EV Digest 5912
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Mini-Cooper conversion
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Instrumentaion question
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Charging AGMs for Max life
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) overloading shunt ammeter gage combo
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) 240V charging, was EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Instrumentaion question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: roll-down test
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: Robot lawn mower
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charging AGMs for Max life
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) BB600 Greentop status and first watering.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Roll-down test
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Dateline EV Episode direct download
by "Dean Thompson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: overloading shunt ammeter gage combo
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Matt's got his EV grin!
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Roll-down test
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Matt's got his EV grin!
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Robot lawn mower
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Matt's got his EV grin!
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV parts car on e-bay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: distance formula
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't seen this one mentioned previously. Granted, it looks like the
interior is filled with batts, etc, but a Mini doesn't have a lot of room
elsewhere.
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_mini.html
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/mini2.html
But they do have specs that can be downloaded. For the advocates, I notice
they used Li batts, ultra capacitors and an onboard generator to carry it
beyond its initial 4 hours. Oh... and it can be plugged in, if desired. It
was built to prove hub motors & w/ one at each corner, it sounds remarkably
quick... 0-60 in 5 seconds, double that for top speed, and 1000 km range w/o
charging??? If 625 miles isn't enough distance w/o plugging in, kick in the
onboard charger & get 60-85MPG, per the specs.
That's one way to stuff > 400 BHP into a Mini.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the emeter tips. I'll be sure to follow them if I decide to
get a link10/emeter in the future.
I took another look at the Zilla manual and I see the functionality you
are referring to. What kind of information it coming out of pin #11?
Milivolts?, Ohms? How does this work with a single line going to the
Tach?
The manual says it outputs motor amps multiplied by 10
On Sunday, September 24, 2006, at 12:21 PM, Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello John,
In installing the Link-10 meter, you have to follow the directions
exactly
as listed.
You install wires No. 1 to No. 8 in that exact order at the meter.
Then you than install wires No. 1 to No.8 at the other end in that
exact
order too.
To power up, you must close a fast acting 12 volt switch first and
than a
battery pack fast acting switch. You can do this is you have a fuse
holder
that holds the fuse and quickly install it with no pulse in your
motion. I
use switches.
The Zilla already has a circuit built into it so you can read the motor
ampere on a standard tachometer. This is what I do. The tach is a
large 4
inch diameter which is right in front of me, which I think is the most
important instrument in the EV.
If you look in the Zilla manual, and in the option menu on page 13,
look at
flag k) Amps on Tach
For reading Amps on the Tachometer, turn off a) and turn on k) in the
options menu. You do not need a speed sensor for this.
To revert back to a Tachometer only, turn on a) and turn off k)
Install a wire from Pin #11 on the hairball to the tachometer input
and now
you have you motor amp meter.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:30 AM
Subject: Instrumentaion question
All,
I have some instrumentation questions. My conversion will be 144 volts
of flooded batteries powered by a Zilla 1k and I want to finalize my
ammeter plans. I had originally planned on getting an emeter for the
battery loop and purchased item SH2520 from EV Parts with the
description 500 amp 50 mv heavy duty shunt for 1000 amp E-Meters. I
was
also going to put an analog gage in the motor loop.
The E-Meters (Link 10) were out of stock and they there were some
stories on the list of people frying them during installation so I
decided to cut costs on version 1.0 of the conversion did not get the
E-Meter.
Since the Zilla can be set to limit battery current, I will not
monitor
that loop at this point, and install a shunt in the motor loop feeding
a analog gage. I purchased a 0-1000 amp gage and planned to use the
shunt I previously purchased for the emeter.
I think I have 2 problems.
1) given that my shunt is 500 amp 50 mv if I use the 1000 amp meter it
will register 2x true current.
2) While the Zilla is capable of putting out 1000 amps with my battery
limit set at 400 amps it may never get to 1000 amps of motor current
and even if it does 99% of my time will be spent well below 500 amps.
