EV Digest 5920
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hot controller
by "Jack's Mail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Installation questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Switch protection
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Switch protection
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Installation questions
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: GPS as speed and distance log. 0 to 60 time measurement
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hot controller
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Switch protection
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Switch protection
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BB600/USE truck update
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Installation questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Switch protection
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What about pinion angle?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Hot controller
On 9/26/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Put the vehicle in neutral and get some RPMs. Does it
still vibrate?
I tried that but it was inconclusive. I have also jacked up the car
and put it on jack stands, and then tried it in gear (turning the rear
wheels) and out of gear, again, not really conclusive.
I have also taken out the motor and transmission, then run them
outside the car on the garage floor (with jumper cables) to see if I
can get the vibration, and have just run the motor and flywheel, and
then motor, flywheel clutch and pressure plate as a unit. That is how
I figured out that the flywheel was out of balance.
I just replaced the clutch and pressure plate this weekend, so
yesterday was the first day with all new stuff.
I also changed the motor mounts from having rubber bushings to
something which is completely solid so the motor was not torquing
around. This made the vibration more noticable, and I'm thinking I
might want to go back to the rubber bushings, and maybe have a torque
bar instead.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:10 AM
Subject: Installation questions
> My thanks to those who responded.
>
> Roland says"If there is any bare electrical
> connections or openings, I normally seal these with a
> Lexan cauking."
> I've not heard of Lexan caulk. Who makes that? Or did
> you mean latex?
I just look at the product and it call Lexel. I was working with Lexan
glass and got cross connected there.
You can get Lexel from Home Depot in small tubes in clear, black or white.
Sometime RTV will work too, but it may not stick on some plastic.
>
> "I have a GFIC circuit breaker built into the EV right
> after the input receptacle."
> This won't protect for a ground fault in the extension
> cord will it? That would seem the most likely point of
> failure. I think I saw an extension cord with GFI
> built into the source end at Home Depot.
The most common failer, is when you are charging and a battery voltage is
tracking along a conductive path from the terminal post, along the top of
the battery to the battery frame and to the vehicle frame, or if someone
touches any one of the battery terminals should trip the GFIC.
That will work, but make sure you get a 20 amp rating. Most of cord types
are 15 amp rating which you should only pull 12 amps on them.
>
> "I do not use any circuit breakers for my disconnects
> for my battery pack. I used two safety contactors that
> cuts of the battery pack from the main contactor and
> controller activated by the ignition key Square D
> glass plug in relay that is terminal strip rail
> mounted." What does this mean?
Industrial devices, relays, contactors, circuit breakers, phase relays,
current relays, terminal blocks and fuse holders with blown fuse indicators
are design to be mounted on a strip rail, which is the same backing for
making up terminal strips from No. 22 gage wire size to over 500 mcm wire
size. It's a very compact design, where you can cross connected between all
the devices, prewired it on the bench, and install the whole unit on a
chassis board or supports.
Behind my fold down dash plates, there is one of these dim rails that is
5-foot long. Every circuit in the EV is terminated there, and than cross
connected to either series or parallel the circuits as need. It is very
easy to change, add, or modified these circuits.
It is the same type of design we use on aircraft or electronic/electrical
simulator testing units.
There is a large display indicator board, that taps off each circuit that is
monitor. This indicates the status of this circuit and instantly tells me
if there is a fault. I then can bypass this circuit fault with a back up
circuit.
In 30 years, I had three faults, One was a solder in fuse that was on the
controller board. I install a external parallel fuse for that one, that I
can switch in.
The second one a 12 volt controller fuse of 4 amp and had to install a 8 amp
on that one, because the main contactor pulls about 5 amps by it self.
I was able to change these out on the go or in a minimum time of 15 minutes.
Later I was able to cross connect in a plug in rail relay that is use to
control the main contactor coil from the Zilla which now is only 0.01 amp.
Change the main contactor coil to 180 VDC coil that also only draws 0.05
amps.
The third fault was the main battery pack fuse which was in over 10 years.
Change it to the correct one which is a Bussman Company 400 amp Limitron
rating with a 200,000 amp interrupting rating that can 1000 amps surges for
about a minute. I was going up a steep hill every day at 600 amps at the
time.
Note: My CableForm contactors coils have a range of 230 volts to 11 volts.
