--- Begin Message ---
In third gear, with the listed ratios, the overall ratio is 1.49 * 4.875 =
7.264 Divide the RPM of the motor by the overall ratio, then convert wheel
RPM to mph:
Overall ratio 7.264
RPM 3000 (for example)
Wheel diam 29 inches (for example)
Wheel circum 91.1035 inches
Wheel RPM 413
Ground Speed 37626 in/min
Ground Speed 35.9 mph
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: September 7, 2006 9:32 AM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: Re: Gear Ratios
I'm not sure I understand the ratio that hits the road. Otmar leaves his
tranny in 3rd all the time. Does that mean he is going 1.5 to one ratio to
the pavement? I'd sure like to know what really is hitting the road. The
motorcycle rearends I've seen lately are 3 2/3 to one hitting the road.
What will work? HP must affect this. Weight must also. I just don't want
to over heat a motor if I don't have to. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 6:52 AM
Subject: Gear Ratios
Looking to do some comparisons on my 1965 Datsun Truck.
1st gear = 3.94
2nd gear = 2.40
3rd gear = 1.49
4th gear = 1.00
Rear end = 4.875
Can any of the small truck owners fill me in on transmissions gear
ratios and rear end ratio for their particular truck?
Motor type and controller?
Also how you normally drive the truck;
Example; Start off in 2nd gear go to third, etc.
Any opinions on performance using different gear combinations / driving
techniques.
Thanks:
Dennis
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> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6D284.EC4DF7A3"
> Subject: Gear Ratios
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:52:56 -0500
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> X-MS-Has-Attach:
> X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Thread-Topic: Gear Ratios
> Thread-Index: AcbShOzVCiqLXZzmSRuyU4KaFiHHuQ==
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion Group--
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 13:55:51 -0000
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Dave Cover <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> I'm a home brew kind of guy for sure. But the plating shop only wants
> $72 for load of parts to be nickel plated. If I can figure out a
> better plating for EV use I'll use that. But for that money and in 2
> days I get them back, it's worth it. Besides, my little garage is
> packed. I'd be plating stuff in the bathtub!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > The primary reason for plating is protection from NiCad electrolyte,
> KOH. Nickel will do the job,
> > but I thought I read recently that tin isn't sufficient. I'll have
> to try a little exposure test.
> >
> > --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > A lot of talk about plating copper bus bars. Proceedure below
> looks pretty complex. I have
> > > used a product which is very simple and works very well. It is
> Kepro immersion tin plating
> > > solution. Tin plating copper is more common than nickel, I
> believe. This process puts a film
> > > of 0.00002 inch thick. Not too expensive and easy to use. Parts
> I have done 5 or 6 years ago
> > > look brand new. Good luck.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Well there's also brush plating, which is how a lot of small
> stuff like
> > > gold plated car emblems are done. It can produce good results if done
> > > well, though generally it's an inferior process to tank plating.
> > > However, it's much cheaper than filling a tank with solution. Having
> > > gallons of sodium cyanide solution around is kinda scary too.
> > >
> > > Also IIRC gold does not work well directly on top of copper. One
> is the
> > > gold plating is somewhat porous and any corrosion underneath the gold
> > > will be a problem, I also heard migration was another problem. The
> > > solution was usually a barrier layer of nickle plated down first.
> > > Nickle is irritating to many people's skin so jewelry more often
> uses a
> > > more expensive rhodium barrier layer, except for the really cheap
> jewelry.
> > >
> > > Danny
> > >
> > > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hello Mike,
> > > >
> > > >Plating the buss bars, is the way I would go. It is easy to do
> with the
> > > >following setup:
> > > >
> > > >The plating tank can be acrylic fiberglass, polyethylene,
> polyprophlene or
> > > >glass with a flat open surface which you can lay two lengths of 2
> x 2 wood
> > > >space apart on top of the container.
> > > >
> > > >The wood holds three solid copper wires by inserting them into
> drill holes
> > > >in the wood. These rods are all space apart.
> > > >
> > > >The center rod, will be the hold the object you want to plate
> which is call
> > > >the cathode which comes from a negative DC source.
> > > >
> > > >The outside two rods, will hold the metal you are plating from
> which is call
> > > >the anode which comes from a positive DC source.
> > > >
> > > >The object you want to plate and the cathodes are suspended from
> the copper
> > > >rods by using a small bare copper wire that is attach to the
> copper rods
> > > >buss with alligator clips.
