EV Digest 5892
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) powertrain as a structural component?
by ZillaVIlla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: capacitor to antenna
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: Help with Raptor 600 - trying to fix for Renewable Energy show
this weekend
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Calif. sues carmakers over global warming
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Pole
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Strange EV on Ebay
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery Balancing (was: Etiquette Question)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
by J Z <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Power to Manual Steering Conversion
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Calif. sues carmakers over global warming
by ZillaVIlla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Strange EV on Ebay
by "Dr. Polsinelli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: powertrain as a structural component?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Connectors - Power Wheels type
by ZillaVIlla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) 3.4 to 1 ratio. 70 inch circumference tire
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Calif. sues carmakers over global warming
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: powertrain as a structural component?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Strange EV on Ebay
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Strange EV on Ebay
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Strange EV on Ebay
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EVLN(The quirky design of Lambeth's EV ensures the environmental message)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 3.4 to 1 ratio. 70 inch circumference tire
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) EVLN(Two new Baroni electric motorbikes)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EVLN(LTC's lithium-ion battery systems)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've long been kicking around an idea of making frame rails into batteries
to save weight in an EV. (like killing two birds with one stone) and I was
wondering if anyone here knew of any examples of the powertrain being used
as a structural component?
Like a battery as a frame member type of thing? or composite body panels
that generate a current like a battery? I don't know how powerful of a
battery could be made in this manner but the potential weight savings might
make it workable.
anyone ever heard of such a beast?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OT I'm named after Ben Franklin,
but don't have a capacitor that will not leak, so no frying myself this
year.
Interesting concept though.
OT: maybe that's how Star Trek gets their power
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Robison wrote:
> I've posted his original full-resolution images here:
>
> http://ohmbre.org/temp_upload
Excellent; thanks!
The trace in the first photo is the one I recall as carrying the pack voltage
to the precharge circuitry end of the PCB. This would be the one I would try
fixing first.
The contact at the end of the capacitor (C15?) in the second photo should
probably be cleaned up, and the long trace along the edge of the PCB might well
benfit from repair also.
It is difficult to see if the traces are damaged or just lifting off the PCB,
or if it is the confromal coating that is damaged.
> I don't know if it's helpful, but we did end up repairing the
> wires to the Raptor's remote display, and as we figured, the
> red light was the broken wire. So, the moment you turn the
> key, you hear the fan spin up, and all three LEDs on the
> display light up solid red, green and yellow.
Have you read the manual? It says:
"If all of the LEDs on the remote illuminate at once, the controller has
detected a hazardous fault condition and shut down. Either the unit is
miswired, and the capacitor precharge circuit is not able to precharge the
internal filter caps, or an overtemperature condition exists within the
controller. The fan will run in this state, so wait ½ a minute, then turn the
power off and back on. If this occurs during a new installation, check the high
power wiring."
It seems most likely that there is a problem with the precharge wiring,
however, given that you have evidence of corrosion on the PCB, you might also
want to check/clean the connector pins that attach the logic PCB to the power
stage. These may be faulty and could result in the micro thinking there is a
overtemperature condition (the temp sensor is on the power stage) when there
really isn't one.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Payback!!
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060920/bs_nm/environment_autos_dc_13
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Magnets have a south pole and a north pole. Motors use magnetic fields and
thus have north and south poles. Physically, inside the motor, the field has a
metal (iron or steel) piece inside the field coil. This is called the pole
piece. The motors dealt with here usually have 4 poles, 2 north and 2 south.
You may also see 2 pole, 6 pole or 8 pole motors. Some large motors can have
32 or more poles.
Jeff
EV2 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What exactly is a "Pole" in a series or compound wound motor?
I am clear on "Fields", "Armatures" and "Brushes and Brush Rings", but not
"Poles".
John.
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
Might I suggest that a number of us start asking pertenant questions
regarding this sale from the seller? We can do that without bidding
and we are the ones with the knoledge to ask the smart questions!
