EV Digest 5871
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: fast EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Magnecharger for sale in Sunnyvale, California $200
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery choice and range
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Auburn Kodiak c600
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Australian EV group
by Darin Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Electric Wheelbarrow?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Another car show
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric Wheelbarrow?
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Sac2PA trip: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Magnecharger for sale in Sunnyvale, California $200
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Australian EV group
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Dateline is stirring interest in EVs down under
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) E-8 nutral safety swith and Harold Zimmerman
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) EVLN(MINI QED plug-in hybrid: 0-60mph in 3.7 sec)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
To avoid all that switching of multiple relays and stuff,
I thought that when using a ceramic heater, the speed of
the fan will impact the amount of heat produced by the
heater, as it is self-regulating due to its property of
large increase of resistance with higher temps, so it
will draw less current at low fan speed due to the element
being hotter, as the air is not removed quickly and drawing
more current (producing more heat) at higher fan speeds.
I have heard of people simply using one relay to switch the
heating element on as soon as one of the heater positions is
chosen and still regulate the heat with the fan speed.
It could be necessary (or safer) to remove the lowest fan speed
(wire it as the next higher speed) if that would result
in very high temperature from the element, possibly too high
to be safe for the air ducts and controls.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> My fan switch has 4 indents. My thought is that I could get 3 more
> of these KUEP-11D15-12 and tap each fan speed power input to a coil
> on a KUEP-11D15-12.
If I understand it correctly, you want to use the fan motor voltage to
operate the relays? If so, this won't work.
The low/medium/high fan speed is accomplished with a resistor controller
(just like EVs in the 1900's). Low connects a higher resistance between
12v and the fan (~6v at the motor), Medium a lower resistance (~9v), and
High is direct to 12v with no resistor.
Relays depend on "instantaneous" application and removal of coil current
to turn on and off quickly. If you apply a low or slowly ramping
voltage, the contacts open and close slowly. This makes them arc more,
and reduces their voltage rating.
So, if you connect a relay coil across the fan, it sees a voltage that
slowly ramps up as the fan comes up to speed, and slowly ramps down when
the fan is turned off (it's a PM motor, and so acts as a generator). The
relay's contacts will quickly burn up.
If you use separate relay coils for each fan speed, each wired ahead of
the fan speed dropping resistors, the relays pull in fast, but still
drop out slowly due to the generated voltage from the motor.
> I would series the poles on each of the DPDT relays to be able to
> break my 192V
Each contact of the DPDT version is rated 3amps at 150vdc MAXIMUM.
Exceed these limits and the life goes down fast. Two contacts in series
will be ok for your 192vdc pack, which could reach perhaps 250vdc during
charging.
> and the 1.25A draw (average) from each individual element in the
> ceramic module should be within the range of the 3A contact rating.
It's clever to wire each element of the ceramic heater to its own relay
contacts. But what matters to the relay is the PEAK heater current that
it has to switch; not the average. I'd be surprised if the peak current
for *each* element isn't in excess of 4 amps. Test it at the coldest
ambient temperature, maximum supply voltage, and maximum airflow.
Heaters are tricky because the failure modes can be catastrophic. I'd
suggest doing a FMEA (Failure Mode Effect Analysis). This means you
consider each part individually; what is its worst failure mode, and
what happens next if it occurs? From best to worst-case:
Best: - system quits working safely, and user can tell it's broken
- system generates some kind of warning or alarm, but still works
- system keeps working, with no apparent consequences
Worst: - system sticks "on", melts down, starts a fire, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at how low the seats are and imagine that in an (empty)
parking-lot run, I came up out of my seat from the braking
deceleration. Since the acceleration is just as fast and
mainly limited by the traction of the wheels, it produced
over 1G of accelaration force. It was incredible.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:05 AM
To: steve ollerton
Subject: Re: fast EV
Ed,
I've ridden in the X1. It blurred my vision.
Here is the link to the video of the X1 making a 1/4 mile run against
only the track timer. Just a bit slow due to a wet track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjH4QUtZFo
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], steve ollerton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Anyone seen this before?
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: electric car
> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2006 21:58:56 +0100
> From: Edward Brightman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> Hi,
> Just seen this video, will yours be quite this fast?
