EV Digest 5913
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV parts car on e-bay
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Robot lawn mower
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) melted a post (learned a lesson)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Just started my first EV
by "Paschke, Stephen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by Ralph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Dmitri Hurik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) will not go
by Calvin King <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Short and blunt
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Problem for high tech electric cars is if they post a timeslip & a Subaru
WRX beats it(or other electric car) they could lose sales if the results
aren't favorable. I'm still sure a GPS could do it. Lawrence Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: EVent: Silicon Valley EAA Rally Sat Sept 30 10a-4p Palo Alto
>
>
> > Some of the auto magazines like Car and Driver are using VBOX by
Racelogic
> > and many, many auto manufactures including Aston Martin, Ferrari,
Daimler
> > Chrysler, Porsche, Hyundai, Honda, BMW, Nissan, Toyota, Volvo, Ford and
> > countless others use Racelogic equipment. http://www.racelogic.co.uk/
> Check
> > out the accuracy of their VBOX product. What is the big deal with you
> folks
> > about asking for verifiable data? I have information from a reliable
> source
> > that one of the vehicles mentioned isn't even close to being under four
> > seconds from 0 to 60. Please offer some verifiable data. I guess Lee
Hart
> > was right on. BS sells!
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> > www.suckamps.com
> >
>
> I am with Rod on this one..
> 0 to 60 in 4 seconds..
>
> Ok lets see the time slip.. You folks WERE at a Race track...? What was
the
> 60 Ft and the 1/8 time and Speed???
> I am Sure Rod has the slip from the Late night on Gp...
> I have a ash stray full of slips on Goldie...
> Wayland has a box full And I know Dennis has a Large Moving box size Bin
of
> slips. So
> When you post stuff that looks like it's a World record.. have the Stones
to
> measure it the way Men do... with honest trap speeds and time slips.
>
> Both Rod and I are sick of one offs with Mega Buck batteries and drives..
> and heck folks.. just make a good run and Post the time slip.
>
> As we both expect.. most of the numbers are posted for the Coprate folks
> that think Virtual speeds and numbers are worth Other folks spending money
> on.
>
> Madman
>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can a GPS be used to give 0 to 60 times? If so it could also be used to log
altitude, distance etc. for purposes of range calculation. Hell if you
could get it to talk to your emeter & a few other sensors like temperature
you could get some real good data to figure energy usage. Real range
estimate before you go on your trip. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Sep 2006 at 6:12, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> It appears to be rust free.
In the photos it appeared to me that there might be some rust, perhaps all
the way through, on the left rocker panel. However that may be surface rust
or even dirt, since the car doesn't seem to have the usual VW Rabbit rusty
spots - or perhaps someone plugged the more obvious ones with mud and hosed
on a coat of paint!
Again, strictly from what I can tell in a cursory look at the listing, I
guess I don't agree though that $2000 is more than it's worth and I don't
understand why anyone would think that it's only useful for parting out. I
could be missing something though.
A few years ago, an old EV like this would have sold for maybe $1500,
possibly less. But EVs have been hotter properties lately. Used to be you
could get a decent Solectria Force for $6k or so, but these days they sell
closer to $10k.
Which reminds me : Those of you who have declared value insurance policies
may want to contact your agents and have them adjust your EV's value.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence, I do use two devices for these types of measurements:
GPS for overall all trip measurements (location and altitude)
GTech meter for performance
The GPS, at a 10-25m accuracy I do not think would be quite good enough for
0-60 or 1/4 mile times. But it is more than adequate for recording a trip
then calculating energy usage or merging with EMeter data in a spreadsheet.
