EV Digest 5915
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Getting the garage electrical up to EV snuff
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT Re: New GM electric car
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Short and blunt
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Getting the garage electrical up to EV snuff
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: will not go
by "Mark Metcalf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: melted a post (learned a lesson)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) RE: Short and blunt - list abuse
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Robot lawn mower
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: "Ultracapacitor-Battery" blows away Current Lithium-Ion Battery
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Getting the garage electrical up to EV snuff
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Getting the garage electrical up to EV snuff
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "Sucking Amps" TV show pulled out of mothballs
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Patrionizing...patronizing... kuka näitä kaikkia muistaa! :)
Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does your garage not have any power outlets already?
If not then tell him you want a 100 amp sub panel installed in it. Then from
the sub-panel you want (some) 120v 20amp duplex outlets, one 240v 50 amp RV
outlet, and the outlet for the circuit you require now. Another option is
for him to install a 60 amp hot tub panel. These are available at Home-Depot
and GFCI protected.
This will cost a little more in parts right now. BUT, the greatest expense
is in labor and by doing it now it will be much cheaper than doing it AGAIN.
If anybodyis within a few hours of Rome, NY and needs this work done FOR AN
EV. I will donate my labor, you just pay for parts.......and dinner.
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Matt Kenigson
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 2:17 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Getting the garage electrical up to EV snuff
>
> Here comes the first of a barrage of questions I have for you guys.
> Hope you can put up with me over the next few weeks.
>
> We have an electrician coming over to do some work, and I want him to look
> over my new truck and put in a circuit for her while he's here.
> I made a list of things for my wife to ask him and I wanted your input on
> them (both to refine the questions and to get some answers about things
he's
> likely to not know from experience). Without further ado, here's the list
> as I sent it to my wife:
>
> 1) Can he please put in a new circuit for the EV? I only need a 30A
breaker
> right now (charger maxes out at 25A), but someday I'll probably want it to
> drive a 50A connection. Would it make sense to put in a 60A breaker now?
> Will I be able to convert to 220 at some point in the future? Do I want
to?
>
> If you could have him call me and explain some of this it would be great.
>
> 2) Off that circuit, can he install a regular three-prong outlet in the
> garage?
>
> 3) Does that outlet need to be a GFI outlet just in case? I want
something
> that will trip out if the connection somehow gets grounded.
>
> 4) Can he suggest any safety features or better ways of dealing with the
EV
> so that we don't worry about Ellie wandering in there on her own and
hurting
> herself? Plus any other suggestions or ideas.
>
> As always, thanks in advance for any helpful ideas and comments y'all
have.
> :)
>
> Matt
>
>
________________________________________________
Message sent using UebiMiau 2.7.9
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Who is Chuck Norris? Anyhow<g>!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 8:11 PM
Subject: OT Re: New GM electric car
> > Chuck Norris died?
> >
> >
>
> No, but there has been a string of Chuck Norris jokes online for a few
> months - my son can rattle off quite a few, too bad he's not home to
> recite some for me to transcribe. Yes, we are verging maddingly on the
> edge of the OT abyss.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi "Build leader"
Friendly place this. Especially when the matter had been put to bed, yet
your little man syndrome kicked it. Seems anyone that dissents and dares to
question anything on this list is open to attack. Poor Jack just got a dose
for daring to point out some new NiMH cells.
I don't agree with some things you say and find you abrasive and uncouth
YET, the key difference between us is that I would never ask for anyone to
be removed from this list. In the words of Voltaire "I might not agree with
all you say but I will defend your right to say it". You however, want
anyone that appears to disrespect your imaginary hierarchy to be removed.
Unlike you, I do not wish to get respect (you're projecting) however, I do
wish to know the truth.
I might have appeared to come from nowhere but I've been here a while and as
you can tell, I've seen you pull these outbursts before, "build leader".
Let's be clear: the point of your post was to stamp your authority and
reinforce the hieratical structure you have built in your head of the EV
world, with you somewhere near the top.
