EV Digest 5877
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Any Ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Any Ideas
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Wire Glue
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Post Petroleum Car Show
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Wire Glue
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Wire Glue
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Electricross Article
by Dave Stensland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Pricing
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Post Petroleum Car Show
by Michael Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Evparts.com down?
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Another One! Update
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Batte
ry
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny wrote:
Indeed making the controller would be quite tricky. There are a limited
number of ways to convert 3500V to say 100v with efficiency.
What's the highest voltage AC motor you have ever seen? What are the
upper voltage limits to AC motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would not recommend using a IRS as 2 in and 1 out. They are not made
for that, would need to be de-rated, and would die a noisy early death.
I like lee's face to face idea. Now looking at the honda manual
transmissions with their crown and pinion, you get rid of the wastefull
and not very reversable hypoid gear set. Use a set of racing gears from
one of the after market places and make your own box between. Perhaps if
the motor shaft positions are matched precisely one encoder and one
controller can be used, or slaved togather. Do not differential the
motors, they will be at to high of an RPM you will still have diffy that
mounts inside the crown for the axles.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember working on a rock crusher down on the coast that ran on 4160V 3
phase AC. I don't remember the horsepower or KW rating but it was
physically huge. And Last Jan 1, I was called to work on a 12,000V pump
motor control to keep the town of Nicholas from flooding. I've got a
picture or two of that one if anyone wanted to see it. A bunch of mice had
sacrficed themselves to try to keep that one from running.
John
www.indele.com
58 Harley Servicar conversion in progress
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
Danny wrote:
Indeed making the controller would be quite tricky. There are a limited
number of ways to convert 3500V to say 100v with efficiency.
What's the highest voltage AC motor you have ever seen? What are the
upper voltage limits to AC motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Sep 15, 2006 at 07:29:58PM -0500, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Danny wrote:
>
> >Indeed making the controller would be quite tricky. There are a limited
> >number of ways to convert 3500V to say 100v with efficiency.
>
> What's the highest voltage AC motor you have ever seen? What are the
> upper voltage limits to AC motors?
This sounds promising.
From:
http://www.manufacturing.net/ctl/article/CA478480.html
'Real' High-Voltage Motors Are Here
Operating from input voltages up to 70 kV, recently introduced ac synchronous
motors cut power losses and realize other benefits by direct connection to an
electric utility distribution line.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reduction would still be required in the two motor back to back unless
you have 40K to spend on BLDC torque motors. I looked into this and
there just wasn't enough room for normal motors,suspension, and an IRS.
Perhaps if the suspension is tucked inside FWD rims and a stubby
planetary reduction box on each motor then accepts the CV joint, it may
work.
My dream design to handle this is a hollow shaft motor which accepts the
drive axle thru it to the differential mounted to the other side.
Imagine a 4T65E HD FWD GM tranny with windings instead of Auto tranny guts.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This would be GREAT for attaching wires to solar panels. I bought some off
ebay and there was no way to solder wires to the contact points, had to fab
a spring clip to go over it but I don't like the way it looks.
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=12&category=125
Low voltage
" This stuff conducts low voltage AC and DC circuits in a permanent bond and
is easy to use. "
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Wire Glue
Check out this odd product:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16133
Claims to be a conductive glue to use instead of solder. No idea how it
performs. One thing that came to mind is using it instead of solder for
those battery terminals which have to be spot welded, not soldered,
because they can't take the heat of the soldering iron.
Well I wouldn't bet the farm on it performing such miracles, probably its
resistance is high and its mechanical toughness low for bonding to high
current batteries. Still, surely somebody's going to want to try this
and/or think up a good use for it.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pretty nice motor..
http://search.abb.com/library/ABBLibrary.asp?DocumentID=SEEPD_3BSM008186&LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartId=&Action=Launch
How small could that motor be scaled down too(as in size and weight/EV size)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man you came to the right place. You'll no doubt get help on both fronts. I'm
in Alaska and probably can't help much for your
show. But standby...
