EV Digest 5857
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: PFC20 acting strange
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC20 acting strange
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re:Current Eliminator News/PBS
by DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EEStor
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: John Wayland - Zebra motors brush advance?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: John Wayland - Zebra motors brush advance?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EEStor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Batteries "losing" a cell? How to recover?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EEStor
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Removing HTML
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Veggie oil hybrid setup
by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: EEStor
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EEStor
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EEStor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EEStor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: i'm Very skeptical
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EEStor
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EEStor
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EEStor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) re:gear in or out - reply to Roland Wiench and Ron Archer
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Karmann Ghia conversion
by "Rachel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Karmann Ghia conversion
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Karmann Ghia conversion
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Dodge D50 conversion
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: John Wayland - Zebra motors brush advance?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have the timer option on to run out once you hit the regulation voltage?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:06 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: PFC20 acting strange
>
>
> Has anyone heard of this happening before
>
> I get home end turn on the charger and it is putting 4 amps into the pack
> (I know it is a pfc20, but it is plugged into 120V and I have a 288V
> pack and only a 15A breaker)
> Anyhow, I go back out 6 hours later and there has been no progress. I
> wake up the emeter and it reads 0.0 amps
> I just touch the current control knob and I'm putting 4 amps into the
> pack again. This has happened twice, and is new in this last week
> coincidentally after adding the dc-dc.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man this sounds like a really old charger...
It does sound strange...
120 boosted to 288 plus.. the charger should be in one of it's sweet spots.
This is definatley not what you should see.
You should be able to do a smooth sweep up from 0 amps, counting the tenths
as you go with a steady hand.
Keep me informed...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 8:05 PM
Subject: PFC20 acting strange
> Has anyone heard of this happening before
>
> I get home end turn on the charger and it is putting 4 amps into the pack
> (I know it is a pfc20, but it is plugged into 120V and I have a 288V
> pack and only a 15A breaker)
> Anyhow, I go back out 6 hours later and there has been no progress. I
> wake up the emeter and it reads 0.0 amps
> I just touch the current control knob and I'm putting 4 amps into the
> pack again. This has happened twice, and is new in this last week
> coincidentally after adding the dc-dc.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a lot of fun to see the Current Eliminator-V hold it's own last
Friday at Speedworld in Surprise Arizona, especially for the PBS cameras!
We had "abnormal" conditions that night where the humidity was above 7%,
it is our monsoon season when we can have storms come in at dusk and a
rapid change in humidity (like from 10% to 100% in just a few minutes).
Although it wasn't raining, Dennis did a great job dialing in the CE to
the track for around 60% humidity. Dennis used his new reverse and it
works very smoothly, even I expected some jerk or lunging but it never
happened.
Whenever the CE does a burnout the crowd is amazed that an electric motor
can put that much power to the track.
We have a new member in our EAA that was at the event (Randy S.) and he
was properly initiated into the world of EV racing by watching the CE
perform!
The PBS crew (Steve and Tina) dug in and worked hard taking movies of the
CE at both the start and finish lines. They interviewed me and a couple of
Dennis' ICE competitors at the track. The ICE guys and gals have a lot of
respect for Dennis and what he has accomplished this season. The second
place car owned by M. Zimmerman is one heck of a nice car and the amazing
part was his rig, a tractor-trailer that hauled 3 cars to the event! I
learned Steve has won an Emmy and I am sure will do a great job with the
film. He hopes to inform the viewers of the potential of electric cars
for everyday driving and what to expect in the future with EVs in racing.
The good news is - we will get the info about EVs to the public, even if
it is just one TV special at a time! Great Job Dennis!!!!
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a link for info on the EEStor ultracapacitor bank planned.
It has 2320 capacitors totalling 31F at 3500V, 336 lbs, 1.2 cubic feet,
charges in 6 minutes and stores 52.2 KW-hrs. $3100 initially projected
price.
http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm
http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/us7033406.pdf patent details
Any recent news or comments on EEStor?