Perhaps even asking to see the vehicle and maby handing it over to
someone else on our list who is near it to check it out... the
answers to questions are posted on the add so everyone gets to see
them.
I think it is very important to fleece out EV scammers to keep bad
press away from EV's! We are the ones to do that! There has been too
much bad press concerning EV's in the past... certainly more than is
reasonable or should be expected!
Thanks
Tom
---------snip---------
When I first saw them (there are two for sale by seller), he had a
10k
buy it now. That seemed low even for a converted smart.
~Michael
Don Cameron wrote:
> It could have been imported as an ICE then converted to electric.
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: September 20, 2006 6:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Strange EV on Ebay
>
> The Smart dealer that I spoke with indicated that no electric
versions have
> been sold in the US only in Europe. So how does the seller on ebay
explain
> how they got it imported and licensed?
> > > > Mike Bachand
> Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
> 1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It really does come down to the cell level.
That's why I bit the bullet and put 252 nicad cells in my truck. One
goes bad and I don't have to toss 6 of them, just one. Plus, if I was
nuts enough, each cell could be managed individually. I think every
dozen is good enough.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "David Roden (Akron OH USA)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On 20 Sep 2006 at 10:01, Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > The fundamental balancing problem is that real batteries do not
all have the
> > same amphour capacity or charge/discharge efficiency.
>
> Indeed, not all CELLS have the same capacity or efficiency!
Balancing a
> pack at the module (battery) level is better than nothing, but
you'll always
> need some equalization to balance the individual cells within each
module.
>
> Despite this, in real world use, balancing devices have indeed
demonstrated
> some utility. I think the reason is that most conversion EVs don't
maintain a
> consistent temperature for all the modules - often they're scattered
under the
> hood, under the back seat, in the trunk, etc. If the battery were
one big tray
> under the car with good thermal management, I suspect that module-level
> balancing would be less significant, at least for lead batteries.
>
> But then I'm not an engineer ...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well...Since everyone is "countering mis-information" I guess I can chime in.
Rich Rich Rich...you know you weren't the "Build Crew Leader" for that
episode of Monster Garage, so why even go there. That title would have to
belong to Mr. Shawn Lawless and his "we can do it" attitude!! If you had your
way we would have quit and throw in the towel a few...no...many times during
the build. However, I do have to say, we would NOT have been successfull
without every member of the team, including you!! Awesome job with the
wiring!!!...and distracting Jesse and the crew with their "diversions"!!
As for the car, I'm pretty sure it's retired and will never race again.
Right now it's in South Carolina and the new Marketing department doesn't quite
know how to use it. But, I'm still trying. I don't really know who would win
the race between GP and MG...the "flash-bulbs" might blow in the MG..right Rich?
I'm still waiting to see the "not in my lifetime" full electric vehicles at
my local dealership...but they seem to not have a clue what I am talking
about...maybe I should drop your name and see if that helps? ;-)
Well back to tool and battery design.
Jon
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So yea Rod .. Go would Kick the Monster Garage's Chevy pretty good.
I hope you get as much satisfaction from that as I do.
Bring it on Jesse!!!
Madman
Oh by the way.. the Mg car is owned by Milwaukee Tools.
Hey Zick.... Bring your "Not in our life time" Lithium power Seld up here...
we have a willing compeditor...
Both are large heavy and over powered.
I think the Mg car could do low 13s, with some real tires under it and ...a
pair of 600 amp breakers.....
Same weak link..... Feel batter Rod???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
> Now for some real facts. "Monster Garage" and "Sucking Amps" were both
> Discovery Channel programs. "Sucking Amps" was a pilot for a possible
series
> which was produced by Craig Piligian of Pilgrim Films and Television. This
> is the production company that does "American Chopper" and Boyd
Coddington's
> "American Hot Rod".