Mike
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Robert Lemke
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:47 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Post Petroleum Car Show
>
>
> Hi.
>
> Are you the same Mike Thompson that was an accoustic engineer for ESS
> and former hang glider pilot?
>
> Bob Lemke
>
> Michael Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Electric Vehicle Proponents:
>
> I am writing to solicit your help in our efforts to educate our
> community on the potential for electric vehicles. A group I am
> associated with called APPLE (Alliance for a Post Petroleum Local
> Economy) has planned a day of events dedicated to the future of personal
> transportation. It will be held in Grass Valley, CA on November 19, 2006.
>
> The day will feature a Post Petroleum Car Show, workshops and
> presentations on the topics of electric, biofuel and fuel cell vehicles.
> We are currently looking for manufacturers of cars, cycles, scooters
> bikes, or any other mode of transportation who may want to participate
> in the car show. We are also interested in including any garage
> inventors and/or hobbyists who want to show their wares. Participation
> and attendance to the car show is free. There will be a charge for the
> workshops and evening events.
>
> I am hoping that you might be able to help us in two ways: 1) finding
> people or companies to participate in the Post Petroleum Car Show, and
> 2) helping us publicize the event.
>
> APPLE is a grassroots, non-profit organization dedicated to supporting
> social entrepreneurs in the effort to move our community toward a
> sustainable future. You may find out more about APPLE at www.apple-nc.org.
>
> Please see the press release below for details and contact information
> about the event.
>
> Best regards,
> Mike Thompson
>
>
> "Whatcha Gonna Drive?"
> ... to a sustainable world when fossil fuels are no longer an affordable
> option: Biodiesel, Electric, Fuel Cell or Hybrids?
>
> On Sunday, November 19, at the Center for the Arts on Main St. in Grass
> Valley, experts, hobbyists, and the simply curious will gather to try to
> answer these questions: What will replace fossil fuels as we move toward
> the post-petroleum era? What are the pros and cons of biofuels, fuel
> cell technology, and electric vehicles? Are hybrids the best way to go?
> What should your next car be? It seems everyone is talking about this
> lately.
> APPLE of Nevada County (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) is
> hosting a two-part event. First, the free "Post-Petroleum Car Show"
> (2:00 - 6:00 pm) will fill the parking lot directly behind The Center
> for the Arts (concurrent with demos, workshops, and films indoors). We
> expect some high-mileage cars, a variety of electric cars and bikes, and
> some more exotic inventions.
> Then, at 6:30 pm, in the main auditorium, APPLE will present "Fueling
> the Future." Two dynamic speakers, fuel cell researcher Glenn Rambach
> and Executive Director of the Biodiesel Council of California, Kimber
> Holmes, will give illustrated presentations showing why we are on the
> brink of a massive change in personal transportation and the
> technologies available to help us make the transition. The evening will
> conclude with a panel discussion to field comments and questions from
> those in attendance.
> There will also be information tables on APPLE projects and other local
> transportation-related groups, along with food, festivities, and fun!
> More details on the program and a vehicle list will be posted at
> www.apple-nc.org as the event draws closer. APPLE is inviting
> participation from car enthusiasts, alternative vehicle (or fuel)
> researchers/inventors, and especially those who have vehicles
> appropriate for the "Post-Petroleum Car Show." To find out more, call
> (530) 274-3435 or e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Indeed there are motors which run on 7200V or more, I assume three phase
AC is common.
However, I'm at a loss as to how one would build a multi-speed
controller. I've seen MOSFETs at hundreds of volts and 1200V IGBTs.
I've seen mention of IGBTs up to 6.5KV which I guess would do great, but
it's gotta be expensive for sure with surplus options "unlikely".
I wonder if the motor itself could be made to run at 3500VDC-1000VDC?
There's probably major problems trying to commutate a DC brush at that
voltage (but admittedly, what do I know?). Bet you don't want to run a
cable with 3500V and nearly limitless current capacity very far from the
storage bank though.