Jay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The thing is, I figure that reverse should only be slow speed, low voltage,
short term, where brush timing shouldn't be too critical. On the other hand,
high speed forward operation at (possibly) above the rated voltage of 72 VDC
might require brush advance to avoid arcing (or so I hear.) So if the Zebra
ADC's are set with neutral brush advance, like the Sparrow's were, it seems to
me that advancing a few degrees might be a good idea. Unfortunately, I don't
know how to eyeball it, so my next question was going to be how to A) see it
and; B) advance it. But that question will wait until I pull one or both of
the motors, and can actually see what I'm asking about.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry. Had the plain text switch off.
Wouldn't these be set t zero as the Tropica as electric reverse? I've
got one that's easy to look at if someone will tell me what to look for.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: John Wayland - Zebra motors brush advance?
The First major warning is the brushes are totally flat, no radiusing at
all. You need to Arc in the brushes and then seat them.
As I recall there is NO timing at all they are nuetral.
So they could use 5 to 10 Deg of advance.
Madman
I have atleast 1 around here.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Condie"
To: "EV List"
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:28 PM
Subject: John Wayland - Zebra motors brush advance?
> Rumor has it that a certain John Wayland bought the surplus inventory
of
6.7" 72 volt ADC motors from the Zebra/Tropica bankruptcy sale. I'm
trying
to find out what I can about these motors (having two of them now)
which are
said to be a "special order" ADC model XP-1150. So if John (or anyone
else)
knows - are the brushes advanced or set at neutral on these babies? Is
there anything else about them that I'll need to know if I run them at
higher voltages? (Of **course** I want to over-volt them!) I'd
rather not
have to take them out of the chassis if I don't have to, but if the
brushes
aren't advanced I'm going to consider it while the rest of the project
is
moving forward.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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3500V? Wow I'm not sure why they didn't go with a smaller voltage.
I have to note that due to the incredible current capabilities and
voltage, it's something that conceivably someone WILL do a demo where
they charge it up with a lightning bolt.
Well, we're waiting. Other obvious benefits is they're virtually
immortal, easy to create foolproof protection against overcharging, no
parallel-balancing issues, incredible charge/discharge rates, and not
harmed by deep discharges. Not sure how to handle "charge balancing"
issues since any overcharge will increases the cap voltage over Vmax and
probably blow the cap.
Boy we'd need a major high voltage controller here. I'm starting to
think the earlier proposal of a modular batteries, each with a lower
voltage controller, isn't such a bad idea.
I wonder what a cap storing 22.5 watt-hours does if it breaks down? In
parallel with several other charged caps?
But fantasizing about benefits is beside the point if such a thing is
not available and may well be ficticious. Be nice if it were available!
Danny
Jay Caplan wrote:
Here is a link for info on the EEStor ultracapacitor bank planned.
It has 2320 capacitors totalling 31F at 3500V, 336 lbs, 1.2 cubic feet,
charges in 6 minutes and stores 52.2 KW-hrs. $3100 initially projected
price.
http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm
http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/us7033406.pdf patent details
Any recent news or comments on EEStor?
Jay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anybody explain this and offer an opinion as to
whether this can be recovered or better replaced:
On the US Electricar site, one of the members (Chris)
reported 4 months ago that he had several batteries
that dropped to 10V under load (100A) but read fine
when not loaded and freshly charged.
There was not really an impact on range, the pack
voltage just read a few volts lower in most cases.
Yesterday I checked my AGM batteries and I found 3
batteries that were different than the other 23 in
that when I hooked up a 13.6V lab supply the current
would start at zero, then s-l-o-w-l-y and increasingly
faster rose to the current limit (3A) after which the
voltage dropped to 13.2 and the battery continued to
charge normally from this point onward.
The weird thing is that these bad batteries had no
effect on range or driving or pack charging, I always
saw the current shoot to 10A immediately and I made
several trips of more than 55 miles over the past weeks
and that never was a problem.
When I checked the pack yesterday I had driven 18 miles
and when putting the pack on charge followed by equalisation
I put around 25 Ah back into the pack (1 hour 10A followed
by 15 hours of 2A falling to below 1A)
The three bad batteries came up to 14.6V while the rest
sat around 14.9V during equalisation, so I added the lab
supply to boost the bad boys for several hours, putting
around 1A in at 14.8V.