>
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=3624337653720181416&sourceid=zeitg
eist
> Very impressive stuff.
> ED
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You still need a device to plug it into. I bet it's not as simple as the
Avcon. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Magnecharger for sale in Sunnyvale, California $200
> In my home town I noticed a Magnecharger for sale for $200
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/pts/206774222.html
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
>
> Its looks that the .57 factor would be correct if you use the full
> ampere-hour rating of the battery in your calculation.
Yes Roland, that is entirely correct, it is the max distance, to 100%DOD. It
gives the owner the choice of what DOD/SOC they take the batteries.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
I've got a brand new Auburn 600 with it's orignal packing. I'll open the
manual and see if I can get you some information about the 6-pin connector and
where all the wires go. Maybe there will be a name or part number on the
connector. However, my controller is about 25 miles away in nearby city and it
will
probably be next week before I get any info.
Welcome to the world of EV's.
Lawson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What about heating the water and circulating it like the ICE does?
That seems a very simple and safe way, can't overheat anything, not as
efficient I would guess.
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
To avoid all that switching of multiple relays and stuff,
I thought that when using a ceramic heater, the speed of
the fan will impact the amount of heat produced by the
heater, as it is self-regulating due to its property of
large increase of resistance with higher temps, so it
will draw less current at low fan speed due to the element
being hotter, as the air is not removed quickly and drawing
more current (producing more heat) at higher fan speeds.
I have heard of people simply using one relay to switch the
heating element on as soon as one of the heater positions is
chosen and still regulate the heat with the fan speed.
It could be necessary (or safer) to remove the lowest fan speed
(wire it as the next higher speed) if that would result
in very high temperature from the element, possibly too high
to be safe for the air ducts and controls.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
My fan switch has 4 indents. My thought is that I could get 3 more
of these KUEP-11D15-12 and tap each fan speed power input to a coil
on a KUEP-11D15-12.
If I understand it correctly, you want to use the fan motor voltage to
operate the relays? If so, this won't work.
The low/medium/high fan speed is accomplished with a resistor controller
(just like EVs in the 1900's). Low connects a higher resistance between
12v and the fan (~6v at the motor), Medium a lower resistance (~9v), and
High is direct to 12v with no resistor.
Relays depend on "instantaneous" application and removal of coil current
to turn on and off quickly. If you apply a low or slowly ramping
voltage, the contacts open and close slowly. This makes them arc more,
and reduces their voltage rating.
So, if you connect a relay coil across the fan, it sees a voltage that
slowly ramps up as the fan comes up to speed, and slowly ramps down when
the fan is turned off (it's a PM motor, and so acts as a generator). The
relay's contacts will quickly burn up.
If you use separate relay coils for each fan speed, each wired ahead of
the fan speed dropping resistors, the relays pull in fast, but still
drop out slowly due to the generated voltage from the motor.
I would series the poles on each of the DPDT relays to be able to
break my 192V
Each contact of the DPDT version is rated 3amps at 150vdc MAXIMUM.
Exceed these limits and the life goes down fast. Two contacts in series
will be ok for your 192vdc pack, which could reach perhaps 250vdc during
charging.
and the 1.25A draw (average) from each individual element in the
ceramic module should be within the range of the 3A contact rating.
It's clever to wire each element of the ceramic heater to its own relay
contacts. But what matters to the relay is the PEAK heater current that
it has to switch; not the average. I'd be surprised if the peak current
for *each* element isn't in excess of 4 amps. Test it at the coldest
ambient temperature, maximum supply voltage, and maximum airflow.
Heaters are tricky because the failure modes can be catastrophic. I'd
suggest doing a FMEA (Failure Mode Effect Analysis). This means you
consider each part individually; what is its worst failure mode, and
what happens next if it occurs? From best to worst-case:
Best: - system quits working safely, and user can tell it's broken
- system generates some kind of warning or alarm, but still works
- system keeps working, with no apparent consequences
Worst: - system sticks "on", melts down, starts a fire, etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There i an Australian EV group: http://www.aeva.asn.au/
and they have a fun-looking EV in production as well, but I cannot find the
website...