It will hold down to 11 volts and will come on at 160 volts, which is the
minimum battery voltage for a 180 volt pack. These CableForm contactors are
design for EV'S to do this.
Terminal Rails are unassemble units you can get from Square D, General
Electric, Westinghouse, etc. companies.
>
> Thanks for the battery cleaning info.
>
> storm
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These units are normally connected across the loads, like transformers and
coils for contactor, which protects the control circuit. Some motor
controllers already have a large diodes that goes across the battery plus
and neg., sometimes call a free wheel diode.
These devices are call Zener Overvoltage Transient Suppressor Bidirectional.
NTE class for these devices are in the NTE4990 to NTE4999. Use a voltage
rating that is at least twice the voltage of the circuit.
See NTE Semiconductor.Com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:41 AM
Subject: Switch protection
> I can recall using capacitors across switches to limit
> arcing on disconnect. Now I am seeing several posts
> that suggest using diodes and even zener diodes across
> switches to remove back emf surges on opening (and
> closing?) switches. Where can I get info on this? I am
> wondering how to determine what switches need the
> protection and how to determine the values for the
> components used.
>
> Thanks,
> storm
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you're using a switch/transistor/whatever to control a coil of some
sort (solenoid, contactor, relay, etc), typically diodes (zener or
otherwise) are installed across coil terminals (in parallel with the
coil) so that the inductive kick (voltage spike) that occurs when the
field collapses upon de-energization won't feed back to the driving
transistor/switch/whatever and ruin it.
Switches, per se, don't need any protection. Your switch should be
selected to handle the voltage / current it's expected to carry, and (if
necessary) be rated to break current under load.
Only time I've seen capacitors placed across switches is for debouncing.
Storm Connors wrote:
I can recall using capacitors across switches to limit
arcing on disconnect. Now I am seeing several posts
that suggest using diodes and even zener diodes across
switches to remove back emf surges on opening (and
closing?) switches. Where can I get info on this? I am
wondering how to determine what switches need the
protection and how to determine the values for the
components used.
Thanks,
storm
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
I would be wiring the car right now if I weren't
playing email :-) so what you are trying to explain to
me is of extreme interest. I'm a little dense, I
guess.
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The most common failer, is when you are charging and
> a battery voltage is tracking along a conductive
path from the terminal post, along the top of
> the battery to the battery frame and to the vehicle
> frame,
Would this be a very "slow leak"? It would seem to be
disastrous otherwise. Also can't see why this wouldn't
be happening all the time since the charging voltage
is just a little bit over the battery voltage.
Wouldn't it be discharging the batteries?
>
> > "I do not use any circuit breakers for my
> disconnects
> > for my battery pack. I used two safety contactors
> that
> > cuts of the battery pack from the main contactor
> and
> > controller activated by the ignition key Square D
> > glass plug in relay that is terminal strip rail
> > mounted." What does this mean?
>
> Industrial devices, relays, contactors, circuit
> breakers, phase relays,
> current relays, terminal blocks and fuse holders
> with blown fuse indicators
> are design to be mounted on a strip rail, which is
> the same backing for
> making up terminal strips from No. 22 gage wire size
> to over 500 mcm wire
> size. It's a very compact design, where you can
> cross connected between all
> the devices, prewired it on the bench, and install
> the whole unit on a
> chassis board or supports.
I am trying to visualise this.
> Behind my fold down dash plates,
What is this? In engine compartment or passenger
compartment?
> there is one of
> these dim rails that is
> 5-foot long.
5 feet!! Does this basically go across the car under
or behind the dashboard? And what is a "dim rail"?
>Every circuit in the EV is terminated
> there,
Is this just the 12v circuits?
>and than cross
> connected to either series or parallel the circuits
> as need. It is very
> easy to change, add, or modified these circuits.
>
> It is the same type of design we use on aircraft or
> electronic/electrical
> simulator testing units.
>
> There is a large display indicator board, that taps
> off each circuit that is
> monitor.
Where is this display board? Under the hood or visible
to the driver?
>This indicates the status of this circuit
> and instantly tells me
> if there is a fault. I then can bypass this circuit
> fault with a back up
> circuit.
>
> Later I was able to cross connect in a plug in rail
> relay that is use to
> control the main contactor coil from the Zilla which
> now is only 0.01 amp.
