EV Digest 5910
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Installation questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Installation questions
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) roll-down test
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Instrumentaion question
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Latest motor, compound motor, field layout. (Prestolite mods)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EV parts car on e-bay
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Installation questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Current Eliminator News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Installation questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Installation questions
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: article: Electric Harley
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Instrumentaion question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Diesel electric...
by "David O'Neel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It would be nice to get a hold of their design and the batteries they used.
This is probably a technology we can develop ourselves.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: September 23, 2006 11:49 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
David,
In case you are interested in how much Tesla addressed this issue, I invite
you to read up on the "Safety" page in their engineering section, it tells
me they did their homework:
http://www.teslamotors.com/engineering/safety.php
"Tesla Motors's engineers selected cells from a reputable Fortune 500
battery supplier that has produced billions of safe, reliable, Li-ion
batteries. We combined this basic proven cell technology with our own unique
battery pack design to provide multiple layers of protection. Our design
ensures that should any cell fail catastrophically, adjacent cells do not.
This is true regardless of whether or not the battery pack cooling system is
running. (The cooling system in the Energy Storage System exists to increase
the battery pack's life -- we don't depend on it for safety.)
We then collaborated with an outside firm known for expertise in lithium ion
battery safety to perform hundreds of tests to validate the safety of our
design.
In these tests, we set out to simulate a worst-case scenario in which a cell
develops a serious malfunction.
In each test, we set a cell on fire in the middle of a Tesla Motors battery
pack (by heating the heck out of it) and observed the results. Our design
contained these failures to a single cell, demonstrating that malfunctions
wouldn't spread."
Hope this clarifies why I do not feel very concerned.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
I wouldn't call 4.1 million a limited series? That's for Dell alone and
doesn't count the apple packs.
Did you read the articles that started this thread? It appears obvious that
you did not. You are also flat wrong that "Most Li-Ions die when they are
accidentally over-discharged", most problems happen in the opposite case,
over charging. These issues are not the cause of my concern; my concern is
defective cells that internally short.
I give up. If people aren't prepared to do the research but instead take
manufacture's claims, with zero proof, as reality it is a sad reflection on
the state of critical thinking. Just because it matches what you want to
believe doesn't make it true.
Do the research and you'll see a lot of Lithium cell issues. If it's just
the dodgy Sony cells, what about this IBM fire?
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/gizmodo-reader-witnesses-ibm-laptop-catch
-fire-at-lax-201115.php
What about the mobile phones issues as well?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,113980-page,1/article.html
Also check the CPSC website and you'll a lot of examples involving Lithium
cells.
Naturally Tesla knows about the risk of Lithium cells, but so did all Laptop
manufactures..... How much Tesla have done to combat this, we only have
Tesla's word about. If some of the worlds leading technology companies,
using much fewer cells have failed to address this, I think it is wise to be
cautious.
I'm actually shocked at the fan boy level of this list, there are legitimate
questions here - that much really is beyond debate and I've backed up my
concerns with verifiable information. To say these concerns are alarmist is
disingenuous, the alarm of the public will obviously come from seeing the
same cells Tesla uses exploding in consumer devices.
I personally am not prepared to dismiss this problem until the Teslas have
been in everyday use for a while. I would much prefer a Tesla with the
Phosphate based cells and I have personally tested the Emoli cells to
failure with a puncture test, over charging and a total short; I did this as
I'm using them in an Electric scooter.
Time will tell what happens, maybe Tesla will switch to a safer cell
chemistry sooner rather than later.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Saturday, 23 September 2006 3:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
Since Tesla also knows about the Li-Ion vulnerability to self-destruction,
could they have built a protection into their layered battery pack?
Maybe temp sensors on a real BMS?
Or made sure that they had the proper, not-contaminated materials in their
cells?
Most Li-Ions die when they are accidentally over-discharged so a good BMS
and this does not happen.
Anyway - DELL did not recall a single laptop.
Only a limited series of Sony-made batteries were recalled.
I have several DELL laptops around and even a stack of spare batteries, from
all kinds of dates.
None of the batteries I had were part of the recall.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:09 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
>> Puncture a stock laptop Li-Ion and it bursts in to flames.
>Good data point. You have done this, right? So it is not a myth?
Yes, I have done this and I've done it with Lithium Polymer cells as well.
