EV Digest 5907
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EVDL mission (was : New GM electric car)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Cushman on Ebay
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Dateline EV Episode direct download
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Transaxle
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Transaxle
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Charging AGMs for Max life
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) E-bike at Stanford
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charging AGMs for Max life
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Balancing
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) OT: New GM electric car
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: Charging AGMs for Max life
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: OT Re: New GM electric car
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder of a few points relative to the EVDL's mission. The
following quotations are lifted right from the list charter, which you may
read in its entirety at http://www.evdl.org/help/ :
Excerpt #1 : "The EV Electric Vehicle Discussion Mailing List is intended to
provide a forum to discuss the current state of the art and future direction
of electric vehicles. It is not intended to discuss either EV
appropriateness or comparisons with other transportation primary drive modes
such as the
venerable internal combustion engine."
Commentary : The purpose of this list is NOT to debate whether EVs are
appropriate technology. There's nothing wrong with discussing the
limitations of EVs and how to overcome them. But without wanting to sound
like a bigot, I have to say that posts which take the standard ICE auto
industry line that EVs are impractical and/or inappropriate don't meet with
the list's intent.
We're here to discuss how to make EVs work well for more people, how to
develop them further, and how to promote their use. The list has evolved to
meet this purpose in part by helping hobbyists with the technical challenges
of building EVs and converting ICEVs to EVs.
Excerpt #2 : "An electric vehicle is any vehicle which uses an electric
motor as the primary or sole motive force. The energy storage device used to
drive said motor can use any technology including, but not limited to, solar
electric, electric battery, fuel cell, internal combustion engine coupled
with a electric generator (hybrids), or any combination of these."
Commentary : Discussion of FCVs >is< appropriate to this list. So is a
discussion of the relative merits of BEVs and FCVs. However, some years ago
participants in the list expressed, in a poll, a desire to limit FCEV
discussion. Until and unless a new poll (which I will generate soon) either
reaffirms or negates that position, we should try to avoid allowing FCEV
discussion to dominate the list.
List etiquette : I think it's reasonable to expect that participants here
will argue rationally and behave like socialized adults. Such crude
expressions as "shut your piehole" have no place in a rational discussion.
This kind of language only reflects poorly on the person using it. Please
refrain from using crude language and personal attacks.
Industry Insiders : There is nothing wrong with EVDL participation from ICE
automotive industry insiders and their apologists, as long as they adhere to
the above points. Specifically, they should avoid posting negative comments
on the utility or practicality of EVs. Rather, they should focus on
positive ways to make EVs more utilitarian and practical. They should also
be careful not to allow discussions of the auto industry's FCV research to
dominate the EVDL.
Industry insiders are always welcome to participate in the EVDL by posting
messages which aid in promoting EVs, building their own EVs, and helping
others to build their EVs.
Thanks for your understanding and cooperation with all these points.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Sep 2006 at 9:52, Rush wrote:
> Here is a Cushman EV on Ebay 230031709162
>
> I like his comment in the description -
> '5kHz sound controller lamination emission eliminates road kill EV problem.
That's Mark Hanson's. Even if I didn't know he was offering his Cushman for
sale, I'd recognize his descriptions anywhere. ;-)
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The original mp4 plays beautifully for me using VLC. But thanks anyway for
all your hard work to keep us connected!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of my other hobbies is electronics for music (amps, effects, etc).
There exists on the net a huge number of designs and plans for hobbyists to
build many these circuits. In fact there are whole sites set up just around
a single amplifier.
I realize the hobbyist EV is small in compared to the hobbyist music
industry, but are there any open source designs for AC or DC controllers?
Or maybe chargers? (notwithstanding Lee's fine battery balancer).
thanks
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well about a year ago, I started writing as I was
frustrated that my batteries were no longer hitting
186-189V.
Battery experts got me to understand that while 186
may have been satisfactory for brand new, they were
not so anymore. The mystery, was why wouldn't the
batteries taper down?
Over time, I cut the charger to a rate that would
gently bubble, (but not heat) the batteries. This is
around 173-175V for my 144V pack. Sure enough, the
charger tapers down to 6-7A.
At this point (2 yrs. on the pack), I have 3 batteries
that each have a cell that won't go past 1200 SG.
It is my perception that with active material flaked
around the cell, I am faced with that favorite
dilemma; replace whole pack, or replace the poor
cells.
I am leaning toward replacing the pack at this point.