They now sit at the same voltage when left alone for a while,
around 13.3V
When load-tested at 75A the "bad" batteries go to 11.4V in
about 10 sec while the other batteries are still at 11.7V.
Apparently they did not really lose a cell, but what was
that strange effect with not taking a charge initially
at 13.6V?
I think Lee explained that this happens when a battery is
completely discharged, so the electrolyte is pure water.
You need to wait a bit to see the current climb while the
battery is increasing the SG of the electrolyte, essentially
turning it back into an acid by releasing the material
from the electrodes.
Did this battery lose capacity or charge and got damaged
from a cell reversal - can that explain this odd behavior?
Inquiring minds would like to know, to avoid damaging more
batteries and know how/if to recover and what to do to
avoid it, so the pack lives a long and happy life.
(I know, I should add clampers or BMS, but that may be
the solution, I now first want to know the cause.)
BTW - I have 1 string of 26x 12V 110Ah batteries, so if
there was a problem with conductivity in one battery,
I could not drive. I have however never noticed a problem,
I am logging my DC voltage/current and speed for most
trips to work (but not the real long trips, unfortunately)
and my controller cuts current back when the battery voltage
falls to 273V (10.5V per battery) under load.
There are no visual signs of any problem on the batteries
and the 3 bad ones are spread through the pack.
The other 23 seems to be pretty well balanced, so I do not
understand this behavior.
Anybody care to give an educated guess or resolution?
For now I'll continue to charge the bad batteries for a
while longer and see how they hold up after that.
BTW, below a response from Chris on my email with this
information on the US Electricar Yahoo group.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Chris wrote:
Very very interesting. Can you go out to Pep Boys, spend $40 and get a
good quality battery tester? What you describe is spooky; I have the
exact same results in my pack.
Here's what's happening. Last time I dropped the pack I found six
batteries that were like this. They would sit lower than the others with
no load, would happily charge to 14-15ah then would fall like stones to
10 volts under 100a load but they would hold it for a good while. When
you charge them, they take the charge but it's as if one cell is a phantom.
I've tried float charging them, charging to insane voltages, whatever.
One cell is simply gone.
As the ultimate torture test, I hooked one to a zener reg and put it on
a small dumb motorcycle charger attached to my mosquito magnet (500ma
load) and left it there for the summer. Checked it today after about 4
months of charge with the light bulb dimly on, and it sinks to 11.4
under 100a load.
Really odd. Why is the cell back? Will it last?
But anyway, this does not seem to sink the car's range much, what it
does is make the car act like a battery is missing or something. Check
your numbers under cruise; I'll bet you see voltages 6 volts lower than
what makes sense.
I think I have another three oddballs in my pack from over the summer.
Current plan is to drop the pack in October and check. Based on my
readings (car comes to 318 volts after full charge and sitting for
awhile then run with a 1a load as opposed to 324) I'm guessing three
weird cells. But it will still run happily till more of them die.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Sep 10, 2006 at 11:35:42PM -0500, Jay Caplan wrote:
>
> Any recent news or comments on EEStor?
I notice that the blog you link to has the following line at the end:
"None of these claims except construction and cost are significantly better
than other ultracapacitors. Although they sometimes refer to the technology as
a battery, it is clearly an ultracapacitor."
Is that true? I though that capacity was much higher?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Sep 2006 at 10:01, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Yes, except it's not quite done exactly. The list server removes the
> HTML, but apparently leaves part of the headers indciating that the
> message contains HTML.
I think that may be deliberate. My guess is that the intent is >NOT< to
transparently strip html, but rather to remove it AND to remind users not to
send it in the first place. That's just a guess, though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Anyone used a double ended ADC motor inline of the propshaft of a car. Whats
the best way to tie in an electric motor to the current drive train of my
diesel hilux?
Chain drive?
Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow.
As soon as they are able to scale up their production,
we would not look back at batteries again.
The breakdown voltage can be changed easily if they
are able to reliable create thinner layers.
If they can reduce the layers from 100 Ang to 10 Angstrom
without getting secondary effects like tunneling or so,
then the voltage will also be 10 times lower (350V).
But that is a minor point.