> Change the main contactor coil to 180 VDC coil that
> also only draws 0.05
> amps.
I am having trouble following this, too.
>
>
> Note: My CableForm contactors coils have a range of
> 230 volts to 11 volts.
> It will hold down to 11 volts and will come on at
> 160 volts, which is the
> minimum battery voltage for a 180 volt pack. These
> CableForm contactors are
> design for EV'S to do this.
This Cableform contactor uses both pack voltage and 12
v battery to actuate the switch? If the pack voltage
drops too low they just shut down the car?
>
> Terminal Rails are unassemble units you can get from
> Square D, General
> Electric, Westinghouse, etc. companies.
I'd appreciate references or pictures that could help
me understand better. I'm envisioning a bus bar kind
of thing. Since it sounds like "where I'm at" right
now, this information is of more than theoretical
interest.
Sorry to be such a slow learner,
storm
>
>
> >
> > Thanks for the battery cleaning info.
> >
> > storm
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka,
Can you recommend any good GPS chips/devices that are serial/USB capable
that also have an on-board compass? And (preferrably) for cheap?
-- Eric
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
I have it acutally implemented already and it works quite nicely.
There are few different GPS chips which can give out already
calculated data. So not that much to be done on CPU.
The "range left" function is very useful as soon as you have very
accurate capacity calculation/estimation too.
But it takes some time to get used to 4 decimal ah count which looks
like some sort of code cracker from movies :) . Drops faster than it
actually does. I think "more information adds pain" applies here (a
saying?).
At least here (Finland) the GPS shows accurate enough numbers. Every
second I get several samples and from them the position. With one
sample I can get 4 feet off. With three samples I get it near one
feet. The route gets plotted if I wish and I can see the elevations
affect on consumption. I think we can come out with a route
calcualtion/optimization Sw for it too.
Also driving direction and speed comes out automaticly from selected
chips. Cheapest stuff ($20) USB ones might have less options to play
with. Better ones have more than you can even use.
All this is part of the Lion CCS (BMS) I'm working on.
What it comes to 0-60 things I have not yet started with that. There
will be some sort of error margin. How big... dunno yet. At least it
does not matter anymore if the front wheels does not touch ground
until 100 ft after launch...
Afterall this drag racing stuff can and should be done on track where
you have all the required equipment installed and secured enviroment.
But... so far I have not been able to drive nicely all the time with
1400 lbs car with 1k Zilla... eh..
-Jukka
fevt.com
Eric Poulsen kirjoitti:
This is a bit like measuring shaft diameter to the nearest 1/100th
using a wooden yardstick.
Why not use a racing timer?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Can a GPS be used to give 0 to 60 times? If so it could also be
used to log
altitude, distance etc. for purposes of range calculation. Hell if
you
could get it to talk to your emeter & a few other sensors like
temperature
you could get some real good data to figure energy usage. Real range
estimate before you go on your trip. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not any different than stock. The vibration is coming from the
engine/transmission somewhere I think.
The heat issue I believe was due to the fact I was in too high a gear.
Drove to work this morning, did not shift up until a way higher
speed, and sayed out of 5th, and got up to 70mph+ in 4th. In all
gears there still seems to be some sort of vibration happening around
3k rpms, but if you get through that it is back to being smooth.
On 9/26/06, Jack's Mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What about pinion angle?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: Hot controller
> On 9/26/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Put the vehicle in neutral and get some RPMs. Does it
>> still vibrate?
>
> I tried that but it was inconclusive. I have also jacked up the car
> and put it on jack stands, and then tried it in gear (turning the rear
> wheels) and out of gear, again, not really conclusive.
>
> I have also taken out the motor and transmission, then run them
> outside the car on the garage floor (with jumper cables) to see if I
> can get the vibration, and have just run the motor and flywheel, and
> then motor, flywheel clutch and pressure plate as a unit. That is how
> I figured out that the flywheel was out of balance.
>
> I just replaced the clutch and pressure plate this weekend, so
> yesterday was the first day with all new stuff.
>
> I also changed the motor mounts from having rubber bushings to
> something which is completely solid so the motor was not torquing
> around. This made the vibration more noticable, and I'm thinking I
> might want to go back to the rubber bushings, and maybe have a torque
> bar instead.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found this:
http://www.nteinc.com/Web_pgs/TransSup.html but the
data is a bit overwhelming! Is there a distillation
somewhere?