Interstate is 90x18 or $1620 for the pack. I will go
with 165Ah, not 178Ah. Just don't think it's worth
the extra money; can use the extra weight, too.
I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery (ie,
one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265 SG),
and make a final decision.
So despite having 6 years experience with EVs under my
belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched with
my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
To those who responded then to my post, I continue to
be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
belt next time/next pack...
peace,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don, a number of links to designs and papers have been posted on this
list. Motor controllers are very well-understood technology.
Commercial controllers available for sale for EV's are rare because of
the high-power and normally they are part of an integrated solution, not
an independent component.
Here are just two links:
Curtis schematics http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/index.html
AC controller: http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/appnote3.pdf
personally, I've used this microchip app note:
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00899a.pdf
to build my BLDC controller for the jetski, which I hope to have out on
the water next week. :)
Jack
Don Cameron wrote:
One of my other hobbies is electronics for music (amps, effects, etc).
There exists on the net a huge number of designs and plans for hobbyists to
build many these circuits. In fact there are whole sites set up just around
a single amplifier.
I realize the hobbyist EV is small in compared to the hobbyist music
industry, but are there any open source designs for AC or DC controllers?
Or maybe chargers? (notwithstanding Lee's fine battery balancer).
thanks
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also there is this 150V 400A open source project
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/racingcontroller.html
that was posted by Philippe Borges
under the thread RE: Building a Controller Yourself
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My appnote3.pdf is mainly for small (<1000W) BLDC trapezoidal motors.
However, http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/drive96v.asm is a working
example of TMS320F241 code (it drives my car now). It uses
field-oriented control to control an AC induction motor.
Making a motor controller (whatever size) is actually fairly easy, once
you know how to do it. I've built at least ten, and about a quarter of
one was last night...
- Arthur
> Don, a number of links to designs and papers have been posted on this
> list. Motor controllers are very well-understood technology.
> Commercial controllers available for sale for EV's are rare because of
> the high-power and normally they are part of an integrated solution, not
> an independent component.
> Here are just two links:
> Curtis schematics http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/index.html
> AC controller: http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/appnote3.pdf
>
> personally, I've used this microchip app note:
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00899a.pdf
> to build my BLDC controller for the jetski, which I hope to have out on
> the water next week. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Yes!
>
> > are you building a car from scratch?
>
> > > Given that I want to build a high performance mid engine EV that
will go
> > > 0-60 in about 5 second with a top end of nearly 200 mph and you have
> > > $4,000
> > > to spend on a transaxle, what brand of transaxle would you buy,
and why?
I think the cars that can handle 200mph have *very* expensive parts,
and it would be appropriate to expect to pay a lot more than that
based on the application you propose. You need to post your total
budget allowance - the EV retailers on this list know these numbers well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Making a motor controller (whatever size) is actually fairly easy, once
> you know how to do it. I've built at least ten, and about a quarter of
> one was last night...
>
> - Arthur
>
I take it you're past the "coffee can full of dead fets" stage in
production...?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hewland NMT? oh, you said 4K, nevermind.
Seriously, what motor? (I came in on the middle of this thread) The VW
bus transaxle, it was led to the hewland line of trannies and there are
lots of straight cut dog gear shot peened gear sets available.
The other possibility are the acura transaxles for the FWD and use an
aftermarket gear set.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many thousands of dollars wasted, yes, but my goals are for mass
production as opposed to just making something work. If you just want a
car, and not an enterprise, you use IGBT modules found on E-Bay that
have fault and overtemperature protection.
- Arthur
P.S.: What is your name? The "Death to All Spammers" title is kind of
awkward.
> I take it you're past the "coffee can full of dead fets" stage in
> production...?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Norris died?
>From: Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2006 18:29:31 -0600
>
>I'm going to open my big mouth here and try to speak for the whole
>list. (Yes it's true, when Chuck Norris died he appointed me God.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Looking for a way to charge a 6x12V pack of ~100Ah AGM batteries for maximum
life. The Manufacturer says I will loose more than 50% of life cycles if my
maximum available current is a fraction of their recommended 40 to 50A.
If I charge each battery in turn until it is full, the user will
occasionally try to drive away with some empty batteries. What will happen
if I rotate thru the pack charging each for a minute or so at 40-50A?
Thinking of one or two dumb & beefy 15V power supplies roving the pack under
control of a Lee Hart Balancer type of module.