> > > >
> > > >You should always suspend the object you want to plate in the
> center of the
> > > >bath and surround it with at least four cathodes. This gives it even
> > > >plating on all sides.
> > > >
> > > >The four anodes can be stainless steel if you use a bath using the
> > > >electrolyte contain the metal you want to plate with.
> > > >
> > > >I find its it easer to just use the anodes as the metal you want
> to plate,
> > > >but sometimes this is a higher cost.
> > > >
> > > >Use distill water with 3 to 6 percent sodium per gallon solution
> using gold
> > > >bars or you can use sodium gold cyanide in a 3.6 percent per gallon
> > > >solution, a sodium cyanide of 3.6 to 7.2 percent per gallon and
> disodium
> > > >phosphate of 3.6 to 10.8 percent per gallon.
> > > >
> > > >Use a battery with a maximum of 12 volts at a sustained current
> of 0 to 12
> > > >amps for small items to 10 to 20 amps for larger items.
> Electroplating is
> > > >normally done from 2 volts for a fine finish to 10 volts for a
> course
> > > >finish. If you are plating with gold, you only need 15 to 20
> seconds. Gold
> > > >is rarely thicker than 0.0001 inch.
> > > >
> > > >If you want a thicker deposit, you must removed the object after
> 20 seconds,
> > > >clean it and plating again.
> > > >
> > > >To clean the object you want to plate, you can reversed the
> current from the
> > > >cathode to the anodes. It is best to do this in a separate
> cleaning tank.
> > > >This only takes seconds.
> > > >
> > > >I started to clean copper bars one time, and I left them in too
> long, 30
> > > >seconds and they look like they were sand blast, not smooth at all.
> > > >
> > > >If you used a electrolytes bath of the base metal you want to
> use, it is
> > > >recommended that these solutions are heated from a range of 70 to
> 150 degree
> > > >F. which the electroplating solutions to work at.
> > > >
> > > >I find it is just best to have the anodes as the plating metal.
> > > >
> > > >while you are at it, you can plate all you battery connectors,
> bolts, nuts
> > > >and etc.
> > > >
> > > >Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Mike Phillips"
> > > >To: "Roland Wiench"
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:25 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Hello Mike,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>high
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I found this out when I install all nickel plated fasteners on my
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>battery
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>links. My copper bars at one time was coated with a very thin
> frosted
> > > >>>silvery coating which is a normal coating for buss bars. I don't
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>have the
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>specs on that type of alloy. This coating is normally used in
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>electrical
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>connections which might be a alloy of copper and cadmium which
> gives
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>it a
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>frosted silvery copper tone.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>I think that is what my buss bars and nuts are coasted with.
> They have
> > > >>very close to what you describe for the plating surface.
> > > >>
> > > >>I wish we knew what the plating was!!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Nickel is too high resistance, but has good corrosion resistance.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>They are
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>good for battery fasteners, but do not use them between the buss
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>bars and
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>the battery terminals.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Copper has too high corrosion factor.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Silver which is a very good conductor but is subject to corrosion.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Gold plating is a little less conductance then silver but it
> has a high
> > > >>>resistance to corrosion.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>So I used gold plating fasters between my battery post and cadmium
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>plated
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>links, which acts like a bi-metal connection which we used in our
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>overhead
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>line electrical work. It works good.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>If we have buss bar links that does not fit the bolt holes just
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>right, we
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>then drill them out a little larger and apply Tinning Butter and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>apply a
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>little lead to that area, or use a re-plating kit that you can
> plate
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>this
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>link with any alloy you want.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>Is tinning butter just pure tin + flux?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>You can get the plating solutions in the kit, or can purchase them
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>in large
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>bulk from the Fisher Laboratory Scientific Supply Companies.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I found that the contact area makes a good conduction path. After
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>we remove
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>them after years of surface, the surface was still highly polish to
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>a mirror
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>finish.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>So plating a polished surface is the best idea? I made my plates
> from
> > > >>polished copper for the old lead acid pack. Plating them would make
> > > >>them a good bet for the Nicads.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>You can can this Tinning Butter, Lead sticks, and even Cadmium
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>plating kits
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>from www.eastwoodcompany.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>I haven't looked those guys up in years. Thanks for the reminder.