Kinda sounding like an AC drive would be a good idea. I mean this makes
a ton of sense because if you actually have a motor designed for
1000V-3500V, then the current is quite low. What was 100 amps @ 100V is
only 10 amps @ 1000v. Only 2.86 amps @ 3500V. So we don't need
anything like 2/0 cables anymore. You don't have to worry about
milliohms lost in contact impedance anymore. Heck, 8 ga can drive this
with only marginal losses. You know, originally I said the high
voltage IGBTs would cost a lot but now I'm realizing with the greatly
reduced currents required this might not be so expensive.
How well do AC drives work with a wide range of voltages? When the
voltage is high, I assume this means the drive will need to give a very
short "on" time during its positive and negative swings. How bad does
this affect a single or 3-phase A/C drive?
Danny
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Danny wrote:
Indeed making the controller would be quite tricky. There are a limited
number of ways to convert 3500V to say 100v with efficiency.
What's the highest voltage AC motor you have ever seen? What are the
upper voltage limits to AC motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glad to see somebody might have a use for it!
Why couldn't you solder it? Was it aluminum, or were there temp
concerns? There are lower temp solders.
Can you do 4-wire resistance testing? I'm curious how low the
resistance off that glue can be. Realistically, I don't expect it to be
anywhere near a solder joint but that may not be a significant loss for
a moderately sized solar panel.
Curious that they say "low voltage". The glue has no insulating
function so voltage is irrelevant. Perhaps they are worried about
liability associated with someone making repairs to the 110v household
current with glue (and right they should be worried!). The problem is
going to come about from pushing such a high current that the glue will
heat up and burn.
Danny
Mark McCurdy wrote:
This would be GREAT for attaching wires to solar panels. I bought some
off ebay and there was no way to solder wires to the contact points,
had to fab a spring clip to go over it but I don't like the way it looks.
http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=12&category=125
Low voltage
" This stuff conducts low voltage AC and DC circuits in a permanent
bond and is easy to use. "
----- Original Message ----- From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: Wire Glue
Check out this odd product:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16133
Claims to be a conductive glue to use instead of solder. No idea how
it performs. One thing that came to mind is using it instead of
solder for those battery terminals which have to be spot welded, not
soldered, because they can't take the heat of the soldering iron.
Well I wouldn't bet the farm on it performing such miracles, probably
its resistance is high and its mechanical toughness low for bonding
to high current batteries. Still, surely somebody's going to want to
try this and/or think up a good use for it.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Check out this odd product:
http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G16133
As it happens, I just ordered some of it last week. It's intended for
low current applications, like connecting wires to little solar cells,
LCD displays, or keypads. I haven't had a chance to use it yet; will let
you all know.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Indeed there are motors which run on 7200V or more, I assume three phase
AC is common.
However, I'm at a loss as to how one would build a multi-speed
controller.
If this Ultra Cap ever surfaces; why should it be only built in 3500V
models? Can't they build it in lower voltage models?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course the claims of being able to charge in minutes is limited by
the power available.
If you were charging at these rates, you would likely be charging from a
sister bank of ultracaps. Especially if the price was the same as quoted.
A friend of mine did something "completely different". He got a surplus
deal on a box of high voltage capacitors; something like 2uF at 1600v
each. He connected them all in series to make something like a 20,000
volt capacitor.
At first, he charged it with a complicated voltage multiplier from a
neon sign transformer. It was used for various mad scientist
"arc-n-spark" experiments.
Then, he heard of the "sky current" effect. Any large tall ungrounded
structure would pick up a charge. The effect is huge during rain or
thunderstorms, but exists even in clear weather.
He had an old TV antenna on the roof of his house that was up a good 50
feet, which was not in use, but still had its ground wire for lightning
protection. So, he cut the ground wire and connected his capacitor bank
in its place. Lo and behold, the capacitors slowly charged! The sky
current was only a few microamps, but it would (eventually) charge the
capacitors to thousands of volts!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
What's the highest voltage AC motor you have ever seen? What are the
upper voltage limits to AC motors?