Check out my terrain and energy spreadsheet
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_EstimatingPowerNeeds.html
The GTech is good for 1/4 mile and 0-60 times. This can be downloaded as
well and merged with EMeter data, although since the EMeter records at 1
second intervals it might be a bit rough.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: September 25, 2006 6:35 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
Can a GPS be used to give 0 to 60 times? If so it could also be used to log
altitude, distance etc. for purposes of range calculation. Hell if you
could get it to talk to your emeter & a few other sensors like temperature
you could get some real good data to figure energy usage. Real range
estimate before you go on your trip. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn's post on his EV lawn mower prompted me to mention a new EV at my
place. I got a Friendly Robotics RL850 RoboMower.
First impressions: It's a neat toy. The neighbors are more impressed by it
than my other EVs. It's very quiet, but slow. Does a good job on large
rectangular parts of the yard with no obstacles, but misses many spots when
there are obstacles (trees etc.) or narrow, awkward shapes. It's difficult to
use by hand to touch up the spots it misses. Burying the "electronic fence"
wire that keeps it in your yard is a royal pain. Quality seems OK, but many
parts have an overly-cheap toylike feel.
I've had an RL500 for several years. The pack may have in fact committed
suicide based on the charger abusing it, but I'm borrowing my sister's
pack (I got her one too) tonight...
Slow when it runs itself, but nicely lazy; It does a good job as long
you don't let the grass get too high
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today was my first break down.
I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon accelerating at a traffic
light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the first available lot, and
discovered one of my battery posts completely melted the post down to
molten nothingness.
I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered my batteries 10 days
ago, so would have naturally checked for loose connections at the same
time.
I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes and get on my way. I
won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge a pack with one less
battery) until I replace fix.
???QUESTIONS:???
1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old) battery?
3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have it match the others
most closely
2nd set of questions.
In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery copper lugs are used.
Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the post clamp with copper
lugs.
However, I'm also baffled.
battery post clamps have been around forever, and I doubt loosen in
gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had trouble with this. It
was fairly tight 2 months ago.
I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that partially melted a post
(not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is really tight.
??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the installation that is
inferior?
For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you don't already.
I learned the $100 way
BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it died. This is proof
that this is the great technology!! (one that can be fixed by the average
Joe)
I'll keep you POSTED,
Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm sorry you chose to run away from the debate especially without
addressing any of the issues but instead did the equivalent of sticking your
fingers in your ears and singing "I'm can't hear you", is this a mature
response?
Now, for the record and for the list - as you're not listening ;-), I posted
what are called OPINIONS, sorry that you don't like them but I have that
right. You responded to my own personal OPINIONS with a highly inflammatory
mail (which you stated yourself) and raised tired old fallacies. You acted
like a dick and I called you on it, your first reply to my OPINIONS was an
inelegant attempt at a put down and if you were honest with yourself you
would admit that, although by running away you obviously know you are not on
a sure footing.
You might not know Kokam have had problems with the large packs, and
something else you don't know: my brother was the sole importer for Kokams
in the UK for over a year and they had scaling problems then.
I'm above your ad hominem attacks so let's clarify some real points:
My comment about Kokam claiming 500 cycles: I refer to the fact that they
make this claim when it is false, has been proven false by independent
testers and that is with smaller packs. 800 cycles? BWWaaahhh, sure, and I
also have a rather nice bridge for sale. With batteries, all manufactures
make claims, many outrageous and Kokam have a record of this, they were the
first manufacture to start using capacity rating with a discharge current of
0.2c while most other manufactures at the time used 1C, sneaky. Who
initially denied LiPo cells had a shelf life? Why, that would be Kokam.
I believe there is always things to learn from everybody and have found this
to be the case throughout my life, in fact everyone I've met I have learnt
something from, or at least I can not thing of anyone I have not learnt
anything from. Take Cor's excellent response, he quoted verifiable facts and
simply put the thread to rest, of course, until you had your tantrum.
One thing I find absolutely stunning is your attempt to have the last word,
simply amazing. Anyone with a rational mind knows exactly what you are up
to; you see, rational people that truly believe that "life's too short"
would simply deleted the mail and block the sender. You on the other hand
waste your "too short life" sending a response! Unbelievable. Further, I've
seen you pull the exact same stunt with others on this list and had 2
private emails after your first outburst stating that you are "arrogant
without any cause to be" and "not just a dick, an elitist dick" so it
appears you have upset others as well.