>
> Rich stated: "I think Rod had a 98mph But I think MG had a better ET with
a
> 14.53 at 93.33 mph"
>
> To find the true ET for "Gone Postal" one only has to own a computer and
go
> to www.nedra.com to find that GP turned a 14.007
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> PS: Countering mis-information takes up way too much of my valuable time.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman"
> To:
> Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 9:51 PM
> Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
>
>
> > Umm Hello Tom
> >
> > First GP was buildt for the Discovery channel... NOT Monster Garage. One
> > was
> > two yeard before the other.
> >
> > Monster Garage Episode #83 I think was done in December '05, I was the
> > Build
> > crew leader.
> > We buildt a 62 Chevy Bell Air.. with 2 two motors from Shawn Lawless's
> > dragster.
> > And We have better top speeds With Gp than with the Mg Car.
> >
> > I think Rod had a 98mph But I think MG had a better ET with a 14.53 at
> > 93.33
> > mph.
> >
> > So a VERY good argument would be the Gone Postal and the Monster Garage
> > Car
> > shoot out.
> >
> > Lots of Old lead VS spaning new Lion.
> >
> > I would root for Gp.. it has more of my blood in it. And I know how to
> > make
> > it Faster.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Tom Shay"
> > To:
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2006 6:13 PM
> > Subject: Re: My thoughts on Gone Postal and the quest for data
> >
> >
> >> While others are sharing their thoughts about Gone Postal, I'll share
> >> some
> >> of mine.
> >>
> >> The idea behind creating Gone Postal was to create a farce for the
> >> Monster
> >> Garage TV show. Converting an old mail truck into a drag racer was a
> >> totally
> >> absurd idea and impossible. I think I can safely say impossible
because
> > if
> >> the team who built it couldn't make Gone Postal into a drag racer, then
> >> nobody could. I was surprised, impressed and pleased that GP ran as
well
> >> as it did.
> >>
> >> So, what's to become of GP? My guess is that its racing days are
over.
> >> Maybe now is a good time to share ideas for GP, the retired race truck.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/433 - Release Date:
8/30/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/434 - Release Date: 8/30/2006
>
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is something I am considering also. I found this a while back:
http://www.mysimon.com/Auto-Parts-and-Accessories/9000-10940_8-0.html?sdcq=dnatrs-car_steering_wholesale/dflltrail-Car%20Steering%20Wholesale&pagenum=2
A real manual steering box is easier than a rigged power steering box that has
no power! Relatively cheap too.
-Ralph
On Mon, 18 Sep 2006 23:08:07 +0000
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek) wrote:
> And Rich -
>
> If you didn't tear out the power steering yet, consider coupling the pump
> directly to a PM DC motor that runs off the pack. If you size things right,
> it will use a couple amps straight ahead and maybe 6 amps turning (at a pack
> voltage of 144 volts). And you can shut it off when you want. You don't have
> to run the pump fast.
>
> Thing is, power steering, and nice accelerator peddle action defines your
> everyday experience in the vehicle. If you want to rough it, just turn off
> the switch and experience manual steering.
>
> It will be like Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde.
>
> Dana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Markus Wachsmuth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Hi Rich,
> >
> > Steering or gears? If steering, why would you want to swap for manual?
> > Just add an electric motor that handles it.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Markus
> >
> > Rich Long wrote:
> > > I'm working on a '94 S10 that came with power steering. I was told at
> > > the auto parts store that '94 S10's came standard with power steering
> > > and that they didn't carry any replacement manual gears. Does anyone
> > > know of any other make and model that would swap easily.
> > >
> > > Rich
> > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it sounded crazy to me until I read the article, it seems that the
automakers have been using litigation to keep from meeting stricter
emmisions guidelines that the state had already passed. So it's sort of
like California is just suing back.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After responding to one question, the seller has stopped responding to
my questions.
~Michael
Tom Watson wrote:
Hi all
Might I suggest that a number of us start asking pertenant questions
regarding this sale from the seller? We can do that without bidding
and we are the ones with the knoledge to ask the smart questions!