Cliff's mails did bother me; I tried to debate the issue yet he turned
nasty, however, you don't really bother me at all and I have even less
respect for you now for trying to jump on someone you thought was new to EVs
and attempt to scare them away from what you appear to consider your list.
P.s. Seam is a noun, as in a line of stitching, I think you wanted the word
"seem" which is a verb. As in: "I seem to be a verb" :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2006 1:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Short and blunt
Oh It looks like we have a short timer...... abusing a long time Ev
lister....
First David... treading ligher might give you a little better respect here
on this list.
Cliff has been on this list for a long time sharing his experiences with
Kokam's.. this is very usefull information.
You Seam to have come out of no where and know more than Guy who has years
of abusive racing on Said Batteries.
Guess who we are going to lilsten to???
Clearly not the Sqeaky voiced Punk that has some nasty things to say about
some pretty good batteries.
So I cast my vote to the list Gods to send you on your way.
If you have something to say, Say it cleanly and clearly and back it up
with data.. or don't say it all.
have a nice Day..
On some other list please.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
> I'm sorry you chose to run away from the debate especially without
> addressing any of the issues but instead did the equivalent of sticking
your
> fingers in your ears and singing "I'm can't hear you", is this a mature
> response?
>
> Now, for the record and for the list - as you're not listening ;-), I
posted
> what are called OPINIONS, sorry that you don't like them but I have that
> right. You responded to my own personal OPINIONS with a highly
inflammatory
> mail (which you stated yourself) and raised tired old fallacies. You acted
> like a dick and I called you on it, your first reply to my OPINIONS was an
> inelegant attempt at a put down and if you were honest with yourself you
> would admit that, although by running away you obviously know you are not
on
> a sure footing.
>
> You might not know Kokam have had problems with the large packs, and
> something else you don't know: my brother was the sole importer for Kokams
> in the UK for over a year and they had scaling problems then.
>
> I'm above your ad hominem attacks so let's clarify some real points:
>
> My comment about Kokam claiming 500 cycles: I refer to the fact that they
> make this claim when it is false, has been proven false by independent
> testers and that is with smaller packs. 800 cycles? BWWaaahhh, sure, and I
> also have a rather nice bridge for sale. With batteries, all manufactures
> make claims, many outrageous and Kokam have a record of this, they were
the
> first manufacture to start using capacity rating with a discharge current
of
> 0.2c while most other manufactures at the time used 1C, sneaky. Who
> initially denied LiPo cells had a shelf life? Why, that would be Kokam.
>
> I believe there is always things to learn from everybody and have found
this
> to be the case throughout my life, in fact everyone I've met I have learnt
> something from, or at least I can not thing of anyone I have not learnt
> anything from. Take Cor's excellent response, he quoted verifiable facts
and
> simply put the thread to rest, of course, until you had your tantrum.
>
> One thing I find absolutely stunning is your attempt to have the last
word,
> simply amazing. Anyone with a rational mind knows exactly what you are up
> to; you see, rational people that truly believe that "life's too short"
> would simply deleted the mail and block the sender. You on the other hand
> waste your "too short life" sending a response! Unbelievable. Further,
I've
> seen you pull the exact same stunt with others on this list and had 2
> private emails after your first outburst stating that you are "arrogant
> without any cause to be" and "not just a dick, an elitist dick" so it
> appears you have upset others as well.
>
> Your behaviour is transparent and from it, I can be certain you will read
> this mail; ironically though you have prevented yourself from even
replying,
> oh my.
>
> Cliff, be especially careful when talking about items you have a vested
> interest in, such as being sponsored - firstly you must be aware that you
> can easily come across as a bought and paid for shill out to mislead and
> suppress other peoples OPINIONS that don't match what you are trying to
> promote. Secondly, what you do on this public list also reflects on the
> company that sponsors you. Now, go and think about how badly you have
> handled this, in front of a lot of the EV community and how that reflects
on
> Kokam and their choice to be represented by you. You can't learn anything
> from me? You just did ;-)
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of ProEV
> Sent: Monday, 25 September 2006 10:32 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
>
> David,
>
> I am on the EV list to learn from other's experiences and knowledge and to
> share my experience and knowledge. It is often a fun and educational
> experience.