So for ease of reading I would want a gage in the range of my likely
amp draws. But then what happens in the short periods where motor loop
current spikes.
This is not a new situation (other than buying mismatching supplies
that is) so have others handle it.
Thanks,
John in Massachusetts
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
Have you counted or estimated how many cycles you have on the remaining
batteries? 500 cycles per year? And you use them almost all the way on each
cycle?
For the roving charger, I think it would be cheapest if I switch the 120VAC
input off before changing contacts to another battery. In your case you
would be powering it from a your 120V pack? Probably still cheapest to
switch the input off, but a pain maybe if you are doing it manually.
- John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of steve clunn
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 11:27 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charging AGMs for Max life
Hi John ,,, I've talked about my lawn mower with uses 8 12v orbitals , and
dump charge from my EV 120v truck , . I have used excide orbitals in cars
before , but had never looked at them like I do with the lawn mower . 90% of
the charging on them has started at over 200 amps . 90% of the time they are
charged in 10 minutes . Many days this summer they got charged 10 time .
What I'm seeing now as the batteries are getting older ( I've pulled 2
stinkers out , which both had had there bolt's melted off , before going to
automotive post clamps) is that they fall out of balance after sitting a
day of two , even in the morning the first yard is for getting the batteries
warmed up . I have a 10 position switch watch I have set up so I can look at
each battery voltage . Each charge seems to bring them closer , buy the end
of the day they are all working as a team with all voltages very close .
I'm going to add a roving 15v charger like you talked about to help keep
them balanced . The one problem with a beefy 15v charger is that what ever
you use to switch it from battery to battery will have to handle the hi
charging amperage. .... so 50 amps on a 100 ah battery , is that hi. :-)
...you'd need 500 amps to do the same 5c ( or is it c5) 250 amp on a 50 ah
, .
ot
The other day I got a call from what I will call my worst customers, They
hadn't called in 6 weeks and I knew the grass would be very high, I did the
usual wine " when the grass gets to hi ,,,," so with the promos of extra
money, my camera , new belt and new sharp blades I'm off. I get there and
the grass is 4 feet tall easy " I'm so sorry I ment to call you , it just
grow over night " . This was the tallest , grass I've ever cut and if I
still had my gas mower , it would have been a long job. I turned the Curtis
up ( but still not close to all the way ) and the 8 in net gain sounded like
a air plane and drove straight through it , like a hot knife through warm
butter. Its a short clip , with no sound , ( cheep camera) , where on the
web could I put this . ?
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <
> if I rotate thru the pack charging each for a minute or so at 40-50A?
>
> Thinking of one or two dumb & beefy 15V power supplies roving the pack
> under
> control of a Lee Hart Balancer type of module.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
> John Foster
> "If it ain't broke, keep it away from me."
I like that one . :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What happens it you intermittently "over load" a shunt with an ammeter
gage connected.
For example a 500amp 50mv shunt and spikes of 800 amps or more are sent
through the circuit? Would this damage a gage that reads 500 amps at
50mv drop?
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com already
released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars. Should get
over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with increased battery
weight.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
What kind of power output?
How about on the battery front?
How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
energy storage devices?
Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
actually being released?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Extension cords for 240v look exactly like the ones for 120v -- just
> different connectors so you can't plug them into the wrong outlets. The
> size of the wire doesn't change with voltage, since a 240v outlet has
> exactly the same voltage with respect to neutral and ground as a 120v
> outlet -- there are just two "hot" wires instead of one.
>
> The size of the wire actually depends on the current rating; not the
> voltage. A 15-amp cord will use #14 wire, 20-amp is #12, 25-amp is #10,
> and a 30-amp cord will use #8 wire. If the cord is especially long, the
> wire size can be increased (lower numerical #) to reduce the voltage
drop.