> > > >>
> > > >>Mike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Cable sheilding
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:00:21 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Hello Erik,
>
> This will work for mechanical protection, as for noise suppression, the DC
> battery cables from battery to controller do not have much effect.
>
> It may from the controller to the motor which is pulsating DC.
>
> At one time, I ran four 2/0 cables in one 2 inch Sealtite conduit under
the
> car. Came up into the motor bay bend at 90 degree strap to the fire wall
> with a Sealtite box connector and bushing. The other end also had a
> Sealtite box connecter that connected to a conduit hole in the sheet metal
> of the trunk area of the car.
>
> I now run all these cable in a wireway or a ductway which is in the bottom
> of the console that runs inside the car from front to rear. The
> communication cables which are double shield are in the same wireway. I
> still use smaller conduits and spare conduits, for all my wires, so I can
> rewire new circuits as required, by just pulling in new wires.
>
> I have no AM, FM or XM noise at all.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 12:40 AM
> Subject: Cable sheilding
>
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I was discussing how I was going to run the cable from the rear battery
> > box
> > in my EV to the front, and I was thinking of using 2 runs of 3/4"
flexible
> > armored conduit right next to eachother to help make some tight turns
that
> > a
> > single larger conduit would have trouble with. The cables won't be
> > touching
> > eachother, but will be very close, and each conduit is armored. I could
> > connect the armor of each conduit together. Will this work to contain
> > radiated noise?
> >
> > As a side note, are the battery cables all that noisy anyway? I would
> > think
> > think the motor loop would be orders of magnitude worse and drown out
any
> > emissions from the battery cable runs.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Erik
> >
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/823
> >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:23:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> To: [email protected]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> Immersion tin plating solution is $98 for a gollon. dalpro.net. I used a
glass dish as used to bake cakes and stuff. Could use plastic. Solution
has shelf life of one year, but worked for me at three years old. A gallon
did hundreds of bus bars for me, 3 inch to 12 inch long. Takes about 20
minutes to do a batch. Local shop sounds like good option also.
>
> None of my bus bars went on nickel batteries. A few on PbAcid. Most
onto power electronics and resistor banks.
>
> Jeff
>
> Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm a home brew kind of guy for sure. But the plating shop only wants
> $72 for load of parts to be nickel plated. If I can figure out a
> better plating for EV use I'll use that. But for that money and in 2
> days I get them back, it's worth it. Besides, my little garage is
> packed. I'd be plating stuff in the bathtub!
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover wrote:
> >
> > The primary reason for plating is protection from NiCad electrolyte,
> KOH. Nickel will do the job,
> > but I thought I read recently that tin isn't sufficient. I'll have
> to try a little exposure test.
> >
> > --- Jeff Major wrote:
> >
> > > A lot of talk about plating copper bus bars. Proceedure below
> looks pretty complex. I have
> > > used a product which is very simple and works very well. It is
> Kepro immersion tin plating
> > > solution. Tin plating copper is more common than nickel, I
> believe. This process puts a film
> > > of 0.00002 inch thick. Not too expensive and easy to use. Parts
> I have done 5 or 6 years ago
> > > look brand new. Good luck.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > Danny Miller wrote:
> > > Well there's also brush plating, which is how a lot of small
> stuff like
> > > gold plated car emblems are done. It can produce good results if done
> > > well, though generally it's an inferior process to tank plating.
> > > However, it's much cheaper than filling a tank with solution. Having
> > > gallons of sodium cyanide solution around is kinda scary too.
> > >
> > > Also IIRC gold does not work well directly on top of copper. One
> is the
> > > gold plating is somewhat porous and any corrosion underneath the gold
> > > will be a problem, I also heard migration was another problem. The
> > > solution was usually a barrier layer of nickle plated down first.
> > > Nickle is irritating to many people's skin so jewelry more often
> uses a
> > > more expensive rhodium barrier layer, except for the really cheap
> jewelry.
> > >
> > > Danny
> > >
> > > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hello Mike,
> > > >
> > > >Plating the buss bars, is the way I would go. It is easy to do
> with the
> > > >following setup:
> > > >
> > > >The plating tank can be acrylic fiberglass, polyethylene,
> polyprophlene or
> > > >glass with a flat open surface which you can lay two lengths of 2
> x 2 wood
> > > >space apart on top of the container.
> > > >
> > > >The wood holds three solid copper wires by inserting them into
> drill holes
> > > >in the wood. These rods are all space apart.