Your behaviour is transparent and from it, I can be certain you will read
this mail; ironically though you have prevented yourself from even replying,
oh my.
Cliff, be especially careful when talking about items you have a vested
interest in, such as being sponsored - firstly you must be aware that you
can easily come across as a bought and paid for shill out to mislead and
suppress other peoples OPINIONS that don't match what you are trying to
promote. Secondly, what you do on this public list also reflects on the
company that sponsors you. Now, go and think about how badly you have
handled this, in front of a lot of the EV community and how that reflects on
Kokam and their choice to be represented by you. You can't learn anything
from me? You just did ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of ProEV
Sent: Monday, 25 September 2006 10:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
David,
I am on the EV list to learn from other's experiences and knowledge and to
share my experience and knowledge. It is often a fun and educational
experience.
But I do not enjoy being called 'a dick'. Life is too short. It is also
against the list charter
Luckily there is a quick technological fix. I just added your name to my
blocked list.
I often hesitate to do this because there are some abrasive personalities on
the list who do contribute excellent information. Blocking them cuts me off
from things I would like to learn.
In your case, I feel there is little danger of that. Statements like < This
has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago.> does not tell me
anything except that you were convinced by someone's argument. It does not
help me learn anything.
You pose vague argumentative statements, < Kokam still have the same
problems with larger packs failing? > which seem designed to put Kokam in
the position of "When did they stop beating their wives". For the record, I
have not heard anything about any Kokam packs failing despite exchanging
information with a lot of Kokam users. ProEV posts our experiences in public
to help others learn from our mistakes. We have had cells fail because we
have chosen to run the cells outside of what is recommended.
Specifically our 70 amp-hr cells were rate for 5 C (350 amps) continuously
but on the track, we would run them closer to their peak rating (700 amps).
Kokam had no experience under these conditions but suggested that if we kept
the cell below 60 degree Celsius, we might just lose some cycle life. Our
cooling scheme was inadequate and many cells went over 70 degree Celsius. We
have learned that Kokam is right. High heat can kill a cell.
We have also shorted cells and killed cells by over-discharging them but not
on purpose.
Other of your statements are just poorly written and hard to understand
<Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles pack life! > . I
think you mean that the latest Kokam cells last for only 500 cycles . This
would be wrong. The new cells ( called High Power and Ultra High Power ) are
conservatively rated for over 800 cycles.
http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html has a graph of the
100% discharge test at over 1,400 cycles. (Everyone should keep in mind that
no manufacture has given us a solid answer of calendar life since each new
cell formulation has not been around long enough for anything but simulated
calendar life testing, so cycle life might not be our biggest concern.)
Good bye, David.
If anyone else has questions about David's arguments that I did not address,
please feel free to ask them.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are you located? Don Gillis has good used batteries and Trojan 125s
are common so I expect he would have some of those. Also, Otmar and I once
fixed a similar problem on one of my batteries by cutting off a post on a
bad battery and melting it onto the one we were repairing. It worked very
well.
- Will
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: melted a post (learned a lesson)
Today was my first break down.
I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon accelerating at a traffic
light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the first available lot, and
discovered one of my battery posts completely melted the post down to molten
nothingness.
I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered my batteries 10 days
ago, so would have naturally checked for loose connections at the same time.
I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes and get on my way. I
won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge a pack with one less
battery) until I replace fix.
???QUESTIONS:???
1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old) battery?
3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have it match the others most
closely
2nd set of questions.
In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery copper lugs are used.
Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the post clamp with copper
lugs.
However, I'm also baffled.
battery post clamps have been around forever, and I doubt loosen in gasoline
vehicle environments. So, why have I had trouble with this. It was fairly
tight 2 months ago.
