--- Begin Message ---
I'm just passing along some info. It would be very nice if true. Lawrence
Rhodes....
"Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cleannewworld
Date: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:08 pm (PDT)
Kleiner's Secretive Battery-Ultracapacitor Company, EEStor
Shh!
Matt Marshall, March 12, 2006, http://www.mercurynews.com
Kleiner Perkins, the well-known Silicon Valley venture capital firm, is
backing an obsessively secret company called EEStor, which says it has
developed a battery-ultracapacitor technology that "blows away" current
lithium-ion technology in all aspects of performance.
See the story here by Toronto Star's Tyler Hamilton.
The company doesn't even want its response published, but Toronto Star
publishes it anyway:
"EEStor is not making public statements at present time," company
co-founder and chief executive Richard Weir replied when the Toronto Star
requested an interview via email. "EEStor would also like to have you and
your paper not publish any articles about our company and the Toronto Star
is certainly not authorized to publish this response."
This isn't entirely new. We mentioned EEStor before, pointing to a piece
that said Kleiner had led a $3M investment into the company. But Toronto
Star has more details.
Tags: EEStor Kleiner+Perkins Tyler+Hamilton battery 2 Linking Posts
TrackBack URL for this entry:
http://www.siliconbeat.com/cgi-bin/mt331/mt-tb.cgi/1209
EEStor Ultracapacitor Shuns Publicity
January 27, 2006 --- The Energy Blog
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/eestor_ultracap.html
Clean Break has an interesting post, much of what I have copied verbatim, on
a new ultracapacitor made by start-up company EEStor of Austin TX. I
thought the technology was potentially so important that a record of it was
needed on the Energy Blog. The company is very wary of publicity and the
following, which Tyler meticulously chased down, is about all that is known
about their technology:
a.. It is a parallel plate capacitor with barium titanate as the
dielectric.
b.. It claims that it can make a battery at half the cost per
kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of lead-acid batteries.
c.. As of last year selling price would start at $3,200 and fall to $2,100
in high-volume production
d.. The product weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours.
e.. The batteries fully charge in minutes as opposed to hours.
f.. The EEStor technology has been tested up to a million cycles with no
material degradation compared to lead acid batteries that optimistically
have 500 to 700 recharge cycles,
g.. Because it's a solid state battery rather than a chemical battery,
such being the case for lithium ion technology, there would be no
overheating and thus safety concerns with using it in a vehicle.
h.. With volume manufacturing it's expected to be cost-competitive with
lead-acid technology.
i.. As of last year, EEStor planned to build its own assembly line to
prove the battery can work and then license the technology to manufacturers
for volume production
j.. EEStor's technology could be used in more than low-speed electric
vehicles. The company envisions using it for full-speed pure electric
vehicles, hybrid-electrics (including plug-ins), military applications,
backup power and even large-scale utility storage for intermittent renewable
power sources such as wind and solar.
k.. They have an exclusive agreement with Feel Good Cars, a Canadian
manufacturer of the ZENN, a low speed electric car, to to purchase
high-power-density ceramic ultra capacitors called Electrical Storage Units
(ESU). FGC's exclusive worldwide right is for all personal transportation
uses under 15 KW drive systems (equivalent to 100 peak horse power) and for
vehicles with a curb weight of under 1200 kilograms not including batteries.
None of these claims except construction and cost are significantly better
than other ultracapacitors. Although they sometimes refer to the technology
as a battery, it is clearly an ultracapacitor.
Clean Break's resources were:
Kleiner Perkins' Latest Energy Investment, BusinessWeek online, Sept., 3,
2005
Feel Good Cars, Toronto, ON, Canada
MCL Capital Inc. announce Agreement in Principal with Feel Good Cars (In
section on History and Nature of the Business this agreement refers to FGC's
agreement with EEStor)
Technorati tags: ultracapacitors, energy storage, energy, technology
Kleiner Perkins' Latest Energy Investment
Justin Hibbard, Business Week, September 03, 2005
www.businessweek.com/the_thread/dealflow/archives/2005/09/kleiner_perkins_1.
html
Menlo Park, Calif. VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers in July led a $3
million preferred stock investment in EEStor Inc., a Cedar Park, Texas
startup that is developing breakthrough battery technology.
The company was founded in 2001 by Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard
S. Weir, who have backgrounds as senior managers in disk-storage technology
at such companies as IBM and Xerox PARC. They previously co-founded
disk-storage startup Tulip Memory Systems, where they won 16 U.S. patents.
