EV Digest 5908
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Diesel electric...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT Re: New GM electric car
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EVDL mission (was: New GM electric car)
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ampabout ... Is it more expensive? Cheaper? Free?
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Diesel electric...
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery Balancing
by "Mick Abraham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Diesel electric...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Balancing
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: distance formula
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
OK, so this isn't an all electric car, but I was talking with my brother in
law about
electric cars and he felt a better intermediate step would be to use a
diesel generator
to generate the required power for an electric car. The generator would run
at
.7 gal per hour.
If this was applied to a vehicle at 40 mph that would give about 57 MPG.
This would allow for an easier transition into full electric cars.
Just curious about any thoughts.
_________________________________________________________________
Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and moreĀ
then map the best
route! http://local.live.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's what's such a bummer: I followed US Battery's
advice (see website), and wound up murdering the pack.
Yes, I do believe this was a case of EQ'ing the pack
on practically every charge...
Trojan, meanwhile, sticks more to your regimen.
Now I'm curious to try the red goo that you've sworn
by before!
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Bob,
>
> On your next pack of 144 volts. Try to not charge
> over 177.6 volts when the
> batteries are at 80 degrees F. This is 7.4 volts per
> 6 volts or 14.8 per 12
> volts. If the battery temperature is lower, than
> the maximum I charge at is
> 7.5 volts per 6 volt or 15 volts per 12 volt.
>
> Any time I see any one of the batteries have more
> than a 0.04 volt
> difference from the highest battery to the lowest
> battery, than I will do a
> equalization charge which is 7.73 volts per 6 volts
> or 15.46 volts per 12
> volt. I only do this equalization charge now every
> three or more months.
>
> 15.46 x 12 = 185.52 volts! Its look like you were
> doing balance or
> equalization charging everytime which really cooks
> the batteries, instead of
> doing bulk charging which would be between 177 to
> 180 volts.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:15 PM
> Subject: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to
> Roger & Roland
>
>
> > Well about a year ago, I started writing as I was
> > frustrated that my batteries were no longer
> hitting
> > 186-189V.
> >
> > Battery experts got me to understand that while
> 186
> > may have been satisfactory for brand new, they
> were
> > not so anymore. The mystery, was why wouldn't the
> > batteries taper down?
> >
> > Over time, I cut the charger to a rate that would
> > gently bubble, (but not heat) the batteries. This
> is
> > around 173-175V for my 144V pack. Sure enough,
> the
> > charger tapers down to 6-7A.
> >
> > At this point (2 yrs. on the pack), I have 3
> batteries
> > that each have a cell that won't go past 1200 SG.
> >
> > It is my perception that with active material
> flaked
> > around the cell, I am faced with that favorite
> > dilemma; replace whole pack, or replace the poor
> > cells.
> >
> > I am leaning toward replacing the pack at this
> point.
> > Interstate is 90x18 or $1620 for the pack. I will
> go
> > with 165Ah, not 178Ah. Just don't think it's
> worth
> > the extra money; can use the extra weight, too.
> >
> > I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery
> (ie,
> > one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265
> SG),
> > and make a final decision.
> >
> > So despite having 6 years experience with EVs
> under my
> > belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched
> with
> > my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
> >
> > To those who responded then to my post, I continue
> to
> > be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
> > Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
> > belt next time/next pack...
> > peace,
> >
> >
> > Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> > has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch
> too!
> > Learn more at:
> > www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> > ____
> > __/__|__\ __
> > =D-------/ - - \
> > 'O'-----'O'-'
> > Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
> came out of the steering
> > wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It's not like a spam bot is going to read your name, tremble in fear,
> and think "oh I better not send him spam, he obviously does not like
> it". Not only does no one read the email addresses, it's already
> assumed nobody wants to get it. So it's not even clear who you're
> talking to. I didn't get the joke either.
>
1. You do know that Death to All Spammers is the title of the email
account, not the email address? It's yahoo, so they let you call it
whatever you want, even if it's exactly the same as what someone else
has, because it's not the email address itself.