You might be one of the few using Li-Pos in an EV but there are hobbies that
have been using them much much longer. There are videos around of these
tests. I'm sure there is one on the valance site even, I think they start
off shooting the cells with a bullet, that's a little extreme, however later
they show a simple laptop cell puncture test. Kaboom.
Here ya go: http://www.valence.com/SafetyVideo.asp
Now a polymer:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5800338&postcount=4
>> Two reasons why I have not ordered a Tesla, first they are left hand
>> drive but I would not buy a car using stock laptop cells.
>> All it takes is one of the 7000 cells to be faulty and, you will be
>> killed.
> Really? One cell faulty and you will be killed? This seems kind of
> extreme.
> You know this right, it is not one of those lithium myths you were
> talking about?
Stop being a dick. Yes, it's a bit hyperbolic but I am not going to risk it,
at best very badly burned. There is a small problem called thermal run-away
and you just can stop it once it reaches critical mass. There are numerous
videos around and I can assure you that others on this list are concerned
about the same issue with the Tesla.
>> BTW Do you drive a gas car? Is gasoline flammable or even worse,
>> explosive? (Oops. Sorry, that was a bit inflammatory<G>.)
This has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago. The evidence of
everyday life obviously bares this out easily. You are claiming that
Gasoline just spontaneously explodes from just sitting in the tank? That's
ridiculous. However, what we are seeing in everyday life is faulty laptop
cells spontaneously exploding:
http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257
.php
Dell has recalled a couple of million laptops recently due to faulty cells
that could have an internal short. Apple has done this twice and many more
companies as well. As you can see from the picture in that article, it's not
such a small fire and that is with 8 cells, now, imagine that with 7000.
These are Cobalt Oxide cells as Tesla is using. The laptops have a state of
the art BMS, didn't help as the issue was an internal cell short.
>> Hey Cliff, you were so lucky in that incident (although that cell
>> would have been toast, you caught that just in time.
> Sadly, it has happened more than once. I guess I must just be blessed
> with luck. Or maybe the cells are not prone to bursting into flames.
> This is what Kokam claims.
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_safety_02.html
Kokam still have the same problems with larger packs failing? Pity given
they cost a lot. Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles
pack life! Polymer based cells are safer than Ion but they are still metal
oxide based, so you have Lithium and an oxygen in the same little package.
Remember the fire triangle from school? All that is missing is heat. Not
hard to figure out is it? Hence when you discharged that cell after it
failed and it got warm why I stated you were lucky. Then again, having the
car filling with thick white smoke isn't exactly lucky either. I get the
distinct feeling that you haven't seen what can happen in a worse case
scenario when a cell fails.
But here's lots of evidence for you from the rc-world + videos.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209187
List of incidents starts at post 4. You'll see even from small RC packs
people have lost their house and also cars. These are all with the safer
Polymer packs (some being Kokams) and of course only from people that use
that one site. Some are human error, some are not.
Listen, I love the Tesla and I like where Lithium technology is going to but
I am worried that all it takes is one Tesla to have an issue and certain
vested interests will use this to demonise the EV as unsafe. In the first
run of Tesla's there is going to be 700,000 Cobalt based Li-Ion cells on the
road, what's the chance of just one being bad? I wish they would use the
phosphate based cells and I think it has to be a cost issue although one
mishap could cost them very dearly.
You might be one of the first to use Li-Po packs in an EV but I think you
made the mistake of thinking that nobody else has bothered working with
them. In RC we have been using them for several years and in fact if EV'ers
used some of that information, there would a lot less Thunder Power cells
sold to the EV crowd.
Yes, there are a lot of myths and guess work on this list; it is exactly the
same kind of information that was seen when Li-pos were first being used in
RC.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Storm,
The 1 inch conduit will be ok if you use only one 2/0 welding wire in it.
To install two 2/0 standard size welding cable, it will take 1-1/2 conduit.
If you use the new compact 600 volt rate 2/0 wire, then you can get two of
them in a 1=1/4 inch conduit.
There is two ratings of welding wire, the flexible leads that can be pull
along the ground which have a heaver insulation are normally rated for 300
volts. The other is a 600 volt rating that is use for the interconnects
inside a welder or used for conduit and chassis work and the new types have
thinner insulation then the older type of cable.