I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that partially melted a post
(not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is really tight.
??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the installation that is
inferior?
For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you don't already.
I learned the $100 way
BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it died. This is proof
that this is the great technology!! (one that can be fixed by the average
Joe)
I'll keep you POSTED,
Ben
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Intellect makes Sub-C batteries for R/C which are not junk, so the
D-cell form factor should work as advertised.
I'd like to build some 12v packs in a YT form-factor with integrated BMS
that can be charged using existing lead-acid chargers.
Jack
Mike Phillips wrote:
They sound great. I wonder if they are like the ones that Ed Ang uses.
Do you have a picture of the cell?
The 50% rule of thumb is not for nicad/nimh, mostly for lead acid. of
course lowering the dod always makes any chemistry last longer. But
it's not a requirement with nicad/nimh.
Let us know what else you learn. My buddy is interested in
replacements for yellow tops as well and these could be useful. Many D
cells are junk though. So testing is very important to validate the
specs.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells at
much less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells)
for 9Ah, the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are
roughly half the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell me
not to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price
is about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of them
if they perform as advertised.
Jack
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC
cars.
Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
increased battery weight.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
What kind of power output?
How about on the battery front?
How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
energy storage devices?
Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
actually being released?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Sep 2006 at 0:45, David Ankers wrote:
> for the record and for the list ...
I'm not so sure you'll achieve that goal. With all due respect - and note
that I speak only for myself and not the list - I stopped doing anything
more than skimming this thread some time ago.
This started as a worthwhile discussion of a significant topic, but it's
gone on too long and it's degenerating. Both sides' most useful points were
made at the very beginning, and now the exchange appears to have turned into
something of a grudge match. You are down to discussing each others'
attitudes, for goodness sakes. I don't see any significant new points being
made about the bloody batteries, though I'll admit I haven't read too
closely. (Or maybe that's WHY I don't see any significant new points being
made; the signal to noise ratio has gotten too low. ;-)
It took me many years to learn that, in most public settings, more than two
rebuttals is usually a waste of time. (Often more than ONE is.) The other
party isn't going to be persuaded; and after about 4 missiles have been
launched, most of the rest of the public has tuned out, so NOBODY is
listening.
When I write about something here and somebody jumps on me, I usually just
let it go. I don't write a followup, certainly not more than one, unless I
omitted something significant in the original post. I figure I've aleady
made my point, and I leave it up to the reader to decide which is more
useful to him, my ideas or my opponent's.
I dunno 'bout you guys, but I have better things to do than engaging in - or
reading - futile argument.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the top isn't damaged, a good battery shop (real battery specialists, not
an ICE battery changing shop) can cast on a new post.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben,
Some of my thoughts about your problem:
Tapered lead battery posts have been a problem and source of failure for me.
Careful attention and regular maintenence are the only fix I know.
Make sure contact surfaces are clean.
Tighten clamp to manfacturer's spec with torque wrench.
I added a spring type lock washer to clamp bolt, split ring, but belleville
would work. Most clamps have bolt and nut but no lock washer. I can't say
this helped for sure, but I had no failures since.
Failures (meltdowns) may start from loose clamp or corrosion. A protective
coating product has helped me reduce corrosion. Some flexibility in the
connector cables help reduce loosening from vibration.
I don't know why 12 volt batteries in IC cars do not have more problems. But
failures there are mainly detected by intermittent engine cranking, problem is
found and clamp tightened. In your high voltage EV pack, the problem isn't
noticed right away because the higher voltage will cause an arc across the gap
caused by the loose clamp and substain current. Once this starts, the post is
history in short order. The voltage across the open circuit clamp in the 12
volt starter circuit isn't enough to cause arc for long and the current simply
ceases.
I have repaired melted posts but never put those batteries back into heavy
duty service. Just used them around the shop. One way is to file post flat
,drill and tap it. Some places sell a tapered post with screw on the bottom
which can then be treaded into the tapped hole. Or just use a lug terminal and
bolt. Also I have recast the post using solder. Really would not trust either
method.
