EV Digest 5921
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Installation questions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Matt's got his EV grin!
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Open Source Designs for Controllers
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Pat Mackey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Matt's got his EV grin!
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Work on Alpine ?
by "Dr. Andy Mars" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC vs DC?
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) OT was Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) OT - E-Mail Threads - was: RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: OT - E-Mail Threads - was: RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Hot controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) electric conversion on ebay
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: OT - E-Mail Threads - was: RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
I painted the 86 Suzuki Samurai yesterday which marks
the turning point. I'm nearing the point where I can
stop repairing and restoring an old car and start
building an electric. I'd like to run several ideas by
you folks with some experience before I do something
dumb.
I have 5 battery boxes made of 1/16" sheet steel
installed under the floor of the cabin. One holds 4
batteries, one holds one battery and 3 hold 2
batteries each. (That should cure the tipiness!) The
plan is to connect them with 1" PVC conduit since some
of the wire will be inside the cabin and the rest
exposed beneath the car.
Provided you're using PVC electrical conduit an not water pipe.
I located some computer slot 45 CFM squirrel cage fans
which would seem to be ideal as exhaust fans while
charging. One on each box venting under the car.
I would like a manual disconnect for the battery pack.
The two thoughts are a breaker or a way of pulling the
fuse out of the fuseholder. Some seem to feel that the
breaker is not a great idea (and they are expensive.)
I have not been able to locate a fuseholder, and am
wondering if it would create a connection problem-
like extra resistance, heating or whatever. Perhaps
there is a manual switch that will handle the
amperage? I don't anticipate engaging or disengaging
it under load unless there is an emergency. How big
would a knife switch have to be to carry the 400 amps?
Manual disconnects should be able to interrupt current _under load_,
especially for emergency situations. Also, you should have a fuse that
is capable of "current limiting," like a good Ferraz Shawmut. In theory
(maybe someone can testify to practice), a fuse can continue to conduct
after it's filament has become plasma.
I wouldn't recommend "pulling a fuse." Get a good DC circuit breaker
that's up to the task. This generally means you'll need a Heinemann.
Heinemann Ckt Breaker:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=1069&product_id=1451
Fuse:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=373&product_id=1441
You'll often see good deals on Heinemann breakers on Ebay, although you
should do your research thoroughly, or ask the list before purchasing.
In fact, this is the model I bought: http://tinyurl.com/qxyd7
Be sure to confirm with the seller that it is the "slow trip" curve (-01
suffix for Heinnemans)
After seeing the battery boxes in the car, I'm
thinking I had better drill some drain holes in them.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dead Link...
Pedroman:
I emailed the company and received a reply. I have posted this at:
http://www.electricsmart.com/knockoff.htm
Interesting to say the least. I'll keep everyone updated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC. All
the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will change
with demand.
Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I would
weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing "purely"
AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and DC
systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
purchase today:
AC
- regen
- can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
connections
- wider power band
- can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
- somewhat more expensive
- Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
DC
- most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing cars)
- can get higher power systems cheaper
- entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
- lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
fuses, contactors and breakers
- huge torque off the get go
- Warp and ADC are DC motors
- ADC and Zilla are controllers
Then there is looking at manufacturers:
Siemens AC motor/controllers
- OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
- liquid cooled
- programmable
- easy to set up
Zilla Controllers
- made for EVs
- programmable
- can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
- very powerful
- liquid cooled
Warp/ADC Motors
- the "standard" dc motor
- air cooled
- fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AC vs DC?
Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
personally.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this, although
I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want to
understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
>than
DC in an EV.
Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
expensive? Are there other limitations?
It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
cost/performance battery solution is.
Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up to
at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
seconds car would drive me insane.
Suggestions anyone?
Thanks,
Mike (the new guy)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
Michael Trefry wrote:
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust, just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without more
knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few things that
is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what does this circuit do?
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 9/26/06, Mark McCurdy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > 0-o
> > I saved the gif and opened it in photoshop
> > I clipped the top right corner and made a jpg out
> of it
>
> Jpeg compression generally makes this kind of thing
> a lot worse. Use
> GIF or PNG which gives you back the same bitmap that
> you put in.