According to a May, 2004 edition of Utility Federal Technology
Opportunities, an obscure trade newsletter, EEStor claims to make a battery
at half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of lead-acid
batteries. Specifically, the product weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52
kilowatt-hours. (For battery geeks: "The technology is basically a parallel
plate capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric," UFTO says.) No
hazardous or dangerous materials are used in manufacturing the ceramic-based
unit, which means it qualifies as what Silicon Valley types call
"cleantech."
As of last year, EEStor planned to build its own assembly line to prove the
battery can work and then license the technology to manufacturers for volume
production, UFTO says. Selling price would start at $3,200 and fall to
$2,100 in high-volume production. Of course, all of this may have changed
since KPCB got involved.
KPCB's investments are closely watched because the firm has made some of the
most successful bets in VC history (Google, Amazon.com, Netscape, AOL,
etc.). Energy investments carry a little extra risk for the firm since it is
relatively new to the sector. Speaking at Stanford University in February,
KPCB general partner John Doerr said the firm had made four energy
investments so far, including fuel-cell maker Ion America. It will be
interesting to watch how these companies develop.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
EEStor Capacitors- "This could change everything"
Lloyd Alter, Toronto, March 6, 2006
www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/eestor_capacito_1.php
Tyler Hamilton of the Toronto Star and website Clean Break has been digging
around a very secretive company. Asking them for information they said:
"EEStor is not making public statements at present time," company co-founder
and chief executive Richard Weir replied when the Toronto Star requested an
interview via email. "EEStor would also like to have you and your paper not
publish any articles about our company and the Toronto Star is certainly not
authorized to publish this response." which of course he published instantly
in Canada's biggest newspaper, BoingBoing style. . What they are doing in
Austin with their Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers money is developing a
"parallel plate capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric" or
hypercapacitor as John recently coined. Says Tyler: "BusinessWeek reported
an interesting comment from Kleiner's John Doerr, who recently spoke at a
California event where tech VCs gather to make their predictions for the
year. Doerr reportedly referred to an investment in an energy storage
company he declined to name, calling it Kleiner's "Highest-risk,
highest-reward" investment." Tyler's source describes it: (warning: if you
continue reading you have to eat this post)
The batteries fully charge in minutes as opposed to hours.
Whereas with lead acid batteries you might get lucky to have 500 to 700
recharge cycles, the EEStor technology has been tested up to a million
cycles with no material degradation.
EEStor's technology could be used in more than low-speed electric vehicles.
The company envisions using it for full-speed pure electric vehicles,
hybrid-electrics (including plug-ins), military applications, backup power
and even large-scale utility storage for intermittent renewable power
sources such as wind and solar.
Because it's a solid state battery rather than a chemical battery, such
being the case for lithium ion technology, there would be no overheating and
thus safety concerns with using it in a vehicle.
Finally, with volume manufacturing it's expected to be cost-competitive with
lead-acid technology.
"It's the holy grail of battery technology," said my source. "It means you
could do a highway capable electric city car that would recharge in three or
four minutes and drive you from Toronto to Montreal. Consumers wouldn't
notice the difference from driving an electric car versus a gas-powered
car."
>From his Toronto Star article:
Energy storage has long been the bottleneck for innovation, holding back new
energy-sucking features in mobile devices and preventing everything from the
electric car to renewable power systems from reaching their full potential.
Build a radically better battery at lower cost, experts say, and the world
we know will be forever transformed.
"There's been nothing big or disruptive, and we're due for it," says
Nicholas Parker, chairman of the Cleantech Venture Network, which tracks
investment in so-called clean technologies. He says energy storage is one of
the hottest areas for venture capital funding right now. "Right across the
board, better energy storage is essential."
Among EEStor's claims is that its "electrical energy storage unit" could
pack nearly 10 times the energy punch of a lead-acid battery of similar
weight and, under mass production, would cost half as much.
It also says its technology more than doubles the energy density of
lithium-ion batteries in most portable computer and mobile gadgets today,
but could be produced at one-eighth the cost.
If that's not impressive enough, EEStor says its energy storage technology
is "not explosive, corrosive, or hazardous" like lead-acid and most
lithium-ion systems, and will outlast the life of any commercial product it
powers. It can also absorb energy quickly, meaning a small electric car
containing a 17-kilowatt-hour system could be fully charged in four to six
minutes versus hours for other battery technologies, the company claims.