>
> But I do not enjoy being called 'a dick'. Life is too short. It is also
> against the list charter
>
> Luckily there is a quick technological fix. I just added your name to my
> blocked list.
>
> I often hesitate to do this because there are some abrasive personalities
on
> the list who do contribute excellent information. Blocking them cuts me
off
> from things I would like to learn.
>
> In your case, I feel there is little danger of that. Statements like <
This
> has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago.> does not tell me
> anything except that you were convinced by someone's argument. It does not
> help me learn anything.
>
> You pose vague argumentative statements, < Kokam still have the same
> problems with larger packs failing? > which seem designed to put Kokam in
> the position of "When did they stop beating their wives". For the record,
I
> have not heard anything about any Kokam packs failing despite exchanging
> information with a lot of Kokam users. ProEV posts our experiences in
public
> to help others learn from our mistakes. We have had cells fail because we
> have chosen to run the cells outside of what is recommended.
>
> Specifically our 70 amp-hr cells were rate for 5 C (350 amps) continuously
> but on the track, we would run them closer to their peak rating (700
amps).
> Kokam had no experience under these conditions but suggested that if we
kept
> the cell below 60 degree Celsius, we might just lose some cycle life. Our
> cooling scheme was inadequate and many cells went over 70 degree Celsius.
We
> have learned that Kokam is right. High heat can kill a cell.
>
> We have also shorted cells and killed cells by over-discharging them but
not
> on purpose.
>
> Other of your statements are just poorly written and hard to understand
> <Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles pack life! > . I
> think you mean that the latest Kokam cells last for only 500 cycles . This
> would be wrong. The new cells ( called High Power and Ultra High Power )
are
> conservatively rated for over 800 cycles.
>
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html has a graph of the
> 100% discharge test at over 1,400 cycles. (Everyone should keep in mind
that
> no manufacture has given us a solid answer of calendar life since each new
> cell formulation has not been around long enough for anything but
simulated
> calendar life testing, so cycle life might not be our biggest concern.)
>
> Good bye, David.
>
> If anyone else has questions about David's arguments that I did not
address,
> please feel free to ask them.
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Consider putting in two 60 amp plugs. Then if you decide to get a 240
V air compressor or welder you'll be set.
--- Matt Kenigson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here comes the first of a barrage of questions I have for you guys.
> Hope you can put up with me over the next few weeks.
>
> We have an electrician coming over to do some work, and I want him
> to
> look over my new truck and put in a circuit for her while he's
> here.
> I made a list of things for my wife to ask him and I wanted your
> input
> on them (both to refine the questions and to get some answers about
> things he's likely to not know from experience). Without further
> ado,
> here's the list as I sent it to my wife:
>
> 1) Can he please put in a new circuit for the EV? I only need a
> 30A
> breaker right now (charger maxes out at 25A), but someday I'll
> probably want it to drive a 50A connection. Would it make sense to
> put in a 60A breaker now? Will I be able to convert to 220 at some
> point in the future? Do I want to?
>
> If you could have him call me and explain some of this it would be
> great.
>
> 2) Off that circuit, can he install a regular three-prong outlet in
> the garage?
>
> 3) Does that outlet need to be a GFI outlet just in case? I want
> something that will trip out if the connection somehow gets
> grounded.
>
> 4) Can he suggest any safety features or better ways of dealing
> with
> the EV so that we don't worry about Ellie wandering in there on her
> own and hurting herself? Plus any other suggestions or ideas.
>
> As always, thanks in advance for any helpful ideas and comments
> y'all have. :)
>
> Matt
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I understand it correctly, cars with regen can use super caps to store
the energy from the brakes... then either feed it into the batts at a
slower recharge rate, or use it to help with the next acceleration of the
motor. This removes much of the risk from overcharging batts.
> Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
>
> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
> already
> released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars. Should get
> over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with increased battery
> weight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike young wrote:
I usually call a local electrician when i have any occasional problems
and it is usually something simple. Where are you located and what
kind of EV do you drive for the lists sake? Mike young
----- Original Message ----- From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:50 AM
Subject: will not go
When is it bad to own an electric car? When you are totally
mechanically inept and no other Ev-ers live near and you car refuse
to acknowledge you are in the driver's seat.