2. To what does "not even clear who you're talking to" and "I didn't
get the joke either" refer, that I defer to the more knowledgeable on
the list or some other quote you aren't repeating? Maybe you or I got
in the middle of a line of discussion the other wasn't following...?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Chuck Norris died?
>
>
No, but there has been a string of Chuck Norris jokes online for a few
months - my son can rattle off quite a few, too bad he's not home to
recite some for me to transcribe. Yes, we are verging maddingly on the
edge of the OT abyss.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Propane and natural gas are readily available, but I don't know where I'd get
H2. I think
H2 is almost 'un-available' for most persons. H2 does power Fuel Cells for
electricity to
run an EV motor and charge batteries. H2 does seem to have its converts,
though, who
believe it is the way of the future.
Steam trains were replaced in New York City in the 1920s as they were a fire
hazard, and
smoke hazard in tunnels. Diesels were still reletively new at the time and it
was not
clear they could work, but steam trains were almost entirely replaced. A lot of
people
feel the same way about electric cars, that an EV is not a valid replacement
for the
'normal' ICE car. It doesn't have to be a replacement. It is already decent for
a car and
better in a lot of ways.
Politics, public policy, and Fuel cells are all sort of fringe topics I think.
As Cor van
de Water commented, I agree: I have not written off Fuel Cells in general
(there are many
more types than the Hydrogen ones) nor have I decided that H2 is impossible,
the only
thing that is boggling my mind is that there is no known way to realistically
make H2
efficiently, yet everyone (even the president!) is saying that this is the way
to go. THAT
is having a closed mind.
Steve -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 1:50 PM
Subject: EVDL mission (was : New GM electric car)
> Just a reminder of a few points relative to the EVDL's mission. The
> following quotations are lifted right from the list charter, which you may
> read in its entirety at http://www.evdl.org/help/ :
>
> Excerpt #1 : "The EV Electric Vehicle Discussion Mailing List is intended to
> provide a forum to discuss the current state of the art and future direction
> of electric vehicles. It is not intended to discuss either EV
> appropriateness or comparisons with other transportation primary drive modes
> such as the
> venerable internal combustion engine."
>
> Commentary : The purpose of this list is NOT to debate whether EVs are
> appropriate technology. There's nothing wrong with discussing the
> limitations of EVs and how to overcome them. But without wanting to sound
> like a bigot, I have to say that posts which take the standard ICE auto
> industry line that EVs are impractical and/or inappropriate don't meet with
> the list's intent.
>
> We're here to discuss how to make EVs work well for more people, how to
> develop them further, and how to promote their use. The list has evolved to
> meet this purpose in part by helping hobbyists with the technical challenges
> of building EVs and converting ICEVs to EVs.
>
> Excerpt #2 : "An electric vehicle is any vehicle which uses an electric
> motor as the primary or sole motive force. The energy storage device used to
> drive said motor can use any technology including, but not limited to, solar
> electric, electric battery, fuel cell, internal combustion engine coupled
> with a electric generator (hybrids), or any combination of these."
>
> Commentary : Discussion of FCVs >is< appropriate to this list. So is a
> discussion of the relative merits of BEVs and FCVs. However, some years ago
> participants in the list expressed, in a poll, a desire to limit FCEV
> discussion. Until and unless a new poll (which I will generate soon) either
> reaffirms or negates that position, we should try to avoid allowing FCEV
> discussion to dominate the list.
>
> List etiquette : I think it's reasonable to expect that participants here
> will argue rationally and behave like socialized adults. Such crude
> expressions as "shut your piehole" have no place in a rational discussion.
> This kind of language only reflects poorly on the person using it. Please
> refrain from using crude language and personal attacks.
>
> Industry Insiders : There is nothing wrong with EVDL participation from ICE
> automotive industry insiders and their apologists, as long as they adhere to
> the above points. Specifically, they should avoid posting negative comments
> on the utility or practicality of EVs. Rather, they should focus on
> positive ways to make EVs more utilitarian and practical. They should also
> be careful not to allow discussions of the auto industry's FCV research to
> dominate the EVDL.