Make sure that the exhaust fans are all plastic type. No metal and metal
blades, the battery fumes will eat these right up, as they did with mine.
If there is any bare electrical connections or openings, I normally seal
these with a Lexan cauking.
It is best to coat your battery boxes with a epoxy coating. The epoxy paint
I used the first time, that I got from a paint store, where you mix two
parts together, did not last very long, it started to blister and the white
epoxy started to yellow which would not wipe off.
Later, I painted them with the epoxy kits that is used for recoating sinks
and tubs. These works great and after 6 years, they are still gleaming
white.
The reason for coating metal battery containers is to cut the electrical
conductance from the battery to the metal box, to the frame, which the frame
is grounded with the input Commercial power to a on-board battery charger.
It is best to install batteries in a non-conductive surface, as well as
your charger. The charger case is the only thing that is grounded, using a
isolated input power plug using a ground fault (GFIC) circuit breaker or
receptacle.
I have a GFIC circuit breaker built into the EV right after the input
receptacle. This allows me to able to plug into anybody else receptacles
that may not be GFIC rated.
If you do not have these isolating enclosures and/or GFIC install, you will
a the full charging voltage between any one battery terminal to the frame of
the EV if you are not using a isolating circuit. Just make sure when you
are charging the batteries, do not touch the batteries and the frame of the
vehicle.
I do not use any circuit breakers for my disconnects for my battery pack. I
used two safety contactors that cuts of the battery pack from the main
contactor and controller activated by the ignition key using a Square D
glass plug in relay that is terminal strip rail mounted.
I used a Bussman semi-conductor 400 amp buss bar bolt in fuse for my battery
pack. You can make your own fuse holder by installing two brass bolt
standoffs on a insulation board.
You can get this insulation board from a motor shop from a thin sheet up to
2 inches thick. I used a 1/2 board as a chassis plate for this fuse.
Drill two holes in the board and tap it for a brass bolt. Insert the bolt
from the back side so you have two bolts threads studs facing up. You can
mount the board to any surface by using round nylon tubes you can get from a
hardware store, so the board stands off from that surface, so the back side
head of the bolts do not touch the surface.
The brass bolt thread length should be long enough so when you bolt in your
fuse, the body of the fuse does not touch the chassis board. To get the
right height, just built up the bolt stud surface with brass nuts and than a
washer and lay your fuse on this raise standoff.
Leave enough room below the fuse pad, so you can get a open end wrench below
the fuse pad, so as to prevent the bolt to back off when you are only
tighten the nut above the fuse bar.
These safety contactors also are disconnected from the main contactor,
controller and motor, and dc-dc power units, while the batteries are being
charge. One time, I had arcing between the face of the motor commentator
and the shaft while it was charging, because of the tracking of the brush
dust.
I also took out one of the DC motor drives that runs my accessories, by
having one line connecting to the batteries at all times.
When the charging is done, the DC charger leads are also disconnected from
the batteries with a 2 pole 50 amp DC contactor. This prevent back feed to
the charger if you have REGEN circuits. My PFC charger capacitors would
charge up creating a long large snap if any one of the battery terminals
disconnects. This could blow you battery pack up with you happen to have a
lot of fumes.
I BLEW 10 CELLS WITH MY OLD CHARGER WHEN THEN HAPPENS.
I do not drill any drain holes in the bottom of the battery box, because my
battery box, is in the bed of my vehicle. If you have a clear opening to the
outside, it is advisable to coat the entire under side of the vehicle with
that spray on bed liner.
I do not wash down my batteries, meaning soaping them up with baking soda
and then hose them off to wash off the white residue that the baking soda
leaves.
For the last 30 years, I used Whitaker spray battery cleaner which goes on
clear. I than wipe the batteries down with paper towels, paper towels roll
up and tape to a wood paint stick, to get under all the connection links.
I lay my batteries in a 1/2 thick layer of baking soda, which this layer is
still powdery after 6 years. If you rinse off the batteries with a hose,
then you cannot use this method.
The only time I clean my batteries is when I water them every 4 months and
do a equalizing charge.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 6:28 AM
Subject: Installation questions
> I painted the 86 Suzuki Samurai yesterday which marks
> the turning point. I'm nearing the point where I can
> stop repairing and restoring an old car and start
> building an electric. I'd like to run several ideas by
> you folks with some experience before I do something
> dumb.