Conventional motors come in sizes up to *many* thousands of volts. Of
course, they produce thousands of HP and are what you use in ships,
power plants, and other massive applications.
There are also electrostatic motors that run on thousands of volts but
tiny amounts of current. Nikola Tesla liked playing with them (of
course). They are interesting, but not particularly useful. Most of
their mass winds up being insulation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
If this Ultra Cap ever surfaces; why should it be only built in 3500V
models? Can't they build it in lower voltage models?
Apparently not. Part of the patent involves that high voltage.
Caution: Ignorance on!
However, if we could turn it to AC, couldn't we just run it through a
transformer (or whatever you call those big coils) to bring it down to
any voltage required?
Ignorance off.
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
However, I'm at a loss as to how one would build a multi-speed
controller.
You'd use vacuum tubes, of course! Tens of thousands of volts and high
switching speeds are easy; it's high current that's hard. Their on-state
voltage drop is 10's of volts, so you need a high enough operating
voltage so this is a negligible percent of the total; a tube with a 30v
drop switching a 3000v load is 99% efficient.
Microwave ovens use a vacuum tube (magnetron) delivering hundreds of
watts at 3500vdc. Ham radio operators have been using vacuum tube
kilowatt transmitters since the 1930's. A tube the size of a Coke can
can switch tens of kilowatts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's a link to an interesting story about another electric motorbike
that's become available lately...
Plenty of fury, a lot less sound
ELECTRIC BIKE LEAVES NOISE, FUMES IN DUST FOR OFF-ROADERS
By Matt Nauman
Mercury News
As Neal Saiki explains it, his career progression makes perfect sense.
He designed a human-powered helicopter in college, then worked at NASA
and then helped develop a high-altitude airplane (to be used to confirm
global warming and as a spy plane) for another employer. Next, he
became a famous mountain-bike designer, and now he's making electric
motorcycles...
Follow link below for complete story...
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/15525369.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering that. However I am fairly sure that they used that
voltage because the process could not get more capacitance by reducing
the voltage. You could always charge to a lower voltage, but for a
fixed capacitance the total energy stored is the square of the voltage.
Half the voltage, one quarter the energy.
Logically if EEStor is indeed capable of making such a cap, they are
well aware of all the issues in trying to work from a 3500V source
voltage. That's why I believe the capacitance couldn't be increased
simply by decreasing the voltage rating.
Danny
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
Indeed there are motors which run on 7200V or more, I assume three phase
AC is common.
However, I'm at a loss as to how one would build a multi-speed
controller.
If this Ultra Cap ever surfaces; why should it be only built in 3500V
models? Can't they build it in lower voltage models?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Capacitors store energy as electrical charge, unlike batteries which rely on
chemical reactions to generate current. The energy storage of capacitors is
proportional to the square of the voltage, so higher voltages result in
vastly greater energy storage. Ultracaps which go much higher than 3500
volts will allow storage of phenomenal amounts of energy. I certainly
expect to see them in my lifetime, and I'm not young.
Converting this energy into a form usable for powering an ev will require a
change in thinking. The ultracapacitors will undergo a huge voltage swing
during discharge, unlike batteries where the voltage is relatively constant.
I envision the first iteration being a device which will use the bank of
ultracapacitors as input, and output a constant voltage at a current which
will vary as needed. This will allow them to then power conventional
controllers, solar inverters, etc.
Charging will likely be done slowly at home like we currently charge
batteries. However, they would allow for a very rapid charge at the corner
"power station" when needed or while traveling. Whether batteries or
ultracaps, the power available to put back in is generally lower than what
the batteries or ultracaps can take, thus we charge much slower than we
would have to because of lack of power available. Exceptions are John
Wayland at the strip charging from the pack in the truck, or Steve Clunn
charging his mower from his electric truck, both examples of the abilities
to charge rapidly.