>
> > I didn't change the resolution
> >
>
http://members.cox.net/junkymagi/page12-toprightcorner.jpg
> > tell me, you can really read that 1N number? the
> resistor value to the left
> > of it?
>
> 1N6818. 0.6 Ohms.
> Yeah, some of it's a little fuzzy, but if you were
> actually going to
> build it, it's useable.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric, what e-mail client are you using? The problem you describe does
not affect Outlook 2003...
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
Michael Trefry wrote:
> I found my donor car!!!!
>
> And I'm picking it up this weekend.
>
> A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust,
just a
> spot on the engine mount bar.
>
> Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without
more
> knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few
things that
> is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
>
> So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
> installing an electric heater.
>
> What do you folks use in your EVs?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jude! I will definitely have a lot of questions.
My daughter is two (will be three in a couple of weeks!), so I have
high hopes. My wife had a hand in the naming, and it now strikes me
as a bit girlie, but it was chosen with some care.
My wife thought the truck should have a "spritely" name. Not sure
exactly why. Maybe the buzzing of the charger? I thought of puck,
but he was a troublemaker. Then I remembered that sylphs are
wood-fairies or sometimes air elemental sprites. That seemed to fit
for an eco-friendly vehicle. The name Ariel comes from a variation
of the word "air", so it seems like a good name for an clean-air
truck. Plus, going back to Shakespeare, Ariel was a key player in
"The Tempest". To quote a wikipedia article:
"Ariel, much like Puck in A Midsummer Night's Dream, is given many of
the play's most lyrical passages, which are sung by Ariel to befuddle
and enchant the other characters."
And so, I hope Ariel's quietly singing electric motor will enchant
many folks into learning more about EVs and befuddle Oilies.
There is also another sylph named Ariel in Alexander Pope's "The Rape
of the Lock". One passage goes:
" Ev'n then, before the fatal Engine clos'd,
A wretched Sylph too fondly interpos'd;
Fate urged the Sheers, and cut the Sylph in twain,
(But Airy Substance soon unites again) "
Which I think perfectly describes how the mechanical problems that
often besiege cars won't be bothering Ariel. :)
Matt
Congratulation, Matt! Welcome to the club.
We're here for you if you have any questions. And I like the name; I
don't think your daughter can come up with anything cuter, unless she's
under the age of 5.
Jude
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I purchased a small 12volt electric heater with a built in fan, that I
thought would work well, but it was woefully under powered, both from
a heat output (I think it was 300 watts), and the fan was rather
crappy.
I just ordered a 120 volt heater core from evparts.com, and have some
high volume 12volt fans, which I'm going to hookup for heat (mostly
for defrost). I'll let you know how it goes.
On 9/26/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/26/06, mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
what does this circuit do?
This circuit?
http://members.cox.net/junkymagi/page12-toprightcorner.jpg
Well it says "12V supply". It's an RC filter with a Zener to protect
against spikes, and a reverse protection diode where they've used a
Schottky.
So it smoothes the car's 12V before it goes to the DC-DC converter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have any sources for the DC brushless systems I'd sure
appreciate a link for my own education.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless
DC. All
> the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and
power
> density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that
will change
> with demand.
>
>
> Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought
I would
> weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing
"purely"
> AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC
and DC
> systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
> purchase today:
>
> AC
> - regen
> - can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
> connections
> - wider power band
> - can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
> - somewhat more expensive
> - Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
>
>
> DC
> - most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag
racing cars)
> - can get higher power systems cheaper
> - entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
> - lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
> fuses, contactors and breakers
> - huge torque off the get go
> - Warp and ADC are DC motors
> - ADC and Zilla are controllers
>
>
> Then there is looking at manufacturers:
>
> Siemens AC motor/controllers
> - OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
> - liquid cooled
> - programmable
> - easy to set up
>
>
> Zilla Controllers
> - made for EVs
> - programmable
> - can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
> - very powerful
> - liquid cooled
>
> Warp/ADC Motors
> - the "standard" dc motor
> - air cooled
> - fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
>
>
> Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michael Trefry
> Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: AC vs DC?