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> These units are normally connected across the loads,
> like transformers and
> coils for contactor, which protects the control
> circuit. Some motor
> controllers already have a large diodes that goes
> across the battery plus
> and neg., sometimes call a free wheel diode.
>
> These devices are call Zener Overvoltage Transient
> Suppressor Bidirectional.
>
> NTE class for these devices are in the NTE4990 to
> NTE4999. Use a voltage
> rating that is at least twice the voltage of the
> circuit.
>
> See NTE Semiconductor.Com
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 6:41 AM
> Subject: Switch protection
>
>
> > I can recall using capacitors across switches to
> limit
> > arcing on disconnect. Now I am seeing several
> posts
> > that suggest using diodes and even zener diodes
> across
> > switches to remove back emf surges on opening (and
> > closing?) switches. Where can I get info on this?
> I am
> > wondering how to determine what switches need the
> > protection and how to determine the values for the
> > components used.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > storm
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got it. Thanks. How do I select the proper diode for a
particular application?
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you're using a switch/transistor/whatever to
> control a coil of some
> sort (solenoid, contactor, relay, etc), typically
> diodes (zener or
> otherwise) are installed across coil terminals (in
> parallel with the
> coil) so that the inductive kick (voltage spike)
> that occurs when the
> field collapses upon de-energization won't feed back
> to the driving
> transistor/switch/whatever and ruin it.
>
> Switches, per se, don't need any protection. Your
> switch should be
> selected to handle the voltage / current it's
> expected to carry, and (if
> necessary) be rated to break current under load.
>
> Only time I've seen capacitors placed across
> switches is for debouncing.
>
> Storm Connors wrote:
> > I can recall using capacitors across switches to
> limit
> > arcing on disconnect. Now I am seeing several
> posts
> > that suggest using diodes and even zener diodes
> across
> > switches to remove back emf surges on opening (and
> > closing?) switches. Where can I get info on this?
> I am
> > wondering how to determine what switches need the
> > protection and how to determine the values for the
> > components used.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > storm
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It turns out that the temperature crayons are used for measuring hot
surfaces. The crayons will not write on anything when cold. Bummer.
There is also come temperature sensing liquid that McMaster carries
under part number 3261K93. But the lowest temperature available is
175F. Still useful. I was hoping to start around 125F.
The temperature dots that I've used in the past are 5952K21 at
McMaster. They start at 130F. Much better. But since they are self
adhesive they won't stick well to cruddy surfaces. 1/2" square and 21
to a pack for $7.21.
Mike
>
> The temperature crayons and the protective coating material should be
> here today. I want to watch the temperature of all of the hardware to
> see if anything is getting hot. Picked up 4 differnet temperatures.
> 113F, thru 150F.
>
> Need to make a water checking bulb for these cells too so they won't
> have to come out for level checks. Maybe one for the green tops as they
> have a deeper V and another for the red tops.
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can have multiple accounts on eBay you just cannot bid on your own items.
Don
In a message dated 9/25/2006 11:34:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
That ID was made last year, I think that it's created around the same
date as the other ID. No indication it's hijacked from another user (no
history) but it looks like a second account for the same user which is
prohibited.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BYU uses supercaps in their EV1 drag racer. Don't know what brand or
capacity, but they get the car down the strip very quickly. They pushed the
car by hand to the starting line to conserve juice. They had it at the
Power of DC a couple of years ago. They had to make their own controller
and transmission as GM had removed those before donating the car. It was
quite impressive.
Dave
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:44:09 -0700
I probably would not make it to the end of the strip if I
stomp on the throttle as if I'd race, but this is pure guess and
I didn't want to try to get stuck in the middle of the run.
But I certainly would have enough energy to make it to the end
"normally". Calculation showed the 16.8F cap bank can move me
exactly 1.6 miles at low (30 mph) speeds before voltage drops
below inverter's lowest cutoff.
When I returned to the pits, the voltage was 276V (down from 360V),
so I regretted I didn't do twice as long and impressive
burnout. Oh, well, there is always next time...