According to patent documents obtained by the Star, EEStor's invention will
do no less than "replace the electrochemical battery" where it's already
used in hybrid and electric vehicles, power tools, electronic gadgets and
renewable energy systems, from solar-powered homes to grid-connected wind
farms.
"If everything they say is true, then that's pretty amazing," says MacMurray
Whale, an energy analyst at Sprott Securities and a former professor of
mechanical engineering at the University of Victoria. "To do all of that is
unheard of when you look at any other battery technology out there."
Tyler Hamilton does not impress easily- he was not impressed with us for
falling head over heels in love with the magenn turbine Don't bother
googling for a website for EEStor- you will get a clothing site. But do read
::Clean Break and ::The Toronto Star before they send in the lawyers or
break his fingers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
For more information
Full Collection of EEStories at http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm
US Patent # 7,033,406 - April 25, 2006 - "Electrical-Energy-Storage Unit
(EESU) Utilizing Ceramic and Integrated-Circuit Technologies for Replacement
of Electrochemical Batteries" [ PDF Format ]
http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/us7033406.pdf
Messages in this topic (1)
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From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: OT: web host and domain name registrars
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 15:18:11 -0700
To: [email protected]
This is a note to update the list on the responses I've received. I
certainly didn't receive as many as I'd hoped for (only 7), I know many
more list members out there have web sites.
The question I posted one week ago:
> I would like to hear who you recommend, and your horror stories, for
> both registering a domain name and for hosting a site (they don't have
> to be the same.)
The responses I have received about this point to godaddy.com for both
name registration and hosting (2 votes for each.) No other registrar or
hosting company was mentioned more than once.
If anybody is willing to add input to this please e-mail me off list
(we don't want to upset David :-) at paul-g at comcast dot net
Thanx,
Paul "neon" G.
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:29:23 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
We've already been discussing that for awhile now. We'd all love to see
it happen but I'm skeptical of the reality of these promises. Well,
who's to say what's possible with the technology but the price given for
a many-cell'ed pack wouldn't even seem to pay for attaching the
components together. Perhaps they can reduce the component count with
larger caps.
It would not only revolutionize EVs but countless industrial and
consumer products.
Danny
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>I'm just passing along some info. It would be very nice if true. Lawrence
>Rhodes....
>
> "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
> Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cleannewworld
> Date: Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:08 pm (PDT)
>
>Kleiner's Secretive Battery-Ultracapacitor Company, EEStor
>
> Shh!
>Matt Marshall, March 12, 2006, http://www.mercurynews.com
>Kleiner Perkins, the well-known Silicon Valley venture capital firm, is
>backing an obsessively secret company called EEStor, which says it has
>developed a battery-ultracapacitor technology that "blows away" current
>lithium-ion technology in all aspects of performance.
>See the story here by Toronto Star's Tyler Hamilton.
>The company doesn't even want its response published, but Toronto Star
>publishes it anyway:
> "EEStor is not making public statements at present time," company
>co-founder and chief executive Richard Weir replied when the Toronto Star
>requested an interview via email. "EEStor would also like to have you and
>your paper not publish any articles about our company and the Toronto Star
>is certainly not authorized to publish this response."
>This isn't entirely new. We mentioned EEStor before, pointing to a piece
>that said Kleiner had led a $3M investment into the company. But Toronto
>Star has more details.
>Tags: EEStor Kleiner+Perkins Tyler+Hamilton battery 2 Linking Posts
>
>TrackBack URL for this entry:
>http://www.siliconbeat.com/cgi-bin/mt331/mt-tb.cgi/1209
>
>EEStor Ultracapacitor Shuns Publicity
>January 27, 2006 --- The Energy Blog
>http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/01/eestor_ultracap.html
>Clean Break has an interesting post, much of what I have copied verbatim, on
>a new ultracapacitor made by start-up company EEStor of Austin TX. I
>thought the technology was potentially so important that a record of it was
>needed on the Energy Blog. The company is very wary of publicity and the
>following, which Tyler meticulously chased down, is about all that is known
>about their technology:
> a.. It is a parallel plate capacitor with barium titanate as the
>dielectric.
> b.. It claims that it can make a battery at half the cost per
>kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of lead-acid batteries.