>
> Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who
emailed me
> personally.
>
> I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this,
although
> I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
>
> I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I
want to
> understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific
technology.
>
>
> >From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
> >than
> DC in an EV.
>
> Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
> expensive? Are there other limitations?
>
> It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this
talk I'm
> seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
> cost/performance battery solution is.
>
> Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to
get up to
> at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
> seconds car would drive me insane.
>
> Suggestions anyone?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike (the new guy)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As my note stated it was within the context of: "comparing the currently
available hobbyists AC and DC systems"
Are there any brushless DC systems available today for hobbyist EVs that
don't cost $30k?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: September 26, 2006 9:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: AC vs DC?
All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC. All
the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will change
with demand.
Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I would
weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing "purely"
AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and DC
systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
purchase today:
AC
- regen
- can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
connections
- wider power band
- can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
- somewhat more expensive
- Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
DC
- most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing cars)
- can get higher power systems cheaper
- entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
- lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
fuses, contactors and breakers
- huge torque off the get go
- Warp and ADC are DC motors
- ADC and Zilla are controllers
Then there is looking at manufacturers:
Siemens AC motor/controllers
- OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
- liquid cooled
- programmable
- easy to set up
Zilla Controllers
- made for EVs
- programmable
- can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
- very powerful
- liquid cooled
Warp/ADC Motors
- the "standard" dc motor
- air cooled
- fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AC vs DC?
Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
personally.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this, although
I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want to
understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
>than
DC in an EV.
Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
expensive? Are there other limitations?
It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
cost/performance battery solution is.
Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up to
at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
seconds car would drive me insane.
Suggestions anyone?
Thanks,
Mike (the new guy)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I'm also a newbie on the list and considering a 914 conversion.
AC seems to fit the bill for me, so that's where I'm leaning...
I'm in the SF Bay Area and for that reason going with the Electro Automotive
kit - since they are local I can save on shipping and drop in for occasional
advice.
If you are in the area, Electro Automotive is giving a free workshop on
conversions October 1st in Cupertino.
http://www.electroauto.com/workshop.shtml
Hope to see you there.
=Pat
----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 9:34:10 AM
Subject: Found my donor car - needs heat
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust, just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without more
knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few things that
is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, try again
Pedroman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2
Dead Link...
Pedroman:
I emailed the company and received a reply. I have posted this at:
http://www.electricsmart.com/knockoff.htm
Interesting to say the least. I'll keep everyone updated.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 4 year old daughter calls my EV "The Magic Car". My other project
car (Porche Speedster replica), was rather loud, which she did not
like, and my EV is really quiet and maybe magical to a 4 year old who
only knows loud cars... She calls the speedster the "Blue Car",
because, yes, it's blue. And guess what, both names stuck. Kids
always pick the best names :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, Gadget,
Just wanted to touch base with you now that you are probably well settled
back in LA LA LAnd after Burning Man -
The Alpine is driving well, overall -
I really, though, want to get gauges on there to be able to properly monitor
how much I am drawing from the batteries while driving and how much I have
left on the batteries -
Also, I'd appreciate your help with that mirror situation I showed you -
I could further benefit by a lesson from you on how to use the reg's -
And, since I got the car back from you, the stereo is not working, the dash
lights are not working, and the below-glove-box-auxiliary light is not
working - I suspect that something somewhere was disconnected accidentally
when you were doing the great work that you did? -
Wondering when you might have time to take care of all this? - is it
something you can just come and do here at one shot? - or is it something
for which you will need the car at your shop? -
Looking forward to your e-ply -
Thanks -
Until next INTERNEcTion -
Take care (and spread it around) -
Peace,
Andy
P.S. - The guy who bought the company from Cloud has been unable to locate
the manual - it seems that Cloud must have kept it for some reason.
P.P.S. - Will Roy be coming down any time soon?
Andy Mars, Ph.D.
"Helping make a difference in the lives of kids - helping kids make a
difference in life."