Drove home Friday evening, set the car to charge. unplugged Saturday
morning. Equalized charged Saturday afternoon. Got in the car Sunday
morning to drive to church. Turned the key. The seatbelt alarm
sounded, radio came on. Put the car in gear, accelerated and
nothing. This Monday morning still nothing. Metered the few things
I know and partly understand, they all seem to be as should be. I
do not know where to go beyond the absolutely obvious and that is
only those things that are obvious to me. I had been driving
absolutely trouble free up to the time I parked the car. Any
suggestions?
Calvin King
108 volt '81 Jet Electrica
Shoot from the hip stuff; check the throttle switch (controller?) and
check main power on/off switch. That's all I got.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm in NJ, so I'll be buying a new battery and will keep a close eye on its
water level as it'll be the strongest. I was recomended against repairing
a post to put back into heavy service.
Now, I have many cables and bolted lugs to put together with a generous
contractor electrician at the plant who will let me borrow his crimper.
QUESTION.
reading my "Ugly's" reference,
1/0 cable is rated to 230 to 400 Amps depending on temperature
2/0 is 300 to 500 Amps.
Those ratings are quite low.
My 600 Amp controller EV works well on 1/0 cable all around. However, who
uses 2/0? What is the real rating for 1/0 and 2/0 so one using a 2K Zilla
would know what to get?
I'm guessing the answer lies in "sustained current draw" and not 20 seconds
of high current draw.
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is no issue with questioning the status quo. However when questioning
is dealt with abuse or malice then it becomes a problem.
"yet your little man syndrome kicked it"
"You acted like a dick"
This kind of insulting people is not productive, nor EV related. If you
have personal issues please do not air it on the list.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Ankers
Sent: September 25, 2006 12:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Short and blunt
Hi "Build leader"
Friendly place this. Especially when the matter had been put to bed, yet
your little man syndrome kicked it. Seems anyone that dissents and dares to
question anything on this list is open to attack. Poor Jack just got a dose
for daring to point out some new NiMH cells.
I don't agree with some things you say and find you abrasive and uncouth
YET, the key difference between us is that I would never ask for anyone to
be removed from this list. In the words of Voltaire "I might not agree with
all you say but I will defend your right to say it". You however, want
anyone that appears to disrespect your imaginary hierarchy to be removed.
Unlike you, I do not wish to get respect (you're projecting) however, I do
wish to know the truth.
I might have appeared to come from nowhere but I've been here a while and as
you can tell, I've seen you pull these outbursts before, "build leader".
Let's be clear: the point of your post was to stamp your authority and
reinforce the hieratical structure you have built in your head of the EV
world, with you somewhere near the top.
Cliff's mails did bother me; I tried to debate the issue yet he turned
nasty, however, you don't really bother me at all and I have even less
respect for you now for trying to jump on someone you thought was new to EVs
and attempt to scare them away from what you appear to consider your list.
P.s. Seam is a noun, as in a line of stitching, I think you wanted the word
"seem" which is a verb. As in: "I seem to be a verb" :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Tuesday, 26 September 2006 1:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Short and blunt
Oh It looks like we have a short timer...... abusing a long time Ev
lister....
First David... treading ligher might give you a little better respect here
on this list.
Cliff has been on this list for a long time sharing his experiences with
Kokam's.. this is very usefull information.
You Seam to have come out of no where and know more than Guy who has years
of abusive racing on Said Batteries.
Guess who we are going to lilsten to???
Clearly not the Sqeaky voiced Punk that has some nasty things to say about
some pretty good batteries.
So I cast my vote to the list Gods to send you on your way.
If you have something to say, Say it cleanly and clearly and back it up
with data.. or don't say it all.
have a nice Day..
On some other list please.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
> I'm sorry you chose to run away from the debate especially without
> addressing any of the issues but instead did the equivalent of sticking
your
> fingers in your ears and singing "I'm can't hear you", is this a mature
> response?