>
> Industry insiders are always welcome to participate in the EVDL by posting
> messages which aid in promoting EVs, building their own EVs, and helping
> others to build their EVs.
>
> Thanks for your understanding and cooperation with all these points.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ - the former contact address
> ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) will soon disappear.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/19/06, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bruce wrote:
> This year's Event should be much bigger than last year since
> Tesla is going to attend and other production EVs are planned to
> also come.
Ideally, it would be really neat if you could get ALL the EV's there.
Tango, T-Zero, Wrightspeed X1, and potentially any Chinese made EV's
that are currently over here.
Who do we ask? It looks like the Tango, tZero, Wrightspeed, and Tesla will
all be there. Which Chinese-made EVs are you thinking of?
Since the event really is "news", inform the local papers and
television news stations in advance. Let them know that pre
production, prototype EV's will be there on display.
Agreed...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> OK, so this isn't an all electric car, but I was talking with my
brother in
> law about
> electric cars and he felt a better intermediate step would be to use a
> diesel generator
> to generate the required power for an electric car. The generator
would run
> at
> .7 gal per hour.
>
> If this was applied to a vehicle at 40 mph that would give about 57 MPG.
>
> This would allow for an easier transition into full electric cars.
>
> Just curious about any thoughts.
>
40mph is a bit slow - that 57mpg drops to, what, 35 mpg at freeway
speeds? If you use the specs from Lombardini as typical
(http://www.lombardinigroup.it/starter.php?lang=2), lowest fuel use
averages 160gm/hp-hr air-cooled to 180gm/hp-hr water-cooled. Those
values are for larger (~400#) engines and get worse as you get
smaller, and that is before generator loses (and charging loses if you
intend to keep up the SOC, too).
After Toyota comes out with their own PHEV, maybe they'll take the
next step and make a diesel version, too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I heard about this 3 battery thing. What kind of configuration is this?
What battery chemestry? Lawrence Rhodes............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:23 PM
Subject: Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
> What do you want to know about the design? It couldn't be simpler. There
are
> 2 wheels in back. They arrive as a glider & a controller (made in Oregon)
is
> stuck in the back. The motor is in the back on the right, coupled by a CV
> shaft to the left rear wheel. Batts are all inside, on the floorboard (and
> slightly below, if I recall.) They form a T, with the cross bar being at
the
> rear of the car, 3 batts. The down bar is the center "hump" between the
> seats, covered with a detachable padded lid.
>
> You just can't get simpler than that... an oversized PowerWheels. <g>
There
> was some talk that perhaps 1 or 2 additional batts could be added behind
the
> rear seat, in the motor compartment.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Xebra test drive from the Arcane list.
>
>
> > Sure, they're crappy little Chinese deathtraps, but they are also a
> > basis for MODIFICATION! Maybe if someone on the list has $10K to sink
> > on one they can post pictures of the internal workings. You don't want
> > to go faster than 45mph, so not higher voltage but better and/or
> > bigger SLAs, then a high amp controller, and after that fries the
> > original, a better motor. Once you get some decent performance, add
> > some safety enhancements (I don't know what you'd do, but worth a try)
> > and efficiency help (aero and tire upgrades). This list is rife with
> > "experimenters" who like to, how should I say it, upgrade?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> What do you want to know about the design? It couldn't be simpler.
There are
> 2 wheels in back. They arrive as a glider & a controller (made in
Oregon) is
> stuck in the back. The motor is in the back on the right, coupled by
a CV
> shaft to the left rear wheel. Batts are all inside, on the
floorboard (and
> slightly below, if I recall.) They form a T, with the cross bar
being at the
> rear of the car, 3 batts. The down bar is the center "hump" between the
> seats, covered with a detachable padded lid.
>
> You just can't get simpler than that... an oversized PowerWheels.
<g> There
> was some talk that perhaps 1 or 2 additional batts could be added
behind the
> rear seat, in the motor compartment.