Educational Consulting, Counseling, & Tutoring - & New Private School
Opening in About Two Years
www.MarsAcademy.org
Summer & Winter Camp Programs
www.CampExploration.org
Weekend Community Service Projects
www.KidsMakeADifference.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you plan to drive it as an ICE for a bit, it is probably worth
looking at the original heating system. There is a good chance it is
just a heater door or cable sticking. There is a chance a heater
problem could make the ICE overheat, so it is worth looking at.
The fact that the Porsche has two heater inlets allows for some
creative ideas for electrical heat:
* You could have a separate heater on each side of the car, for "his
and hers" climate control, and more overall heat.
* You could blow air out the drivers side, and suck it into the
passengers side, for recirculating heat.
* You could blow heat into the driver's side, suck it into the
passenger vents, and in the engine compartment have a heat exchanger.
Then you have the best of both worlds, recirculating heat, and fresh
dry air to keep the windows clear.
* I'm not sure how well this would work, but maybe a long, thin
heater could be inserted down each heater air tube (like maybe wires
from an electric blanket?). Then you could run the stock heater
system almost unmodified.
* Like the EV1, a thermostat that turns on the heat while the car is
still on charge, maybe 1/2 hour before departure, would be really
cool (well, actually, really warm).
* A key fob that turns on the heater as you walk up to the car would
be neat.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brushless DC is an AC system, usually the term refers to permanent
magnet rotor AC system. It is not nescesarily more efficient than an
induction AC system. At peak power it's usually more efficient but at
partial load it's less efficient due to the inability to control the
field strength (permanent magnet) which leads to excessive iron
losses. The permanent magnet rotor can be made lighter than a
induction rotor though.
On 9/26/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As my note stated it was within the context of: "comparing the currently
available hobbyists AC and DC systems"
Are there any brushless DC systems available today for hobbyist EVs that
don't cost $30k?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: September 26, 2006 9:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: AC vs DC?
All excellent points, however, you forgot one category: Brushless DC. All
the features of the AC systems, with better efficiency, torque, and power
density. Prohibitively expensive at this time, I know, but that will change
with demand.
Since this does not seem like the typical AC vs DC debate, I thought I would
weigh in. One thing to note though: we are not really comparing "purely"
AC to DC motors, but comparing the currently available hobbyists AC and DC
systems. So here is my pro and con list based on what we can readily
purchase today:
AC
- regen
- can use higher voltages - smaller wires, but more batteries and more
connections
- wider power band
- can hold on hills without causing brush burnout
- somewhat more expensive
- Siemens, MES and Solectria are all AC systems
DC
- most powerful available to hobbyists (current leader in drag racing cars)
- can get higher power systems cheaper
- entry level is inexpensive on a weight & power basis
- lower voltage means less batteries and connections, but bigger wires,
fuses, contactors and breakers
- huge torque off the get go
- Warp and ADC are DC motors
- ADC and Zilla are controllers
Then there is looking at manufacturers:
Siemens AC motor/controllers
- OEM quality, water proof, well built, made for automotive applications
- liquid cooled
- programmable
- easy to set up
Zilla Controllers
- made for EVs
- programmable
- can drive dual motors for electronic transmission
- very powerful
- liquid cooled
Warp/ADC Motors
- the "standard" dc motor
- air cooled
- fork list motor used successfully in many, many EVs
Hmm, well that should get a few replies!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: September 25, 2006 5:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AC vs DC?
Thanks to those who took the time to welcome me, and those who emailed me
personally.
I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to build this, although
I think I'm sold on the 914 (I Love those cars!)
I may still go for the kit offered at evparts or electroauto, but I want to
understand my options before I nail myself down to a specific technology.
>From some of the reading I've been doing AC seems to be more efficient
>than
DC in an EV.
Are there disadvantages to using an AC system? Is it more complex,
expensive? Are there other limitations?
It looks like 6v fla batteries are pretty standard, but all this talk I'm
seeing about batteries is making me curious about what the best
cost/performance battery solution is.
Ideally I'd like to get at least 60 miles on a charge, be able to get up to
at least 85mph and have some decent acceleration. I think a 0-60 in 20
seconds car would drive me insane.
Suggestions anyone?
Thanks,
Mike (the new guy)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I thought that changing the Subject would de-link it from the
previous message.