>
> Now, for the record and for the list - as you're not listening ;-), I
posted
> what are called OPINIONS, sorry that you don't like them but I have that
> right. You responded to my own personal OPINIONS with a highly
inflammatory
> mail (which you stated yourself) and raised tired old fallacies. You acted
> like a dick and I called you on it, your first reply to my OPINIONS was an
> inelegant attempt at a put down and if you were honest with yourself you
> would admit that, although by running away you obviously know you are not
on
> a sure footing.
>
> You might not know Kokam have had problems with the large packs, and
> something else you don't know: my brother was the sole importer for Kokams
> in the UK for over a year and they had scaling problems then.
>
> I'm above your ad hominem attacks so let's clarify some real points:
>
> My comment about Kokam claiming 500 cycles: I refer to the fact that they
> make this claim when it is false, has been proven false by independent
> testers and that is with smaller packs. 800 cycles? BWWaaahhh, sure, and I
> also have a rather nice bridge for sale. With batteries, all manufactures
> make claims, many outrageous and Kokam have a record of this, they were
the
> first manufacture to start using capacity rating with a discharge current
of
> 0.2c while most other manufactures at the time used 1C, sneaky. Who
> initially denied LiPo cells had a shelf life? Why, that would be Kokam.
>
> I believe there is always things to learn from everybody and have found
this
> to be the case throughout my life, in fact everyone I've met I have learnt
> something from, or at least I can not thing of anyone I have not learnt
> anything from. Take Cor's excellent response, he quoted verifiable facts
and
> simply put the thread to rest, of course, until you had your tantrum.
>
> One thing I find absolutely stunning is your attempt to have the last
word,
> simply amazing. Anyone with a rational mind knows exactly what you are up
> to; you see, rational people that truly believe that "life's too short"
> would simply deleted the mail and block the sender. You on the other hand
> waste your "too short life" sending a response! Unbelievable. Further,
I've
> seen you pull the exact same stunt with others on this list and had 2
> private emails after your first outburst stating that you are "arrogant
> without any cause to be" and "not just a dick, an elitist dick" so it
> appears you have upset others as well.
>
> Your behaviour is transparent and from it, I can be certain you will read
> this mail; ironically though you have prevented yourself from even
replying,
> oh my.
>
> Cliff, be especially careful when talking about items you have a vested
> interest in, such as being sponsored - firstly you must be aware that you
> can easily come across as a bought and paid for shill out to mislead and
> suppress other peoples OPINIONS that don't match what you are trying to
> promote. Secondly, what you do on this public list also reflects on the
> company that sponsors you. Now, go and think about how badly you have
> handled this, in front of a lot of the EV community and how that reflects
on
> Kokam and their choice to be represented by you. You can't learn anything
> from me? You just did ;-)
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of ProEV
> Sent: Monday, 25 September 2006 10:32 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery fires concern auto enthusiasts)-Long
>
> David,
>
> I am on the EV list to learn from other's experiences and knowledge and to
> share my experience and knowledge. It is often a fun and educational
> experience.
>
> But I do not enjoy being called 'a dick'. Life is too short. It is also
> against the list charter
>
> Luckily there is a quick technological fix. I just added your name to my
> blocked list.
>
> I often hesitate to do this because there are some abrasive personalities
on
> the list who do contribute excellent information. Blocking them cuts me
off
> from things I would like to learn.
>
> In your case, I feel there is little danger of that. Statements like <
This
> has been debunked as a false analogy a long time ago.> does not tell me
> anything except that you were convinced by someone's argument. It does not
> help me learn anything.
>
> You pose vague argumentative statements, < Kokam still have the same
> problems with larger packs failing? > which seem designed to put Kokam in
> the position of "When did they stop beating their wives". For the record,
I
> have not heard anything about any Kokam packs failing despite exchanging
> information with a lot of Kokam users. ProEV posts our experiences in
public
> to help others learn from our mistakes. We have had cells fail because we
> have chosen to run the cells outside of what is recommended.