2 rear wheels but only one that is powered? I had a Marketeer like
that. Guess you wouldn't want too much torque from a take-off, so a
PMG upgrade may be too much. What is the Ahr capacity and how good are
the batteries themselves?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re: Battery Balancing
Paul "neon" G. said: "I suspect that balancing is used much more often on
EVs with AGM battery packs. These are mostly 12v batteries...EV sales are
likely to lean toward 12v units." Mick says, Hi, Paul, thanks for joining
in. I agree that AGMs plus balancers are the most likely combination. The
more valuable AGMs make the cost of the balancers easier to justify. Also,
of course, sealed batteries like AGM's are less tolerant of overcharge style
EQ charging than their wet cousins are.
Mick says: You may be right that 12V monoblocs are the wave of the future. I
understand that all new Club Car brand golf carts will have four 12 volt
monoblocs. In my opinion, that represents a big mistake by the Club Car
engineers, because we're just now on the cusp of being able to balance 6
volt increments, and they're moving up to 12 volt "corrals". The bigger the
corral, the less control the battery balancing system can exert over the
cells. Trojan builds model 6V-AGM which is a traditional golf cart battery
in AGM. I've also been selling AGM's from a different company that not only
has golf cart AGM units, but even 400 amp-hour 6 volt AGM "L-16's"--a very
common building block in my industry. The same mfr. also has the 8V golf
cart batteries in AGM, but a matching balancer solution is a bit tricky for
that increment. More about 12 volt balancing below. I will ask Smart Spark
about availability on their wheelchair version BattEQ, and report back to
the List. As discussed below, I don't think this is big enough for the
YellowToppers out there, but it would be cheap and simple for those who just
want to do some "proof of concept" testing.
John Lussmyer said: "You do realize that Optima YT's are only rated at 55AH?
And their useable capacity in many EV's is more like 40AH?" Mick says: Sorry
about my having a "senior moment" regarding the YellowTop rating. I haven't
reviewed the specs on those batteries for a few years. I still feel that the
wheelchair model BattEQ(TM) (or any balancer in the 2 amp range) would not
be ideal for most car-sized YellowTop strings.
This is a good time to discuss Smart Spark's amp-hour ratings and how to
apply them. Their wheelchair model # would be LA-50-12V-2. The 50 is for 50
amp-hours. If I were to build a tiny 24V photovoltaic system (and if I was
determined to use 12 volt monoblocs instead of 6 volt monoblocs), I might
deploy that wheelchair unit onto a 105 amp-hour string of batteries. This
would be "overclocking" the BattEQ device, and I do have permission from the
factory to overclock in certain situations. I can get away with that in a
solar application with a big battery relative to the charge rate/discharge
rate. The charge rate & discharge rate may be only about C/30, or 3 amps, so
a 2 amp balancer is plenty.
Now consider a real electric wheelchair, with a more "industrial standard"
way of using the battery bank. I don't know the exact details, but it's
probably something like 7 amps of discharge, and pretty steady. That's about
C/7 and an overnight charging system would be a similar amount (or even
slower rate) of recharge energy. All of Smart Spark's amp-hour numbers are
based on this sort of mainstream industrial way of cycling the battery, so
Smart Spark's 50 amp-hours is a good battery size limit to respect in that
situation.
A 50 a-h battery in a wheelchair is a very different system from a 55 a-h
string of YellowTops in an electric car. I'm guessing here, but I'll bet
lots of YT based EV's draw an average of at least 55 amps during discharge.
That's C/1. Also, I know that many EV owners want a relatively fast
recharge, as well. In a situation like this, BattEQ deployments should be
"underclocked", meaning that you'll want a unit that carries an amp-hour
number bigger than the actual amp-hours in your string. I think 2 amps is
probably not enough transfer capability to offset the voltage suppression
suffered by a weak YT during high discharge. Model #LA-100-12V-4 is at the
"twinkle in the eye" stage at Smart Spark, and seems to me more appropriate
for heavy duty YT users.