>
It was the amps I was considering - the Ranger charger requires 30A
for peak safety, but usually only uses ~22A. Something about feeding a
30-40ft cord with #8 or maybe #6 wire out a window seems unwise.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You connect up three wires to a tach. A -12 volts, a +12 volts from the
ignition circuit and from pin # 11 from the hairball. I never put a scope
or meter on it.
If my tach works on ignition points that is switching 12 volt negative, it
must be in that range.
The 10X means when the tach reads 1000 rpm the ampere is 100 amps. My
Stewart Warner tach is label 1 to 10 which means 1000 to 10000 rpm use as a
tach or 100 to 1000 amps if use as a amp meter.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: Instrumentaion question
> Thanks for the emeter tips. I'll be sure to follow them if I decide to
> get a link10/emeter in the future.
>
> I took another look at the Zilla manual and I see the functionality you
> are referring to. What kind of information it coming out of pin #11?
> Milivolts?, Ohms? How does this work with a single line going to the
> Tach?
>
>
>
> The manual says it outputs motor amps multiplied by 10
> On Sunday, September 24, 2006, at 12:21 PM, Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Hello John,
> >
> > In installing the Link-10 meter, you have to follow the directions
> > exactly
> > as listed.
> >
> > You install wires No. 1 to No. 8 in that exact order at the meter.
> >
> > Then you than install wires No. 1 to No.8 at the other end in that
> > exact
> > order too.
> >
> > To power up, you must close a fast acting 12 volt switch first and
> > than a
> > battery pack fast acting switch. You can do this is you have a fuse
> > holder
> > that holds the fuse and quickly install it with no pulse in your
> > motion. I
> > use switches.
> >
> > The Zilla already has a circuit built into it so you can read the motor
> > ampere on a standard tachometer. This is what I do. The tach is a
> > large 4
> > inch diameter which is right in front of me, which I think is the most
> > important instrument in the EV.
> >
> > If you look in the Zilla manual, and in the option menu on page 13,
> > look at
> > flag k) Amps on Tach
> >
> > For reading Amps on the Tachometer, turn off a) and turn on k) in the
> > options menu. You do not need a speed sensor for this.
> >
> > To revert back to a Tachometer only, turn on a) and turn off k)
> >
> > Install a wire from Pin #11 on the hairball to the tachometer input
> > and now
> > you have you motor amp meter.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:30 AM
> > Subject: Instrumentaion question
> >
> >
> >> All,
> >>
> >> I have some instrumentation questions. My conversion will be 144 volts
> >> of flooded batteries powered by a Zilla 1k and I want to finalize my
> >> ammeter plans. I had originally planned on getting an emeter for the
> >> battery loop and purchased item SH2520 from EV Parts with the
> >> description 500 amp 50 mv heavy duty shunt for 1000 amp E-Meters. I
> >> was
> >> also going to put an analog gage in the motor loop.
> >>
> >> The E-Meters (Link 10) were out of stock and they there were some
> >> stories on the list of people frying them during installation so I
> >> decided to cut costs on version 1.0 of the conversion did not get the
> >> E-Meter.
> >>
> >> Since the Zilla can be set to limit battery current, I will not
> >> monitor
> >> that loop at this point, and install a shunt in the motor loop feeding
> >> a analog gage. I purchased a 0-1000 amp gage and planned to use the
> >> shunt I previously purchased for the emeter.
> >>
> >> I think I have 2 problems.
> >>
> >> 1) given that my shunt is 500 amp 50 mv if I use the 1000 amp meter it
> >> will register 2x true current.
> >> 2) While the Zilla is capable of putting out 1000 amps with my battery
> >> limit set at 400 amps it may never get to 1000 amps of motor current
> >> and even if it does 99% of my time will be spent well below 500 amps.
> >> So for ease of reading I would want a gage in the range of my likely
> >> amp draws. But then what happens in the short periods where motor loop
> >> current spikes.