Thanks,
John
John Foster
Vancouver BC
www.veva.ca
www.itiselectric.com
"If it ain't broke, keep it away from me."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> P.S.: What is your name? The "Death to All Spammers" title is kind of
> awkward.
>
You can call me Russell, but my knowledge of IGgyBiTs and Mossyfets is
all from the EE's on the list, so I'll defer to your knowledge on the
subject - I'll just keep to driving my EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
E-bike at Stanford From the Arcane list.
Posted by: "David Russel" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cits4fun
Date: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:53 pm (PDT)
Hmm,
should we recruit this guy and his ride?
http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2006/sepoct/farm/news/motorcycle.html
Check out what he used for the motor. guess he really has a clean machine.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Looking for a way to charge a 6x12V pack of ~100Ah AGM batteries for
maximum
> life. The Manufacturer says I will loose more than 50% of life
cycles if my
> maximum available current is a fraction of their recommended 40 to 50A.
>
Sorry if I didn't get this, but are they saying you'll lose cycle life
if you don't charge close to 40-50A for a 100Ah battery? Hawkers are
suppose to prefer high amps, but do they really lose *that* much if
you charge at lower rates?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 22, 2006, at 5:28 PM, Mick Abraham wrote:
Mick says: Thanks also to Lee Hart for his cooperative response. Here
are
some suggestions about testing procedures. Since model 250-6V-4 is one
of
the most EV appropriate, 3rd party testing around that model would seem
best. Four golf cart batteries in series would be a good match as a
test
bed.
I suspect that balancing is used much more often on EVs with AGM
battery packs. These are mostly 12v batteries. They tend to be more
expensive and often have a short life without something to help keep
them in line (the owner of such an EV learns quickly that he wants to
keep them balanced :-) Even though golf cart battery powered EVs are
more common EV sales are likely to lean toward 12v units.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do you want to know about the design? It couldn't be simpler. There are
2 wheels in back. They arrive as a glider & a controller (made in Oregon) is
stuck in the back. The motor is in the back on the right, coupled by a CV
shaft to the left rear wheel. Batts are all inside, on the floorboard (and
slightly below, if I recall.) They form a T, with the cross bar being at the
rear of the car, 3 batts. The down bar is the center "hump" between the
seats, covered with a detachable padded lid.
You just can't get simpler than that... an oversized PowerWheels. <g> There
was some talk that perhaps 1 or 2 additional batts could be added behind the
rear seat, in the motor compartment.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
> Sure, they're crappy little Chinese deathtraps, but they are also a
> basis for MODIFICATION! Maybe if someone on the list has $10K to sink
> on one they can post pictures of the internal workings. You don't want
> to go faster than 45mph, so not higher voltage but better and/or
> bigger SLAs, then a high amp controller, and after that fries the
> original, a better motor. Once you get some decent performance, add
> some safety enhancements (I don't know what you'd do, but worth a try)
> and efficiency help (aero and tire upgrades). This list is rife with
> "experimenters" who like to, how should I say it, upgrade?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah... keep watching. In a couple days he's likely to be there again, under
a different name.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
> > I have reported the seller - maybe others should, too, just to make
> > sure they get the hint.
> >
>
> Wow - just rechecked and these have ALL been pulled! Those eBay guys
> work late!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is one, mainly battlebot controller, but can probably be upgraded to EV
http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/SpeedControl/SpeedControllers.html
Another for a 400V, 200A Three Phase Motor Controller - Power electronics HW
http://innovexpo.itee.uq.edu.au/2003/exhibits/s354264/, scroll down to the
bottom of the page for the thesis PFD.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 11:39 AM
Subject: Open Source Designs for Controllers
> One of my other hobbies is electronics for music (amps, effects, etc).
> There exists on the net a huge number of designs and plans for hobbyists to
> build many these circuits. In fact there are whole sites set up just around
> a single amplifier.
>
> I realize the hobbyist EV is small in compared to the hobbyist music
> industry, but are there any open source designs for AC or DC controllers?
> Or maybe chargers? (notwithstanding Lee's fine battery balancer).
>
>
> thanks
> Don
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
we're waiting on someone to scan a better version, lots of the pages have
illegible spots
like this one
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/controller/page12.gif
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 2:55 PM
Subject: RE: Open Source Designs for Controllers
Also there is this 150V 400A open source project
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/racingcontroller.html
that was posted by Philippe Borges
under the thread RE: Building a Controller Yourself
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sitting here with a 2004 iBook G4 that has a recalled Li-ion
battery in it. It still happens.