Perhaps even asking to see the vehicle and maby handing it over to
someone else on our list who is near it to check it out... the
answers to questions are posted on the add so everyone gets to see
them.
I think it is very important to fleece out EV scammers to keep bad
press away from EV's! We are the ones to do that! There has been too
much bad press concerning EV's in the past... certainly more than is
reasonable or should be expected!
Thanks
Tom
---------snip---------
When I first saw them (there are two for sale by seller), he had a
10k
buy it now. That seemed low even for a converted smart.
~Michael
Don Cameron wrote:
It could have been imported as an ICE then converted to electric.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 20, 2006 6:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Strange EV on Ebay
The Smart dealer that I spoke with indicated that no electric
versions have
been sold in the US only in Europe. So how does the seller on ebay
explain
how they got it imported and licensed?
> > > Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are plenty of examples of motorcycles that don't have a frame
around the underside of the engine -- the engine itself is a structural
component.
ZillaVIlla wrote:
I've long been kicking around an idea of making frame rails into
batteries
to save weight in an EV. (like killing two birds with one stone) and I
was
wondering if anyone here knew of any examples of the powertrain being
used
as a structural component?
Like a battery as a frame member type of thing? or composite body panels
that generate a current like a battery? I don't know how powerful of a
battery could be made in this manner but the potential weight savings
might
make it workable.
anyone ever heard of such a beast?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
check for a powerwheels service center near you on their website, they
might have them for cheap.
On 9/20/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Did anyone on the list find a source to buy these Power Wheels
> type connectors? I need a total of 18 to finish my project.
I believe these are (similar to) Anderson PowerPole connectors:
<http://www.andersonpower.com/products/pp/pp.html>
In particular, the PP15 (15A version).
You can buy them direct from Anderson for $7.10/10 housings, e.g.:
<http://store.andersonpower.com/detail.aspx?ID=28> (black)
<http://store.andersonpower.com/detail.aspx?ID=27> (red)
Of course you would need 36 of each colour to assemble 18 2-pole
connectors.
They are also available here, though for a bit higher price:
<http://www.mfjenterprises.com/products.php?catid=159>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tire is 22 inchs tall. Ratio is 3.4 to 1 Looks like 60 mph should be 3000
rpm on the motor. 905 wheel spins per mile x 3.4 should give the motor rpm.
Did I do this right. I could get a smaller back tire Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you saw "the movie", it appeared that the car companies were able to bully
California into weakening the zero-emission rule. Now it appears that they have
to pay the price. Awesome.
I contacted Ford locally to see if they would sell me a Ranger without an
engine (the local plant makes the Ranger, and is being closed next year- a huge
loss for Minnesota). Naturally I had to explain myself. They really just are
not interested- they make a lot more money on internal combustion. Ford is
really hurting right now and there are a lot of people wanting EVs- despite the
recent manipulated fall in gas prices. But they still won't offer what people
want...
-Ralph
On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 16:41:06 -0400
ZillaVIlla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> it sounded crazy to me until I read the article, it seems that the
> automakers have been using litigation to keep from meeting stricter
> emmisions guidelines that the state had already passed. So it's sort of
> like California is just suing back.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lithium-polymer batteries can be molded into pretty much any shape you
need. However there are a lot of other concerns besides shape when you
use lithium, cooling, protection, balancing etc. So in the end it may
not be practical to spread the batteries out into bodypanels and frame
members.
On 9/20/06, ZillaVIlla <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've long been kicking around an idea of making frame rails into batteries
to save weight in an EV. (like killing two birds with one stone) and I was
wondering if anyone here knew of any examples of the powertrain being used
as a structural component?
Like a battery as a frame member type of thing? or composite body panels
that generate a current like a battery? I don't know how powerful of a
battery could be made in this manner but the potential weight savings might
make it workable.
anyone ever heard of such a beast?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sent a request to the buyer asking where the car is located and if I
could see it up close and test drive it.