As voltage levels of ultracaps increase, we will have the ability to drive
an EV farther on a charge than ICEs currently go on a tank of gas. I only
hope I live long enough to drive one of these, but I'm pretty sure my
children will, and my grandchildren will think of ICEs as collector items to
be driven only in parades and at shows.
Dave Davidson
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion
Battery
Date: Fri, 15 Sep 2006 16:57:28 -0700
Danny Miller wrote:
> We've already been discussing that for awhile now. We'd all
> love to see it happen but I'm skeptical of the reality of
> these promises.
Let's not forget that completely independent of the reality of the
promises made for this product, including its cost, is the challenge of
using a 3500V power source in our sorts of applications.
The big difference between this technology and "conventional" ultracaps
seems to be that this device relies on being charged to 3500V to achieve
the energy storage numbers quoted, while conventional ultracaps are low
voltage devices that may be stacked in series parallel to achieve pretty
much any required voltage or energy storage requirement.
Even if this ultracap becomes commercially available at the sort of
costs that have been predicted, there will still be the cost associated
with a DC/DC that can accept perhaps 1000-3500V in and deliver a useful
voltage and current output. The press release states that a 17kWh pack
could be recharged in 4-6min; at the 6min rate, this means the pack can
accept charge at a rate of 170kW, and if we assume it can therefore
deliver it at a similar rate, then the DC/DC would need to be capable of
something like 560A at 300VDC output.
Note also that to charge this device requires a charger that can accept
common AC line voltage and boost it to the 3500V full charge voltage of
the cap. For their hypothetical 6min charge this 170kW charger would
need about 700A @ 240VAC to achieve this feat, and would need to be able
to deliver an output of about 48A @ 3500V or proportionately more
current into a discharged or partially charged cap; say 170A into a cap
discharged to 1000A.
Finally, note that while the device stores 52kWh in a 400lb package,
this is the *total* energy stored when fully charged to 3500V. You
cannot get all of this energy out unless you can discharge it to 0V
(while doing something useful with the energy)! Discharging it over a
more practical range of 3500-1000V the useable capacity is significantly
less.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:48 AM 9/15/2006, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
Well, I started using Google and calling around.
Best price so far is from Allied Battery, $157.49 ea.
Hmm, checked the local CostCo today. They have D34M's for $160, and
they are 30 miles (which is all nasty traffic) closer to me.
I'll probably get a CostCo membership and get them there.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob:
Nope, but there are no shortages of Mike Thompsons out there.
Another Mike Thompson
Robert Lemke wrote:
Hi.
Are you the same Mike Thompson that was an accoustic engineer for ESS and former hang glider pilot?
Bob Lemke
Michael Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Dear Electric Vehicle Proponents:
I am writing to solicit your help in our efforts to educate our
community on the potential for electric vehicles. A group I am
associated with called APPLE (Alliance for a Post Petroleum Local
Economy) has planned a day of events dedicated to the future of personal
transportation. It will be held in Grass Valley, CA on November 19, 2006.
The day will feature a Post Petroleum Car Show, workshops and
presentations on the topics of electric, biofuel and fuel cell vehicles.
We are currently looking for manufacturers of cars, cycles, scooters
bikes, or any other mode of transportation who may want to participate
in the car show. We are also interested in including any garage
inventors and/or hobbyists who want to show their wares. Participation
and attendance to the car show is free. There will be a charge for the
workshops and evening events.
I am hoping that you might be able to help us in two ways: 1) finding
people or companies to participate in the Post Petroleum Car Show, and
2) helping us publicize the event.
APPLE is a grassroots, non-profit organization dedicated to supporting
social entrepreneurs in the effort to move our community toward a
sustainable future. You may find out more about APPLE at www.apple-nc.org.
Please see the press release below for details and contact information
about the event.
Best regards,
Mike Thompson
"Whatcha Gonna Drive?"