Being able to store 52kWh in 150 kg is WAAAAY more than
any battery technology today can deliver, let alone the
recharge time and cycle life.
I am aware that not all of the 52 kWh can be used, as you
realistically cannot discharge down to 0V, but even if you
have a DC/DC converter that can use the range from 3500
down to 1000V, you would be able to use almost all the
power from the 150 kg package.
My current pack weighs 850 kg (almost 6 times heavier)
and struggles to deliver 24 kWh (almost half the energy)
although its 20h capacity is 34 kWh.
So this pack would be at least 12 times more capacity
per weight than very efficient Lead-Acid.
Having so many parallel modules is actually good for
reliability: place a 1A fuse in front of each module
so that when one module goes, your range will be
reduced by 0.04% or so.
Only issue is to find 3500V fuses at the moment...
When this techology becomes available on large scale,
there is no issue building fast rechargeable cars with
500 miles range, though there would be no need to
make the cars so expensive with that high a range, as
you can recharge them in minutes if the infrastructure
is put into place...... Using these same caps as dump
packs or high power feeds from a nearby substation.
With a charge station at least every 100 miles and
200 miles range you would probably fly everywhere and
only need one 31F 3500V pack.
Power station capacity calculation:
For a recharge of a 30F capacitor from 1000 to 3500V
in 300 sec (5 min) you need to solve the formula:
I x t = dV x C
(current times time equals voltage change times capacity)
I(A) x 300(s) = 2500(V) x 30(F)
This means you need 250A average but because the voltage
changes from 1000 to 3500V the power would change from
250kW to 875kW during constant current charge.
It is more convenient to charge at constant power for the
substation, so it needs to deliver a tad over 1/2 MW.
At a typical 10kV line, this is only 50A, less in 3-phase.
Does anyone know of reliable 500A 3500V connectors to
plug it in?
Hmmm....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
>I notice that the blog you link to has the following line at the end:
>
>"None of these claims except construction and cost are significantly better
>than other ultracapacitors. Although they sometimes refer to the technology
as
>a battery, it is clearly an ultracapacitor."
>
>Is that true? I though that capacity was much higher?
The patent says it all:
they have made an invention to increase the allowable field
strength from 3 MV/cm to 5 MV/cm.
Since energy goes with the voltage squared, they are able to
store 5/3^2 = 25/9 or almost 3 times as much energy in the
same package.
It is not your common ultracapacitor.
Apparently they also made some improvements in the materials,
but we'll see if they can offer them for $3000/pack.
I will certainly be interested in a few years or whenever
my batteries die.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure they've got to have some reason to go to 3500V?!
Now be aware that even if your controller handled 3500v, the motor
insulation probably won't. Not for long. PWM does not help because it
doesn't actually lower the voltage at all. In fact wiring insulation is
stressed not only by voltage but by how fast voltage changes, thus PWM
actually hurts the insulation rating quite a bit. So far people don't
seem to be having a lot of probs though.
If a motor needs 100v to get the speed you need, then even 350v would
allow you to use 92% of the capacity before it won't turn your motor
without a voltage booster.
That's where I was pointing out that the modular system proposed (who
was it who proposed this?) might be a good idea. Say we arrange this
into 7x 50v packs each with a power module containing an output and a
bypass transistor rated for only 50v. You can get 50v high current
MOSFETs with very low rds-on cheaply enough. If the motor needs an
average voltage of 75v to cruise at X rpms, one pack is "on" all the
time, another at 50% duty, the others are in bypass mode. But it's
actually going to be rotating which pack is on and which is being pwm'ed
to share the pack drain and transistor loading.
Of course there's also problems. More devices will likely increase the
cost and likely increase the transistor power losses. Actually you
could use relays too.
Back to contactor arrangements. We want 8x 200v cap banks. Put them
all in parallel when fully charged. When the voltage gets too low, put
them in series stacks. First put in series two sets of 4 paralled
banks, then 4x2, then 8x1. Thus if our motor needed at least 100v, we
could use the caps all the way down to each bank being 12.5v with all
the banks in series, and thus we get to use over 99% of the cap's energy.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Does anyone know of reliable 500A 3500V connectors to
plug it in?