> > > >
> > > >The center rod, will be the hold the object you want to plate
> which is call
> > > >the cathode which comes from a negative DC source.
> > > >
> > > >The outside two rods, will hold the metal you are plating from
> which is call
> > > >the anode which comes from a positive DC source.
> > > >
> > > >The object you want to plate and the cathodes are suspended from
> the copper
> > > >rods by using a small bare copper wire that is attach to the
> copper rods
> > > >buss with alligator clips.
> > > >
> > > >You should always suspend the object you want to plate in the
> center of the
> > > >bath and surround it with at least four cathodes. This gives it even
> > > >plating on all sides.
> > > >
> > > >The four anodes can be stainless steel if you use a bath using the
> > > >electrolyte contain the metal you want to plate with.
> > > >
> > > >I find its it easer to just use the anodes as the metal you want
> to plate,
> > > >but sometimes this is a higher cost.
> > > >
> > > >Use distill water with 3 to 6 percent sodium per gallon solution
> using gold
> > > >bars or you can use sodium gold cyanide in a 3.6 percent per gallon
> > > >solution, a sodium cyanide of 3.6 to 7.2 percent per gallon and
> disodium
> > > >phosphate of 3.6 to 10.8 percent per gallon.
> > > >
> > > >Use a battery with a maximum of 12 volts at a sustained current
> of 0 to 12
> > > >amps for small items to 10 to 20 amps for larger items.
> Electroplating is
> > > >normally done from 2 volts for a fine finish to 10 volts for a
> course
> > > >finish. If you are plating with gold, you only need 15 to 20
> seconds. Gold
> > > >is rarely thicker than 0.0001 inch.
> > > >
> > > >If you want a thicker deposit, you must removed the object after
> 20 seconds,
> > > >clean it and plating again.
> > > >
> > > >To clean the object you want to plate, you can reversed the
> current from the
> > > >cathode to the anodes. It is best to do this in a separate
> cleaning tank.
> > > >This only takes seconds.
> > > >
> > > >I started to clean copper bars one time, and I left them in too
> long, 30
> > > >seconds and they look like they were sand blast, not smooth at all.
> > > >
> > > >If you used a electrolytes bath of the base metal you want to
> use, it is
> > > >recommended that these solutions are heated from a range of 70 to
> 150 degree
> > > >F. which the electroplating solutions to work at.
> > > >
> > > >I find it is just best to have the anodes as the plating metal.
> > > >
> > > >while you are at it, you can plate all you battery connectors,
> bolts, nuts
> > > >and etc.
> > > >
> > > >Roland
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Mike Phillips"
> > > >To: "Roland Wiench"
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:25 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Hello Mike,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them plate a
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>high
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I found this out when I install all nickel plated fasteners on my
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>battery
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>links. My copper bars at one time was coated with a very thin
> frosted
> > > >>>silvery coating which is a normal coating for buss bars. I don't
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>have the
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>specs on that type of alloy. This coating is normally used in
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>electrical
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>connections which might be a alloy of copper and cadmium which
> gives
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>it a
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>frosted silvery copper tone.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>I think that is what my buss bars and nuts are coasted with.
> They have
> > > >>very close to what you describe for the plating surface.
> > > >>
> > > >>I wish we knew what the plating was!!
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>Nickel is too high resistance, but has good corrosion resistance.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>They are
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>good for battery fasteners, but do not use them between the buss
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>bars and
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>the battery terminals.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Copper has too high corrosion factor.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Silver which is a very good conductor but is subject to corrosion.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>Gold plating is a little less conductance then silver but it
> has a high
> > > >>>resistance to corrosion.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>So I used gold plating fasters between my battery post and cadmium
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>plated
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>links, which acts like a bi-metal connection which we used in our
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>overhead
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>line electrical work. It works good.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>If we have buss bar links that does not fit the bolt holes just
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>right, we
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>then drill them out a little larger and apply Tinning Butter and
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>apply a
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>little lead to that area, or use a re-plating kit that you can
> plate
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>this
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>link with any alloy you want.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>Is tinning butter just pure tin + flux?
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>You can get the plating solutions in the kit, or can purchase them
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>in large
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>bulk from the Fisher Laboratory Scientific Supply Companies.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>I found that the contact area makes a good conduction path. After
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>we remove
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>them after years of surface, the surface was still highly polish to
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>a mirror
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>finish.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>So plating a polished surface is the best idea? I made my plates
> from
> > > >>polished copper for the old lead acid pack. Plating them would make
> > > >>them a good bet for the Nicads.