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know where there are pictures of Bob Schneeveis's electric
wheelbarrow he used to drive around in the pits many years ago at the Solar
and Electric 500 at PIR in Phoenix, Arizona?
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/447 - Release Date: 9/13/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to remember reading older posts comparing the "heated water" to the
"heated air" approaches. One of the benefits to electric heat is that its
quick. I would imagine that an electric/water heater could take as long or
longer to heat up than the ICE / water system.
Plus I already sacrificed the old heater core to use as the frame for my
ceramic element. I used the high temp plastic casing that was already around
the ceramic element in the cube heater and trimmed it down so it was square and
flush to the thickness of the old heater core. I then cut out all the fins in
the old heater core and trimmed the tubes to allow the ceramic element plus
high temp plastic shroud to fit right inside. Now the ceramic element is
buried right in the center of the old heater core, and the unit as a whole fits
right back into the slot it came out of. This maintains the seals of the
original core and the fan ducting works the same as it used to. I'll try to
get some pics posted here pretty soon.
I've power tested the unit out of the vehicle before I put it in. However I
haven't fired it up since installing back under the dash.
I'm going to order the P&B PDR series relay today and just go with the single
relay for the whole element.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:06 am
Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
To: [email protected]
> What about heating the water and circulating it like the ICE does?
> That seems a very simple and safe way, can't overheat anything,
> not as
> efficient I would guess.
> Jack
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > To avoid all that switching of multiple relays and stuff,
> > I thought that when using a ceramic heater, the speed of
> > the fan will impact the amount of heat produced by the
> > heater, as it is self-regulating due to its property of
> > large increase of resistance with higher temps, so it
> > will draw less current at low fan speed due to the element
> > being hotter, as the air is not removed quickly and drawing
> > more current (producing more heat) at higher fan speeds.
> >
> > I have heard of people simply using one relay to switch the
> > heating element on as soon as one of the heater positions is
> > chosen and still regulate the heat with the fan speed.
> > It could be necessary (or safer) to remove the lowest fan speed
> > (wire it as the next higher speed) if that would result
> > in very high temperature from the element, possibly too high
> > to be safe for the air ducts and controls.
> >
> > Hope this helps,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:55 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
> >
> >
> > MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> >
> >>My fan switch has 4 indents. My thought is that I could get 3 more
> >>of these KUEP-11D15-12 and tap each fan speed power input to a coil
> >> on a KUEP-11D15-12.
> >
> >
> > If I understand it correctly, you want to use the fan motor
> voltage to
> > operate the relays? If so, this won't work.
> >
> > The low/medium/high fan speed is accomplished with a resistor
> controller
> > (just like EVs in the 1900's). Low connects a higher resistance
> between
> > 12v and the fan (~6v at the motor), Medium a lower resistance
> (~9v), and
> > High is direct to 12v with no resistor.
> >
> > Relays depend on "instantaneous" application and removal of coil
> current
> > to turn on and off quickly. If you apply a low or slowly ramping
> > voltage, the contacts open and close slowly. This makes them arc
> more,
> > and reduces their voltage rating.
> >
> > So, if you connect a relay coil across the fan, it sees a
> voltage that
> > slowly ramps up as the fan comes up to speed, and slowly ramps
> down when
> > the fan is turned off (it's a PM motor, and so acts as a
> generator). The
> > relay's contacts will quickly burn up.
> >
> > If you use separate relay coils for each fan speed, each wired
> ahead of
> > the fan speed dropping resistors, the relays pull in fast, but
> still
> > drop out slowly due to the generated voltage from the motor.
> >
> >
> >>I would series the poles on each of the DPDT relays to be able to
> >>break my 192V
> >
> >
> > Each contact of the DPDT version is rated 3amps at 150vdc
> MAXIMUM.
> > Exceed these limits and the life goes down fast. Two contacts in
> series
> > will be ok for your 192vdc pack, which could reach perhaps
> 250vdc during
> > charging.
> >
> >
> >>and the 1.25A draw (average) from each individual element in the
> >>ceramic module should be within the range of the 3A contact rating.