>
> Specifically our 70 amp-hr cells were rate for 5 C (350 amps) continuously
> but on the track, we would run them closer to their peak rating (700
amps).
> Kokam had no experience under these conditions but suggested that if we
kept
> the cell below 60 degree Celsius, we might just lose some cycle life. Our
> cooling scheme was inadequate and many cells went over 70 degree Celsius.
We
> have learned that Kokam is right. High heat can kill a cell.
>
> We have also shorted cells and killed cells by over-discharging them but
not
> on purpose.
>
> Other of your statements are just poorly written and hard to understand
> <Kokam claims a lot and always has, they still 500 cycles pack life! > . I
> think you mean that the latest Kokam cells last for only 500 cycles . This
> would be wrong. The new cells ( called High Power and Ultra High Power )
are
> conservatively rated for over 800 cycles.
>
> http://www.kokam.com/english/product/kokam_Lipo_01.html has a graph of the
> 100% discharge test at over 1,400 cycles. (Everyone should keep in mind
that
> no manufacture has given us a solid answer of calendar life since each new
> cell formulation has not been around long enough for anything but
simulated
> calendar life testing, so cycle life might not be our biggest concern.)
>
> Good bye, David.
>
> If anyone else has questions about David's arguments that I did not
address,
> please feel free to ask them.
>
> Cliff
> www.ProEV.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> On 9/25/06, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Steve Clunn's post on his EV lawn mower prompted me to mention a new EV
>> at my place. I got a Friendly Robotics RL850 RoboMower.
>>
>> First impressions: It's a neat toy.
>
> An expensive toy!
> I did a quick google to see what you are talking about, I noticed the
> next model up also has a "docking station" charger that the robot
> drives into. I guess this is just low-voltage DC contacts but it
> would be interesting to see how it works.
Lee: Doesn't it have a switch where you can cut out the electronics? Most
batt powered mowers do... just for that reason, over wintering them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com already
released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars. Should get
over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with increased battery
weight.
I like the HP potential. So about 105 of them will give me 348V. How
much range? How many parallel strings are we talking about here for
some decent range?
$21.50 each if I buy 6 and $18.34 each if I buy 12....
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/buyKit.html
How about a BMS to support a few hundred or thousand something of
them? Have you seen one and how much?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dmitri,
Please check your facts before posting. You are comparing the
theoritical best case on the lead acid with the practical worse case
on the Nimh. It is not only unfair, it is not even realistic.
50 Ah at 1C rate for an YT?! You must be dreaming. And, you still
get 500 cycles? I doubt that this is even possible in the ideal lab
condition. I have tested near 200 YT's, none could do more than 45 Ah
even after an extensive break-in. Most could only do about 30Ah if
you do not wake them up slowly.
For a fairer comparison, a typical Nimh cell could do >800 cycles at
100% DOD at 1C rate before dropping below 80% of its original
capacity. And, charging them is far easier than charging LiIon. Nimh
batteries are designed to handle some overcharge.
On 9/25/06, Dmitri Hurik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well at $5 a piece I get $462 per kwh for these.
Yellowtops 24ah? Whaat? From the numbers I've seen they are about 50ah at 1
hour rate.
If they are $160, then I get $266 per kwh for YTs.
And these NIMH cells typically don't last longer than 500 cycles, which is
not really any longer than lead acid. So your NIMH will cost about twice as
much as lead acid. Is it worth the weight savings, but double price? Your
call.
And competitive with A123? I say no. Bare IB9000 cells you say are $5 a
piece so $462/kwh. You can get A123 cells on eBay for $1350 per kwh in
DeWalt packs right now. That is not 3-4, more like 2-3 times the cost. Then,
say you actually buy these A123 cells in bulk without those DeWalt packs,
you might have $1000/kwh or less. And then, the IB9000 cells will last about
500 cycles, where the A123 cells will easily last 2000 cycles according to
a123, and should even last 3000+ cycles, are lighter and way more
powerful(30C cont and 80C long pulse, 100C short pulse). So the A123 cells
actually come out cheaper over their lifetime. And keep in mind these are D
size NiMH cells, which are usually way less powerful than the Sub-C cells
per kg. If you are smart, you should pick A123 instead. No point at all in
these NiMHs. And charging NiMH isn't going to be any easier. They need a
different charging algorithm, unlike the CC/CV of Li-ion and lead acid.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:42 AM
Subject: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
> Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
> I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
>
> They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge rates,
> weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
>
> This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1 cells at much
> less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells) for 9Ah,
> the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are roughly half
> the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
>
> Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys tell me not
> to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is
> about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> I will be testing, and will probably be importing some quantity of them
> if they perform as advertised.