I will create new mails from this point.
Sorry :(
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
Michael Trefry wrote:
> I found my donor car!!!!
>
> And I'm picking it up this weekend.
>
> A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust, just
a
> spot on the engine mount bar.
>
> Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without more
> knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few things
that
> is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
>
> So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
> installing an electric heater.
>
> What do you folks use in your EVs?
>
> Mike
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I'm using Thunderbird 2.0a1. In OL03, If you turn on a threaded view
(View --> Arrange By --> Conversation), you'll likely see what I'm
speaking of.
It's not a problem with the email client -- it's a problem with how it's
used.If you click "reply" on a message, then you _are replying_ to that
message as far as your email client (and others) are concerned. When
using the reply button, the outgoing message actually has a
"In-Reply-To: <unique message id>" header added to it so that it is
linked to the original message. In email clients that have threaded (or
"conversation") view turned on, this shows messages _and their replies_
as a tree view of messages and their responses.
In practice, this means that someone's new thread "barges into" an
existing thread, and also (in my case) I often don't even see some
ongoing threads because they're "buried" in an existing thread that I
don't care about.
Almost all email clients have a "flat" message view turned on by default
when first installed, which simply shows messages as a flat list with no
regard to their threaded links.
I find it odd that it is immediately assumed it's a bug in the mail
client, rather than considering that a "reply" is exactly that.
Grigg. John wrote:
Eric, what e-mail client are you using? The problem you describe does
not affect Outlook 2003...
John
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
Michael Trefry wrote:
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little rust,
just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Running is great, since I'm not yet ready to start on this without
more
knowledge and info, but winter is coming soon and one of the few
things that
is wrong with this car is that the heat doesn't work.
So for my first electrical project with this car, I was thinking of
installing an electric heater.
What do you folks use in your EVs?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For brushless DC:
http://www.uqm.com/
http://www.hbdindustries.com/images/Powertec_Motors_18797.pdf
Cost??????? Probably very high.
http://www.variabletorquemotors.com/index.html
No endorsements from me, just sources as you requested.
Jeff
Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If you have any sources for the DC brushless systems I'd sure
appreciate a link for my own education.
Mike
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kinda like this one? ;-)
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Poulsen wrote
> ...
> In practice, this means that someone's new thread "barges into" an
> existing thread,....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric, I have always used Conversation sorting. I just replied with this
e-mail using the old thread to test it. -- John
Eric Said:
I'm using Thunderbird 2.0a1. In OL03, If you turn on a threaded view
(View --> Arrange By --> Conversation), you'll likely see what I'm
speaking of.
It's not a problem with the email client -- it's a problem with how it's
used.If you click "reply" on a message, then you _are replying_ to that
message as far as your email client (and others) are concerned. When
using the reply button, the outgoing message actually has a
"In-Reply-To: <unique message id>" header added to it so that it is
linked to the original message. In email clients that have threaded (or
"conversation") view turned on, this shows messages _and their replies_
as a tree view of messages and their responses.
In practice, this means that someone's new thread "barges into" an
existing thread, and also (in my case) I often don't even see some
ongoing threads because they're "buried" in an existing thread that I
don't care about.
Almost all email clients have a "flat" message view turned on by default
when first installed, which simply shows messages as a flat list with no
regard to their threaded links.
I find it odd that it is immediately assumed it's a bug in the mail
client, rather than considering that a "reply" is exactly that.
Grigg. John wrote:
> Eric, what e-mail client are you using? The problem you describe does
> not affect Outlook 2003...
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
>
> Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
>
> Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
> existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
> clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Test works. These all come back as separate conversations, even Mike's
silly reply. --- John
Eric, I have always used Conversation sorting. I just replied with this
e-mail using the old thread to test it. -- John
Eric Said:
I'm using Thunderbird 2.0a1. In OL03, If you turn on a threaded view
(View --> Arrange By --> Conversation), you'll likely see what I'm
speaking of.