If BattEQ is clocked too high, the voltages in the pack will diverge too
widely. The bigger delta-V (or "difference in voltage" for List members who
don't know) would try to drive more current than the balancer is designed
for. To self-protect, BattEQ would reduce its switching frequency as a way
of limiting the amperage throughput, but that means the segment voltages
would stay wide apart. If even the slower frequency switching can't prevent
destructively high currents, BattEQ shuts down and indicates same by a
change in the LED blink rate. A manual reset is then required as would be
appropriate in case there's a shorted cell or other unusual reason for the
excessively high amp transfer.
Two or more balancers could be paralleled to increase the transfer
capability. If sufficient numbers could be presold, Smart Spark would build
a special version BattEQ to our specifications, but we'd need to pool up
orders in the hundreds of units. We'd also need to figure out: how much
amperage transfer capability do we want to ask for? With the way most
electric vehicle owners grind on their batteries, it should be pretty high.
BTW: the "grinding thing" is why I've always enjoyed learning more about
batteries from the EV crowd. You're hardcore battery users; if something
works OK for you, it should work more than OK for solar guys like me.
A couple of posts back, Lee Hart had this suggestion for testing amperage
throughput of BattEQ: "Start with two batteries at an identical state of
charge. Take a known number of amphours out of one battery. Enable the
BattEQ, and record the volts, amps, and amphours that flow between the
batteries." Mick says: I had earlier posted an alternate suggestion on how
to test for BattEQ's ability to pump power, but I wish to discuss why the
above approach would not fairly demonstrate the full BattEQ capability.
In Lee's suggested setup, 75% of the delta V would disappear long before 75%
of the amp-hour imbalance is corrected. The amp transfer rate would start
big but diminish quickly as the delta-V narrows. This may sound like Lee's
original criticism of the flying capacitor concept, but it cannot be blamed
on the cap-based equalizer. This is just how a battery behaves: when it
comes under charge, its voltage rises disproportionately to the amount of
energy transfer that has occurred.
Again assuming Lee's suggested setup, BattEQ's power delivery from high
segments to low segments would continue at an ever-diminishing rate until
the voltages equalize, but it could take days and days before all the
amp-hours have been restored. Picture an absorption charge that would begin
as soon as BattEQ is deployed, and be aware that the completion of that
initial leveling operation could take a while to complete. The big balancing
need is not to eliminate tiny voltage differences right away, but to pump
bigger power as required when the voltage differences increase.
If you had a variable power supply rated for 8 amps, but set it for constant
voltage slightly higher than the resting voltage of a battery that you wish
to charge, you'll never see 8 amps from that charger for very long. The
battery voltage would quickly rise, narrowing the delta-V and also reducing
the number of amps moving from charger to battery. That doesn't mean that
the power supply can't deliver 8 amps--it just means that the 8 amps can't
occur unless there's a bigger delta-V.
As I stated before, Lee's suggested test rig doesn't mimic what batteries
actually need in a real world situation. My suggestion to artificially pull
down the voltage on one battery in the string by using a rheostat comes
closer to simulating what occurs when the voltage on a weak battery in the
string slumps during discharge. A real-time delta-V then develops which
forces BattEQ to pump power in an attempt to eliminate the delta-V, and it's
in this situation where one can see what BattEQ can really do.
Mick Abraham
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
to be along with Tesla EV.
It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well. That's 4
different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
jorg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The idea has come up many times. As noted, one issue is that the mpg
may not be all that remarkable, it can be worse than the original
vehicle's engine.
There are several other questions. Generators are rarely designed for
emissions, lacking a fuel injection system, sensors, and a catalytic
converter. I assume there are generators made with these features but
if so they are not cheap, stock items. If the design saves a few mpg
but has the emissions of a 50's era vehicle, many times that of a modern
vehicle, is this an acceptable goal?
Also noted, the noise of a large generator is deafening. Adding on an
automotive muffler may help, though not all the noise of a generator is
exhaust noise that can be remedied with a muffler.