>
> Jack
>
> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
>> Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
>>
>> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
>> already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars.
>> Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with
>> increased battery weight.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
>> Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
>>
>>
>>> Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of range?
>>> What kind of power output?
>>>
>>> How about on the battery front?
>>>
>>> How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
>>> energy storage devices?
>>>
>>> Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the verge of
>>> actually being released?
>>>
>>
>>
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
The Fear factor.. is rather high dealing with this voltage level, at least
for me.
We're only dealing with "medium voltage" though... ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/25/06, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Consider putting in two 60 amp plugs. Then if you decide to get a 240
V air compressor or welder you'll be set.
David, your post put the biggest grin on my face. That's largely
because as much as I may daydream about having a compressor or welder
in the garage, the chances of my wife letting me do real "garage" work
in our two-car suburban house garage is next to nil. Sure was nice
fantasizing about it, though! :)
On 9/25/06, Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does your garage not have any power outlets already?
If not then tell him you want a 100 amp sub panel installed in it. Then from
the sub-panel you want (some) 120v 20amp duplex outlets, one 240v 50 amp RV
outlet, and the outlet for the circuit you require now. Another option is
for him to install a 60 amp hot tub panel. These are available at Home-Depot
and GFCI protected.
In answer to Tim's question of whether I have outlets already, I have
one outlet that shares a GFCI protected circuit with an outdoor outlet
near my front door (about 30 feet away). Unfortunately, I already
have some cordless tool chargers and a freezer hooked into that
circuit. By trial-and-error testing, I determined I could get my
charger up to 7A without tripping the 15A breaker. I could get it all
the way up to 11A for a bit but as soon as the freezer would kick on
the breaker would trip.
I'll definitely look into the subpanel. I may have to go that route
if the bus in my current panel isn't up to the added capacity
regardless. I like the idea of getting the RV outlet for the future,
so the 100A subpanel is probably the way to go.
That takes care of my questions one and two. How about 3 & 4, though?
> 3) Does that outlet need to be a GFCI outlet just in case? I want
> something that will trip out if the connection somehow gets
> grounded.
Is GFCI the best way to get this kind of protection? Will it keep me
or my family members from serious harm if there's a puddle in the
wrong place, etc? Are there other options I should consider and be
planning for at this point?
> 4) Can he suggest any safety features or better ways of dealing
> with
> the EV so that we don't worry about Ellie wandering in there on her
> own and hurting herself? Plus any other suggestions or ideas.
How about any safety features more directly related to the truck or
the twist-lock connector on it?
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys may have already seen this but I think its cool... Got the
link from the EAA-PHEV list...
http://hybrids-plus.com/pmwiki/index.php?n=Ext.GalleryVehicles
John Grigg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Dmitri Hurik wrote:
> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
already
> released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars. Should
get
> over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with increased
battery
> weight.
I like the HP potential. So about 105 of them will give me 348V. How
much range? How many parallel strings are we talking about here for
some decent range?
$21.50 each if I buy 6 and $18.34 each if I buy 12....
http://www.a123systems.com/html/products/buyKit.html
How about a BMS to support a few hundred or thousand something of
them? Have you seen one and how much?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt Kenigson wrote:
1) Can he please put in a new circuit for the EV? I only need a 30A
breaker right now (charger maxes out at 25A), but someday I'll
probably want it to drive a 50A connection. Would it make sense to
put in a 60A breaker now? Will I be able to convert to 220 at some
point in the future? Do I want to?