Lead terminals have always been a problem. Lead is soft and will "work" or I
suspect even "flow" away from the mating part. I think problem exists with all
types of lead terminals, but I have had more problems with the tapered post.
Jeff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Today was my first break down.
I was 7 miles from home towards work, and upon accelerating at a traffic
light lost motor power. I quickly pulled into the first available lot, and
discovered one of my battery posts completely melted the post down to
molten nothingness.
I learned my lesson for sure. I should have watered my batteries 10 days
ago, so would have naturally checked for loose connections at the same
time.
I was able to jumper past the battery in 40 minutes and get on my way. I
won't have automatic charging (Zivan will overcharge a pack with one less
battery) until I replace fix.
???QUESTIONS:???
1. Can a Trojan T-125 battery post be rebuilt?
2. If not, how can I get a similar (1 year old) battery?
3. If not, how should I order a new battery to have it match the others
most closely
2nd set of questions.
In my vehicle, both battery post clamps and battery copper lugs are used.
Today, I learned I should have long ago replaced the post clamp with copper
lugs.
However, I'm also baffled.
battery post clamps have been around forever, and I doubt loosen in
gasoline vehicle environments. So, why have I had trouble with this. It
was fairly tight 2 months ago.
I had problem with another clamp 5 months ago that partially melted a post
(not too much), I caught it in time, so that it is really tight.
??Are clamps inferior to lugs, or is it just the installation that is
inferior?
For the rest of you, tighten your connections if you don't already.
I learned the $100 way
BTW. I've never been able to fix my gas car when it died. This is proof
that this is the great technology!! (one that can be fixed by the average
Joe)
I'll keep you POSTED,
Ben
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2ยข/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just started pulling the exhaust and fuel system out of my '87
cabriolet yesterday. My plans are to make it simple to start out with.
72V with a shunt motor and a modified contactor controller. I'm going
to split the pack into two so I can start without much of a jerk and
have a lower idle rpm at lights (if I decide to keep it on).
My needs are a 20 mile range max, usually only 6 miles. 45 mph is the
fastest I'll need to go.
I've waited too long to start this project, but I am going now!
Steve Paschke
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks David, good points, I shouldn't have got sucked in.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2006 1:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
On 26 Sep 2006 at 0:45, David Ankers wrote:
> for the record and for the list ...
I'm not so sure you'll achieve that goal. With all due respect - and note
that I speak only for myself and not the list - I stopped doing anything
more than skimming this thread some time ago.
This started as a worthwhile discussion of a significant topic, but it's
gone on too long and it's degenerating. Both sides' most useful points were
made at the very beginning, and now the exchange appears to have turned into
something of a grudge match. You are down to discussing each others'
attitudes, for goodness sakes. I don't see any significant new points being
made about the bloody batteries, though I'll admit I haven't read too
closely. (Or maybe that's WHY I don't see any significant new points being
made; the signal to noise ratio has gotten too low. ;-)
It took me many years to learn that, in most public settings, more than two
rebuttals is usually a waste of time. (Often more than ONE is.) The other
party isn't going to be persuaded; and after about 4 missiles have been
launched, most of the rest of the public has tuned out, so NOBODY is
listening.
When I write about something here and somebody jumps on me, I usually just
let it go. I don't write a followup, certainly not more than one, unless I
omitted something significant in the original post. I figure I've aleady
made my point, and I leave it up to the reader to decide which is more
useful to him, my ideas or my opponent's.
I dunno 'bout you guys, but I have better things to do than engaging in - or
reading - futile argument.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just found this post from 2 weeks ago...
lets see.. We can get 3500 and 6500 volt IGbts..from some where .
Man I don't want to know what the votlage drop would be... like 6 volts I
bet... LOT.!!
And no I don't have that kind of silicon in a charger yet..But I could make
a Buck converter that could do it..