... to a sustainable world when fossil fuels are no longer an affordable
option: Biodiesel, Electric, Fuel Cell or Hybrids?
On Sunday, November 19, at the Center for the Arts on Main St. in Grass
Valley, experts, hobbyists, and the simply curious will gather to try to
answer these questions: What will replace fossil fuels as we move toward
the post-petroleum era? What are the pros and cons of biofuels, fuel
cell technology, and electric vehicles? Are hybrids the best way to go?
What should your next car be? It seems everyone is talking about this
lately.
APPLE of Nevada County (Alliance for a Post-Petroleum Local Economy) is
hosting a two-part event. First, the free "Post-Petroleum Car Show"
(2:00 - 6:00 pm) will fill the parking lot directly behind The Center
for the Arts (concurrent with demos, workshops, and films indoors). We
expect some high-mileage cars, a variety of electric cars and bikes, and
some more exotic inventions.
Then, at 6:30 pm, in the main auditorium, APPLE will present "Fueling
the Future." Two dynamic speakers, fuel cell researcher Glenn Rambach
and Executive Director of the Biodiesel Council of California, Kimber
Holmes, will give illustrated presentations showing why we are on the
brink of a massive change in personal transportation and the
technologies available to help us make the transition. The evening will
conclude with a panel discussion to field comments and questions from
those in attendance.
There will also be information tables on APPLE projects and other local
transportation-related groups, along with food, festivities, and fun!
More details on the program and a vehicle list will be posted at
www.apple-nc.org as the event draws closer. APPLE is inviting
participation from car enthusiasts, alternative vehicle (or fuel)
researchers/inventors, and especially those who have vehicles
appropriate for the "Post-Petroleum Car Show." To find out more, call
(530) 274-3435 or e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
> Danny Miller wrote:
> > However, I'm at a loss as to how one would build a multi-speed
> > controller.
>
> You'd use vacuum tubes, of course! Tens of thousands of volts and high
> switching speeds are easy; it's high current that's hard. Their on-state
> voltage drop is 10's of volts, so you need a high enough operating
> voltage so this is a negligible percent of the total; a tube with a 30v
> drop switching a 3000v load is 99% efficient.
>
> Microwave ovens use a vacuum tube (magnetron) delivering hundreds of
> watts at 3500vdc. Ham radio operators have been using vacuum tube
> kilowatt transmitters since the 1930's. A tube the size of a Coke can
> can switch tens of kilowatts.
> -- Gees! Lee, ya forgot to mention another EV problem solved; Heating
the cabin, a delightful warm glow and heat. Best thing for snuggling up
since the Fireplace, on a cold snowy drive home!<g>!Not to mention you could
sell power to the RR when they are short!
Let it Snow.... Let it Snow........ Let it Snow.............. it DID in
OR, saw it on the 6 O'clock snews!
My two flakes worth
Bob
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> > What's the highest voltage AC motor you have ever seen? What are the
> > upper voltage limits to AC motors?
> The new Queen Mary has some HUGH AC drive motors, the Elizebeth has some
biggies, too, in the yachting dept.They said on the TV show that they were
the biggest? Well, you can't really believe EVerything ya watch.
> Conventional motors come in sizes up to *many* thousands of volts. Of
> course, they produce thousands of HP and are what you use in ships,
> power plants, and other massive applications.
>
I'm sure Plasma Boy could find one for enhanced performance in the
Zombie?
> There are also electrostatic motors that run on thousands of volts but
> tiny amounts of current. Nikola Tesla liked playing with them (of
> course). They are interesting, but not particularly useful. Most of
> their mass winds up being insulation.
> -- That was 'way before teflon and class H.Guess you would hafta have a
solid state or tube step down box, or as we call them; controllers?Seems
hard imagining a 3000 volt "Cell" rather than battery? Run the Acela out to
Or, an CA with ten of these?Beat the Pioneer Zephyr's 1934 speed record,
only 80 something average.
