kWh rather than Ah (or start logging the
data from it, if it is RS232 equipped).
The NiCd and PbA packs may have the same nominal voltage, but they will
have different charged voltages and will sag differently under load.
The vehicle takes a certain amount of power (kW) to move at a given
speed on a given route, and if the voltage is higher, the Ah consumed
will be lower even though the total energy (kWh) may be the same or
greater.
Also, as Bruce P. suggests, you might want to repeat the trip a few
times to make sure the result is real. If there are lights, etc. on the
way you can sometimes see a fair difference in Ah/kWh depending on how
many you have to stop at.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The plan I have for the corvette is to use a 1.3L motor at highway speed
for long range, no transmission needed, it'll only be run when the car
is going 50-70mph.
A 1.3L motor doesn't weigh very much, and less battery weight is
required. It does mean all the bad stuff with an ICE must remain,
radiator, oil, gas, muffler, etc.
In my opinion if longer trips are relatively common, this is the way to
go for a single car. of course, two cars is always nicer, I have a suv
for long trips, also pulls my boat, jetski, and racecar, and can load
lumber in the back. The little Aspire is for around town.
Jack
Danny Miller wrote:
Well there are some more productive ideas for a series hybrid.
The Capstone Microturbine has a Hybrid Electric Vehicle version. That
one is relatively quite efficient at producing electricty through its
integrated generator head from any fuel including biodiesel.
There's several reasons I think gensets are inappropriate choices,
despite their cheapness. One is that I'm fairly sure the gen design
would be a lot more powerful for a given size/weight if not limited to
60Hz. Heck, the same DC motor used for the drive, if the modified for
power generation (people talk about reclocking the brushes, I don't know
much about this though) should be able to produce the same power that
the drive motor consumes.
Second you've got to be really concerned about power factor and THD of
the current when trying to get the full rating out of an AC generator to
drive a DC load. For example a 10KW head can put out 83 amps @ 120VAC.
AFAIK chargers don't handle this power level so you might just try a
HUGE variac and a rectifier. But you'll find the vehicle only draws
high currents when the waveform voltage exceeds battery voltages, and
nothing for the rest of the waveform. This significantly reduces the
available capacity of the gen head.
Danny
Aaron Richardson wrote:
So the technical reason that a geterator trailer cant be done (or
should I say shouldnt be done) is because if pollutes more than an ICE
car? And therefor I should also own an ICE car along with my EV?
While this is a valid point and merits discussion, I dont see how that
technically impedes someone from connecting a generator to an EV for a
few trips out the year.
However, since I am wasting time on this question I will procede with
my basic research on this topic elsewhere.
Aaron
On Friday 08 September 2006 09:52 pm, Nick Austin wrote:
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 04:55:04PM -0400, David Roden wrote:
I hate to sound cranky, but I think I'm going to stop posting responses
to these APU questions. I feel like I'm wasting my time.
Is there a FAQ for this?
There should be a comprehensive FAQ response we can send people to that
includes all these points.
ie, Horrible pollution
Why not use a clean ICE powered car for long range use
EV + Poorly done Genset == Much worse to drive then Prius
Etc, etc...
That way, we can have only discussions on finer points, without waisting
time on the basics.
What do you think?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
UniversalPowerGroup has AGM (sealed) batteries for reasonable
prices. I use the UB121100 which is 12V 110Ah and costs about
$100 each for orders over $1000 and $92 when ordering more
than $2500 total (you can mix and match batteries in one order).
Shipping is free on orders over $1500
NOTE: these prices are dealer pricing, but it's easy to
become a dealer for a larger order.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark McCurdy
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 7:31 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: battery costs/pricing
gah, battery prices are inSANE in arkansas
just called interstate batteries here, they said their 6v 115ah batteries
were $73 each
I think I'd rather order some and have them shipped from me
anyone got suggestions on a good place?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got some Hall-effect current sensors but I'm not sure how to use them. They
are a little less than half of a cube of butter in size, and the line
pass-through is larger than a no. 2 pencil; they read:
LEM MODULE 100 Amp.