>
> I have 5 battery boxes made of 1/16" sheet steel
> installed under the floor of the cabin. One holds 4
> batteries, one holds one battery and 3 hold 2
> batteries each. (That should cure the tipiness!) The
> plan is to connect them with 1" PVC conduit since some
> of the wire will be inside the cabin and the rest
> exposed beneath the car.
>
> I located some computer slot 45 CFM squirrel cage fans
> which would seem to be ideal as exhaust fans while
> charging. One on each box venting under the car.
>
> I would like a manual disconnect for the battery pack.
> The two thoughts are a breaker or a way of pulling the
> fuse out of the fuseholder. Some seem to feel that the
> breaker is not a great idea (and they are expensive.)
> I have not been able to locate a fuseholder, and am
> wondering if it would create a connection problem-
> like extra resistance, heating or whatever. Perhaps
> there is a manual switch that will handle the
> amperage? I don't anticipate engaging or disengaging
> it under load unless there is an emergency. How big
> would a knife switch have to be to carry the 400 amps?
>
>
> After seeing the battery boxes in the car, I'm
> thinking I had better drill some drain holes in them.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:15 AM 9/24/2006, Roland Wiench wrote:
Make sure that the exhaust fans are all plastic type. No metal and metal
blades, the battery fumes will eat these right up, as they did with mine.
Couldn't you set it up as a positive pressure system? That way the
fans only see clean air, and the fumes blow out the other vent.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> You'll have to bring a rolling-resistometer or 'rohllmeter' on your
>>trip.
>Along these lines, can someone tell me how accurate a roll-down test
>is (if done both directions and averaged) and how to do one?
I think if you found two different known, long grades you could do it.
The terminal velocity would depend on the grade and from the
two different grades you could tease apart the aero factor from the
rolling resistance factor since they depend on grade differently.
You'd have to measure the grade somehow like with a level maybe. I dont know
about averaging, I dont see how you'd get the car to go up the hill unless you
wait until nighttime when the world is upside down.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I have some instrumentation questions. My conversion will be 144 volts
of flooded batteries powered by a Zilla 1k and I want to finalize my
ammeter plans. I had originally planned on getting an emeter for the
battery loop and purchased item SH2520 from EV Parts with the
description 500 amp 50 mv heavy duty shunt for 1000 amp E-Meters. I was
also going to put an analog gage in the motor loop.
The E-Meters (Link 10) were out of stock and they there were some
stories on the list of people frying them during installation so I
decided to cut costs on version 1.0 of the conversion did not get the
E-Meter.
Since the Zilla can be set to limit battery current, I will not monitor
that loop at this point, and install a shunt in the motor loop feeding
a analog gage. I purchased a 0-1000 amp gage and planned to use the
shunt I previously purchased for the emeter.
I think I have 2 problems.
1) given that my shunt is 500 amp 50 mv if I use the 1000 amp meter it
will register 2x true current.
2) While the Zilla is capable of putting out 1000 amps with my battery
limit set at 400 amps it may never get to 1000 amps of motor current
and even if it does 99% of my time will be spent well below 500 amps.
So for ease of reading I would want a gage in the range of my likely
amp draws. But then what happens in the short periods where motor loop
current spikes.
This is not a new situation (other than buying mismatching supplies
that is) so have others handle it.
Thanks,
John in Massachusetts
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since as far as I know non of the faster EVs out there have been
independently tested by any of the major automotive magazines. I therefore
would not be able to research this for you Lawrence. O to 60 mph times can
not be obtained from going to a drag strip. The equipment must be on board
the vehicle. If you are concerned about acceleration for entering the
freeway the quarter mile times will give you some idea. Look at the ETs for
similar gas cars and look up their 0 to 60 mph times and realize that an EV
most likely will be a bit quicker as EVs get most of their acceleration in
the first half of the track. Mike Phillips asked me how I verified my 0 to
60 mph time. I have absolutely no idea what he is talking about. As to my
recollection I have never posted a 0 to 60 mph time for any of my vehicles.