I am not sure I want to be in the same building as a 3500 volt cap bank
would be in. That thing shorts.. and well Dynamite has less stored energy...
I have heard of these Caps... and well the added power handling issues and
support equipment to make them useable to Even seasoned industrial power
conversion designers is formable.
Nice Idea...... Needs some some more development.
The Fear factor.. is rather high dealing with this voltage level, at least
for me.
It's not going to be a issue until somebody drops a few hundred lbs of this
product on my toes. I am not sure they have much more than lab samples made
and tested.
I was hearing that they were looking for investors.. and that tells me..
they have a good idea... and need a lot more to make it happen.
The promise of the stored Kwhr is worth looking into. Don't expect it to
arrive in your next EV..
Mix this Cap with a cost effective Fuel cell that fits in your trunk and
with a Flywhell Battery... nice concepts..Got a ways to go.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
> Could the Zilla be modded to handle the 3500V source? This Ultra Cap
> could be charged with an existing Manzanita Micro charger right? How
> long would it take to reach full charge with the PFC-50 at full tilt
> on a 240 line putting out 75 amps?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the production embodiment is similar to the rumours we've heard, you would
use a conventional controller and batteries, with a device-to-be-created that
would transfer energy from the cap bank to the conventional (Li-I??) bank for
the motor's use.
A controller that ran off a voltage source with that kind of delta would be a
big design challenge to say the least.
-Ralph
On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 09:10:24 -0700
"Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I just found this post from 2 weeks ago...
>
> lets see.. We can get 3500 and 6500 volt IGbts..from some where .
> Man I don't want to know what the votlage drop would be... like 6 volts I
> bet... LOT.!!
>
> And no I don't have that kind of silicon in a charger yet..But I could make
> a Buck converter that could do it..
> I am not sure I want to be in the same building as a 3500 volt cap bank
> would be in. That thing shorts.. and well Dynamite has less stored energy...
>
> I have heard of these Caps... and well the added power handling issues and
> support equipment to make them useable to Even seasoned industrial power
> conversion designers is formable.
>
> Nice Idea...... Needs some some more development.
> The Fear factor.. is rather high dealing with this voltage level, at least
> for me.
> It's not going to be a issue until somebody drops a few hundred lbs of this
> product on my toes. I am not sure they have much more than lab samples made
> and tested.
> I was hearing that they were looking for investors.. and that tells me..
> they have a good idea... and need a lot more to make it happen.
>
> The promise of the stored Kwhr is worth looking into. Don't expect it to
> arrive in your next EV..
> Mix this Cap with a cost effective Fuel cell that fits in your trunk and
> with a Flywhell Battery... nice concepts..Got a ways to go.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2006 2:40 PM
> Subject: Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
>
>
> > Could the Zilla be modded to handle the 3500V source? This Ultra Cap
> > could be charged with an existing Manzanita Micro charger right? How
> > long would it take to reach full charge with the PFC-50 at full tilt
> > on a 240 line putting out 75 amps?
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well at $5 a piece I get $462 per kwh for these.
Yellowtops 24ah? Whaat? From the numbers I've seen they are about 50ah at 1
hour rate.
If they are $160, then I get $266 per kwh for YTs.
And these NIMH cells typically don't last longer than 500 cycles, which is
not really any longer than lead acid. So your NIMH will cost about twice as
much as lead acid. Is it worth the weight savings, but double price? Your
call.