Yes, these caps would be prohibitively expensive if purchased
"normally" (if I recall, about $200/cap and I have 160 of them),
but PC2500 were out of production and Maxwell got rid of
them at $45/piece. So I go away with less than $10k bank.
If you want range, don't use the caps. Spend these money
rather on extra batteries containing energy.
Power - different story - with allowed discharge rates you
*may* get ahead with caps vs LiPo or lead, but if it worth
the expense I can't judge.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Danny Miller wrote:
Victor's capacitor burnout can be viewed here:
http://www.haritech.com/
He did not do a proper run because I believe the caps would have petered
out before getting him up to an impressive speed. That was an enormously
expensive capacitor bank too, Maxwell Boostcaps I believe. But hey, just
ask Victor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack,
Cycle life is just like any other numbers game. If they cycle it only
to 30% dod then how meaningful is that to you? 100% dod may end up
with 100 cycles. It's not about trust, it's about fitting that
technology to your needs. The only way to know regardless of chemistry
and claims, is to test the hell out of them to see if they will work
in your application.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Where do you get confidence that a123 cells have a 2000 cycle life?
> That takes over 6 months to test with 24x7 charge/discharge (if my sons
> & I math is right :)
> Frankly, by the time the NiMH cells are dying in 2-3 years, new battery
> technology and lower prices would almost certainly be the case so you'd
> want to replace them anyway, with some 3500v caps :) so I'm not too
> concerned about cycle life over a lower initial cost. I liken this to
> compact florescents last "3 years", but I replace them within a few
> months in some cases..or I smash them on accident and my
"investment" is
> gone.
> IB says 800 cycles for the D-Cells, did they make it up? Or we trust
> A123, but not IB to give valid numbers?
> Jack
>
> Dmitri Hurik wrote:
> > I apologize about wrong facts about YT. But ok, a Typical NiMH cell
> > doing 800? Not fair comparison either. The typical I've seen on 99%
> > non-ev, low-cost cells such as SubC / D are 400-500 cycles. More
costly
> > but better quality will do more(like Saft), but that's not "typical"
> > Example: http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/5936/cyclehy3.gif
HED-9000
> > cell, source: Suppo Battery, about 400 cycles.
> >
> > And NiMH manuals I've seen advise AGAINST parallel charging.
> >
> > And I agree with what Mike said:
> >
> > Typically whoever makes a good sub-c is not a candidate for making a
> > good D cell. Rechargable D cells are a long forgotten cell type. So
> > serious testing is the only way you'll know anything.
> >
> > In order to parallel nimh you must be able to separate the strings
> > occasionally for equalizing. So making that sub for a YT is going to
> > be fun.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 2:42 PM
> > Subject: Re: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps
> > available?
> >
> >
> >> Dmitri,
> >>
> >> Please check your facts before posting. You are comparing the
> >> theoritical best case on the lead acid with the practical worse case
> >> on the Nimh. It is not only unfair, it is not even realistic.
> >>
> >> 50 Ah at 1C rate for an YT?! You must be dreaming. And, you still
> >> get 500 cycles? I doubt that this is even possible in the ideal lab
> >> condition. I have tested near 200 YT's, none could do more than
45 Ah
> >> even after an extensive break-in. Most could only do about 30Ah if
> >> you do not wake them up slowly.
> >>
> >> For a fairer comparison, a typical Nimh cell could do >800 cycles at
> >> 100% DOD at 1C rate before dropping below 80% of its original
> >> capacity. And, charging them is far easier than charging LiIon.
Nimh
> >> batteries are designed to handle some overcharge.
> >>
> >> On 9/25/06, Dmitri Hurik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well at $5 a piece I get $462 per kwh for these.
> >>> Yellowtops 24ah? Whaat? From the numbers I've seen they are about
> >>> 50ah at 1
> >>> hour rate.
> >>> If they are $160, then I get $266 per kwh for YTs.
> >>>
> >>> And these NIMH cells typically don't last longer than 500 cycles,
> >>> which is
> >>> not really any longer than lead acid. So your NIMH will cost about
> >>> twice as
> >>> much as lead acid. Is it worth the weight savings, but double
price?
> >>> Your
> >>> call.