> >>
> >> This is not a new situation (other than buying mismatching supplies
> >> that is) so have others handle it.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> John in Massachusetts
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know about Tesla's cells, but some Lithium batteries have a
material that goes high resistance when it gets hot. If theirs have
this, I can see how such a battery could pass a fire test.
What about a wreck that would suddenly crush or puncture a number of
cells? Generally, in a car, I'd think it is more important that
things survive impact rather than survive fire. Would a lithium fire
risk in a car be comparable to a gasoline fire?
Quoted anonymously:
> http://www.teslamotors.com/engineering/safety.php
> "Tesla Motors's engineers selected cells from a reputable
> Fortune 500 battery supplier that has produced billions of
> safe, reliable, Li-ion batteries. We combined this basic
> proven cell technology with our own unique battery pack
> design to provide multiple layers of protection. Our
> design ensures that should any cell fail catastrophically,
> adjacent cells do not. This is true regardless of whether
> or not the battery pack cooling system is running. (The
> cooling system in the Energy Storage System exists to
> increase the battery pack's life -- we don't depend on it
> for safety.)
>
> We then collaborated with an outside firm known for
> expertise in lithium ion battery safety to perform
> hundreds of tests to validate the safety of our design.
> In these tests, we set out to simulate a worst-case
> scenario in which a cell develops a serious malfunction.
> In each test, we set a cell on fire in the middle of a
> Tesla Motors battery pack (by heating the heck out of it)
> and observed the results. Our design contained these
> failures to a single cell, demonstrating that
> malfunctions wouldn't spread."
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> I think if you found two different known, long grades you could do it.
>> The terminal velocity would depend on the grade and from the
>> two different grades you could tease apart the aero factor from the
>> rolling resistance factor since they depend on grade differently.
>> You'd have to measure the grade somehow like with a level maybe. I
>>dont know
>> about averaging, I dont see how you'd get the car to go up the hill
>>unless you
>> wait until nighttime when the world is upside down.
>You have the wrong idea of a "roll down" - it's not downhill, it's
>done on as flat a road as possible and involves bringing the vehicle
>up to a certain speed and letting it 'roll down', measure speed and
>time (and maybe distance?) and calculate drag (rolling and aero) from
>the numbers - again, I don't know the specifics or how accurate it is,
>but I'd like to be able to guage the affect of changes I make.
i dug up my old copy of 'so you want to build an hpv' , they do a
constant-slope terminal-velocity test at two grades to find CpA and RR. If you
want to do a flat road roll-to-zero test I think you'd need to find the
velocity
at a couple points not just start and finish - you need a way to
distinguish the CpA from the RR. A given rolldown time could come from a lot
of RR and a little CpA or vice versa but another datapoint or two would fix
the shape of the velocity as function of time curve, from which you could get
the answers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I had the impression that 13.5V was a good standby/float voltage
for 12V AGMs?
If you want to lower the charging voltage - with one diode you
will bring it down to 14.4 / 13.2 per battery.
That may void the warranty though, so you may want to do that
after the warranty is over (1 year?)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 7:04 PM
To: EV list
Subject: Robot lawn mower
Steve Clunn's post on his EV lawn mower prompted me to mention a new EV
at my place. I got a Friendly Robotics RL850 RoboMower.
First impressions: It's a neat toy. The neighbors are more impressed by
it than my other EVs. It's very quiet, but slow. Does a good job on
large rectangular parts of the yard with no obstacles, but misses many
spots when there are obstacles (trees etc.) or narrow, awkward shapes.
It's difficult to use by hand to touch up the spots it misses. Burying
the "electronic fence" wire that keeps it in your yard is a royal pain.
Quality seems OK, but many parts have an overly-cheap toylike feel.
Now for the EV related content: The battery pack is a rectangular box
that has a nice handle and just drops in the top. It contains two 12v
13ah AGM batteries, wired in series with a 30amp fuse. They look exactly
like Hawkers, but have "MK Battery" stickers.