> c.. As of last year selling price would start at $3,200 and fall to $2,100
>in high-volume production
> d.. The product weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52 kilowatt-hours.
> e.. The batteries fully charge in minutes as opposed to hours.
> f.. The EEStor technology has been tested up to a million cycles with no
>material degradation compared to lead acid batteries that optimistically
>have 500 to 700 recharge cycles,
> g.. Because it's a solid state battery rather than a chemical battery,
>such being the case for lithium ion technology, there would be no
>overheating and thus safety concerns with using it in a vehicle.
> h.. With volume manufacturing it's expected to be cost-competitive with
>lead-acid technology.
> i.. As of last year, EEStor planned to build its own assembly line to
>prove the battery can work and then license the technology to manufacturers
>for volume production
> j.. EEStor's technology could be used in more than low-speed electric
>vehicles. The company envisions using it for full-speed pure electric
>vehicles, hybrid-electrics (including plug-ins), military applications,
>backup power and even large-scale utility storage for intermittent renewable
>power sources such as wind and solar.
> k.. They have an exclusive agreement with Feel Good Cars, a Canadian
>manufacturer of the ZENN, a low speed electric car, to to purchase
>high-power-density ceramic ultra capacitors called Electrical Storage Units
>(ESU). FGC's exclusive worldwide right is for all personal transportation
>uses under 15 KW drive systems (equivalent to 100 peak horse power) and for
>vehicles with a curb weight of under 1200 kilograms not including batteries.
>None of these claims except construction and cost are significantly better
>than other ultracapacitors. Although they sometimes refer to the technology
>as a battery, it is clearly an ultracapacitor.
>Clean Break's resources were:
>Kleiner Perkins' Latest Energy Investment, BusinessWeek online, Sept., 3,
>2005
>Feel Good Cars, Toronto, ON, Canada
>MCL Capital Inc. announce Agreement in Principal with Feel Good Cars (In
>section on History and Nature of the Business this agreement refers to FGC's
>agreement with EEStor)
>Technorati tags: ultracapacitors, energy storage, energy, technology
>Kleiner Perkins' Latest Energy Investment
>Justin Hibbard, Business Week, September 03, 2005
>www.businessweek.com/the_thread/dealflow/archives/2005/09/kleiner_perkins_1.
>html
>Menlo Park, Calif. VC firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers in July led a $3
>million preferred stock investment in EEStor Inc., a Cedar Park, Texas
>startup that is developing breakthrough battery technology.
>The company was founded in 2001 by Richard D. Weir, Carl Nelson, and Richard
>S. Weir, who have backgrounds as senior managers in disk-storage technology
>at such companies as IBM and Xerox PARC. They previously co-founded
>disk-storage startup Tulip Memory Systems, where they won 16 U.S. patents.
>According to a May, 2004 edition of Utility Federal Technology
>Opportunities, an obscure trade newsletter, EEStor claims to make a battery
>at half the cost per kilowatt-hour and one-tenth the weight of lead-acid
>batteries. Specifically, the product weighs 400 pounds and delivers 52
>kilowatt-hours. (For battery geeks: "The technology is basically a parallel
>plate capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric," UFTO says.) No
>hazardous or dangerous materials are used in manufacturing the ceramic-based
>unit, which means it qualifies as what Silicon Valley types call
>"cleantech."
>As of last year, EEStor planned to build its own assembly line to prove the
>battery can work and then license the technology to manufacturers for volume
>production, UFTO says. Selling price would start at $3,200 and fall to
>$2,100 in high-volume production. Of course, all of this may have changed
>since KPCB got involved.