Paul "neon" G.
On Sep 23, 2006, at 5:59 AM, Mike Phillips wrote:
The last time I saw a Lion recall was in the mid 90's. Sony had a
problem with their charging circuit and burned a Powerbook to the
ground. When one of our engineers walked past us with it it smelled in
a big way. Even though it was the very early very volatile cells, it
eneded up not mattering because once the cells start on fire, you are
just along for the ride. So I don't remember any more recalls since
then. Although my portable hardware exposure was limited after I left
Apple. It's much cheaper to be safe financially and just offer a
recall.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not like a spam bot is going to read your name, tremble in fear,
and think "oh I better not send him spam, he obviously does not like
it". Not only does no one read the email addresses, it's already
assumed nobody wants to get it. So it's not even clear who you're
talking to. I didn't get the joke either.
Danny
Death to All Spammers wrote:
P.S.: What is your name? The "Death to All Spammers" title is kind of
awkward.
You can call me Russell, but my knowledge of IGgyBiTs and Mossyfets is
all from the EE's on the list, so I'll defer to your knowledge on the
subject - I'll just keep to driving my EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bob,
On your next pack of 144 volts. Try to not charge over 177.6 volts when the
batteries are at 80 degrees F. This is 7.4 volts per 6 volts or 14.8 per 12
volts. If the battery temperature is lower, than the maximum I charge at is
7.5 volts per 6 volt or 15 volts per 12 volt.
Any time I see any one of the batteries have more than a 0.04 volt
difference from the highest battery to the lowest battery, than I will do a
equalization charge which is 7.73 volts per 6 volts or 15.46 volts per 12
volt. I only do this equalization charge now every three or more months.
15.46 x 12 = 185.52 volts! Its look like you were doing balance or
equalization charging everytime which really cooks the batteries, instead of
doing bulk charging which would be between 177 to 180 volts.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:15 PM
Subject: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
> Well about a year ago, I started writing as I was
> frustrated that my batteries were no longer hitting
> 186-189V.
>
> Battery experts got me to understand that while 186
> may have been satisfactory for brand new, they were
> not so anymore. The mystery, was why wouldn't the
> batteries taper down?
>
> Over time, I cut the charger to a rate that would
> gently bubble, (but not heat) the batteries. This is
> around 173-175V for my 144V pack. Sure enough, the
> charger tapers down to 6-7A.
>
> At this point (2 yrs. on the pack), I have 3 batteries
> that each have a cell that won't go past 1200 SG.
>
> It is my perception that with active material flaked
> around the cell, I am faced with that favorite
> dilemma; replace whole pack, or replace the poor
> cells.
>
> I am leaning toward replacing the pack at this point.
> Interstate is 90x18 or $1620 for the pack. I will go
> with 165Ah, not 178Ah. Just don't think it's worth
> the extra money; can use the extra weight, too.
>
> I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery (ie,
> one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265 SG),
> and make a final decision.
>
> So despite having 6 years experience with EVs under my
> belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched with
> my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
>
> To those who responded then to my post, I continue to
> be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
> Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
> belt next time/next pack...
> peace,
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"to build my BLDC controller for the jetski,"
Do you plan on sharing more information on your
design?
One of my designs is listed here, on the OSMC yahoo
group,
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/files/Rod%27s%20BLDC%20control/
Thanks,
Rod
--- Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don, a number of links to designs and papers have
> been posted on this
> list. Motor controllers are very well-understood
> technology.
> Commercial controllers available for sale for EV's
> are rare because of
> the high-power and normally they are part of an
> integrated solution, not
> an independent component.
> Here are just two links:
> Curtis schematics
> http://cafeelectric.com/curtis/index.html
> AC controller:
> http://www.egr.msu.edu/~mattes12/appnote3.pdf
>
> personally, I've used this microchip app note:
>
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00899a.pdf
> to build my BLDC controller for the jetski, which I
> hope to have out on
> the water next week. :)
>
> Jack
>
>
> Don Cameron wrote:
> > One of my other hobbies is electronics for music
> (amps, effects, etc).
> > There exists on the net a huge number of designs
> and plans for hobbyists to
> > build many these circuits. In fact there are
> whole sites set up just around
> > a single amplifier.
> >
> > I realize the hobbyist EV is small in compared to
> the hobbyist music
> > industry, but are there any open source designs
> for AC or DC controllers?
> > Or maybe chargers? (notwithstanding Lee's fine
> battery balancer).