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>You can can this Tinning Butter, Lead sticks, and even Cadmium
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>plating kits
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>>from www.eastwoodcompany.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>I haven't looked those guys up in years. Thanks for the reminder.
> > > >>
> > > >>Mike
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------
> > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> From: "Tim Ireland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> Subject: EVs on TV in Australia. The Dateline footage, and WKTEC movie.
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 22:58:17 +0930
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="us-ascii"
> Content-Disposition: inline
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> For all those listers here in Australia, the feature filmed by
> 'Dateline' that John Wayland has mentioned and should include some White
> Zombie action is due to air on next Wednesdays edition.
>
> It is running under the title of "Who killed the Electric Car"
> advertised on the SBS Dateline website as "coming soon" without a date,
> so I rang today and was told it is scheduled for Wednesday 13 September
> 2006, 8:30pm... then repeats on the following Thursday and Monday at
> 1:00pm.
>
> I am organising a friend to record it as I will be on a plane between
> Sydney and Adelaide.
>
> The movie "Who killed the Electric Car" was originally scheduled for
> release by the main cinema chain here in Aus (Greater Union) in mid
> August but, as reported previously on this list, they changed their mind
> and did not pick it up.
>
> However, the great news is it's now scheduled for release on 2 November
> through the Village Cinema chain... Well, it's great news if you live in
> Victoria, Tasmania or New South Wales!
>
> Unfortunately for me, I am in South Australia... and Village Cinemas are
> not, so I am waiting for a call back from Sony Pictures Australia to
> find out who is bringing it to the rest of Australia.
>
> Tim Ireland
> Adelaide, South Oz
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:28:09 -0700
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Trike
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> richard weaver wrote:
> > I plan on building a trike similar to the R.Q. Riley Urba Trike...
> > I need advice on motor etc. that will get desired performance.
> > My commute is about 50 miles with some hills and about 20 miles
> > of highway.
>
> 50 miles at highway speeds is hard to do with an inexpensive EV. It
> usually takes expensive batteries or an exceptionally efficient vehicle.
>
> But if it's 50 miles round trip (25 miles there, 25 miles back), and you
> can charge at work, then it's fairly easy.
>
> For cheap, simple, and good performing, Jerry Dycus's "Woody" EV is
> pretty hard to beat. He used an old VW Beetle front end, a single rear
> wheel, chain driven from a golf cart motor, plywood 2-seater body, 72v
> worth of 6v golf cart batteries, series/parallel contactor controller,
> and a golf cart charger.
>
> Officially, it's a motorcycle. He drove it for almost 10 years! He can
> tell you more, but as I recall it had a top speed around 50 mph, and a
> range of about 50 miles.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Wanted: Used Adaptor for 1987 Chevy S10 w/ 2.5 L 4 cyl engine
> Date: Thu, 07 Sep 2006 09:37:44 -0500
> Mime-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>
> Last time I'll bother y'all w/ this one. I pulled the motor and
> transmission over the labor day weekend (they were a greasy, filthy,
MESS!),
> so I'm just about ready for the adaptor and motor mount. Would like to
save
> a few bucks and find a used one......don't suppose anyone has one lying
> around???......
>
> Looks like the Zilla controller I ordered will be the long pole in the
tent
> as far as completion of the EV....anyone got any news in that department??
>
> Mike
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: Gear Ratios
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:43:10 -0600
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> Hello Dennis,
>
> The 1st gear overall ratio of 19.20 is good for a EV weight up to 8000 lbs
> using 300 Ah batteries.
>
> My 1st gear overall ratio is 3.5 1st gear x 5.57 differential is 19.495:1.
>
> My EV weighs 6860 lbs and loaded can weigh 7100 lbs. I always take off in
> 1st gear and accelerated up to 15 mph which is about 3000 rpm before I
shift
> to 2nd. I can keep my battery ampere below 50 amps in 1st gear.
>
> In 2nd gear the overall ration is 2.5:1 1st gear x 5.57 differential is
> 13.9:1.
>
> I then can accelerated up to 25 mph which is about 3000 before I shift to
> 3rd which is 1:1 ratio.