>KPCB's investments are closely watched because the firm has made some of the
>most successful bets in VC history (Google, Amazon.com, Netscape, AOL,
>etc.). Energy investments carry a little extra risk for the firm since it is
>relatively new to the sector. Speaking at Stanford University in February,
>KPCB general partner John Doerr said the firm had made four energy
>investments so far, including fuel-cell maker Ion America. It will be
>interesting to watch how these companies develop.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>
>EEStor Capacitors- "This could change everything"
>
>Lloyd Alter, Toronto, March 6, 2006
>www.treehugger.com/files/2006/03/eestor_capacito_1.php
>Tyler Hamilton of the Toronto Star and website Clean Break has been digging
>around a very secretive company. Asking them for information they said:
>"EEStor is not making public statements at present time," company co-founder
>and chief executive Richard Weir replied when the Toronto Star requested an
>interview via email. "EEStor would also like to have you and your paper not
>publish any articles about our company and the Toronto Star is certainly not
>authorized to publish this response." which of course he published instantly
>in Canada's biggest newspaper, BoingBoing style. . What they are doing in
>Austin with their Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers money is developing a
>"parallel plate capacitor with barium titanate as the dielectric" or
>hypercapacitor as John recently coined. Says Tyler: "BusinessWeek reported
>an interesting comment from Kleiner's John Doerr, who recently spoke at a
>California event where tech VCs gather to make their predictions for the
>year. Doerr reportedly referred to an investment in an energy storage
>company he declined to name, calling it Kleiner's "Highest-risk,
>highest-reward" investment." Tyler's source describes it: (warning: if you
>continue reading you have to eat this post)
>The batteries fully charge in minutes as opposed to hours.
>Whereas with lead acid batteries you might get lucky to have 500 to 700
>recharge cycles, the EEStor technology has been tested up to a million
>cycles with no material degradation.
>EEStor's technology could be used in more than low-speed electric vehicles.
>The company envisions using it for full-speed pure electric vehicles,
>hybrid-electrics (including plug-ins), military applications, backup power
>and even large-scale utility storage for intermittent renewable power
>sources such as wind and solar.
>Because it's a solid state battery rather than a chemical battery, such
>being the case for lithium ion technology, there would be no overheating and
>thus safety concerns with using it in a vehicle.
>Finally, with volume manufacturing it's expected to be cost-competitive with
>lead-acid technology.
>"It's the holy grail of battery technology," said my source. "It means you
>could do a highway capable electric city car that would recharge in three or
>four minutes and drive you from Toronto to Montreal. Consumers wouldn't
>notice the difference from driving an electric car versus a gas-powered
>car."
>>From his Toronto Star article:
>Energy storage has long been the bottleneck for innovation, holding back new
>energy-sucking features in mobile devices and preventing everything from the
>electric car to renewable power systems from reaching their full potential.
>Build a radically better battery at lower cost, experts say, and the world
>we know will be forever transformed.
>"There's been nothing big or disruptive, and we're due for it," says
>Nicholas Parker, chairman of the Cleantech Venture Network, which tracks
>investment in so-called clean technologies. He says energy storage is one of
>the hottest areas for venture capital funding right now. "Right across the
>board, better energy storage is essential."
>Among EEStor's claims is that its "electrical energy storage unit" could
>pack nearly 10 times the energy punch of a lead-acid battery of similar
>weight and, under mass production, would cost half as much.
>It also says its technology more than doubles the energy density of
>lithium-ion batteries in most portable computer and mobile gadgets today,
>but could be produced at one-eighth the cost.
>If that's not impressive enough, EEStor says its energy storage technology
>is "not explosive, corrosive, or hazardous" like lead-acid and most
>lithium-ion systems, and will outlast the life of any commercial product it
>powers. It can also absorb energy quickly, meaning a small electric car
>containing a 17-kilowatt-hour system could be fully charged in four to six
>minutes versus hours for other battery technologies, the company claims.
>According to patent documents obtained by the Star, EEStor's invention will
>do no less than "replace the electrochemical battery" where it's already
>used in hybrid and electric vehicles, power tools, electronic gadgets and
>renewable energy systems, from solar-powered homes to grid-connected wind
>farms.
>"If everything they say is true, then that's pretty amazing," says MacMurray
>Whale, an energy analyst at Sprott Securities and a former professor of
>mechanical engineering at the University of Victoria. "To do all of that is
>unheard of when you look at any other battery technology out there."
>Tyler Hamilton does not impress easily- he was not impressed with us for
>falling head over heels in love with the magenn turbine Don't bother
>googling for a website for EEStor- you will get a clothing site. But do read
>::Clean Break and ::The Toronto Star before they send in the lawyers or
>break his fingers.
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----
>
>For more information
>Full Collection of EEStories at http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/weir.htm
>US Patent # 7,033,406 - April 25, 2006 - "Electrical-Energy-Storage Unit
>(EESU) Utilizing Ceramic and Integrated-Circuit Technologies for Replacement
>of Electrochemical Batteries" [ PDF Format ]
>http://www.rexresearch.com/weir/us7033406.pdf
>Messages in this topic (1)
>
>
>
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Subject: RE: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:57:28 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Danny Miller wrote:
> We've already been discussing that for awhile now. We'd all
> love to see it happen but I'm skeptical of the reality of
> these promises.