If you want to get a fairly accurate 0 to 60 mph time you can purchase a
fairly inexpensive G-Tech Pro accelerometer from Tesla Electronics, Inc.
http://www.gtechpro.com/ They claim an accuracy better than the $5000.00
VBOX in the 0 to 60 mph range.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:27 AM
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
While you're at it Rod would you mind mentioning just what the 0 to 60
times
for some of the faster EV's is? We always get the 60 foot time or the
quarter time but that's pretty useless to the average driver that wants to
get on the freeway. 0 to 60 is what I'm concerned about. I would really
like to see the X1 or Tzero vs. Zombie. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
I hate to be the one to bring up that silly word reality but can anyone
one
this list document where any of these EVs have actually done 0 to 60 mph
in
less than four seconds in other than a press release. I realize I am
going
to piss off some CEOs by this post but please, let's keep it real here.
Let
the gas boys do the BSing.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
> On 9/12/06, bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> A reminder to make a note on your calendars to attend the 34th
>> annual Silicon Valley EAA Chapter Rally being held Saturday
>> September 30th from 10am to 4pm in the Palo Alto High School front
>> parking lot (across from Stanford U.). Map:
>>
>>
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?addr=el+camino+real+at+embarcadero&csz=94301
>> See their web site for details http://eaasv.org
>>
>> The Chapter's President mentioned that they are working on having
>> both the Tango EV as well as AC Propulsion's vehicle at the Rally
>> to be along with Tesla EV.
>
>
> It looks the Wrightspeed X-1 might be able to make it as well. That's
> 4
> different EVs that go 0-60 in 4 seconds or less!
>
> jorg
>
>
>
>
> --
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey James
Well haven't you been the busy little "down under" beaver 8^)
I don't have a lot of time this morning (and I'd like to see some pics) but I
thought I'd through some thoughts your way.
I would have probably tapped and heli-coiled the OEM brush ring mounting
holes, so that when you added the spacer / locking nut to the through bolt it
would prevent it from loosening up when you loosen / tighten the outer lock
down nuts.
Moving on to the Fusa Fab stuff. I don't apply the Fusa Fab untill after I
silver solder my connections, which keeps it from flaming up when the high heat
is applied 8^) although it can make it harder to wrap up if things are now in
the way, so to speak.
Okay now onto the area that I wanted to address before anything bad happens.
Are you removing the old wrap, or wrapping over the old with the Fusa Fab? If
removing the old wrap be really careful of the small shunt wires that are
there. If you get to forceful you can cut right through them and cause an
open. The other issue will be it'll tend to unwind as you work. I make a
drawing of how they are wired and clip them in two so they are easier to wrap.
I'd replace the wire that bridges them together and to their terminals (these
can be just plain solder connected). Use the Fusa Fab (or tape) in small one
wrap bands to keep the shunt together as you remove the old wrap I'll usually
do four bandings, top, bottom, and both sides. When wrapping the coil and you
get to where the leads on the coil plumb out make sure to crisscross that area
with an over the lead and then under the lead and then back over the lead
before continuing back under. This will make sure you
don't have a gap in the wrap. Add a piece of tape or wrap of Fusa Fab under
the wire where it will cross over from the inner wind to the outer area to keep
it from shorting against the other wires before wrapping it.
If you have any Nomex left add a disk of it behind the ring for that added
insulation you wanted.
Anyway thats about what I have without pics, but it sounds like you got it
going on! Get those pics up so I can rip on you properly though K 8^ P and
quit wasting the Fusa Fab, hehehe.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
G'day All - Esp. Jim
OK, I've been working on the brush gear, this is how far I've got (photos
to go up soon, but not yet):
Adjustment mods:
The bolt recess allows for 15 degrees of rotation, assumed to be + or - 7.5
degrees from neutral. My motor was over one side, so I've drilled another
set of holes 15 degrees away near the other edges of the recesses, so now I
can move the CE plate from +7.5 degrees to -7.5 degrees, chosen depending
on the direction of rotation I end up with.
The bolt holes for the brush holder mounting ring have been machined into
15 degree long arcs, + and -7.5 degrees from where they are originally.
This allows the brushes to be rotated from neutral to +15 degrees of
advance for either rotation.
On the inside of the motor, the face behind the brush holder mounting ring
has been machined flat from the curve where the casting becomes the bearing
boss to the curve of the outer edge, and recessed about 1/16 of an inch. To
fit this recess, a brass ring about 1/8" thick has been machined, holes
drilled to match the original bolt holes.