> >>>
> >>> And competitive with A123? I say no. Bare IB9000 cells you say
are $5 a
> >>> piece so $462/kwh. You can get A123 cells on eBay for $1350 per
kwh in
> >>> DeWalt packs right now. That is not 3-4, more like 2-3 times the
> >>> cost. Then,
> >>> say you actually buy these A123 cells in bulk without those DeWalt
> >>> packs,
> >>> you might have $1000/kwh or less. And then, the IB9000 cells will
> >>> last about
> >>> 500 cycles, where the A123 cells will easily last 2000 cycles
> >>> according to
> >>> a123, and should even last 3000+ cycles, are lighter and way more
> >>> powerful(30C cont and 80C long pulse, 100C short pulse). So the
A123
> >>> cells
> >>> actually come out cheaper over their lifetime. And keep in mind
these
> >>> are D
> >>> size NiMH cells, which are usually way less powerful than the Sub-C
> >>> cells
> >>> per kg. If you are smart, you should pick A123 instead. No point at
> >>> all in
> >>> these NiMHs. And charging NiMH isn't going to be any easier.
They need a
> >>> different charging algorithm, unlike the CC/CV of Li-ion and
lead acid.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:42 AM
> >>> Subject: IB9000 NiMH Re: Currently most powerful bats or caps
available?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> > Intellect has a new 9Ah NiMH D-cell battery.
> >>> > I haven't seen them mentioned on the list.
> >>> >
> >>> > They can handle 10C discharge (90amps), and 2C (18amp) charge
rates,
> >>> > weight is 175g. The key feature is the price, only $5-6 ea!
> >>> >
> >>> > This basically makes them competitive to the lithium A123 M1
cells
> >>> at > much
> >>> > less cost. The M1's are 70g for 2.3Ah at 3.3V, so 280g (4 cells)
> >>> for > 9Ah,
> >>> > the IB9000 weighs 525g for 3-cells at 3.6v, so the M1's are
roughly
> >>> > half
> >>> > the weight, but 3-4 times the cost.
> >>> >
> >>> > Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, and you guys
tell
> >>> me > not
> >>> > to go more than 50% dod, so really just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg,
price is
> >>> > about $160.
> >>> > 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> >>> > That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
> >>> >
> >>> > I will be testing, and will probably be importing some
quantity of
> >>> them
> >>> > if they perform as advertised.
> >>> >
> >>> > Jack
> >>> >
> >>> > Dmitri Hurik wrote:
> >>> >> Super caps will Not give 20 miles.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Pretty much the most powerful batteries would be
www.a123systems.com
> >>> >> already released and other high power lithium-polymer used in RC
> >>> cars.
> >>> >> Should get over 1000 HP, I suppose 2000 HP or more is
possible with
> >>> >> increased battery weight.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ryan Stotts" >>
> >>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> >> To: "EVDL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> >> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 4:13 PM
> >>> >> Subject: Currently most powerful bats or caps available?
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Any ultra or super caps available that can get ~20+ miles of
range?
> >>> >>> What kind of power output?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> How about on the battery front?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> How much hp can be had from a 348V pack with currently available
> >>> >>> energy storage devices?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Anyone have any inside info on any products that are on the
verge of
> >>> >>> actually being released?
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Edward Ang
> >> President
> >> AIR Lab Corp
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: Installation questions
> Roland,
> I would be wiring the car right now if I weren't
> playing email :-) so what you are trying to explain to
> me is of extreme interest. I'm a little dense, I
> guess.
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > The most common failer, is when you are charging and
> > a battery voltage is tracking along a conductive
> path from the terminal post, along the top of
> > the battery to the battery frame and to the vehicle
> > frame,
>
> Would this be a very "slow leak"? It would seem to be
> disastrous otherwise. Also can't see why this wouldn't
> be happening all the time since the charging voltage
> is just a little bit over the battery voltage.
> Wouldn't it be discharging the batteries?
Yes, when battery vents it may increase the conductive path. You can test
this out by placing one lead of a volt meter on the post and the other lead
on the plastic top of the battery. Move the lead on the top of battery and
you will see the voltage increase or decrease.
This voltage will be at the voltage of the battery (12 volt battery if not
charging). If you are charging, this voltage will be at the at or about the
battery charger voltage. In my case, I can read any voltage from 200 to 230
volts on a very conductive path on a battery.