Let's not forget that completely independent of the reality of the
promises made for this product, including its cost, is the challenge of
using a 3500V power source in our sorts of applications.
The big difference between this technology and "conventional" ultracaps
seems to be that this device relies on being charged to 3500V to achieve
the energy storage numbers quoted, while conventional ultracaps are low
voltage devices that may be stacked in series parallel to achieve pretty
much any required voltage or energy storage requirement.
Even if this ultracap becomes commercially available at the sort of
costs that have been predicted, there will still be the cost associated
with a DC/DC that can accept perhaps 1000-3500V in and deliver a useful
voltage and current output. The press release states that a 17kWh pack
could be recharged in 4-6min; at the 6min rate, this means the pack can
accept charge at a rate of 170kW, and if we assume it can therefore
deliver it at a similar rate, then the DC/DC would need to be capable of
something like 560A at 300VDC output.
Note also that to charge this device requires a charger that can accept
common AC line voltage and boost it to the 3500V full charge voltage of
the cap. For their hypothetical 6min charge this 170kW charger would
need about 700A @ 240VAC to achieve this feat, and would need to be able
to deliver an output of about 48A @ 3500V or proportionately more
current into a discharged or partially charged cap; say 170A into a cap
discharged to 1000A.
Finally, note that while the device stores 52kWh in a 400lb package,
this is the *total* energy stored when fully charged to 3500V. You
cannot get all of this energy out unless you can discharge it to 0V
(while doing something useful with the energy)! Discharging it over a
more practical range of 3500-1000V the useable capacity is significantly
less.
Cheers,
Roger.
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From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: 2/0 welding cable sources (was Re: Dodge D50 conversion)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:47:47 -0600
To: [email protected]
I bought my 2/0 welding cable at my local Airgas shop. Good price,
quick availability. I picked it up at the store myself to save on
shipping. It's damn heavy, though. Be prepared, or bring a friend.
I just dug out my invoice. It was orange 2/0 Ultra Flex and cost
$2.45/ft for a 100 foot roll. I don't think I could get the orange in
smaller quantities.
This was in August of 2005, so I'd expect it to be pricier these days.
The strands are bare copper, not tinned.
I don't see orange as an available color on their web site today. You
might want to give your local Airgas store a call and see what they can
do for you. I was very pleased with them (Bend, Oregon, USA).
Hope this helps,
Doug
On Sep 13, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
> Mark McCurdy wrote:
>
>> oookay, hmm,
>> http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/0020x.html
>> how about this?
>
> This is good, and the price isn't too outrageous.
>
> It doesn't seem that EV Parts sells cable anymore (didn't see it on
> their site), but KTA lists 2.0 Prestoflex for $3/ft (but the pricelist
> seems to be a year out of date).
>
> EV Source has some very nice 2/0 cable in red or black with
> individually
> tinned strands. It is a bit more pricey ($4.53/ft), but is probably
> worth the premium.
>
> One thing to watch for is the cost of shipping a decent length of 2/0.
> KTA lists their 2/0 at 1#/ft. You may be best off to check welding
> supply places local to you, or better still, wire/cable suppliers local
> to you. The wire/cable places will probably have the best price, but
> buying local and saving the shipping costs ought to be cheaper than
> buying online from someplace across the country. For a local source of
> tinned cable such as EV Source supplies, you'd have to check marine
> supply stores.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:11:28 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
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Indeed making the controller would be quite tricky. There are a limited
number of ways to convert 3500V to say 100v with efficiency. Few
transistors work in this voltage range. It even requires very well
insulated inductors.
Of course the claims of being able to charge in minutes is limited by
the power available. It is not so difficult to build a powerful 3500V
supply, getting a "pole pig" transformer would do it. It's more a
question- as always- of tapping a powerful enough electrical source.
The same is true for any battery technology now or in the future.
Typically a controller isn't "in trouble" until the voltage drops below
that needed to run the motor. Thus a controller running off a 3500V cap
would be ok down to like 100V. That means 99.9% of the energy is
usable! Heck even discharging to 1000V means you get to use almost 92%
of the energy so it's just splitting hairs. Lead acid is FAR more
limited by Peukert's and a need to keep the depth of discharge low to
preserve their life.