Hmmm....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah now let's think if this "suggested retail price" is even sane.
2320 caps/$3100. They're suggesting a starting price of $1.34/cell.
But that doesn't even include packaging costs to make busbars, high
current connections, a case, and assemble it all. That might mean this
ultra-super-megacap's component cost would have to be $0.25 or so to
meet that pack price! That would have to be incredibly cheap materials,
remarkably simple mfg process, and no big royalties for EEStor. I can
barely buy small electrolytics on surplus for this price.
The day such a miraculous product is available, every laptop mfg already
will kill to replace their lithium batteries. As will the military and
probably every power plant to buffer the peak loads, as well as
countless other apps I couldn't begin to think of. A thousand
flashlight mfgs, there you go. It would take a huge array of mfg plants
to meet all these needs unless the caps are remarkably easy to assemble.
In short it appears a seller's market with only one seller and an ocean
of buyers. This promised price doesn't seem likely, at least not until
the mfg industry is thoroughly geared up in 5-10 yrs after the initial
product launch.
A nice thought here- provided they're in a proper design these caps
could be immortal. You could rip up obsolete laptop cap-packs and find
new uses for the cells. You could salvage packs out of junked electric
vehicles and they might be good-as-new. Unless of course technology
does what it does and makes a new product with 5x-10x the power density
once again, at half the price, making these old packs look silly.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
It is not your common ultracapacitor.
Apparently they also made some improvements in the materials,
but we'll see if they can offer them for $3000/pack.
I will certainly be interested in a few years or whenever
my batteries die.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/9/06, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
This is obviously a representative here in the US of one of the many Chinese
companies now building electric vehicles. All you have to do is call them to
find out. In my opinion China is far ahead of the US in bringing viable and
affordable EVs to market. I will call on Monday myself to confirm my
suspicions but the broken English and the pictures of the vehicles on the
site lead me to this conclusion.
If you find out where their head office is.. I'm in Beijing right
now so could check it out if they're nearby.
Seen a few electric busses here, actually with overhead wire pickups
but it was driving silently along the street with no wires so must
have battery backup. Electric bikes / mopeds are ubiquitous but not
seen any cars yet.
Apparently they are going to do a big push in 2008 to reduce the
(really quite bad) air pollution for the olympics. I'm told the only
vehicles allowed to run will be electric, including the busses and
subway.
The traffic is.. umm... amusing.
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/10/06, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
3500V? Wow I'm not sure why they didn't go with a smaller voltage.
Energy in capacitor =0.5C*V^2. Hence you double the voltage you get 4
times the energy storage capacity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Here is a link for info on the EEStor ultracapacitor bank planned.
>
> It has 2320 capacitors totalling 31F at 3500V, 336 lbs, 1.2 cubic feet,
> charges in 6 minutes and stores 52.2 KW-hrs. $3100 initially projected
> price.
> http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm
> http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/us7033406.pdf patent details
>
The list has had postings on EEStor several times since January, so
only the first one counts as "news". As was discussed before, the
energy density *depends* on a 3500V operating voltage - will someone
be able to use these in an EV or will it only work in an industrial
system?
Unless their setup can be rewired for 10x parallel operation, you'd
need a 10:1 dc-dc converter for either an AC or Zilla-based DC drive,
so a $3100 price doesn't include the expense of the additional
development needed for EV use.
By comparison, 363 lbs of Kokam 100Ah cells total 22.2kWh, cost about
$18-20K, and you can buy them now (but you can't force-feed them from
a 522kW spigot)...and short of a Madman's lab, where *do* you find a
3500V/150A power supply?!
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Sure, make a simple flyer with the EEA web info and (hopefully) local
chapter info and tell people to support homegrown efforts. This will
result in more cars available locally. I bet a lot of chapters would be
willing and able to convert cars for people that wanted to buy the
parts. With enough growth, the EAA could help with marketing, financing
and insuring.
gary
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don
Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Who Killed the Electric Car in Utica, NY
Go to this link:
http://mwpai.org/performingarts/performances/filmseries/#1662
I just found out about this performance this morning. It's occurring
later this week. Wish I were more prepared to support it with EV
literature, etc. Any suggestions what I might do to support EV's during
these shows? I don't have much time to prepare.