It comes with the usual consumer-grade charger; just a cheap
transformer-rectifier, rated 32vdc, 900ma. But there is a regulator
inside the mower itself that charges at 800ma constant current until
29.5v, then it switches to a constant 27.0v forever.
That's likely to kill the batteries from slow overcharging in a couple
years. Normally, I'd just leave a charger like this unplugged once it is
fully charged and not in use. But the RoboMower has a beeper that
complains if you don't keep it plugged in. Its electronics also draws
27-110ma when not on charge, so it would kill the battery if it sat
idle. The only alternative is to physically remove the battery. I
haven't figured out yet if this causes it to forget important information.
The manual is typical; almost nothing but legalistic safety warnings and
and dumbed-down descriptions that say almost nothing. You won't learn
anything from it about how it works.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells at
much less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells)
for 9Ah, the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are
roughly half the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell me
not to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price
is about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of them
if they perform as advertised.
Jack
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars.
Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
increased battery weight.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
What kind of power output?
How about on the battery front?
How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
energy storage devices?
Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
actually being released?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster"
Have you counted or estimated how many cycles you have on the remaining
batteries?
a few months ago I counted up how may yards I'd done on the new batteries ,
it was about 400 then , so I'm sure I'm over 800 now . most of my yards take
about 10 to 15 ah to cut , . Then I have some big ones that take 3 charges
to cut
500 cycles per year?
I havn't gone through a year , but I'm sure more that that , probable
between 1000 and 1500 .
And you use them almost all the way on each
cycle?
no , somtimes I got to get that last little bit , but most of the time I
stop when the lowest battery hits 11v while under load , about 75 amps
For the roving charger, I think it would be cheapest if I switch the
120VAC
input off before changing contacts to another battery. In your case you
would be powering it from a your 120V pack?
I'm thinking about one of those cheep 15v 2 amp surplus computer power
supplys , I'll hooked it up to the battery bank of the mower , then use my
10 position switch to find the battery that need a bit more .
Probably still cheapest to
switch the input off, but a pain maybe if you are doing it manually.
one switch , and you'd need to be able to switch it off to see how the
batteries where doing on there own.
steve clunn
- John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Took 3 hours to water 225 greentop cells for the first time. The
remaining 27 redtops will get filled when the busbars for them are
finished. The greentops took exactly 1 gallon of distilled water to put
them 1/4" above the bottom of the V at full charge. The manual says to
wait at least 30 minutes but not more than 2 hours to get a proper
level check after full charge. I took 3 hours. It won't matter as much
because the greentops have probably 30-50% more volume in the V than
the red tops. So there is more room for error without spewing. This
watering took place at about 330+ miles. They have not been watered
ever. So they have run with their factory filling. They were not low,
but would be if run much longer. Using a modified filling bulb like the
manual recommends really made this an easy task.
I'm happy with the range and not having to plan every turn. Although I
drove them hard yesterday and found there is a bit of a peukert curve.
I think the AC system is being nice to these nicads and I hope that
translates into a good lifespan.
I can't wait to get back to getting a BMS/monitor going.
Mike
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They sound great. I wonder if they are like the ones that Ed Ang uses.
Do you have a picture of the cell?
The 50% rule of thumb is not for nicad/nimh, mostly for lead acid. of
course lowering the dod always makes any chemistry last longer. But
it's not a requirement with nicad/nimh.
Let us know what else you learn. My buddy is interested in
replacements for yellow tops as well and these could be useful. Many D
cells are junk though. So testing is very important to validate the
specs.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
> I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
>
> They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
> weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
>
> This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells at
> much less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells)
> for 9Ah, the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are
> roughly half the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
>
> Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell me
> not to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price
> is about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of them
> if they perform as advertised.
>
> Jack
>
> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
> > Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
> >
> > Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
> > already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC
cars.
> > Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
> > increased battery weight.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
> > Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
> >
> >
> >> Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
> >> What kind of power output?
> >>
> >> How about on the battery front?
> >>
> >> How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
> >> energy storage devices?
> >>
> >> Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
> >> actually being released?
> >>
> >
> >
>
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> I think if you found two different known, long grades you could do it.
> The terminal velocity would depend on the grade and from the
> two different grades you could tease apart the aero factor from the
> rolling resistance factor since they depend on grade differently.
> You'd have to measure the grade somehow like with a level maybe. I
dont know
> about averaging, I dont see how you'd get the car to go up the hill
unless you
> wait until nighttime when the world is upside down.
You have the wrong idea of a "roll down" - it's not downhill, it's
done on as flat a road as possible and involves bringing the vehicle
up to a certain speed and letting it 'roll down', measure speed and
time (and maybe distance?) and calculate drag (rolling and aero) from
the numbers - again, I don't know the specifics or how accurate it is,
but I'd like to be able to guage the affect of changes I make.
Ok I was thinking about it and it looks like you can start at two
different speeds on a level,
measure roll down times and get values of CpA and RR from there.
The math is kinda obtruse but the online integrator at
integrals.wolfram.com handles it.
It may be easier than I thought since I so far used only the starting
speed and the time
while the distance is also easy enough to measure .
The diff eq I hit was:
a=dV/dt = 1/2 Cp A/m V^2 + Cd g
where Cp is the aero coefficient (reasonable .25-.45) , A is the
area, m the mass, Cd the coeff. of RR (reasonable .005 - .015)
and mathematica solves it as
t=Arctan[Sqrt[a/b] V] / Sqrt[ab]
where a = 1/2Cp A/m and b=Cd g
you can actually solve this for two t's and two v's after some
fooling around, I'll post it if anyone
actually is interested
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For those of you that are having trouble with the MP4, you can also watch it
streamed from the dateline website. http://news.sbs.com.au/dateline/ Click
on the play button on the blue "Video Online" box. The MP4 is encoded with
the Nero Digital codec, you need codec's or a suitable player that can
decode that format.
Cheers,
Dean
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--- Begin Message ---
Assuming you mean an analog needle-style meter: Probably not.
Short-term pulses through the shunt shouldn't cause any damage.
John wrote:
What happens it you intermittently "over load" a shunt with an ammeter
gage connected.
For example a 500amp 50mv shunt and spikes of 800 amps or more are
sent through the circuit? Would this damage a gage that reads 500 amps
at 50mv drop?
Thanks
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Well folks, it's official. After many sleepless weeks and months of
reading about everyone else's EVs I finally have one of my own!
I'm particularly proud of the fact that I found it quite by chance
here in the Nashville area. I haven't been able to find any
references to it online (although I would VERY much like to learn more
about the person(s) who converted it and the history of the vehicle).
Given how obsessively I research things online, that makes the find
and the purchase rare on the level of a verifyable loch ness monster
sighting. :)
I guess we'll all have to wait for Mike to approve the listing in the
EV album, but when it's ready, it will be number 882. She's a 1987
Nissan "hardbody" pickup truck in pristine shape. I've nicknamed her
Ariel the Silver Sylph but I reserve the right to rename her once I
get to know her better (especially if my daughter comes up with
something cute).
She has an ailing battery pack but is otherwise in great condition.
I'm very excited both about excercising her batteries to extend her
range short-term and about planning for a new battery pack and
possibly a controller upgrade to make her a good perfomer as well as a
good commuter.
Thank you SO much to all of you for answering my questions so far (and
many more to come, believe me!) and to those of you who I've been in
touch with about your vehicles for sale. I'm very very lucky to have
found one in my area but otherwise I would have bought one of yours!
Next, I need to convince my wife that we need to move to another house
with a large garage/workshop where I can keep more EV projects! Wish
me luck.