> >
> >
> > It's clever to wire each element of the ceramic heater to its
> own relay
> > contacts. But what matters to the relay is the PEAK heater
> current that
> > it has to switch; not the average. I'd be surprised if the peak
> current
> > for *each* element isn't in excess of 4 amps. Test it at the
> coldest
> > ambient temperature, maximum supply voltage, and maximum airflow.
> >
> > Heaters are tricky because the failure modes can be
> catastrophic. I'd
> > suggest doing a FMEA (Failure Mode Effect Analysis). This means
> you
> > consider each part individually; what is its worst failure mode,
> and
> > what happens next if it occurs? From best to worst-case:
> >
> > Best: - system quits working safely, and user can tell it's broken
> > - system generates some kind of warning or alarm, but
> still works
> > - system keeps working, with no apparent consequences
> > Worst: - system sticks "on", melts down, starts a fire, etc.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
My schematic for my heater system is here:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html
This is a great example of a well though-out heater setup. You spec'd
fuses built for the job. There are snubbers on the switch contacts.
There are no freewheel diodes across the relay coils (and there
shouldn't be). The crowbar relay is a good way to deal with a stuck
relay or arc-over in the heater (though you could have used an SCR
instead of the relay).
I don't see what controls the fan. How did you do that part?
Don, I have to compliment you again on the GREAT job you have done on
your EV and your website in documenting it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Under the sink in our kitchen, we have a little hot water heater that
keeps about 1 gallon of water just below boiling, so that we have
instant hot water for tea. I was just thinking that if the temperature
switch were changed to one that handed DC as well as AC, this little
heater might work for the heating system in a car. When you get up in
the morning, plug it into AC while you take your shower and have
breakfast. Then when you're ready to hit the road, you'd already have
not water. Plug it into the traction pack at that point to keep it warm
while driving.
Don't know how well it would hold up to a vehicle environment, or if 1
gallon would be enough to keep the car toasty.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
Ok, I'll take the bait....
I even posted a video showing the trap speed and time of the X1 from a
standing start. That easily equals a time slip. I can see the X1 being
snake oil to you John. Advanced foreign technology often gets that
kind of response. It does however advance the EV cause for everyone,
except you of course, since you are the pinnacle of technology ;) You
also claimed in that video to have the fastest ride around. Or was it
quickest? I thought that was Rod's domain.
X1 = 11's WZ = 12's. Is it even a race? Definitely not a technology
race. We all know who the winner is there ;)
With the advent of the Tesla, I don't know how the X1 will do
commercially. But technologically, it's hard to beat a very well
engineered frame and light weight components to make an EV that did
11's in the 1/4 mile it's very first time to the track and has
incredible range and efficiency.
Here's the url to the X1's 11 second run, from a standing start,
racing only the track timer. A little slower ET due to the wet track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjH4QUtZFo
Mike
I personally love Ariel Atoms in all their custom configurations (AC
electric is only one of many folks)... but let's all try and be civil, ok?
So; 538 lbs of Lithium-Ion bats, 100 mile range, and the potential to be
charged in 4.5 hours (Wright notes he hasn't actually done that yet),
all for $150,000 using one of the fastest existing limited production
chassis in the world available right now. Sounds about right.
I like this very in-depth story on the process of building the X1 prototype:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2006/05/01/8375936/index.htm
The article describes how the hardware is actually relatively mundane,
it's the custom traction/power control software that is where all the
innovation (and speed) resides. Except for the mysterious bats, I
wouldn't call this vehicle "advanced foreign technology"... since the
software was supposedly designed in California.
Excerpt:
"So how do you build the EV of the future on a six-figure budget when GM
couldn't do it with more than $1 billion? For starters, you get all the
basic parts off the shelf, starting with a chassis. Wright found one he
liked in the Ariel Atom, a blazing-fast custom British roadster designed
by Simon Saunders, famous for his work with Aston Martin and Porsche.
Saunders loved Wright's idea and agreed not only to sell Wright a
chassis on the cheap but to style a production version if it ever came
to pass.