>
> In 1st or 2nd gear, I can keep the battery amps to 50 amps and motor amps
to
> 200 amps. If I cruse in any of these gears, my battery amps will drop as
> low as 30 amps and the motor amps at 100 amps.
>
> If I want to get wild, I can accelerated up hill with a 10% grade and get
of
> burst of 500 motor amps and then its steadies out at 300 motor amps with a
> battery amp of 75 to 125 amps.
>
> Here is a simple ratio formula:
>
> 2400 wthr = 100lbs = 50mph =60min = 1:1 ratio
>
> If you have a 5000 lb EV then 5000/100 = 50
>
> 2400 wthr x 50 = 120,000 wthr
>
> If you have a 4:1 overall ratio then 120,000/4 =
> 30,000 wthr
>
> If you use 200 volts of batteries, than 30,000/200 = 150 AH battery.
>
> In all these cases, the range is 50 miles at 50 mph in 60 minutes. As you
> decrease the speed the range will increase proportional.
>
> You can find what overall gear ratio is needed for different EV weights.
>
> This is in the ballpark area, depending on the efficiency of the body and
> mechanical.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:52 AM
> Subject: Gear Ratios
>
>
> Looking to do some comparisons on my 1965 Datsun Truck.
>
> 1st gear = 3.94
> 2nd gear = 2.40
> 3rd gear = 1.49
> 4th gear = 1.00
> Rear end = 4.875
>
> Can any of the small truck owners fill me in on transmissions gear
> ratios and rear end ratio for their particular truck?
> Motor type and controller?
>
> Also how you normally drive the truck;
> Example; Start off in 2nd gear go to third, etc.
> Any opinions on performance using different gear combinations / driving
> techniques.
>
> Thanks:
> Dennis
>
>
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
> > * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> > * (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
> > * Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
> > * If your postings display this message your mail program *
> > * is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >
> > ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6D284.EC4DF7A3"
> > Subject: Gear Ratios
> > Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:52:56 -0500
> > Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > X-MS-Has-Attach:
> > X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Thread-Topic: Gear Ratios
> > Thread-Index: AcbShOzVCiqLXZzmSRuyU4KaFiHHuQ==
> > From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EV Discussion Group--
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 07:56:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: EVs on TV in Australia. The Dateline footage, and WKTEC
movie.
> To: [email protected]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> --- Tim Ireland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > For all those listers here in Australia, the feature filmed by
> > 'Dateline' that John Wayland has mentioned and should include some White
> > Zombie action is due to air on next Wednesdays edition.
> >
>
> Let us know if they post the episode anywhere the rest of the world can
see it.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 09:51:50 -0500 (CDT)
> Subject: driving an A/C compressor
> From: "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> Folks,
>
> I'd like to drive an air conditioning compressor with an electric motor
> (separate from the traction motor). As much as I'd prefer to drive the
> compressor directly, I am guessing I'll end up driving it with a belt
> because A) I got a good deal on a 2HP motor but it will need some
> reduction to be useful, and B) I've been told that the pulley on the
> compressor is engaged to the bearing on that end, and so operating without
> the pulley might cause shaft seal leakage. Two questions:
>
> First, has anyone modified a stock automotive compressor for direct drive
> from an electric motor? What was necessary? Is the bit about the pulley
> and bearing true?
>
> Second, if I'm to drive this thing with a belt on the existing compressor
> pulley, I'll need a 2.5" - 3" diameter 6-groove K-section pulley for an
> automotive ribbed flat belt. Preferably one that takes an SK style
> bushing. I've searched and searched (and searched!) and I've had no luck
> in finding anyone online selling K-section pulleys in a decent selection
> of sizes. McMaster's only ribbed flat belt pulleys are J-section (too
> small) and the K-section pulleys sold on Lister generator sites are far
> too large in diameter, and too heavy. Where would I find a pulley of the
> size and type that I need?
>
> If I could afford it, I'd be tempted to go buy myself a lathe... :o)
>
> --chris
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:11:11 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jim Waite <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: 06 NEDRA PIR Late Nite Nationals (Part 1)
> To: EVDL <[email protected]>
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
> Content-Disposition: inline
>
> Dedicated with sincere admiration to all NEDRA participants & supporters.
>
> Go to: http://www.photoshow.net/battcar/pir_august_2006 and click on
NEDRA_PIR_2006 Between the Tracks.
> Select your access speed and enjoy!
>
> [Sorry this took so long to publish and that I couldnt include everyone
in attendance (I think I got most of the names correct).]