How close is the main panel to the garage? If it is at the other end of
the house (and maybe even if it isn't) the simple and most affordable
solution will probably be a subpanel in the garage fed from a 6 gauge NM
(Romex) feeder. 6 gauge being the heaviest size NM is usually available
in, larger amperages require conduit and added installation expense. If
it is a long run of wire, or if you have plans to install a welder,
large air compressor or other shop tools you may have to spend the extra
dollars on conduit and heavier wire and install a larger (75 or 100amp)
subpanel.
Depending on where that feeder runs (it has to be derated if it runs
throught a hot attic) the subpanel and wire will be protected by a 50-75
amp breaker in the main panel. In the subpanel install a 50amp 240VAC
GFCI breakaer (common for hot tubs) connected to a NEMA 14-50 (range)
outlet. A second 20amp 120VAC GFCI breaker can be installed connected
to a standard 20amp outlet.
If the main panel is very close to or inside the garage just ask the
electrician to install the breakers and outlets described above in the
main panel.
Mark Farver
If you could have him call me and explain some of this it would be great.
2) Off that circuit, can he install a regular three-prong outlet in
the garage?
3) Does that outlet need to be a GFI outlet just in case? I want
something that will trip out if the connection somehow gets grounded.
4) Can he suggest any safety features or better ways of dealing with
the EV so that we don't worry about Ellie wandering in there on her
own and hurting herself? Plus any other suggestions or ideas.
As always, thanks in advance for any helpful ideas and comments y'all
have. :)
Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick,
Looks like it was this morning at 9am PST, or 12:00 PM (noon) EDT:
-
http://search.discovery.com/search?proxystylesheet=dscMain&site=dscContent%7CdscNews&client=dscMain&output=xml_no_dtd&filter=p&getfields=*&q=Sucking+Amps&go.x=11&go.y=11
Your search returned links in these categories:
Features 1 to 1 of 1
Discovery Channel :: Episode :: Sucking Amps
... SEP 25 2006 @ 12:00 PM. DSC Sucking Amps. Sucking Amps. Meet
the speed-hungry, rubber-burning, adrenaline-pumped electro-nerds
reinventing the electric car. ...
type: tvlistings
url:
dsc.discovery.com/tvlistings/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=24461&gid=0&cha...
size: 24k
-
-
http://tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?d=tvs&id=166030951&channels=us_DSC&lineup=us_DITV807&.intl=us
9:00am Sucking Amps TVPG, CC [PST]
-
-
http://tv.yahoo.com/tvpdb?d=tvp&id=168786438&cf=0&lineup=us_DITV807&channels=us_DSC&chspid=166030951&chname=The+Discovery+Channel&title=Sucking+Amps&progutn=1159200000&.intl=us
Sucking Amps
The Discovery Channel Sep 25 09:00am Add to My Calendar
Special/Other, 60 Mins.
You can record this program to your TiVo. Learn more...
Backyard engineers reinvent the electric car.
Original Airdate: April 22, 2004.
-
-
http://directv.com/DTVAPP/search/searchProgramGuide.jsp?_requestid=169548
Specials Showing 1-1 of 1
Title Channel Time Date Add to Favorites
01 Sucking Amps 278 DSC 12:00 PM EDT 09/25/2006
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the guys here built an a123 cap pack, it did a nice smoky burnout
but that exhausted it.
We've been talking about EEStor's claims of being able to design a
phenomenal cap pack which would make it practical to carry the
equivalent of many gallons of gasoline in capacitors. They have not
demonstrated such a device nor do they seem to claim to have built it in
a lab. While EEStor has already produced remarkable advances in caps,
it is still very questionable whether they could ever live up to their
claims. There is no product in existance today and it's simply not
reasonable to start planning a vehicle around a theoretical component at
this time. But a guy can still dream, can't he?
Danny
Michael wrote:
If I understand it correctly, cars with regen can use super caps to store
the energy from the brakes... then either feed it into the batts at a
slower recharge rate, or use it to help with the next acceleration of the
motor. This removes much of the risk from overcharging batts.
Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be www.a123systems.com
already
released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC cars. Should get
over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is possible with increased battery
weight.
--- End Message ---