It would require quite a large generator to maintain batteries for
continuous driving. The size of the generator used will affect the
scale the size of all these problems.
Danny
Death to All Spammers wrote:
he felt a better intermediate step would be to use a
diesel generator
to generate the required power for an electric car. The generator
would run
at
.7 gal per hour.
If you use the specs from Lombardini as typical
(http://www.lombardinigroup.it/starter.php?lang=2), lowest fuel use
averages 160gm/hp-hr air-cooled to 180gm/hp-hr water-cooled. Those
values are for larger (~400#) engines and get worse as you get
smaller, and that is before generator loses (and charging loses if you
intend to keep up the SOC, too).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys, this has nothing to do with EVs and not even with email subject.
Please stay focused.
Victor
Death to All Spammers wrote:
Chuck Norris died?
No, but there has been a string of Chuck Norris jokes online for a few
months - my son can rattle off quite a few, too bad he's not home to
recite some for me to transcribe. Yes, we are verging maddingly on the
edge of the OT abyss.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hate to be the one to bring up that silly word reality but can anyone one
this list document where any of these EVs have actually done 0 to 60 mph in
less than four seconds in other than a press release. I realize I am going
to piss off some CEOs by this post but please, let's keep it real here. Let
the gas boys do the BSing.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
to be along with Tesla EV.
It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well. That's 4
different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
jorg
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
X-1 did at Infineon (sp?) Raceway.
- Will
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
I hate to be the one to bring up that silly word reality but can anyone one
this list document where any of these EVs have actually done 0 to 60 mph in
less than four seconds in other than a press release. I realize I am going
to piss off some CEOs by this post but please, let's keep it real here. Let
the gas boys do the BSing.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
> On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
>> annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
>> September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
>> parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
>>
>>
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=943
01
>> See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
>>
>> The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
>> both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
>> to be along with Tesla EV.
>
>
> It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well. That's 4
> different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
>
> jorg
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
>
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I *have* to plug into an Avcon station
Mount the charger you have at home in your truck and then you can plug
it into available outlets?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess some peoples reality is a wee bit different than your's there
Rod :)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I hate to be the one to bring up that silly word reality but can
anyone one
> this list document where any of these EVs have actually done 0 to 60
mph in
> less than four seconds in other than a press release. I realize I am
going
> to piss off some CEOs by this post but please, let's keep it real
here. Let
> the gas boys do the BSing.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo
Alto
>
>
> > On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
> >> annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
> >> September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
> >> parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
> >>
> >>
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
> >> See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
> >>
> >> The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
> >> both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
> >> to be along with Tesla EV.
> >
> >
> > It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well.
That's 4
> > different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
> >
> > jorg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, that was that lame zero to 105mph run.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Will Beckett \(becketts\)"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> X-1 did at Infineon (sp?) Raceway.
>
>
> - Will
> Aptos, CA 95003
> (831) 688-8669
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roderick Wilde
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo
Alto
>
> I hate to be the one to bring up that silly word reality but can
anyone one
> this list document where any of these EVs have actually done 0 to 60
mph in
> less than four seconds in other than a press release. I realize I am
going
> to piss off some CEOs by this post but please, let's keep it real
here. Let
> the gas boys do the BSing.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo
Alto
>
>
> > On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
> >> annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
> >> September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
> >> parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
> >>
> >>
>
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=943
> 01
> >> See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
> >>
> >> The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
> >> both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
> >> to be along with Tesla EV.
> >
> >
> > It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well.