The shows are Wednesday Sept 13 & Friday September 15 2 PM & 7:30 PM
both days
I'm open to suggestions and any support you might offer
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
117 Dean St
Rome, NY 13440
315 337 2124
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Oh I thought they'd put lower voltage caps in series to get that
voltage. The earlier ultracap products were very low voltage. In that
scenario the individual cap's energy density is the same whether you put
them in parallel for a low voltage pack or in series for a high voltage
pack.
Still, I wonder if they can make a cap with more capacitance even if it
means a lower voltage rating. Typically a cap technology seem to
maintain a particular power density. Two plates separated by an
insulator, you reduce the insulator thickness by 1/2 and you get 2x the
capacitance and half the voltage rating but since the assembly is
thinner twice as many plates can fit the same package. Thus going with
1/2 the voltage rating can mean 4x the capacitance leaving the energy
density constant.
Of course all these technologies have physical limitations on what can
be done with voltage rating vs capacitance. I'm sure they are fully
aware of the difficulties in using a 3500V pack voltage, I guess it just
had to be that way.
Danny
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
On 9/10/06, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
3500V? Wow I'm not sure why they didn't go with a smaller voltage.
Energy in capacitor =0.5C*V^2. Hence you double the voltage you get 4
times the energy storage capacity.
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Ron I'm trying to get thru the same issues.
I have the torque-efficiency and power-efficiency curves for the
solectria ac42 up at
<http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/car/ac42%20efficiency%20vs%20power.jpg>http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/car/ac42%20efficiency%20vs%20power.jpg
http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/car/ac42%20efficiency-torque.jpg
in case it helps. You might be able to find similar curves for your
particular motor.
Personally I am trying to understand whether I need a gear at all -
given the broadness
of the efficiency curves I dont know if I stand to gain at all by
leaving the gearbox in.
To get better range on a built vehicle there was a great post a while
back on somebody's performance
mods - better tires, brake adjustment, eliminate toe-in, etc.
If you havent built anything yet (like me) I think the basics are
lightweight, aero body,
and controller with regen braking.
You can see a list of the top cars by range per stored battery energy in a post
I did a while back for an idea of realistic range and what it takes.
At 19:43 10/09/2006, you wrote:
From: Ron Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
If my design goal is 50 miles at 50 mph, it seems final drive ratio
and continuous motor rpm is important.
If 2400 watts moves 100 lbs of weight at 50 mph using a 1:1 gear
ratio, then the following table is for a 2400 lb car with final
drive ratios for a four speed transmission.
Ratio Wthr Wh/mile RPM
12 4,800 96 8104
9 6,400 128 6078
6 9,600 192 4052
4.5 12,800 256 3039
The drive ratio of 12, Wthr and Wh/mile is 50% of the drive ratio of
6. Therefore the range for any given battery pack would be twice as
much, however the motor rpm is also twice as much.
Do AC motors operate at continuous 8000 rpm? If you have an AC
motor, what gear, final drive ratio or motor rpm do you use for 50 mph?
What am I missing? Is the available torque at 6000-8000 rpm
insufficient for 50 mph?
Another calculator indicates that a 2400 lb car would require 162
ftlb torque at 6000 motor rpm for a 100 mph 1/4 mile... or 121 ftlb
@ 8000 rpm. Are there AC motors with this much torque at these rpm's?
How much torque/hp is required to accelerate a 2400 lb ev from
0-60mph in 7 seconds?