And competitive with A123? I say no. Bare IB9000 cells you say are $5 a
piece so $462/kwh. You can get A123 cells on eBay for $1350 per kwh in
DeWalt packs right now. That is not 3-4, more like 2-3 times the cost. Then,
say you actually buy these A123 cells in bulk without those DeWalt packs,
you might have $1000/kwh or less. And then, the IB9000 cells will last about
500 cycles, where the A123 cells will easily last 2000 cycles according to
a123, and should even last 3000+ cycles, are lighter and way more
powerful(30C cont and 80C long pulse, 100C short pulse). So the A123 cells
actually come out cheaper over their lifetime. And keep in mind these are D
size NiMH cells, which are usually way less powerful than the Sub-C cells
per kg. If you are smart, you should pick A123 instead. No point at all in
these NiMHs. And charging NiMH isn't going to be any easier. They need a
different charging algorithm, unlike the CC/CV of Li-ion and lead acid.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:42 AM
Subject: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells at much
less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells) for 9Ah,
the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are roughly half
the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell me not
to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is
about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of them
if they perform as advertised.
Jack
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars.
Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
increased battery weight.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
What kind of power output?
How about on the battery front?
How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
energy storage devices?
Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
actually being released?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When is it bad to own an electric car? When you are totally
mechanically inept and no other Ev-ers live near and you car refuse
to acknowledge you are in the driver's seat.
Drove home Friday evening, set the car to charge. unplugged Saturday
morning. Equalized charged Saturday afternoon. Got in the car Sunday
morning to drive to church. Turned the key. The seatbelt alarm
sounded, radio came on. Put the car in gear, accelerated and
nothing. This Monday morning still nothing. Metered the few things
I know and partly understand, they all seem to be as should be. I do
not know where to go beyond the absolutely obvious and that is only
those things that are obvious to me. I had been driving absolutely
trouble free up to the time I parked the car. Any suggestions?
Calvin King
108 volt '81 Jet Electrica
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/25/06, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just found this post from 2 weeks ago...
lets see.. We can get 3500 and 6500 volt IGbts..from some where .
Man I don't want to know what the votlage drop would be... like 6 volts I
bet... LOT.!!
"The new 4.5KV devices have Vce(sat) = 3.3V@ 125 degrees centigrade"
http://www.pwrx.com/pages/newsflash/press_release.asp?file=270%2Ehtm
Dead easy right? ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh It looks like we have a short timer...... abusing a long time Ev
lister....
First David... treading ligher might give you a little better respect here
on this list.
Cliff has been on this list for a long time sharing his experiences with
Kokam's.. this is very usefull information.
You Seam to have come out of no where and know more than Guy who has years
of abusive racing on Said Batteries.
Guess who we are going to lilsten to???
Clearly not the Sqeaky voiced Punk that has some nasty things to say about
some pretty good batteries.
So I cast my vote to the list Gods to send you on your way.
If you have something to say, Say it cleanly and clearly and back it up
with data.. or don't say it all.
have a nice Day..
On some other list please.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
> I'm sorry you chose to run away from the debate especially without
> addressing any of the issues but instead did the equivalent of sticking
your
> fingers in your ears and singing "I'm can't hear you", is this a mature
> response?
>
> Now, for the record and for the list - as you're not listening ;-), I
posted
> what are called OPINIONS, sorry that you don't like them but I have that
> right. You responded to my own personal OPINIONS with a highly
inflammatory
> mail (which you stated yourself) and raised tired old fallacies. You acted
> like a dick and I called you on it, your first reply to my OPINIONS was an
> inelegant attempt at a put down and if you were honest with yourself you
> would admit that, although by running away you obviously know you are not
on
> a sure footing.
>
> You might not know Kokam have had problems with the large packs, and
> something else you don't know: my brother was the sole importer for Kokams
> in the UK for over a year and they had scaling problems then.
>
> I'm above your ad hominem attacks so let's clarify some real points:
>
> My comment about Kokam claiming 500 cycles: I refer to the fact that they
> make this claim when it is false, has been proven false by independent
> testers and that is with smaller packs. 800 cycles? BWWaaahhh, sure, and I
> also have a rather nice bridge for sale. With batteries, all manufactures
> make claims, many outrageous and Kokam have a record of this, they were
the
> first manufacture to start using capacity rating with a discharge current
of
> 0.2c while most other manufactures at the time used 1C, sneaky. Who
> initially denied LiPo cells had a shelf life? Why, that would be Kokam.