> >
> >
> > thanks
> > Don
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David,
Not to be critical, but it is funny to see you send an
elaborate response on Fuel Cells and Hydrogen, followed
by an excerpt post of the list etiquette, which effectively
says that you should not do that.
Good to indicate the boundaries for everyone from time to time
but I just thought this was funny, at least you have shown that
you are human ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 9:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New GM electric car
I think the cost and complexity problems of fuel cells can be overcome.
History shows that If Tokyo sets their sights on doing it, it will be done.
There is a good chance that you could also plug Beijing in place of Tokyo in
that sentence, but that hasn't nearly as much successful history behind it,
so time will tell.
It may even be possible to overcome fuel cells' specific power, which I
understand is pretty low.
Other issues, such as startup time, lifespan, the expensive and scarce
materials that are required - these are also not in surmountable (provided
enough money gets thrown at them).
The insurmountable problems I see with fuel cells lie in the fuel, not in
the cells.
Remember that hydrogen is not a fuel, it's an energy carrier. The energy
has to come from some other source.
If it's from a fossil fuel, the reforming process releases CO2 and other
impurities. Of course the hydrogen can be made by electrolysis from
renewable sources.
But with either source, there are still problems :
= Both reforming and electrolys are relatively inefficient.
= Hydrogen storage is variable (and often low) in efficiency - hydrides are
heavy and tanks require considerable energy for compression.
= Energy is required to transport the hydrogen, either in pipelines or with
tanker vehicles, further diminising efficiency.
= Fuel cells are also less efficient than batteries.
What it add up to is a serious hit in efficiency.
Suppose that you run your FCV on hydrogen from a natural gas reformer. You
will STILL have a less efficient system than if you burned the natural gas
in a piston engine. And THAT will be somewhat less efficient than if you
burned the NG in a powerplant and charged the batteries in an EV. (Proof of
these assertions will be left as an exercise for the reader. ;-)
OK, suppose we allow that an FCV does use electricity as its fuel (that is,
not reformed fossil fuel). Even then, the entire "supply chain" from, say,
PV cell or wind machine to wheels will STILL be less efficient, more
complex, and more expensive than using the same electricity in a BEV.
Thus the only real gains from an FCV are that it allows for fast refueling,
and for minimal disruption to the current refueling infrastructure. The
costs in efficiency for these small gains are high.
And here is the key. Who are you going to sell them to? We're told that
BEVs were a "failure" in the marketplace, and the reason usually given is
that they offer no significant consumer benefits over ICEs. Well, what
consumer benefits do FCVs offer over ICEs?
It's very difficult to show that FCVs have a place in a free market - and
most current Western governments show very little inclination to disturb
free market principles in ways that promote such social goals as clean air
and fuel independence. Even with their current limitations, there is more
potential market for BEVs than for FCVs.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
It may depend on the type of AGMs.
Indeed Hawker has made excuses to people with DC systems
that charged slowly and found the Hawkers to lose capacity
quickly. Other manufacturers do not have such requirements.
I charge my 110Ah AGMs with max 10A until the float voltage
level (13.6V per battery), so I do not gas them.
Then occasionally after the previous charging has tapered off
to low amps, I set a 2A current limit and let them slowly rise
to the "cycle charging" voltage limit of 14.8V, so the current
is low enough that they should be able to recombine the gas
and not vent.
FYI, my batteries are lying on their side to fit in the
existing battery box, partly below the cabin of the truck.
I have now 4100 miles on this pack and have taken it as far
as 63 miles on a single charge at Freeway speed. I notice
no loss of capacity, though I have an AC system and can send
brief jolts of 90 Amps back into the pack.
Since I do not have balancers on this pack, I may have hurt
some of the batteries during my longer trips as it seems that
some batteries had either lower capacity or were not balancing
with the rest, so 3 batteries (of the 26) are in less good shape
though I can still drive the truck and have no noticeable loss
of range, I simply see them fall to lower voltage under load.
The manufacturer has shipped 3 new batteries under warranty as
it is less than 1 year since I ordered the original pack.
Next activity will be to manufacture 26 balancers (clampers)
and I want to integrate low voltage detection, so I know when
to back off on the current and avoid reversing a cell on a
long trip.
I already have a design for such a circuit, so I need to find a
bit of time to breadboard it and try it to see if it works as
designed.