Next, Wright cobbled together a very special drivetrain. In an EV, three
main components replace the work of a standard engine and transmission:
batteries to supply the power, an inverter to control the flow of
electrical current, and a motor to drive the wheels. The EV1 used old
lead-acid batteries, and Toyota's Prius runs on more powerful
nickel-metal hydride cells. Neither type packs nearly enough punch to
make the X1 a rocket ride. After testing several types, Wright found an
Asian supplier of more expensive lithium-ion cells that balance
manageable weight with unbelievable power: 4,000 amps, to be precise,
about what you get from a small lightning bolt. Wright bought 538 pounds
of batteries, enough to supply the necessary juice and a 100-mile range.
They can also be recharged in just 4.5 hours.
The next two components, the motor and the inverter, came, ironically,
from a team of engineers that GM had worked with on the EV1. They later
founded AC Propulsion, a Southern California company that has since
refined drivetrain technology. For $25,000, Wright picked up a
high-performance motor that redlines at an incredible 13,300 rpm and a
custom inverter that acts as the X1's transmission, converting current
to control the motor's torque and speed. The final piece was to join the
motor to the wheels. Wright pulled a transaxle from an Acura RSX.
By itself, all the hardware is nothing new. "
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know where there are pictures of Bob Schneeveis's electric
wheelbarrow he used to drive around in the pits many years ago at the Solar
and Electric 500 at PIR in Phoenix, Arizona?
I think it's in Michael Hackleman's book, with some
footage on his video, also try Home Power magazine,
which I'm pretty sure had a picture.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[ref
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/74479 ]
If I read the POST correctly, making a trip in their EV from Sac to
Palo Alto (PA) would take too long. And driving an ICE or using alt
transportation that is essentially ICE powered is not what they
want either.
IMHO: I don't believe you can have it both ways right now: fast and
clean. Either you ICE your way to the PA Rally with or without your
EV in tow, or you spend the days it takes to get there, enjoy the
EVent and the drive back on EV power.
...
In my case, I have driven my S-10 Blazer EV conversion six round
trips to Sac and back using the available public conductive EV
charging.
Those were back during the days when I worked for hp having the
available time and money to do this. Today, my job does not allow
the time off needed to do this or pay enough to afford it.
But when I did, it was a fun experience. Yes, the battery
technology I am using (PbSO4) is not the type designed for regular
long trips like this. But I did gain a unique insight on the 'ins
and outs' of the use public EV charging on long trips, the limits
of my EV, and the 'cool feeling' of being part of 'club' of EV
drivers that have taken this type of EV road-warrior trips.
My 2000 trip to the Sacramento NEDRA drags
http://brucedp.orgfree.com/00saced/ took a day to get there, a day
at the EVent, and a day to get back. I spent the night before the
EVent in a motel, and again before I headed back.
>From Silicon Valley, I charged at: Fremont, Walnut Creek, Concord,
Vacaville, and Sacramento. The trip back was the reverse.
If our Sacramento EV Lister wanted to make this trip, it would be a
similar effort. Assuming their Production Ranger EV pack had a 50
mile range at a steady 55 mph and could easily charge off an AVCON
EV charging head or a conductive outlet, they would:
Leave Sacramento toward the SF bay area AVCON charging at:
Vacaville [ http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/95688_1.htm ]
Concord [ http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94520_2.htm ]
Walnut Creek [ http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94596_1.htm ]
Fremont [ http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94538_3.htm ]
Palo Alto [ http://www.evchargernews.com/regions/94301_1.htm ] and
Use the conductive EV charging outlets provided at the Rally.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence you are correct. There is a port on the vehicle that connects to
the BMS. This one is a large paddle and the heavy floor standing unit. It is
worth 50 dollars if it works.
Don Blazer
98 S-10 EV
In a message dated 9/14/2006 9:38:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
You still need a device to plug it into. I bet it's not as simple as the
Avcon. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Magnecharger for sale in Sunnyvale, California $200
> In my home town I noticed a Magnecharger for sale for $200
> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/pts/206774222.html
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow - there are currently 56 seeds (people who have already downloaded
it and are still sharing it with the world) and 19 peers (people still
downloading and sharing what they have)
I was expecting both these numbers to be less than 5.
Cool!