But like I say, these devices and their price are unproven, and
potentially fictitious.
Danny
Roger Stockton wrote:
>Let's not forget that completely independent of the reality of the
>promises made for this product, including its cost, is the challenge of
>using a 3500V power source in our sorts of applications.
>
>Finally, note that while the device stores 52kWh in a 400lb package,
>this is the *total* energy stored when fully charged to 3500V. You
>cannot get all of this energy out unless you can discharge it to 0V
>(while doing something useful with the energy)! Discharging it over a
>more practical range of 3500-1000V the useable capacity is significantly
>less.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Roger.
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:16:46 -0500
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Wire Glue
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Check out this odd product:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16133
Claims to be a conductive glue to use instead of solder. No idea how it
performs. One thing that came to mind is using it instead of solder for
those battery terminals which have to be spot welded, not soldered,
because they can't take the heat of the soldering iron.
Well I wouldn't bet the farm on it performing such miracles, probably
its resistance is high and its mechanical toughness low for bonding to
high current batteries. Still, surely somebody's going to want to try
this and/or think up a good use for it.
Danny
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:23:01 -0700
From: Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 07:11:28PM -0500, Danny Miller wrote:
>
> Of course the claims of being able to charge in minutes is limited by
> the power available.
If you were charging at these rates, you would likely be charging from a
sister bank of ultracaps. Especially if the price was the same as quoted.
So you "just" need to buck-boost the voltage from one pack to the other
tell you're full.
> But like I say, these devices and their price are unproven, and
> potentially fictitious.
The sobering truth. :)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 17:46:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Post Petroleum Car Show
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi.
Are you the same Mike Thompson that was an accoustic engineer for ESS and
former hang glider pilot?
Bob Lemke
Michael Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Electric Vehicle Proponents:
I am writing to solicit your help in our efforts to educate our
community on the potential for electric vehicles. A group I am
associated with called APPLE (Alliance for a Post Petroleum Local
Economy) has planned a day of events dedicated to the future of personal
transportation. It will be held in Grass Valley, CA on November 19, 2006.
The day will feature a Post Petroleum Car Show, workshops and
presentations on the topics of electric, biofuel and fuel cell vehicles.
We are currently looking for manufacturers of cars, cycles, scooters
bikes, or any other mode of transportation who may want to participate
in the car show. We are also interested in including any garage
inventors and/or hobbyists who want to show their wares. Participation
and attendance to the car show is free. There will be a charge for the
workshops and evening events.
I am hoping that you might be able to help us in two ways: 1) finding
people or companies to participate in the Post Petroleum Car Show, and
2) helping us publicize the event.
APPLE is a grassroots, non-profit organization dedicated to supporting
social entrepreneurs in the effort to move our community toward a
sustainable future. You may find out more about APPLE at www.apple-nc.org.
Please see the press release below for details and contact information
about the event.
Best regards,
Mike Thompson
"Whatcha Gonna Drive?"
... to a sustainable world when fossil fuels are no longer an affordable
option: Biodiesel, Electric, Fuel Cell or Hybrids?
On Sunday, November 19, at the Center for the Arts on Main St. in Grass
Valley, experts, hobbyists, and the simply curious will gather to try to
answer these questions: What will replace fossil fuels as we move toward
the post-petroleum era? What are the pros and cons of biofuels, fuel
cell technology, and electric vehicles? Are hybrids the best way to go?
What should your next car be? It seems everyone is talking about this
lately.
APPLE of Nevada County (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) is
hosting a two-part event. First, the free "Post-Petroleum Car Show"
(2:00 - 6:00 pm) will fill the parking lot directly behind The Center
for the Arts (concurrent with demos, workshops, and films indoors). We
expect some high-mileage cars, a variety of electric cars and bikes, and
some more exotic inventions.
Then, at 6:30 pm, in the main auditorium, APPLE will present "Fueling
the Future." Two dynamic speakers, fuel cell researcher Glenn Rambach
and Executive Director of the Biodiesel Council of California, Kimber
Holmes, will give illustrated presentations showing why we are on the
brink of a massive change in personal transportation and the
technologies available to help us make the transition. The evening will
conclude with a panel discussion to field comments and questions from
those in attendance.
There will also be information tables on APPLE projects and other local
transportation-related groups, along with food, festivities, and fun!