I intend to have 3 indicators in the dashboard, isolated from
the pack through opto-couplers in the balancers:
- (RED) low voltage warning
- (Yellow) one or more batteries at max charge voltage
- (Green) all batteries are at max charge voltage
The yellow warning will tell the charger to back off the
current to avoid gassing a battery that is higher in SOC
than others.
The green indicator is the "end of charge" signal.
I am debating if I should make a control signal to disable
the clampers to allow equalising the batteries without
wasting power in every clamper.
I hope to be able to reach 2A max clamping current, so the
occasional equalisation to take them over 13.6V to 14.8V
will burn 2A x 13.6 x 26 or over 700Watt.
(Alternative -money- view: 4c per hour wasted)
My fear is that the circuit will become too complex, so it
will not be used or easy to build as my current design
which is optimised in minimum component count.
I only use 12 components per battery for the current limited
clamping and low voltage detect circuitry, 4 more to get
on-board indication for two LEDs plus resistors, again 4
more for opto-couplers feeding the two signals to a central
point, where all signals are combined for the 3 indicators.
Currently I do not have temperature compensation included
in the thresholds for the clamper and low voltage detector
as I use a fixed 2.5V voltage reference. The low voltage
detector does not need it, but it may be good to have a
temp dependent clamp level, so I will need to add a diode
and a reference divider, adding 3 components.
Total of 23 components with all indications and temp
correction for a current limited clamper and low voltage
detector per battery.
I will publish the circuit after validating its correct
operation.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
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Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Foster
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 2:13 PM
To: evlist
Subject: Charging AGMs for Max life
Hi All,
Looking for a way to charge a 6x12V pack of ~100Ah AGM batteries for maximum
life. The Manufacturer says I will loose more than 50% of life cycles if my
maximum available current is a fraction of their recommended 40 to 50A.
If I charge each battery in turn until it is full, the user will
occasionally try to drive away with some empty batteries. What will happen
if I rotate thru the pack charging each for a minute or so at 40-50A?
Thinking of one or two dumb & beefy 15V power supplies roving the pack under
control of a Lee Hart Balancer type of module.
Thanks,
John
John Foster
Vancouver BC
www.veva.ca
www.itiselectric.com
"If it ain't broke, keep it away from me."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I am afraid you are twisting my words just a little too far to
represent what I said.
I said: "... the only thing that is boggling my mind is that
there is no known way to realistically make H2 efficiently ..."
So this clearly indicates that my mind is open to new information
regarding efficient H2 production, but that the data says there
is no currently known way to do this.
That is quite different than saying it is my opinion that h2 can
never be commerically viable, because that is a closed statement
and with that you created your view of me having a closed mind.
My suggestion was actually to not even take personal attacks as
personal, but judge them in a factual manner. That takes a lot
of restraint and you may still want to report abuse to the list
moderator, but when you can muster this, it will take the bite
out of a lot of discussions and we can agree or disagree based
on facts, not on likes or dislikes of persons.
This way we will be able to learn a lot and avoid frustration.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Norton
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 23:38, Cor van de Water wrote:
> John,
>
> Many people on this list are off beat in one way or another.
> Please do not make it a personal matter if you receive some
> critical notes, supported with data in an open discussion
> and try to take attacks in a factual manner, not aimed at
> the person.
Only personal attacks are taken personally.
You seem to have missed the fact that instead of factual arguments, I
have gotten name calling and side order of conspiracy theory.
Opinions can differ, and that's fine. Opinions are not fact. That
scientist A holds an opinion is a fact, but it doesn't make scientist
a's opinion fact.
It is your opinion that h2 can never be commerically viable, and others
may agree with you, in fact every single person on this list except me
may be in total agreement with it - still makes it an opinion.
Every major automaker holds a different one - and are putting hundreds
of millions of dollars up on that bet. Sure, some of that is taxpayer
subsidized. But the vast majority is private money.
And here is where all the (self)righteous anger is so ironic - you've
won the argument. All of the carmakers agree with you - buring fossil
fuels is not the future for automobiles. The future belongs to electric
vehicles, by the end of the next decade. They have a different way of
charging the vehicle, but its electric nonetheless.
Finally, I will leave you with this. One person with the opinion that
h2 fuel cell vehicles are the future is Vice President Gore. That's an
opinion, and he may well be wrong. But my point is that I hardly think
the former VP could be considered a shill for the oil companies or the
automakers. It is possible for someone to examine the issue rationally
and arrive at an opinion without being a part of the vast conspiracy.
And anyone who will not accept that is closed minded.
--- End Message ---