On the outside, the face has been machined enough to 'clean up' the
casting, plus a shallow recess around the bolt holes. A second brass ring
about 9/16" wide fits this recess, again with bolt holes to match the
originals. [on the outside boss of both ends I also added a marker groove
so if I need to bolt on an accessory (tach pickup, etc) I've already got a
position marker]
4 bolts go into the bolt holes in the brusholder mounting ring, long enough
to go right through the back assembly. These have nuts placed to hold them
into the brush holder ring, and space the brush holder ring from the brass
ring to clear the brusholder rivets. the bolts go through the inner ring,
the arced slots in the CE plate, and the holes in the outer ring, and then
nuts go on. This way the outer nuts can be loosened, and by turning the
bolts on the outside of the CE plate, the brushes can be moved. I could
also have (probably would have been better to) used spacers between the
brush holder mounting plate and the adjuster ring, and tapped the holes in
the adjuster ring, but it was easiest for me to do it the way I did.
I will make an insulation plate to go in the space behind the brush holder
ring, to increase the insulation strength.
Wiring mods:
The series field is wired to terminals where the original terminals were
installed. About 1" further along the body tube from each series field
terminal I've drilled a 3/8" hole and made some insulators to take the
3/16" brass bolts for the shunt field. On the CE plate there is a section
of casting alongside the mounting bolt locations that is wide enough to
accept the 9/16" holes for the armature terminals.
I've made copper buss bars to cross link the brush holders, one goes close
to the CE plate, one close to the fields, in order to miss the brushes.
These are wrapped along most of their length with Fusa-fab insulation tape,
hardened on with a hot air gun (where it wasn't already hardened from the
heat of silver-soldering the ends to the brush holders). I had to
silver-solder these to the brush holders, as the brush holders have no
brush tail terminals. Off each cross bar there is a short tail of the buss
bar to bolt a flexible tail onto, to go to new terminals in the side of the
CE plate.
The series fields I have re-wrapped in fusa-fab tape, and I'll be doing the
same with the shunt fields, but adding a thermocouple into one of the shunt
fields as I do it. (Jim, I've used up one of the two rolls of Fusa Fab you
sent me).
So far completed:
Bead blasting almost all of it, priming the body tube, priming the pole
shoes except for the backs where they are against the body tube. Clean up
the armature and a spray of lacquer, clean up comm. obtain new bearings.
Reinstall series fields into body tube. machine DE and CE plates to clean
up the castings and CE plate mods.
Yet to be completed:
Re-wrap shunt fields and install thermocouple, reinstall into body tube.
Reassemble and check brush holder position. Make and fit insulation under
brush holder mounting plate. final assembly.
If I get keen I may be adding an external blower, we'll see.
To be continued...
Regards
[Technik] James
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1981 Electric VW Rabbit EV 9 inch motor Curtis Zivan Item number: 250031078621
I offered $1500 when he listed it at $2k, but he didn't take it. Now down to
$1750, I offered $1500 again. Honestly, it isn't worth more than $1k by the
time I'd get it here and strip it. It does have a 9" motor, 96 V charger and
Curtis 400 A controller with pot box. Also, 8 batteries to trade in at $3/ea
and some 2/0 wire. I'm still not seeing $1750 worth of parts ... The chasis
from the description and pictures isn't worth repairing.
Any of you want to get in on it at $1750?
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
> I located some computer slot 45 CFM squirrel cage fans
> which would seem to be ideal as exhaust fans while
> charging. One on each box venting under the car.
Just a thought, but you'd probably want to set it up so the fans blow INTO
the boxes instead of out. If they blow out, then they will be sucking up
fumes from charging, which can include some acid vapour and free hydrogen.
The acid vapor isn't good for long term survivability of the fans, and if
the fans ever generate a spark, that might be bad with hydrogen and oxygen
floating around.
> I would like a manual disconnect for the battery pack.
> The two thoughts are a breaker or a way of pulling the
> fuse out of the fuseholder.
Well you need a breaker and/or fuse anyway, so I'd go with the breaker.
A fuse is a nice added extra since they will blow quicker if a serious
overload happens and the fuse and fuse holder should only add negligible
resistance. The breakers and fuses are available from any of the EV parts
places. You can also get them on eBay sometimes, but you need to be
careful with what you get there. The specs for a good EV breaker are
quite a bit different from your garden variety breaker.