More details on the program and a vehicle list will be posted at
www.apple-nc.org as the event draws closer. APPLE is inviting
participation from car enthusiasts, alternative vehicle (or fuel)
researchers/inventors, and especially those who have vehicles
appropriate for the "Post-Petroleum Car Show." To find out more, call
(530) 274-3435 or e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Subject: RE: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:15:54 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Danny Miller wrote:
> Heck even discharging to 1000V means you get to use almost 92%
> of the energy so it's just splitting hairs.
Yes, this is correct; the calculation I was thinking of had been for
operating the cap over the 2000-3500V range, which results in only 35kWh
of the 52.7kWh total being usable.
The point I was trying to make is that however real (or not) the claims
are for this technology, it requires significantly different and
challenging support hardware before it can be practically used in EVs of
the sort we are familiar with. I can't imagine this hardware will be
cheap, and I'm not aware of any off-the-shelf DC/DCs we can adapt for
the purpose from industry, etc.
Cheers,
Roger.
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 18:48:13 -0600
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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It wouldn't be cheap, but could you charge 3500V by having, say, 10
parallel strings of 30 PbA cellseach? Charge the batteries with a
PFC-30, which at 30A could supply 50kwh overnight, then switch the 10
strings to series in the morning and charge the capacitors while your
showering and having breakfast?
Or could you do a similar thing with some ultracaps instead of
batteries--charge the ultracaps in parallel strings, switch to a series
string and dump them into the EEStor, then repeat this cycle over and
over until the EEStor is up to 3500V?
Bill Dennis
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Wire Glue
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:22:50 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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See a segment on Made in America, how printed circuit boards are made. They
use a conductive glue that was flash on to all the connections all at the
same time instead of using solder. It may be a low ampere rating only.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 6:16 PM
Subject: Wire Glue
> Check out this odd product:
> http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16133
>
> Claims to be a conductive glue to use instead of solder. No idea how it
> performs. One thing that came to mind is using it instead of solder for
> those battery terminals which have to be spot welded, not soldered,
> because they can't take the heat of the soldering iron.
>
> Well I wouldn't bet the farm on it performing such miracles, probably
> its resistance is high and its mechanical toughness low for bonding to
> high current batteries. Still, surely somebody's going to want to try
> this and/or think up a good use for it.
>
> Danny
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: 2/0 welding cable sources (was Re: Dodge D50 conversion)
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:26:33 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Be sure you check the voltage rating of welding wire. It should be mark on
wire. There is low voltage type and high voltage type up to 600 V.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: 2/0 welding cable sources (was Re: Dodge D50 conversion)
> I bought my 2/0 welding cable at my local Airgas shop. Good price,
> quick availability. I picked it up at the store myself to save on
> shipping. It's damn heavy, though. Be prepared, or bring a friend.
>
> I just dug out my invoice. It was orange 2/0 Ultra Flex and cost
> $2.45/ft for a 100 foot roll. I don't think I could get the orange in
> smaller quantities.
>
> This was in August of 2005, so I'd expect it to be pricier these days.
>
> The strands are bare copper, not tinned.
>
> I don't see orange as an available color on their web site today. You
> might want to give your local Airgas store a call and see what they can
> do for you. I was very pleased with them (Bend, Oregon, USA).
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Doug
>
> On Sep 13, 2006, at 2:04 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> > Mark McCurdy wrote:
> >
> >> oookay, hmm,
> >> http://store.weldingdepot.com/cgi/weldingdepot/0020x.html
> >> how about this?
> >
> > This is good, and the price isn't too outrageous.
> >
> > It doesn't seem that EV Parts sells cable anymore (didn't see it on
> > their site), but KTA lists 2.0 Prestoflex for $3/ft (but the pricelist
> > seems to be a year out of date).
> >
> > EV Source has some very nice 2/0 cable in red or black with
> > individually
> > tinned strands. It is a bit more pricey ($4.53/ft), but is probably
> > worth the premium.
> >
> > One thing to watch for is the cost of shipping a decent length of 2/0.
> > KTA lists their 2/0 at 1#/ft. You may be best off to check welding
> > supply places local to you, or better still, wire/cable suppliers local
> > to you. The wire/cable places will probably have the best price, but
> > buying local and saving the shipping costs ought to be cheaper than
> > buying online from someplace across the country. For a local source of
> > tinned cable such as EV Source supplies, you'd have to check marine
> > supply stores.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
> >
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
>
--- End Message ---