Mark
P.s. thanks for the link - I may be in Aus, but I don't get SBS :-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Ankers
> Subject: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
>
> Found this on mininova:
>
> http://www.mininova.org/tor/422839
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those in Sydney, there is the Sydney AEVA Chapter.
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/
Next meeting
7:30pm (for 8:00) on Tuesday 03-Oct-2006.
Norwest McDonalds
Norwest Business Park
6 Celebration Drive, BELLA VISTA
(Off Old Windsor Rd)
Some of the Sydney EV guys will be driving their cars in Kenthurst this
(I think) Sunday as part of the Orange Blossom Festival.
You can call Dr Michael Symons (02 9654 1571) for details.
There's usually a couple of hours of show and tell after the parade.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chelsea Sexton
> Sent: Friday, 15 September 2006 1:34 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Australian EV group
>
>
> Hey all...
>
> Plug In America has been getting several folks writing in
> from Australia
> since the Dateline piece (and a few before) wanting info on local EV
> resources. I've noticed several Aussies on this list- is there an EAA
> equivalent there at all or any specific place you'd like me
> to refer them
> to, besides the EAA and PIA sites?
>
> Thanks,
>
> chelsea
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, thanks for the kudos. I think one of the reasons why you like the
circuit so much is that you and others on the list helped out a great deal
with the design!
I will have to look at the fan circuit again. I used the standard VW
wiring, but do remember that I needed to do a couple of modifications to
switch off the heater if fan was not operational. I seem to remember a
diode in there somewhere...
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: September 14, 2006 10:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
Don Cameron wrote:
> My schematic for my heater system is here:
> http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater_install.html
This is a great example of a well though-out heater setup. You spec'd fuses
built for the job. There are snubbers on the switch contacts.
There are no freewheel diodes across the relay coils (and there shouldn't
be). The crowbar relay is a good way to deal with a stuck relay or arc-over
in the heater (though you could have used an SCR instead of the relay).
I don't see what controls the fan. How did you do that part?
Don, I have to compliment you again on the GREAT job you have done on your
EV and your website in documenting it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Since the airing of the show I have been getting a lot of inquires
from Australia just as Chelsea has been experiencing. I have been
referring them to the AEVA, instructions for getting on the EV List,
and various links. I feel this show has had a very good impact down
under. I think the scene of John Wayland blowing away a muscle car had
the most impact but I must admit that I am performance
Hits on the plasmaboyracing.com website: last week was 5600 page views,
our second best week to date (July 30th, 2006 is the highest with 6300
unique page views.) This week is on track for about the same, maybe a
little less.
Average since July 1 has been about 4000 views a week, prior to that is
was about 2000. Aug is the best month to date, with 23,000 page views.
As another oddity, since the site was stood up last year the busiest day
of the week is Tuesday by a 10% margin, next busiest is Friday, then
Wednesday.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two quick questions.
1: Does anyone have a current e-mail address or phone number for Harold
Z? I need to order a couple of parts from him
2: I have to replace the neutral safety switch on my E8. I'm told
that it is a "standard automotive part" and I should be able to get it
from any good auto parts store. Trouble is, all the parts stores now
are cross referenced by make/model of car and although they may *HAVE*
the part, they can't find it because "Neutral Safety Switch for a
General Electric E-8" does not compute or cross reference.
Anybody know a good way to find this. Harold, may have it, but I'd like
to purchase locally and save myself some time and shipping costs if
possible.
Thanks,
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jack, I was considering the water heater option and even did a basic
comparison between the two systems, documented here:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CabinHeater.html
Basically the water heater:
- takes more time to heat up (a few minutes)
- requires more room in the engine compartment
- does not require removing the dash and retrofitting heater cores
- the MES heater is completely self contained, OEM quality, with safety
switches
The electric heater:
- fits in the existing space
- must remove the dash and heater unit to retrofit
- requires safety circuits to be built
- quick heat
Although I purchased the MES Water heater, I was forced to use the electric
heater because of lack of space.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: September 14, 2006 9:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
What about heating the water and circulating it like the ICE does?
That seems a very simple and safe way, can't overheat anything, not as
efficient I would guess.