Matt "just can't wipe that EV grin off his face" Kenigson
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Yes please do. Thanks
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> Jeremy Rutman wrote
> Ok I was thinking about it and it looks like you can start at two
> different speeds on a level,
> measure roll down times and get values of CpA and RR from there...
> <snip a bit>
> you can actually solve this for two t's and two v's after some
> fooling around, I'll post it if anyone
> actually is interested
>
>
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Matt wrote:
Well folks, it's official. After many sleepless weeks and months of
reading about everyone else's EVs I finally have one of my own!
Excellent!
I guess we'll all have to wait for Mike to approve the listing in the
EV album, but when it's ready, it will be number 882.
It's approved, use the link http://evalbum.com/882
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
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On 9/25/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Steve Clunn's post on his EV lawn mower prompted me to mention a new EV
at my place. I got a Friendly Robotics RL850 RoboMower.
First impressions: It's a neat toy.
An expensive toy!
I did a quick google to see what you are talking about, I noticed the
next model up also has a "docking station" charger that the robot
drives into. I guess this is just low-voltage DC contacts but it
would be interesting to see how it works.
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David,
I am on the EV list to learn from other's experiences and knowledge and to
share my experience and knowledge. It is often a fun and educational
experience.
But I do not enjoy being called 'a dick'. Life is too short. It is also
against the list charter
Luckily there is a quick technological fix. I just added your name to my
blocked list.
I often hesitate to do this because there are some abrasive personalities on
the list who do contribute excellent information. Blocking them cuts me off
from things I would like to learn.
In your case, I feel there is little danger of that. Statements like < This
has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago.> does not tell me
anything except that you were convinced by someone's argument. It does not
help me learn anything.
You pose vague argumentative statements, < Kokam still have the same
problems with larger packs failing? > which seem designed to put Kokam in
the position of "When did they stop beating their wives". For the record, I
have not heard anything about any Kokam packs failing despite exchanging
information with a lot of Kokam users. ProEV posts our experiences in public
to help others learn from our mistakes. We have had cells fail because we
have chosen to run the cells outside of what is recommended.
Specifically our 70 amp-hr cells were rate for 5 C (350 amps) continuously
but on the track, we would run them closer to their peak rating (700 amps).
Kokam had no experience under these conditions but suggested that if we kept
the cell below 60 degree Celsius, we might just lose some cycle life. Our
cooling scheme was inadequate and many cells went over 70 degree Celsius. We
have learned that Kokam is right. High heat can kill a cell.
We have also shorted cells and killed cells by over-discharging them but not
on purpose.
Other of your statements are just poorly written and hard to understand
<Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles pack life! > . I
think you mean that the latest Kokam cells last for only 500 cycles . This
would be wrong. The new cells ( called High Power and Ultra High Power ) are
conservatively rated for over 800 cycles.
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html has a graph of the
100% discharge test at over 1,400 cycles. (Everyone should keep in mind that
no manufacture has given us a solid answer of calendar life since each new
cell formulation has not been around long enough for anything but simulated
calendar life testing, so cycle life might not be our biggest concern.)
Good bye, David.
If anyone else has questions about David's arguments that I did not address,
please feel free to ask them.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 03:04:23 -0500, you wrote:
>I've nicknamed her
>Ariel the Silver Sylph but I reserve the right to rename her once I
>get to know her better (especially if my daughter comes up with
>something cute).
I know how that goes. :)
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
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I have done the stop watch strapped to my leg 0-60 tests when I was
tuning my pickup for racing(in my ICE days)
When I started it was like 17 seconds(pathetic) but when I got down
around 8-9 seconds it got really hard to get a good reading, Both my
reaction time to hit the stopwatch just right and the lag in the
speedometer started to show up. If we start talking performance vehicles
then you are not going to measure it accurately with a stopwatch.
Perhaps telemetry could help?