Thanks,
Ron Archer
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't
Haifa 32000
Israel
972 4 8293669
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Hello All, I have a 71 Karmann Ghia (semi-automatic) I would like to convert
to electric. I have found that a couple of people on the internet that have
already done conversions on their Ghias, so I know that it can be done. I do
not have any experiance working on cars, and have not found anyone that I can
hire to help me, as far as converting the car. I really love this car, but if I
had to, I would sell it to buy an EV. Would be ideal to have both together. I
have been looking at the how to convert plans on Ebay. I don't want to gut the
car, and then find that I can't do it. Does anyone have any suggestions on
where to start? Maybe a kit that might work? I am only looking for modest
performance,, maybe 45 miles an hour/ 40-45 mile range. My budget is also
unfortunately modest, so I would have to learn to do as much as possible
myself. I had my first EV, an Ego scooter all summer, and I don't want to go
back to using an ICE. I am in RI, does anyone know if there is someon!
e in the area (New England) that works on EVs? I totally new to all this and
any info to start me in the right direction would be great!! Thanks to all for
your time and knowledge, Rachel
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> Hello All, I have a 71 Karmann Ghia (semi-automatic) I would like
to convert to electric. I have found that a couple of people on the
internet that have already done conversions on their Ghias, so I know
that it can be done. I do not have any experiance working on cars, and
have not found anyone that I can hire to help me, as far as converting
the car. I really love this car, but if I had to, I would sell it to
buy an EV. Would be ideal to have both together. I have been looking
at the how to convert plans on Ebay. I don't want to gut the car, and
then find that I can't do it. Does anyone have any suggestions on
where to start? Maybe a kit that might work? I am only looking for
modest performance,, maybe 45 miles an hour/ 40-45 mile range. My
budget is also unfortunately modest, so I would have to learn to do as
much as possible myself. I had my first EV, an Ego scooter all summer,
and I don't want to go back to using an ICE. I am in RI, does anyone
know if there is someon!
> e in the area (New England) that works on EVs? I totally new to
all this and any info to start me in the right direction would be
great!! Thanks to all for your time and knowledge, Rachel
>
There are several Ghia's at EVAlbum.com. If the semi-auto is
considered a Type 1 transmission, you could try this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230026930097
- it's pretty basic and uses parallel/series switching, but it's
someplace to start and reasonably priced (although his website at
http://members.aol.com/BohanDesign/evkits/ lists them at $4K, in which
case I'd only buy his tranny adapter). The next step up from this
would be to add a SepEx controller (several hundred $$$ more, but
easier to drive).
You might want to ask around at local high schools to see if any
budding mechanics (and forward-thinking teachers) would like to help
on your project. Their metal shop should be able to make an adapter,
which would allow you to look for a wider range of motors. One benefit
of involving a local school is that they can make your project more
"public" - local businesses are good at supporting things like this.
If you go it yourself, look for a forklift shop or other repair place
that works on airport tugs, etc. They usually have motors of the right
type for EVs, as well as contactors and sometimes controllers. Also,
find a metal shop that will work with you making adapter plates, motor
mounts and such. Good luck!
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Rachel
You're in luck, there are some EVers in the area, though you need to ferret
them out. I'm in
Canton, CT. But Bob Rice is even closer to you. He's been hosting the EV
meetings lately, a good
place to meet people and learn what's involved. You could probably drive the
Ghia to the next
meeting and get more advice than you'll know what to do with. Stay on this list
and you'll get the
best information available.
Good luck
Dave Cover
--- Rachel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello All, I have a 71 Karmann Ghia (semi-automatic) I would like to
> convert to electric. I
> have found that a couple of people on the internet that have already done
> conversions on their
> Ghias, so I know that it can be done. I do not have any experiance working on
> cars, and have not
> found anyone that I can hire to help me, as far as converting the car. I
> really love this car,
> but if I had to, I would sell it to buy an EV. Would be ideal to have both
> together. I have been
> looking at the how to convert plans on Ebay. I don't want to gut the car, and
> then find that I
> can't do it. Does anyone have any suggestions on where to start? Maybe a kit
> that might work? I
> am only looking for modest performance,, maybe 45 miles an hour/ 40-45 mile
> range. My budget is
> also unfortunately modest, so I would have to learn to do as much as possible
> myself. I had my
> first EV, an Ego scooter all summer, and I don't want to go back to using an
> ICE. I am in RI,
> does anyone know if there is someon!
> e in the area (New England) that works on EVs? I totally new to all this
> and any info to start
> me in the right direction would be great!! Thanks to all for your time and
> knowledge, Rachel
>
>
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] is a bad address (evalbum) wanted to ask his advice on
converting a D50 I'm getting for $400
Anyone have links to others that have converted this truck?
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