TYPE LT 100-P/SP 5
RATIO 1:1000
INT.RES. 30 ohms
+12V, M, and -12V
The bottom line corresponds to 3 pins on the bottom, so they appear to be power
supply and meter output, but the 2 on the other edge have no labels. As a
refence, I did find one similar item on the LEM site, a TYPE LT 100-P/SP 30:
http://www.lem.com/inet/datashee.nsf/6336010B2C9E62DAC1256647003DA224/E54014A50FE4AD9AC12571C30043F291/$File/LT%20100-S%20SP30%20E.pdf
Any help on utilizing these would be appreciated. I have extras if anyone needs
one.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
michael carman wrote:
> i have a jack and heintz 36-96vdc motor from a beetle conversion.
> it's 10 to 30hp and 3k to 8k rpm and 400amps.
Actually, it's rated 30 volts at 400 amps. That's about 12 horsepower.
People *used* it at higher voltages and currents, to get higher
horsepowers out of it.
> i need to take it apart to remove the beetle hub and replace for a ranger
> p/u. how do i get it apart?
I assume you're trying to remove the external shaft? The shaft you see
externally is really a loose piece. The motor's real shaft is entirely
contained inside, and is a hollow tube with spines inside it.
To remove the external shaft, start by removing the rear cover. On mine,
this was a fiberglass housing with a fitting for the cooling air hose.
It was held by several small screws deeply recessed into holes in the
cover.
With the cover off, you will see a small snap ring holding the center
shaft. Remove the snap ring, and the external shaft will slide out the
other end of the motor.
> i've been told to not use it, and get another motor.
They are old, noisy, and not very efficient; but they are also well-made
(aircraft quality) and cheap!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Satisfying performance.
Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 07:24:23 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jeff could you give a recap of your setup? You don't mention speed in gear.
For instance with my Aspire I shift to second at 25mph. I keep it in 1st
gear otherwise. You might be loading down your motor. I cruise at 35 to
45mph in 2nd gear. I have a 144vdc 2700 pound vehicle Aprox.........
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 8:36 PM
Subject: Satisfying performance.
> As Steve Clunn pointed out I am a little less than satisfied with the
> current level of performance, but there may be some reasons.
>
> I believe I got 320 wh/mile with 17 orbitals and she moved like a bat
> out of hell. 650 lbs of batteries over the rear and it still laid 2
> black stripes for 6 feet(by then, I was of throttle). Then I increased
> it to 24 batteries and she still moved good, but I didn't have much time
> with that set up, I exploded the motor in the first mile. So I don't
> know about the mileage.
>
> When I put it back together, I missed something. If I am really careful,
> I can get 450 wh/mile, but most the time is is about 466wh/mile. This
> has reduced my usable range from 24 to 16 and that is just under what I
> need. She also acts differently off the line. Seems to lug and not pull
> down the bat voltage , then as the rpms come up it draws more current
> and sags the voltage more. I can feel this and I think it means the
> motor timing is too far advanced for such a heavy vehicle causing it to
> waste energy fighting itself off the line. I think this is why my comm
> is so dark. I may of also damaged something in the drive line, it just
> feels wrong, but hard to tell witht the different EV sounds.
>
> But there may also be a type of illusion that occurs in an EV. I start
> in second and out accelerate most cars from the light then shift into
> third. The lack of going through 4 gears to get to that same point and
> the lack of the corresponding engine noise makes it feel slower than it
> really is. (Unless all the drivers in Fresno suddenly slowed down?)
>
> At 24 (25 counting aux) orbitals, she weighs 4050 lbs including driver.
> (I am the heaviest I have ever been and like I said before, you know you
> are an EV enthusiast when your new motivation to loose weight is the
> prospect of replacing that weight with batteries)
> The car started at 3000 lb curb weight before conversion so that wasn't
> too bad.
>
> I need to get a way of checking the timing without pulling the motor.
>
> It never got it aligned, only one shop would touch it. and my bank has
> better hours and they wanted me to leave it so they can drive it on to
> the rack. Not all safeties are in place and I didn't want them to learn
> the hard way.
>
> I think if the alignment is bad enough to cost you 1/2 mile per gallon,
> it will cut my range in half, I only have < 1 gallon of gas worth of
> energy on board!
>
--- End Message ---