Can we capture from the zilla rpm data and knowing 10 readings per
second and our gear ratio, find the 60mph point and calculate the number
of seconds to get there?
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If it's rust free what a deal. It appears to be rust free. Might be an
illusion though. Lawrence Rhodes.....I'm selling mine still not completed
for 4k. It however is rust free.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: EV parts car on e-bay
> Steve Powers wrote:
> > 1981 Electric VW Rabbit EV 9 inch motor Curtis Zivan Item number:
250031078621
>
> I'd say get it. The rainwater problem in the passenger compartment is
> EASY to fix: There are a pair of rubber drain guards on either side of
> the spot between the front shock tower and firewall. When these get
> clogged (as happened on my 84 GTI) it drips into the car. One stick and
> 20 seconds fixes this forever.
>
> So what else is wrong with it? Get a rear battery box, new front box,
> and 20 of those SAFT ST5-180R NiCDs and go to town forever.
>
> Unfortunately I have two electric cars already :-(
>
> Chris
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Jeremy
I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was belittling your analysis. I still
thing it was a good piece of work.
But, I started to wonder about the validity of this prediction ( and , the
equivalent gas/battery weight predictor) when I plugged in the numbers for
my conversion-in-progress ( Echo with 13 8VGC's) here is what happened:
The range is given by an empirical formula taking into account battery
capacity and vehicle weight. The range R (in km)
is given as a function of battery capacity B(of any type, in kWh) and total
vehicle weight W (in kg) by:
R[kilometers] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[kilograms]^0.6)
There is a lucky cancellation that makes the formula look exactly
>the same in cowboy units:
R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
So, for my car:
Weight (lbs) =2500
Battery capacity = 13 x 8V x ( 100 amperes x 80% DOD) = 8.32 KWh
(Where 100 amp-hours is the 1 hour capacity is given by USbatteries)
So, applying your formula: Range(miles) = 250(8.32)/(2500^.6) = 19 miles
Now, this might be the actual range of my conversion, but I sure hope not.
For contrast, here is the "600 lbs batteries = 1 gal gas" prediction:
Equiv gas (gal) = 13 batteries x 65#/battery x (1 gal/600#) = 1.4 gallons
The ICE mileage of my car averaged about 45 ( with LRR tires), but the
conversion will weigh a bit more, so I'll use 40 MPG:
Range = 1.4 gal x 40 MPG = 56 miles.
Now, this sounds optimistic to me. The actual range will likely be between
the two estimates.
I have also heard a similar equivalent-gas formula, where 1 gallon of gas is
equivalent to 1000# of batteries. Using that, my prediction would be 34
miles range. That seems more likely to me, based on my own calculations for
my particular car. These calculations include the effects of tire losses,
air drag, cabling voltage drop, motor efficiency, etc for my vehicle.
As far as developing a universal range formula myself, I'm too busy working
on my own conversion, and I'm skeptical that a useful formula could be
developed without a LOT of work, and without consideration of more than just
vehicle weight and battery capacity. You're right - it would be a lot of
effort to collect and analyze all of the needed data to do it right.
My concern with your presenting this formula as fact is that if a newbie
might look at this, and use it to make decisions about his or her car. I
just wish that you had mentioned the uncertainty inherent with this
predictor when you presented it.
The key problem seems to be your use of weight and battery capacity alone
to develop a range predictor. When you saw the data spread based on these
two factors, you might have realized that you couldn't get good results
using just these two factors.
For example: I could have started out and assumed that the most important
factors range-wise were the length of the vehicle and the total number of
wheel lugnuts. I could then plot range data using only these two
properties. I could continue, as you did, and find a best fit curve that
predicted range based on these two properties alone. But, the data spread
would be absurdly large, and for me to present that range predictor might be
misleading to others.
Again, I applaud you for your work, and I don't mean to discourage you. The
world of EV conversions would benefit from more thoughtful analytical work
like yours.
Phil
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