Ebay had a notice that he was in another country and may speak a foriegn
language.
Bill
Dr. Polsinelli wrote:
After responding to one question, the seller has stopped responding to
my questions.
~Michael
Tom Watson wrote:
Hi all
Might I suggest that a number of us start asking pertenant questions
regarding this sale from the seller? We can do that without bidding
and we are the ones with the knoledge to ask the smart questions!
Perhaps even asking to see the vehicle and maby handing it over to
someone else on our list who is near it to check it out... the
answers to questions are posted on the add so everyone gets to see
them.
I think it is very important to fleece out EV scammers to keep bad
press away from EV's! We are the ones to do that! There has been too
much bad press concerning EV's in the past... certainly more than is
reasonable or should be expected!
Thanks
Tom
---------snip---------
When I first saw them (there are two for sale by seller), he had a
10k buy it now. That seemed low even for a converted smart.
~Michael
Don Cameron wrote:
It could have been imported as an ICE then converted to electric.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: September 20, 2006 6:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Strange EV on Ebay
The Smart dealer that I spoke with indicated that no electric
versions have
been sold in the US only in Europe. So how does the seller on ebay
explain
how they got it imported and licensed?
> > > Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Under a different handle I send the seller a message:
-
On item
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270030658247&sspagename=ADME%3AL%3ARTQ%3AUS%3A1
the electric car, there are some imporant details
not listed on the ad:
What type of maintenance-free batteries is it using?
How old are these batteries?
How much mileage are on the batteries?
Does the vehicle still drive?
74 miles range on a full charge at what speed?
What is the correct vin# ?
What state or country is the vehcile currently registered for?
-
Lets see if I get a reply.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the question I sent:
Hello,
I have an interest for ten of these cars based upon the specs given in
your web site.
1. Do you have any pictures of the car in North America?
2. Are you importing this?
3. Who is doing the conversion for you?
4. What type of batteries are you using?
5. What charger are you using?
6. Is this a BEV or an NEV.
Thanks,
Noel
See if I get a response.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Watson
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2006 1:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Strange EV on Ebay
Hi all
Might I suggest that a number of us start asking pertenant questions
regarding this sale from the seller? We can do that without bidding and
we are the ones with the knoledge to ask the smart questions!
Perhaps even asking to see the vehicle and maby handing it over to
someone else on our list who is near it to check it out... the answers
to questions are posted on the add so everyone gets to see them.
I think it is very important to fleece out EV scammers to keep bad press
away from EV's! We are the ones to do that! There has been too much bad
press concerning EV's in the past... certainly more than is reasonable
or should be expected!
Thanks
Tom
---------snip---------
When I first saw them (there are two for sale by seller), he had a 10k
buy it now. That seemed low even for a converted smart.
~Michael
Don Cameron wrote:
> It could have been imported as an ICE then converted to electric.
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: September 20, 2006 6:51 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Strange EV on Ebay
>
> The Smart dealer that I spoke with indicated that no electric
versions have
> been sold in the US only in Europe. So how does the seller on ebay
explain
> how they got it imported and licensed?
> > > > Mike Bachand
> Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
> 1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C8960/
[image http://www.mobilemag.com/content/images/8960_large.jpg ]
Exploding laptop batteries have been in the news lately, and that
has many people wondering whether lithium-ion batteries that
power automobiles are vulnerable to such explosions.
A lithium-ion battery is certainly attractive to proponents of
alternatives to petroleum. But as the laptop incidents have
proven, the structure of such batteries places both fuel and
oxidizer in the same place, and once those two things overheat
and ignite, they can create a "thermal runaway": a fire that
tends to burn more brightly and brilliantly than petroleum-based
flame.