>
> Part II NEDRA_PIR_2006 Trackside hopefully tomorrow
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2006 08:15:18 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> To: [email protected]
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
> It would be nice to know if the tin plating would be ok in the long run
> pressed against nickel plating. Although I'm not convinced that these
> parts are nickel plated. Any idea how tin is in the presence of KOH?
>
> Mike
>
> --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Immersion tin plating solution is $98 for a gollon. dalpro.net. I
> > used a glass dish as used to bake cakes and stuff. Could use
> > plastic. Solution has shelf life of one year, but worked for me at
> > three years old. A gallon did hundreds of bus bars for me, 3 inch to
> > 12 inch long. Takes about 20 minutes to do a batch. Local shop
> > sounds like good option also.
> >
> > None of my bus bars went on nickel batteries. A few on PbAcid.
> > Most onto power electronics and resistor banks.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm a home brew kind of guy for sure. But the plating shop only
> > wants
> > $72 for load of parts to be nickel plated. If I can figure out a
> > better plating for EV use I'll use that. But for that money and in 2
> > days I get them back, it's worth it. Besides, my little garage is
> > packed. I'd be plating stuff in the bathtub!
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dave Cover wrote:
> > >
> > > The primary reason for plating is protection from NiCad
> > electrolyte,
> > KOH. Nickel will do the job,
> > > but I thought I read recently that tin isn't sufficient. I'll have
> > to try a little exposure test.
> > >
> > > --- Jeff Major wrote:
> > >
> > > > A lot of talk about plating copper bus bars. Proceedure below
> > looks pretty complex. I have
> > > > used a product which is very simple and works very well. It is
> > Kepro immersion tin plating
> > > > solution. Tin plating copper is more common than nickel, I
> > believe. This process puts a film
> > > > of 0.00002 inch thick. Not too expensive and easy to use. Parts
> > I have done 5 or 6 years ago
> > > > look brand new. Good luck.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff
> > > >
> > > > Danny Miller wrote:
> > > > Well there's also brush plating, which is how a lot of small
> > stuff like
> > > > gold plated car emblems are done. It can produce good results if
> > done
> > > > well, though generally it's an inferior process to tank plating.
> > > > However, it's much cheaper than filling a tank with solution.
> > Having
> > > > gallons of sodium cyanide solution around is kinda scary too.
> > > >
> > > > Also IIRC gold does not work well directly on top of copper. One
> > is the
> > > > gold plating is somewhat porous and any corrosion underneath the
> > gold
> > > > will be a problem, I also heard migration was another problem.
> > The
> > > > solution was usually a barrier layer of nickle plated down first.
> >
> > > > Nickle is irritating to many people's skin so jewelry more often
> > uses a
> > > > more expensive rhodium barrier layer, except for the really cheap
> > jewelry.
> > > >
> > > > Danny
> > > >
> > > > Roland Wiench wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Hello Mike,
> > > > >
> > > > >Plating the buss bars, is the way I would go. It is easy to do
> > with the
> > > > >following setup:
> > > > >
> > > > >The plating tank can be acrylic fiberglass, polyethylene,
> > polyprophlene or
> > > > >glass with a flat open surface which you can lay two lengths of
> > 2
> > x 2 wood
> > > > >space apart on top of the container.
> > > > >
> > > > >The wood holds three solid copper wires by inserting them into
> > drill holes
> > > > >in the wood. These rods are all space apart.
> > > > >
> > > > >The center rod, will be the hold the object you want to plate
> > which is call
> > > > >the cathode which comes from a negative DC source.
> > > > >
> > > > >The outside two rods, will hold the metal you are plating from
> > which is call
> > > > >the anode which comes from a positive DC source.
> > > > >
> > > > >The object you want to plate and the cathodes are suspended from
> > the copper
> > > > >rods by using a small bare copper wire that is attach to the
> > copper rods
> > > > >buss with alligator clips.
> > > > >
> > > > >You should always suspend the object you want to plate in the
> > center of the
> > > > >bath and surround it with at least four cathodes. This gives it
> > even
> > > > >plating on all sides.
> > > > >
> > > > >The four anodes can be stainless steel if you use a bath using
> > the
> > > > >electrolyte contain the metal you want to plate with.
> > > > >
> > > > >I find its it easer to just use the anodes as the metal you want
> > to plate,
> > > > >but sometimes this is a higher cost.