> >
>
> > > "I do not use any circuit breakers for my
> > disconnects
> > > for my battery pack. I used two safety contactors
> > that
> > > cuts of the battery pack from the main contactor
> > and
> > > controller activated by the ignition key Square D
> > > glass plug in relay that is terminal strip rail
> > > mounted." What does this mean?
> >
> > Industrial devices, relays, contactors, circuit
> > breakers, phase relays,
> > current relays, terminal blocks and fuse holders
> > with blown fuse indicators
> > are design to be mounted on a strip rail, which is
> > the same backing for
> > making up terminal strips from No. 22 gage wire size
> > to over 500 mcm wire
> > size. It's a very compact design, where you can
> > cross connected between all
> > the devices, prewired it on the bench, and install
> > the whole unit on a
> > chassis board or supports.
>
> I am trying to visualise this.
DIN rails are steel tracks that you can mount snap on terminal blocks or
devices of any size. It is not a fix unit. They are unassemble units that
you can construct in any configuration you want.
>
> > Behind my fold down dash plates,
>
> What is this? In engine compartment or passenger
> compartment?
There is one terminal block strip under the dash plates in the passenger
compartment, several in the motor compartment, several in the equipment
conpartments for the battery chargers, contactor and fuse compartments.
There is a wire way that travels through the center of the vehicle, which
carries all the wiring in conduits and spare empty conduits from one end to
the other.
If wire label A is on the motor bay terminal block, it is the same wire A in
the passenger compartment and wire A in the equipment compartment. You
connect from A to A to A terminal block with the same wire. Then you come
off that terminal point to the device it needs to go to.
>
> > there is one of
> > these dim rails that is
> > 5-foot long.
>
> 5 feet!! Does this basically go across the car under
> or behind the dashboard? And what is a "dim rail"?
A DIN rail is a steel bar that holds terminal blocks or any device that is
design to clamp onto.
>
> >Every circuit in the EV is terminated
> > there,
>
> Is this just the 12v circuits?
These terminal blocks and devices are all rated at 600 V. The wiring is
also rated at 600 volts at 90 C. The wire insulation is a little thicker
for enclosure and chassis work while the other is a thinner type for pulling
into conduits.
The terminal blocks have dividers on them, so I may have 12 VDC on one
section, 180 VDC in another, and 120-240 VAC in another section. Each wire
bundle voltage rating are conduit separate to keep additional seperation.
This is not so critical, as all the wiring I used is 600 volt rated.
Note: It is best not to use 12 VDC rated auto wiring you can get from a auto
parts store.
>
> >and than cross
> > connected to either series or parallel the circuits
> > as need. It is very
> > easy to change, add, or modified these circuits.
> >
> > It is the same type of design we use on aircraft or
> > electronic/electrical
> > simulator testing units.
> >
> > There is a large display indicator board, that taps
> > off each circuit that is
> > monitor.
>
> Where is this display board? Under the hood or visible
> to the driver?
All indicators is visible to the driver. If you have a source to a Air Force
Savage yard, as I did, I pick up a display console for a F-16. All I had to
do, was change the words that are place behind this panel.
You can also make one two.
I use a type writer type of tape writer to print out the words on a clear
tape that has a adhesive backing.
Install these labels on a clear LEXAN plastic sheet that is mar resistance.
Go to Home Depot and pick up one of those fluorescent light fixtures plastic
glass lens, that have those little 1/2 x 1/2 inch waffle type squares.
While you are there, pick up a can of flat black spray paint that is design
for plastic. I use the paint call Fusion. This is use to paint the waffle
type grill which are normally white.
Cut out some of the sections of the waffle type grills and place it under
the Lexan glass so as to separate each word.
Install LED's that may be Green for normal operation, Yellow for Caution and
Red for danger, on a separate plastic sheet that is also painted flat black.
This is place over the waffle grill which is behind the Lexan clear plastic
sheet that holds the words of the devices that you want to monitor.
Place another sheet of Mar resistance Black Lexan plastic sheet over the
labels.
You now have a indicator, that read out what circuit is activated or a
circuit that is going in fault.
To see some of these components, see:
http://www.squared.com
Roland
>
> >This indicates the status of this circuit
> > and instantly tells me
> > if there is a fault. I then can bypass this circuit
> > fault with a back up
> > circuit.