The recently announced Tesla electric vehicle gets its power from
nearly 7,000 batteries. The vehicle's engineers insist that they
have gone to great lengths to include temperature controls,
including an electronically-controlled liquid cooling system and
a built-in shut-off system if a battery suddenly registers a
spike in temperature.
A car that crashes runs the risk of exploding, of course, no
matter what kind of power fuels it. We've all seen plenty of
petroleum-powered cars that explode into flames when the gas tank
catches fire. In some ways, gas-powered cars are no more safe
than electric-powered ones.
The Tesla engineers insist that their individuated battery
placement makes their vehicle actually safer than a
petroleum-powered car because each battery is encased in its own
protective gel and that failure or overheating of one battery
won't affect the others. It is perhaps that kind of engineering
that has resulted in the extreme cost of the vehicle
(US$100,000). Other automakers in future years will certainly
want to cut costs, and such cost-cutting might take the form of
shortcuts in security. Such shortcuts can be found today in
petroleum-powered cars.
The problem with lithium-ion batteries is that they are something
not entirely understood. Scientists still don't understand
totally why these batteries undergo a spike in temperature, and
either smoke or catch fire... but such explosions are relatively
rare. Of the millions of batteries that now power mobile phones,
laptops, and vehicles, only a few hundred have caught fire. The
concerns being voiced these days are from observers who put
safety first and who want to make sure that future engineering
takes current concerns into consideration.
===
http://www.technologyreview.com/read_article.aspx?id=17250&ch=biztech
Are Lithium-Ion Electric Cars Safe? By Kevin Bullis
The use of a type of battery with a history of overheating raises
safety concerns.
Laptops equipped with lithium-ion batteries occasionally overheat
and catch fire. This has some people concerned about the use of
this type of battery in new electric sports cars and kits for
converting conventional cars and hybrid vehicles into
all-electric cars.
It's an exciting time for electric vehicles -- with regular
announcements of increasing storage capacities for battery
materials (see "Battery Breakthrough") and exotic, high-priced
vehicles slated to come onto the market, such as the recently
announced sports car from Tesla Motors of San Carlos, CA. But
electric vehicles have failed in the past. If they're going to
succeed this time around, they'll need to win over the general
consumer, and that will mean, among other things, demonstrating
that the powerful battery packs are safe.
Lithium-ion batteries have long been favored for powering laptops
and cell phones because they're small and light. But packing so
much energy into a small space is also dangerous. The batteries
have been known to burst into flames, sometime violently; and
because both the fuel and the oxidizer are bundled into the
battery, they can't be smothered like common fires, says Dan
Doughty, who manages lithium-ion battery testing at Sandia
National Laboratories in Albuquerque, NM.
The key safety challenges are preventing overcharging,
overheating, and damage in an accident. In each case, chemical
reactions can get out of control, causing "thermal runaway,"
which can generate temperatures hot enough to melt aluminum and
cause batteries to explode, he says.
According to the U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission, from
2003 to 2005 more than 300 incidents occurred involving
lithium-ion laptop and cell-phone batteries overheating or
catching fire. Many of the incidents involved personal injury.
This potential problem with lithium-ion batteries is multiplied
by the thousands in vehicles. In the case of Tesla Motors' car,
for example, almost 7,000 batteries are packed behind the
passenger compartment to power the car (to an impressive 60 mph
in about four seconds).
But the company has done a lot to keep its battery-powered system
safe -- much more than is done in laptops, says CEO Martin
Eberhard.
To keep temperatures under control, Tesla's engineers have
developed an electronically controlled liquid cooling system.
They have also included overcharging protection, three layers of
fuses, and sensors that will trigger the batteries to disconnect
in the case of high-temperatures, a sudden impact, or a
roll-over. In fact, the decision to use many small batteries
rather than a few very large ones was in part a safety
consideration -- each battery and its relatively small amount of
stored energy compared with the entire system is isolated and
protected within its own steel case. And the entire system is
also encased for protection in the case of an accident.