It's not a problem with the email client -- it's a problem with how it's
used.If you click "reply" on a message, then you _are replying_ to that
message as far as your email client (and others) are concerned. When
using the reply button, the outgoing message actually has a
"In-Reply-To: <unique message id>" header added to it so that it is
linked to the original message. In email clients that have threaded (or
"conversation") view turned on, this shows messages _and their replies_
as a tree view of messages and their responses.
In practice, this means that someone's new thread "barges into" an
existing thread, and also (in my case) I often don't even see some
ongoing threads because they're "buried" in an existing thread that I
don't care about.
Almost all email clients have a "flat" message view turned on by default
when first installed, which simply shows messages as a flat list with no
regard to their threaded links.
I find it odd that it is immediately assumed it's a bug in the mail
client, rather than considering that a "reply" is exactly that.
Grigg. John wrote:
> Eric, what e-mail client are you using? The problem you describe does
> not affect Outlook 2003...
>
> John
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 10:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
>
> Mike, what does this have to do with suppression diodes?
>
> Please make a new message for new topics rather than replying to
> existing threads. Hitting reply links your reply to the message you
> clicked on, and it appears in the "Switch protection" thread.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use 25 to 30 in first. 45 to 50 in second and third will do 70. This is
a Ford Aspire. 144vdc Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: Hot controller
> Not any different than stock. The vibration is coming from the
> engine/transmission somewhere I think.
>
> The heat issue I believe was due to the fact I was in too high a gear.
> Drove to work this morning, did not shift up until a way higher
> speed, and sayed out of 5th, and got up to 70mph+ in 4th. In all
> gears there still seems to be some sort of vibration happening around
> 3k rpms, but if you get through that it is back to being smooth.
>
> On 9/26/06, Jack's Mail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What about pinion angle?
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 8:37 AM
> > Subject: Re: Hot controller
> >
> >
> > > On 9/26/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >> Put the vehicle in neutral and get some RPMs. Does it
> > >> still vibrate?
> > >
> > > I tried that but it was inconclusive. I have also jacked up the car
> > > and put it on jack stands, and then tried it in gear (turning the rear
> > > wheels) and out of gear, again, not really conclusive.
> > >
> > > I have also taken out the motor and transmission, then run them
> > > outside the car on the garage floor (with jumper cables) to see if I
> > > can get the vibration, and have just run the motor and flywheel, and
> > > then motor, flywheel clutch and pressure plate as a unit. That is how
> > > I figured out that the flywheel was out of balance.
> > >
> > > I just replaced the clutch and pressure plate this weekend, so
> > > yesterday was the first day with all new stuff.
> > >
> > > I also changed the motor mounts from having rubber bushings to
> > > something which is completely solid so the motor was not torquing
> > > around. This made the vibration more noticable, and I'm thinking I
> > > might want to go back to the rubber bushings, and maybe have a torque
> > > bar instead.
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
150038803861
not mine, just thought I'd throw it up there for people who are looking :o)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Sep 26, 2006 at 11:21:05AM -0700, Grigg. John wrote:
> Test works. These all come back as separate conversations, even Mike's
> silly reply. --- John
Note that any mail client that showes these messages as separate conversations
is not correctly interpreting the References header as defined by RFC822
in 1982.
Or put another way, any mail client that showes these messages as separate
conversations is broken.
I sent the following the last time this issue came up:
I don't think people really understand the technical issue here.
I'm hearing people talk about the subject line, which really has little to
do with this problem.
To help illustrate the problem, take the following three hypothetical messages:
Subject: Batteries
Message-ID: <A>
Subject: Re: Batteries
Message-ID: <B>
References: <A>
Subject: Welding
Message-ID: <C>
References: <A>
Notice that message C has nothing to do with message A.
It is an entirely new topic covering a new idea.
The problem is that since you selected message A in your mail client, and
clicked reply, your client is going to add an erroneous References header.
It assumes you must be replying to the message you have selected, and why
not! You did click "Reply" :)
This whole problem can be easily fixed by just making new messages for
new topics, and clicking reply for replies.
Thanks!
PS.
The correct behavior for the "References" header was defined in RFC822.
http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc822.html
>
> Eric, I have always used Conversation sorting. I just replied with this
> e-mail using the old thread to test it. -- John
--- End Message ---