Batting around batteries
Bob
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She's a beauty! Should drop right in a Rabbit or Jetta<g>!Greyhound bus?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
> Pretty nice motor..
>
>
http://search.abb.com/library/ABBLibrary.asp?DocumentID=SEEPD_3BSM008186&LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartId=&Action=Launch
>
> How small could that motor be scaled down too(as in size and weight/EV
size)?
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.4/448 - Release Date: 9/14/06
>
>
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haven't been able to connect to it for several hours now :o(
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How can I become a seed for this? Do I have to run my own tracker?
I'll have the video in MP4 format on my website soon, for traditional
download.
Jude
David Ankers wrote:
Thanks guys, glad you like it.
I was seeding it 4 times myself (I'm a network engineer and have access to a
few machines at various places). I also sent the torrent to a few others and
asked them to seed before posting it here as I know what its like to get a
torrent with 1 slow seed and all peers synchronised.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri Hurik
Sent: Friday, 15 September 2006 12:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
Yeah, and I'm now one of the seeds :-)
"I was expecting both these numbers to be less than 5." Exactly what I
thought!!
Thanks for sharing the link. I luv bittorrent.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 3:02 PM
Subject: RE: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
Wow - there are currently 56 seeds (people who have already downloaded
it and are still sharing it with the world) and 19 peers (people still
downloading and sharing what they have)
I was expecting both these numbers to be less than 5.
Cool!
Mark
P.s. thanks for the link - I may be in Aus, but I don't get SBS :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Ankers
Subject: bittorrent of Dateline EV Episode
Found this on mininova:
http://www.mininova.org/tor/422839
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----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 6:17 PM
Subject: Another One!
> Hi EVerybody;
Well It AINT gunna go, I guess? Trying to bring the old 87 Sentra to
life. The Curtis wont work. Oh I get the ZAP when ya hook things up,
charging the caps, but it just lies there,like a dead thing. Potbox is good.
Howthehell DO you get them apart to look for any obvious damage? Or better
yet WHO fixes the @#$%^ things?I don't think it is destroyed? But it DID sit
around in less than ideal, wet, damp, conditions. I shoulda taken it OUT of
the car 3 years ago, wiped it off and put it up in my nice dry book case, or
something. I am guessing that moisture can kill them? It isn't like it is a
smoking ruin, it LOOKS great.
Other controller stuff: Where do you get those nice Coil/ Solenoid
looking inductive "Potboxes" That often go with DCP Rapters? Or can I use a
Curtis Potbox with a Rapter? I had the little solenoid setup in the Rabbit,
but dodn't salvage it. I busted it trying to pull it that dark rainy nite on
the hiway.It looked like a redily avalible industrial item?Put a Rapter in
the Sentra?Use the Potbox that came with the car/cursit?
Ideas?
Bob, STILL EV less!!!
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Dave Davidson wrote:
Capacitors store energy as electrical charge, unlike batteries which
rely on chemical reactions to generate current. The energy storage of
capacitors is proportional to the square of the voltage, so higher
voltages result in vastly greater energy storage. Ultracaps which go
much higher than 3500 volts will allow storage of phenomenal amounts
of energy. I certainly expect to see them in my lifetime, and I'm not
young.
Converting this energy into a form usable for powering an ev will
require a change in thinking. The ultracapacitors will undergo a huge
voltage swing during discharge, unlike batteries where the voltage is
relatively constant. I envision the first iteration being a device
which will use the bank of ultracapacitors as input, and output a
constant voltage at a current which will vary as needed. This will
allow them to then power conventional controllers, solar inverters, etc.
...
I certainly like your sentiment there! Icky chemical bats hopefully
*will* be a thing of the past one day soon. It's interesting to think of
them as a voltage potential, rather then a current source. Aren't
batteries actually a form of chemical-based 'generators', not an
electricity storage medium?