Jack
Cor van de Water wrote:
> To avoid all that switching of multiple relays and stuff, I thought
> that when using a ceramic heater, the speed of the fan will impact the
> amount of heat produced by the heater, as it is self-regulating due to
> its property of large increase of resistance with higher temps, so it
> will draw less current at low fan speed due to the element being
> hotter, as the air is not removed quickly and drawing more current
> (producing more heat) at higher fan speeds.
>
> I have heard of people simply using one relay to switch the heating
> element on as soon as one of the heater positions is chosen and still
> regulate the heat with the fan speed.
> It could be necessary (or safer) to remove the lowest fan speed (wire
> it as the next higher speed) if that would result in very high
> temperature from the element, possibly too high to be safe for the air
> ducts and controls.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Lee Hart
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 8:55 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Potter & Brumfield Relay for Ceramic Heater
>
>
> MIKE WILLMON wrote:
>
>>My fan switch has 4 indents. My thought is that I could get 3 more of
>>these KUEP-11D15-12 and tap each fan speed power input to a coil on a
>>KUEP-11D15-12.
>
>
> If I understand it correctly, you want to use the fan motor voltage to
> operate the relays? If so, this won't work.
>
> The low/medium/high fan speed is accomplished with a resistor
> controller (just like EVs in the 1900's). Low connects a higher
> resistance between 12v and the fan (~6v at the motor), Medium a lower
> resistance (~9v), and High is direct to 12v with no resistor.
>
> Relays depend on "instantaneous" application and removal of coil
> current to turn on and off quickly. If you apply a low or slowly
> ramping voltage, the contacts open and close slowly. This makes them
> arc more, and reduces their voltage rating.
>
> So, if you connect a relay coil across the fan, it sees a voltage that
> slowly ramps up as the fan comes up to speed, and slowly ramps down
> when the fan is turned off (it's a PM motor, and so acts as a
> generator). The relay's contacts will quickly burn up.
>
> If you use separate relay coils for each fan speed, each wired ahead
> of the fan speed dropping resistors, the relays pull in fast, but
> still drop out slowly due to the generated voltage from the motor.
>
>
>>I would series the poles on each of the DPDT relays to be able to
>>break my 192V
>
>
> Each contact of the DPDT version is rated 3amps at 150vdc MAXIMUM.
> Exceed these limits and the life goes down fast. Two contacts in
> series will be ok for your 192vdc pack, which could reach perhaps
> 250vdc during charging.
>
>
>>and the 1.25A draw (average) from each individual element in the
>>ceramic module should be within the range of the 3A contact rating.
>
>
> It's clever to wire each element of the ceramic heater to its own
> relay contacts. But what matters to the relay is the PEAK heater
> current that it has to switch; not the average. I'd be surprised if
> the peak current for *each* element isn't in excess of 4 amps. Test it
> at the coldest ambient temperature, maximum supply voltage, and maximum
airflow.
>
> Heaters are tricky because the failure modes can be catastrophic. I'd
> suggest doing a FMEA (Failure Mode Effect Analysis). This means you
> consider each part individually; what is its worst failure mode, and
> what happens next if it occurs? From best to worst-case:
>
> Best: - system quits working safely, and user can tell it's broken
> - system generates some kind of warning or alarm, but still works
> - system keeps working, with no apparent consequences
> Worst: - system sticks "on", melts down, starts a fire, etc.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(MINI QED plug-in hybrid: 0-60mph in 3.7 sec)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6104/
The 640 bhp MINI QED plug-in EV
[Images http://www.gizmag.com/go/6104/gallery/ ]
September 4, 2006 Q.E.D. is an abbreviation of the Latin phrase
"quod erat demonstrandum" which means, "which was to be
demonstrated". In simple terms, it indicates that something has
been definitively proven. Accordingly, the MINI QED electric
hybrid is aptly named as it dispels any doubts about the validity
of in-hub electric motors playing their part in the future of the
automobile. PML FlightLink designs and manufacture electric
motors, EV drive systems, joystick controls and controllers and
bespoke motors for specialist applications and the MINI QED was
built to showcase their expertise in wheelmotors, with a view to
supplying what we expect will be a booming market in electric
vehicle applications over coming decades.