> >
>
> > Later I was able to cross connect in a plug in rail
> > relay that is use to
> > control the main contactor coil from the Zilla which
> > now is only 0.01 amp.
> > Change the main contactor coil to 180 VDC coil that
> > also only draws 0.05
> > amps.
>
> I am having trouble following this, too.
> >
>
> >
> > Note: My CableForm contactors coils have a range of
> > 230 volts to 11 volts.
> > It will hold down to 11 volts and will come on at
> > 160 volts, which is the
> > minimum battery voltage for a 180 volt pack. These
> > CableForm contactors are
> > design for EV'S to do this.
>
> This Cableform contactor uses both pack voltage and 12
> v battery to actuate the switch? If the pack voltage
> drops too low they just shut down the car?
> >
> > Terminal Rails are unassembled units you can get from
> > Square D, General
> > Electric, Westinghouse, etc. companies.
>
> I'd appreciate references or pictures that could help
> me understand better. I'm envisioning a bus bar kind
> of thing. Since it sounds like "where I'm at" right
> now, this information is of more than theoretical
> interest.
>
> Sorry to be such a slow learner,
> storm
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks for the battery cleaning info.
> > >
> > > storm
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, assuming you're powering a 12V coil @ 13.8V, as per
http://www.nteinc.com/specs/4900to4999/pdf/nte4903_99.pdf#search=%22bidirectional%20transient%20suppressor%22
and Roland's suggestion, you could use a 4937 would work.
Storm Connors wrote:
Got it. Thanks. How do I select the proper diode for a
particular application?
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you're using a switch/transistor/whatever to
control a coil of some
sort (solenoid, contactor, relay, etc), typically
diodes (zener or
otherwise) are installed across coil terminals (in
parallel with the
coil) so that the inductive kick (voltage spike)
that occurs when the
field collapses upon de-energization won't feed back
to the driving
transistor/switch/whatever and ruin it.
Switches, per se, don't need any protection. Your
switch should be
selected to handle the voltage / current it's
expected to carry, and (if
necessary) be rated to break current under load.
Only time I've seen capacitors placed across
switches is for debouncing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust, just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without more
knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few things that
is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I emailed the company and received a reply. I have posted this at:
http://www.electricsmart.com/knockoff.htm
Interesting to say the least. I'll keep everyone updated.
Pedroman
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
There is a link at the bottom of the item to report the item- Ihave
reported him several times, I guess ebay does not care.
On Sep 25, 2006, at 11:03 PM, Tom Watson wrote:
Something really isn't right here!
I found out after trying to contact the seller of earlier ebay add
that lhscheer91 the seller has disappeared now there is another name
that comes up ... I think he had hijacked the account and got caught!
he has now migrated to the other id(probably also hijacked!)jayreal50
(0) the same ID who bid on the earlier add and I'd bet the first
few(or maby all) bids on these new adds were from other hijacked
accounts of his... imagine buying a car for 7000 that you can't look
at and the seller has 0 rating! and he never reply's to the questions
through ebay! He has taken his photo's from a chinese web page. he
fudges his discription and again gives no vin number. he also doubles
his adds and he want's to be paid by certified check or money order.
I hope no one has gotten caught up in the bs from this guy. Yikes!
Does anybody know what those knockoff smart cars sell for from that
chinese company? he is obviously fishing trying to put together a
realistic add that won't be realized(notice his "adjustments")
T
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Now we know where the images were taken. All the e-bay photos are on
their website. Why would they advertise the car in Kansas, unless
they import them 1 at a time under personal exemption and are trying
to sell them individually. Of course this country wouldn't be
friendly to them flooding our streets with cheap efficient vehicles.
If they don't cost $1million to build our big manufacturers think
they shouldn't be on the street. I hope that if someone looks at
this
car in Kansas they can get a feel if the marketing tactic is legit.
----- Original Message -----
From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:10 am
Subject: Re: If you liked the "Strange EV on eBay" thread...
To: [email protected]
Well then, you might wet yourself here:
www.cmec-sz.com
Nice to see the GM Electric Car in production
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
you'll love these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=120034842609
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=120034844199
(or http://tinyurl.com/qzdff and http://tinyurl.com/q7fcr)
Check out the "new" images. Enough said.
Cheers,
Claudio
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