>
> I believe there is always things to learn from everybody and have found
this
> to be the case throughout my life, in fact everyone I've met I have learnt
> something from, or at least I can not thing of anyone I have not learnt
> anything from. Take Cor's excellent response, he quoted verifiable facts
and
> simply put the thread to rest, of course, until you had your tantrum.
>
> One thing I find absolutely stunning is your attempt to have the last
word,
> simply amazing. Anyone with a rational mind knows exactly what you are up
> to; you see, rational people that truly believe that "life's too short"
> would simply deleted the mail and block the sender. You on the other hand
> waste your "too short life" sending a response! Unbelievable. Further,
I've
> seen you pull the exact same stunt with others on this list and had 2
> private emails after your first outburst stating that you are "arrogant
> without any cause to be" and "not just a dick, an elitist dick" so it
> appears you have upset others as well.
>
> Your behaviour is transparent and from it, I can be certain you will read
> this mail; ironically though you have prevented yourself from even
replying,
> oh my.
>
> Cliff, be especially careful when talking about items you have a vested
> interest in, such as being sponsored - firstly you must be aware that you
> can easily come across as a bought and paid for shill out to mislead and
> suppress other peoples OPINIONS that don't match what you are trying to
> promote. Secondly, what you do on this public list also reflects on the
> company that sponsors you. Now, go and think about how badly you have
> handled this, in front of a lot of the EV community and how that reflects
on
> Kokam and their choice to be represented by you. You can't learn anything
> from me? You just did ;-)
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of ProEV
> Sent: Monday, 25 September 2006 10:32 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
>
> David,
>
> I am on the EV list to learn from other's experiences and knowledge and to
> share my experience and knowledge. It is often a fun and educational
> experience.
>
> But I do not enjoy being called 'a dick'. Life is too short. It is also
> against the list charter
>
> Luckily there is a quick technological fix. I just added your name to my
> blocked list.
>
> I often hesitate to do this because there are some abrasive personalities
on
> the list who do contribute excellent information. Blocking them cuts me
off
> from things I would like to learn.
>
> In your case, I feel there is little danger of that. Statements like <
This
> has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago.> does not tell me
> anything except that you were convinced by someone's argument. It does not
> help me learn anything.
>
> You pose vague argumentative statements, < Kokam still have the same
> problems with larger packs failing? > which seem designed to put Kokam in
> the position of "When did they stop beating their wives". For the record,
I
> have not heard anything about any Kokam packs failing despite exchanging
> information with a lot of Kokam users. ProEV posts our experiences in
public
> to help others learn from our mistakes. We have had cells fail because we
> have chosen to run the cells outside of what is recommended.
>
> Specifically our 70 amp-hr cells were rate for 5 C (350 amps) continuously
> but on the track, we would run them closer to their peak rating (700
amps).
> Kokam had no experience under these conditions but suggested that if we
kept
> the cell below 60 degree Celsius, we might just lose some cycle life. Our
> cooling scheme was inadequate and many cells went over 70 degree Celsius.
We
> have learned that Kokam is right. High heat can kill a cell.
>
> We have also shorted cells and killed cells by over-discharging them but
not
> on purpose.
>
> Other of your statements are just poorly written and hard to understand
> <Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles pack life! > . I
> think you mean that the latest Kokam cells last for only 500 cycles . This
> would be wrong. The new cells ( called High Power and Ultra High Power )
are
> conservatively rated for over 800 cycles.
>
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html has a graph of the
> 100% discharge test at over 1,400 cycles. (Everyone should keep in mind
that
> no manufacture has given us a solid answer of calendar life since each new
> cell formulation has not been around long enough for anything but
simulated
> calendar life testing, so cycle life might not be our biggest concern.)
>
> Good bye, David.
>
> If anyone else has questions about David's arguments that I did not
address,
> please feel free to ask them.
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
--- End Message ---