Mark Verbrugge, a battery expert at GM's research and development
center in Warren, MI, says that such safety measures should be
enough to keep batteries safe. Yet one factor remains outside the
direct control of automakers. "The one thing that really worries
OEMs is you can't control poor-quality manufacturing as it
relates to safety," he says. For example, says Verbrugge, if "two
electrodes touch because it's poorly manufactured, you've got a
problem."
Such an internal short circuit can start an uncontrolled chemical
reaction, Sandia's Doughty says, adding that "if there's a flaw
in the manufacturing, and it has an internal short circuit,
there's nothing you're going to do externally to interrupt that
reaction." Such problems are rare, occurring in one of ten
million cells in laptops and other electronics, Doughty says.
But, he says, "If there are 7,000 cells, and there's one in ten
million failures, you do the math in terms of how many vehicles
are going to have a cell problem."
Even if a bad battery does make it into a vehicle, however, it
might not be a big problem. "We've designed it so that if you
reach into our battery pack and deliberately set one of the
batteries on fire, it doesn't propagate to the neighboring
cells," says Eberhard. He gives two reasons: each battery comes
in a steel case and a liquid cooling system can carry away the
excess heat.
Yet Doughty says that during tests he's seen violent explosions
of the type that could potentially rupture a steel case. If the
liquid cooling also fails, a single battery could cause
neighboring batteries to overheat, setting off a cascade of small
explosions. Doughty says electric car companies may be able to
engineer systems that are "acceptably safe," but he notes that,
although "engineers always have multiple layers of safety, the
worst accidents happen when, because of a very rare event, two or
more of these multiple layers are compromised."
Even if such an accident is rare, there could still be a backlash
against electric vehicles. In particular, Doughty is concerned
about conversion kits for turning conventional vehicles or
hybrids in lithium-ion-based electric cars (see "Plug-In Hybrids
Are on the Way"). "The thing I worry about is that one of these
days there's going to be a lithium-ion-powered vehicle that's
going to have a pretty spectacular accident -- and then what are
people going to say?"
Experts have two key recommendations for moving forward and
producing even safer electric vehicles. First, automakers need to
have a very strict screening process for their battery
manufacturers, Verbrugge says. And, in the long run, Doughty
says, it will be important to support research into new
high-energy lithium-ion battery chemistries that are not prone to
overheating.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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EVLN(The quirky design of Lambeth's EV ensures the environmental
message)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.24dash.com/content/news/viewNews.php?navID=58&newsID=8905
Electric car for Lambeth's sustainable transport drive
Back to Environment Publisher: Ian Morgan
Electric car for Lambeth
Lambeth Council has got a new electric car as part of its drive
to promote the sustainable transport message in the borough.
The car, which is being funded by Transport for London, arrived
in late July and will be used as a pool car by staff at Blue Star
House in Brixton.
Lambeth is one of only three boroughs in London to get an
electric car this year.
The car has a quirky design that will make sure it gets across
the environmental message as it drives around the borough.
Because the car will be highly visible and covered with
sustainability information, the idea is that the benefits can be
promoted as it drives around the borough.
It is also hoped that council workers who are visit businesses
and residents using the car will be able to promote the use of
electric cars, getting across the message that as well as being
environmentally friendly they also save you money as they are not
eligible for the Congestion Charge.
The council already encourages its staff to walk, cycle or use
public transport to get to work, or for travelling around the
borough.
There are, however, times when staff need to use a car and the
electric car will give them the chance to do so in a way that
does less damage to the environment at the same time as promoting
the sustainable transport message.
Councillor Nigel Haselden, Deputy Cabinet Member for transport,
said: "It is important that we take a lead in promoting the
sustainability message in the borough, which is why it is great
news that we have secured this electric car.
"The fact that it will make us a more environmentally friendly is
good news in itself. But perhaps even more important is that it
will give us a good chance to persuade businesses and residents
in the borough of the benefits of things like electric cars. Not
only are they good for the planet but because they are not
eligible for the Congestion Charge they can also save you money.