AS an added benifit, if you mount the breaker so it can be activated from
the drivers seat, then you can manually disconnect power if you get into
an emergency runaway situation.
I.e. motor controllers for series wound motors can fail full throttle, if
this happens there are only a few options for stopping the car:
1) run into something, kinda hard on the vehicle.
2) disconnect the motor from the wheels (use the clutch), bye-bye motor.
3) disconnect power from the controller (use the breaker), least damaging
alternative.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The CE went out in the 1st round last night in the NHRA Summit series #7
race.I had the worst reaction time loss of the season a .070.The previous bad
light in Summit action back in march a .027.Then # 2 an 3 in the rankings went
all
the way to the finish.My friend Mike Zimmerman Won at 3am.
I am now ranked # 2
or 3 but the good news I am still in the race of champions in Bakersfield.There
are about 80 out of at least 2000 that are qualified.Its the playoffs and the
field is level again.The CE is the 1st alt.vech.to ever race the NHRAs ROC.
Dennis Berube I wish to thank all the folks that came out to support
me.
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I did test it out in a positive pressure. The fumes would leak out of the
battery box, even though it was double seal. This was dangerous, because
the fumes got into the battery charger, and I dare not to turn any thing off
except for turning the ampere way down but not off, which would cause a
contact spark.
I than install a totally enclose fan on the exhaust sides with a filter
intake coming in from one side of the EV and existing out a exhaust type pvc
heavy 1/4 pipe (do not use that light flexible hose, it eat that up too)
I then connect a exhaust type rubber hose on to this pvc pipe and run it
through or under my garage door to the outside.
The battery charger compartment uses a positive pressure to bring in cool
air for the charger and exists 5 feet away from any air exhaust or input
outlets.
This has work this way since 1985 since I did this mod.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:26 AM
Subject: Re: Installation questions
> At 07:15 AM 9/24/2006, Roland Wiench wrote:
> >Make sure that the exhaust fans are all plastic type. No metal and metal
> >blades, the battery fumes will eat these right up, as they did with
> >mine.
>
> Couldn't you set it up as a positive pressure system? That way the
> fans only see clean air, and the fumes blow out the other vent.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
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You don't have washer/drier hookups?
Electrical drier outlets are all 240V, ditto on electrical stove outlets.
Not trying to quash your exercise regime, just thought you might like a
winter-time option.
> It probably does have 240V somewhere on it, I just haven't got any
> outlets, and not being the kind of Joe Sixpack comfortable with
> playing in the breaker box, it's a matter of convenience vs money! It
> may seem odd that I'd rather walk than pay an electrician, but hey, I
> need the exercise and I *am* a cheapskate!
>
>
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
they also blow out any cracks in the box and you won't be sure exactly where
those leaks will be
not a good idea
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: Re: Installation questions
At 07:15 AM 9/24/2006, Roland Wiench wrote:
Make sure that the exhaust fans are all plastic type. No metal and metal
blades, the battery fumes will eat these right up, as they did with mine.
Couldn't you set it up as a positive pressure system? That way the fans
only see clean air, and the fumes blow out the other vent.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
No, Ralph knew that I wasnt talking about Karl Vogel's
Electracruiser and before it comes up Myers motors'
cycle. But, thank you.
--- Mike Willmon wrote:
> isn't it this one?
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/392
>
Ralph wrote:
No- What I found interesting was that Harley had
actually built such a
prototype! I'm not a Harley fan so despite it being
electric, I gave it
only passing interest.
-Ralph
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
lyle sloan wrote:
> Do you have anymore info on this bike and perhaps a
> photo?
>
> Lyle
> --- Ralph wrote:
>
> > Harley actually built an electric cycle back in
the
> > 70s. I saw one (the same one) at the Farmington,
MN
> > antique motorbike rally and then later the same
year
> > at the Davenport antique rally- about 8 years ago
or
> > so.
> >
> > -Ralph
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
In installing the Link-10 meter, you have to follow the directions exactly
as listed.
You install wires No. 1 to No. 8 in that exact order at the meter.
Then you than install wires No. 1 to No.8 at the other end in that exact
order too.