The result is a MINI with four times the horsepower of a Cooper
S, supercar performance and the prospects of some very serious
EVs in the near future. The QED is a ripper, using four 120kW
(160bhp) wheel motors complete with invertors to convert momentum
back into stored energy under brakes. With one on each corner you
have Ferrari-like power and very controllable independent drive
on all four wheels.
In the MINI QED, this package offers a 0-60mph time of 3.7
seconds and a 150mph top speed supercar territory. An on-board
petrol engined generator offers enough electrons to run
continuously at motorway speeds without depleting the battery,
and you can plug it in at night and commute in full electric mode
if you wish.
As the invertor can exert more retardation than brakes, the
conventional disc brakes have been discarded altogether.
The inwheel motors and magnesium alloy wheels, and tyres, have a
total mass of 24kg. The original assembly mass on the MINI One
was 22.5kg. With so little difference in unsprung mass (the brake
hubs and discs have been removed), and full regenerative braking,
the ride is claimed to be no different.
More importantly, it means dynamic management of up to 750Nm
torque at each wheel, (3000Nm total) in either direction, to
ensure optimum use of available power. The system can also use
steering (driver intent and wheel alignment) and vehicle attitude
(gyroscopic sensors read pitch, roll and yaw) as inputs to the
traction control and vehicle stability systems. Put simply, the
vehicle stability system will be the key, and it will ultimately
be the software that determines what the optimum tractive
distribution will be at each instant - how the energy stored in
the 300V 70Amp Hour (700Amp peak) Lithium Polymer battery is most
effectively distributed.
The management system dynamically monitors each wheel to detect
skid onset and manages this state to obtain maximum non-skid
torque from wheel in both acceleration or braking modes this is
ABS and traction control and more because the power distribution
can be altered every thousandth of a second infinitely more
control than we currently have with conventional petrol engines
and power trains
Another of the tricks employed by PML is the use of a 350V, 11
Farad ultracapacitor. Capacitors are used to store electrical
energy and can release/absorb their energy 10 times faster than a
battery. Using an ultracapacitor means that acceleration or power
boost at higher speeds can get energy twice as fast at peak draw,
offering nitro-like performance.
Similarly, so that the car can drive a significant distance, PML
has used a very small, lightweight 250cc four stroke motor to
power a highly-efficient electrical generator. The engine is run
at a continuous speed and load, which results in optimum
efficiency fuel conversion. After delivering the energy to the
battery system the mileage translates to around 80mpg and gives
the QED a range of 1000 miles (1500 kilometres) between recharges
or visits to the petrol station. Driving it without the generator
offers a still healthy (by EV standards) range of 200-250 miles
(350 to 420 km depending on how much of a leadfoot the driver
is).
Three driving modes are available to the QED driver via the
touch-screen in-car display. Imagine starting your journey in the
city in Eco mode then selecting normal mode as you reach the
suburbs, and finally Sport mode as you hit the open road. The
all-electric Eco mode sees the four-stroke generator engine
dormant unless directed by the operator. In normal mode, the
generator starts when the battery drops below 50% charge and
sport mode offers enhanced performance.
The MINI was chosen as the platform for the QED because of its
broad appeal and iconic styling. Also, despite its diminutive
stance, it is not a light vehicle and has limited space to
integrate the substantial component set required for a top
performance electric vehicle in successfully converting this
vehicle then most others should be easy by comparison!
Its a shame they didnt pick a lightweight automobile because
the same 4 x 160 bhp motors in cars much lighter than the MINI
would produce perhaps record setting performance. The
availability of PML Flightlinks high efficiency brushless
permanent magnet sine wave Hi-Pa drive 24 phase water-cooled
motors in the near future on a commercial scale could ignite a
new industry in electric vehicles.
The vehicle development will continue for some time, especially
in the area of engine/fuel options and GPRS services and
features. Some of the features envisaged via the GPRS ink
include:
Journey / energy reserve matching Prediction of journey radius
available Automatic speed limit control (optional!) Driving
license optimised speed constraints Remote diagnosis of any
system fault conditions Auto reporting of breakdowns Auto
location for attending engineer
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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