So, if a standard PWM motor controller is basically just a variable
DC/DC converter (someone correct me if I'm wrong) - why run a DC/DC into
a DC/DC? Why not just PWM the voltage potential available? Is this a
matter of uber capacitors on the output and running around a 1% on time
when the caps are fully charged?
What are the current (no pun intended) hurdles to making a 150V - 3000V
input, 0 - 120V output PWM speed controller? I'm sure there are plenty,
I'm just curious how far we are from this (potentially) pure EV system.
Electricity in, electricity stored, electricity sent to motor in a
orderly fashion. Kind of makes the armchair engineer in you all warm and
fuzzy.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
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ALL BitTorrent client tools will seed with your downloaded files as long
as you leave the file in the directory you originally downloaded it to.
Seeding is a fundamental part of every BT client. In fact the tracker
will slow down your downloads if you don't keep stuff in your in/out
directory that other people want to download.
In fact your client will start uploading blocks of the file you are
downloading as soon as you complete them, even though you do not have a
complete copy yet.
Danny
Jude Anthony wrote:
How can I become a seed for this? Do I have to run my own tracker?
I'll have the video in MP4 format on my website soon, for traditional
download.
Jude
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I bet that there are ways to convert the power to and from
that high voltage without breaking the bank.
Example: a 1200V 75A (150A repetitive peak) rectifier costs $5
The IGBT for 1200A 40A costs $17 (1000 piece pricing) and
there are many ways that 3 stacked (series) bi-directional DC/DC
modules can handle the EEstor 3500V down to 1000V or so and
deliver a respectable amount of power to/from a 300V rail or
even a 500V rail.
That would make the controller real simple - it already exists
and is produced in many 100,000 units in for example the Prius.
No better way for innovation than take something new and find
a way to make it work with everything that already exists, so
you can concentrate on the new part only. In this case a truly
remarkable technology, the patent that was distributed a week
ago showed the simplicity of how they went from a standard
ultracapacitor that can't beat batteries to the Hypercapacitor
by only modifying one parameter to allow higher field strength
in the dielectricum of their capacitor.
Can't wait to see them scale up to volume production.
Of course there will be issues and setbacks, there always are.
But this technology has the potential to revolutionize the
whole energy storage market. Exciting to see this happen!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 4:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion
Battery
Danny Miller wrote:
> We've already been discussing that for awhile now. We'd all
> love to see it happen but I'm skeptical of the reality of
> these promises.
Let's not forget that completely independent of the reality of the
promises made for this product, including its cost, is the challenge of
using a 3500V power source in our sorts of applications.
The big difference between this technology and "conventional" ultracaps
seems to be that this device relies on being charged to 3500V to achieve
the energy storage numbers quoted, while conventional ultracaps are low
voltage devices that may be stacked in series parallel to achieve pretty
much any required voltage or energy storage requirement.
Even if this ultracap becomes commercially available at the sort of
costs that have been predicted, there will still be the cost associated
with a DC/DC that can accept perhaps 1000-3500V in and deliver a useful
voltage and current output. The press release states that a 17kWh pack
could be recharged in 4-6min; at the 6min rate, this means the pack can
accept charge at a rate of 170kW, and if we assume it can therefore
deliver it at a similar rate, then the DC/DC would need to be capable of
something like 560A at 300VDC output.
Note also that to charge this device requires a charger that can accept
common AC line voltage and boost it to the 3500V full charge voltage of
the cap. For their hypothetical 6min charge this 170kW charger would
need about 700A @ 240VAC to achieve this feat, and would need to be able
to deliver an output of about 48A @ 3500V or proportionately more
current into a discharged or partially charged cap; say 170A into a cap
discharged to 1000A.
Finally, note that while the device stores 52kWh in a 400lb package,
this is the *total* energy stored when fully charged to 3500V. You
cannot get all of this energy out unless you can discharge it to 0V
(while doing something useful with the energy)! Discharging it over a
more practical range of 3500-1000V the useable capacity is significantly
less.
Cheers,
Roger.
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