That's 4
> > different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
> >
> > jorg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You mean the less than 3% that have balancing ;)
Mike
>
> I suspect that balancing is used much more often on EVs with AGM
> battery packs. These are mostly 12v batteries. They tend to be more
> expensive and often have a short life without something to help keep
> them in line (the owner of such an EV learns quickly that he wants to
> keep them balanced :-) Even though golf cart battery powered EVs are
> more common EV sales are likely to lean toward 12v units.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW Rod, how exactly does someone document a 0-60 run? How would the
track timer know when you hit 60 mph?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I hate to be the one to bring up that silly word reality but can
anyone one
> this list document where any of these EVs have actually done 0 to 60
mph in
> less than four seconds in other than a press release. I realize I am
going
> to piss off some CEOs by this post but please, let's keep it real
here. Let
> the gas boys do the BSing.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo
Alto
>
>
> > On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >> A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
> >> annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
> >> September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
> >> parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
> >>
> >>
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
> >> See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
> >>
> >> The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
> >> both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
> >> to be along with Tesla EV.
> >
> >
> > It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well.
That's 4
> > different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
> >
> > jorg
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date:
9/22/2006
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can somebody get a NE555, capacitor and three resistors
plus a 12V power brick and give him a pilot tone?
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/gadgets/555/555.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo
Alto
> I *have* to plug into an Avcon station
Mount the charger you have at home in your truck and then you can plug
it into available outlets?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
>>
>>see http://physics.technion.ac.il/~rutman/range.htm for details.
>>the formula comes from real data of peoples evs on austinev.org
>>to get the kWh of you batt multiply the Ah by the V
>Jeremy
>It's great that you took the time and effort to collect and analyze this
>data, but I have my doubts about the accuracy of your conclusion.
you must mean precision, not accuracy.
>The range of data shown on your site ( km/kwh vs weight) is so spread out,
>that to say that the range is "given" by your formula is misleading. You
>could say that "usually, the range will be given by this formula within a
>factor of 3", and that would be a more defendable statement, since the width
>of the data band is roughly 10X.
If you look at the data, you'll see I just took the best fit and thus
is the most accurate given the data available.
Yes there's scatter, thats the real world talking to us and not theory.
Not all parameters are available and the whole point was to base conclusions
on real data.
>Even it the range of data was much tighter, I see a fundamental problem with
>basing any range predictions of the owner/builder's claim of range. You
>have to expect a wide range of honesty in the responses, as well as
>different interpretaions of "range".
There's no way to do it better I can see unless I go around testing people's
ev's myself or subject all ev owners to lie-detector tests under sodium amytal
influence.
While that would probably be a fun trip I just blew my travel cash on
getting to burning man and back. Since you're in the states I invite
you to do it. But make sure you bring an officially calibrated Ah meter.
>Is range based on 80% DOD, for example? Is this range in hilly terrain, or
>flat? With the car driven gently or agressively?
Its whatever people report on austinev as I mentioned.
>In any case, any prediction which does not account for the vehicle
>aerodynamics can never be very good. This may be part of the reason the data
>spread is so wide.
Yes I agree. Austinev doesnt provide free wind-tunnel testing so Cp is not
reported there. When you go on your testing spree you can take a portable
wind-tunnel. Make sure it is officially calibrated by NASA geeks.
>The "600 lb of batteries = 1 gallon of fuel" approximation does account for
>the aerodynamics of the car, since it's based on the original mileage of the
>ICE car. But, that formula fails to account for the size and efficiency of
>the original ICE engine, which will affect the original ICE car mileage but
>not the mileage as an EV.
>Also, since a good portion of the energy used in an EV ends up in tire
>losses, some consideration of the RR of the tires used ( at the pressure
>used, of course) would help also.
You'll have to bring a rolling-resistometer or 'rohllmeter' on your trip.
>So, I would guess, that an analysis and range prediction that:
>1. Accounted for battery energy ( at, for example, a one-hour rate)
>2. Accounted for vehicle weight.
>3. Accounted for vehicle aerodynamics ( Cd and frontal area)
>4. Accounted for tire rolling resistance coefficient.
>5. Was based on real test data ( range to a given SOC (eg. 80%DOD), and not
>reported anecdotal data.
>6. Accounted for regen.
>might be a useful predictor of range.
i would guess i agree. So what is it? That is, where's your formula
for useful prediction of range? I dont think I saw one in your post.
>Phil Marino
jeremy rutman
--- End Message ---