To power up, you must close a fast acting 12 volt switch first and than a
battery pack fast acting switch. You can do this is you have a fuse holder
that holds the fuse and quickly install it with no pulse in your motion. I
use switches.
The Zilla already has a circuit built into it so you can read the motor
ampere on a standard tachometer. This is what I do. The tach is a large 4
inch diameter which is right in front of me, which I think is the most
important instrument in the EV.
If you look in the Zilla manual, and in the option menu on page 13, look at
flag k) Amps on Tach
For reading Amps on the Tachometer, turn off a) and turn on k) in the
options menu. You do not need a speed sensor for this.
To revert back to a Tachometer only, turn on a) and turn off k)
Install a wire from Pin #11 on the hairball to the tachometer input and now
you have you motor amp meter.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Instrumentaion question
> All,
>
> I have some instrumentation questions. My conversion will be 144 volts
> of flooded batteries powered by a Zilla 1k and I want to finalize my
> ammeter plans. I had originally planned on getting an emeter for the
> battery loop and purchased item SH2520 from EV Parts with the
> description 500 amp 50 mv heavy duty shunt for 1000 amp E-Meters. I was
> also going to put an analog gage in the motor loop.
>
> The E-Meters (Link 10) were out of stock and they there were some
> stories on the list of people frying them during installation so I
> decided to cut costs on version 1.0 of the conversion did not get the
> E-Meter.
>
> Since the Zilla can be set to limit battery current, I will not monitor
> that loop at this point, and install a shunt in the motor loop feeding
> a analog gage. I purchased a 0-1000 amp gage and planned to use the
> shunt I previously purchased for the emeter.
>
> I think I have 2 problems.
>
> 1) given that my shunt is 500 amp 50 mv if I use the 1000 amp meter it
> will register 2x true current.
> 2) While the Zilla is capable of putting out 1000 amps with my battery
> limit set at 400 amps it may never get to 1000 amps of motor current
> and even if it does 99% of my time will be spent well below 500 amps.
> So for ease of reading I would want a gage in the range of my likely
> amp draws. But then what happens in the short periods where motor loop
> current spikes.
>
> This is not a new situation (other than buying mismatching supplies
> that is) so have others handle it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> John in Massachusetts
>
>
>
>
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I believe the term is 'serial hybrid' where a combustion engine is used
solely to produce electricity for traction motors. I know this has been beat
to death recently, but I stayed out of it. I tend to agree that for small
applications it is probably not affordable, but not impossible. But also, it
is better for city driving than for highway speeds because of the lower
demands. A small gas/diesel engine just cant put out the power needed to run
a 5000lb EV at 70mph.
I don't have the particulars, but the idea seems to work for these folks:
http://www.e-traction.com/the_whisper.htm
http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-truck-hemtt.html
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html
And one of my favorites, a VW diesel pusher trailer, if only it didnt look
so odd:
http://www.mrsharkey.com/pusher.htm
Dave O.
On 9/23/06, Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The idea has come up many times. As noted, one issue is that the mpg
may not be all that remarkable, it can be worse than the original
vehicle's engine.
There are several other questions. Generators are rarely designed for
emissions, lacking a fuel injection system, sensors, and a catalytic
converter. I assume there are generators made with these features but
if so they are not cheap, stock items. If the design saves a few mpg
but has the emissions of a 50's era vehicle, many times that of a modern
vehicle, is this an acceptable goal?
Also noted, the noise of a large generator is deafening. Adding on an
automotive muffler may help, though not all the noise of a generator is
exhaust noise that can be remedied with a muffler.
It would require quite a large generator to maintain batteries for
continuous driving. The size of the generator used will affect the
scale the size of all these problems.
Danny
Death to All Spammers wrote:
>>he felt a better intermediate step would be to use a
>>diesel generator
>>to generate the required power for an electric car. The generator
>>
>>
>would run
>
>
>>at
>>.7 gal per hour.
>>
>>
>>
>If you use the specs from Lombardini as typical
>(http://www.lombardinigroup.it/starter.php?lang=2), lowest fuel use
>averages 160gm/hp-hr air-cooled to 180gm/hp-hr water-cooled. Those
>values are for larger (~400#) engines and get worse as you get
>smaller, and that is before generator loses (and charging loses if you
>intend to keep up the SOC, too).
>
>
>
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