> > > > >
> > > > >Use distill water with 3 to 6 percent sodium per gallon solution
> > using gold
> > > > >bars or you can use sodium gold cyanide in a 3.6 percent per
> > gallon
> > > > >solution, a sodium cyanide of 3.6 to 7.2 percent per gallon and
> > disodium
> > > > >phosphate of 3.6 to 10.8 percent per gallon.
> > > > >
> > > > >Use a battery with a maximum of 12 volts at a sustained current
> > of 0 to 12
> > > > >amps for small items to 10 to 20 amps for larger items.
> > Electroplating is
> > > > >normally done from 2 volts for a fine finish to 10 volts for a
> > course
> > > > >finish. If you are plating with gold, you only need 15 to 20
> > seconds. Gold
> > > > >is rarely thicker than 0.0001 inch.
> > > > >
> > > > >If you want a thicker deposit, you must removed the object after
> > 20 seconds,
> > > > >clean it and plating again.
> > > > >
> > > > >To clean the object you want to plate, you can reversed the
> > current from the
> > > > >cathode to the anodes. It is best to do this in a separate
> > cleaning tank.
> > > > >This only takes seconds.
> > > > >
> > > > >I started to clean copper bars one time, and I left them in too
> > long, 30
> > > > >seconds and they look like they were sand blast, not smooth at
> > all.
> > > > >
> > > > >If you used a electrolytes bath of the base metal you want to
> > use, it is
> > > > >recommended that these solutions are heated from a range of 70
> > to
> > 150 degree
> > > > >F. which the electroplating solutions to work at.
> > > > >
> > > > >I find it is just best to have the anodes as the plating metal.
> > > > >
> > > > >while you are at it, you can plate all you battery connectors,
> > bolts, nuts
> > > > >and etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >Roland
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > > >From: "Mike Phillips"
> > > > >To: "Roland Wiench"
> > > > >Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 2:25 PM
> > > > >Subject: Re: USE S10 Nicad layout
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roland Wiench" wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Hello Mike,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Make sure when you get your buss bars plated, you have them
> > plate a
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>high
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>conductive alloy. Nickel plating will increase the resistance.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>I found this out when I install all nickel plated fasteners on
> > my
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>battery
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>links. My copper bars at one time was coated with a very thin
> > frosted
> > > > >>>silvery coating which is a normal coating for buss bars. I
> > don't
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>have the
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>specs on that type of alloy. This coating is normally used in
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>electrical
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>connections which might be a alloy of copper and cadmium which
> > gives
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>it a
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>frosted silvery copper tone.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>I think that is what my buss bars and nuts are coasted with.
> > They have
> > > > >>very close to what you describe for the plating surface.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I wish we knew what the plating was!!
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Nickel is too high resistance, but has good corrosion
> > resistance.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>They are
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>good for battery fasteners, but do not use them between the
> > buss
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>bars and
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>the battery terminals.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Copper has too high corrosion factor.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Silver which is a very good conductor but is subject to
> > corrosion.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Gold plating is a little less conductance then silver but it
> > has a high
> > > > >>>resistance to corrosion.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>So I used gold plating fasters between my battery post and
> > cadmium
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>plated
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>links, which acts like a bi-metal connection which we used in
> > our
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>overhead
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>line electrical work. It works good.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>If we have buss bar links that does not fit the bolt holes
> > just
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>right, we
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>then drill them out a little larger and apply Tinning Butter
> > and
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>apply a
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>little lead to that area, or use a re-plating kit that you can
> > plate
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>this
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>link with any alloy you want.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>Is tinning butter just pure tin + flux?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>You can get the plating solutions in the kit, or can purchase
> > them
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>in large
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>bulk from the Fisher Laboratory Scientific Supply Companies.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>I found that the contact area makes a good conduction path.
> > After
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>we remove
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>them after years of surface, the surface was still highly
> > polish to
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>a mirror
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>finish.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>So plating a polished surface is the best idea? I made my
> > plates
> > from
> > > > >>polished copper for the old lead acid pack. Plating them would
> > make
> > > > >>them a good bet for the Nicads.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>You can can this Tinning Butter, Lead sticks, and even Cadmium
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>plating kits
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>from www.eastwoodcompany.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>I haven't looked those guys up in years. Thanks for the
> > reminder.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Mike
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ---------------------------------
> > > > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