"There is a lot of good work that the council is doing in this
area, such as using special grass in our parks that is good at
retaining water, and putting plants on roofs to improve the air
quality. Getting this electric car is another important measure
in helping to protect the borough for future generations."
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- Begin Message ---
I worked it out separately,and got the same numbers
3116 RPM for 22" diameter wheel, 3077 RPM for 70" circumference
60 * 5280 * 12 / 60 / (22 * 3.14159) * 3.4 = 3116 RPM
MPH Feet IN Minutes Dia Pi Ratio
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Tire is 22 inchs tall. Ratio is 3.4 to 1 Looks like 60 mph should be 3000
rpm on the motor. 905 wheel spins per mile x 3.4 should give the motor rpm.
Did I do this right. I could get a smaller back tire Lawrence Rhodes....
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EVLN(Two new Baroni electric motorbikes)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/20060806/baroni-electric-motorbike/
[image
http://www.coolest-gadgets.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/buscardbike.jpg
]
Baroni have released 2 new electric motorbikes, the EFV150 and
EFV200. Both bikes can be recharged from a normal mains power
outlet and offer speeds up to 40mph.
The acceleration of the EFV200 is relatively quick (for an
electric vehicle) going from 0-30 in ~5 seconds. The fact that
they need no fuel and just a recharge makes them eco friendly and
very cheap to run (though youll obviously still need
insurance).
For zipping to work and back these are a very environmentally
friendly solution to the problem of pollution. They are available
now with prices starting at £1345 from Baroni Bikes.
[...]
Copyright 2006 Sagecroft Technologies
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
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EVLN(LTC's lithium-ion battery systems)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.reliableplant.com/article.asp?pagetitle=LTC+pushing+envelope+on+lithium%2Dion+battery+technology&articleid=2333
LTC pushing envelope on lithium-ion battery technology
Author: RP news wires
Lithium Technology Corporation (LTC), a global provider of large,
rechargeable lithium-ion power solutions, announced the
development of two of the largest, highest-capacity lithium-ion
battery systems in the world for non-nuclear submarines and
electric vehicles.
Marine application
In a joint venture with ThyssenKrupp, LTC's subsidiary GAIA
Akkumulatorrenwerke (GAIA) is in development of a battery system
for the ThyssenKrupp's non-nuclear submarine. This battery system
will enable propulsion four times longer and safer than lead-acid
powered vessels.
Conventional submarines contain lead acid batteries which emit
hydrogen-oxygen gases that can cause explosion during operation.
The lithium-ion battery is hermetically sealed, making it safer
transport for the passengers aboard. While it will be the largest
lithium-ion battery solution in the world, the system utilizes
less than one-third of the space the standard lead acid battery
consumed, allowing more vessel space for other applications. LTC
estimates a delivery date of the first quarter of 2008.
"With the necessity to provide more efficient energy solutions,
demand is rapidly increasing and LTC's lithium-ion battery
systems are the 'key' ... but this is just the beginning," said
Dr. Klaus Brandt, executive vice president of LTC and managing
director GAIA. "We will continue our commitment to develop
advanced solutions that present an effective means for nurturing
the future of the energy industry."
Automotive application
LTC currently offers a battery system that powers an hybrid
electric vehicle up to 50 miles per gallon. The company is
constantly developing new innovations enabling their technology
to break into the next frontier.
A leading contender in the hybrid electric vehicle (HEV) race,
LTC is working in conjunction with an automotive manufacturer to
develop a high-power battery management system designed to run a
four-passenger HEV capable of 60 MPG, with a range of 60 MPC in
electrical mode with zero emissions. This will be the furthest
distance traveled by standard production line vehicle.
"The HEV battery will produce 12 kWh, which is about 100 percent
more than what is on the market today for a comparable size
battery," said Brandt
©2006 Noria Corporation
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