EV Digest 5931
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Window comparator for BMS
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Ranger doner
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Pricing
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV RALLY/NEW YARIS CONVERSION
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery Pricing
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV RALLY/NEW YARIS CONVERSION
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Window comparator for BMS
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC vs DC? and cost effective batteries
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC vs DC?
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Ranger doner
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Ranger doner
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Parts worth salvaging?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: AC vs DC?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by Green VW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pics of infloor charging plates
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
BTW,
it is easy to get a dashboard indication that is isolated
from the pack and you can even get a single "idiot light"
for a large string of batteries by replacing or putting
an opto-coupler in parallel to the red LED, then either
feeding all outputs to the dash for a per-battery
indication or tying all opto outputs in parallel to get
a single idiot light of any battery being over 13 or
under 11V.
I amended the drawing with the optional output.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 2:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Window comparator for BMS
http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/window_comparater_BMS.gif
I changed the offset to 7.5V from the + input to reduce
asymmetry in LED currents with battery voltages between
10 and 14V, max LED current is around 4mA, good for a
high brightness efficient red LED.
(I have a bag full, let me know if you need some)
With an opamp that has very low standby current,
(well below 1 mA at 12V) this circuit will draw around
5 mA constantly, 12mA peak when the battery goes to 15V.
The opamp needs to be able to drive the output close
to the supply voltage, less than 1V preferred.
(5mA is approx 4Ah per month, this is around the
self-discharge current of good EV batteries so it
nothing to worry about)
NOTE: I have not tested this circuit yet - use at
your own risk, best build a breadboard version first
before ordering production quantities ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Window comparator for BMS
Mike,
This is rather easy with discrete components, though there
may be more elegant integrated versions.
The basic premise is that you should start with a voltage
amplifier and a configurable offset voltage, for example an
overall 3x gain amplifier having an offset at 12V that makes
its output zero when the battery is at 12V and have an output
of +3V when the battery is one volt higher at 13V and an
output of -3V when the battery is one volt lower at 11V.
Then all you need is a Red LED in a diode bridge to light up
when the output is about + or - 3V (1.5V for the LED and 0.7V
for each of the two low-voltage diodes in the path)
Obviously we need a resistor in series with the LED to limit
the current, as the output of the opamp will increase with
larger difference from the 12V offset.
To avoid separate symmetrical voltages to power the opamp,
the whole operation can be shifted to work at an offset
around 5V and use a resistor divider to measure the battery
voltage, while the battery also powers this circuit.
Let me know if you want a sketch of such a circuit, it should
need only:
- one opamp
- one zener of approx 5V
- one red LED
- four diodes (or one low voltage bridge rectifier)
- five resistors
If the zener has the proper temperature profile that it gets
a lower voltage at high temps with the same percentage as the
battery voltage changes over temperature then this circuit's
indication will even be temp compensated.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:41 AM
To: EVDL
Subject: Window comparator for BMS
I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
above 13v it goes.
The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
are solidly on or off.
Ideas?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
My suggestion would be to not modify anything to the car
more than absolutely necessary to get it converted, then
once it is an EV you can start optimizing it.
With proper oil the removal of gears does not sound like
a good investment of time and effort, besides you may need
4th gear on the Freeway, dependent on your gear ratio.
You may need to add spring leafs or modify springs in the
front, dependent where the weight (batteries) are going to go.
Take weight reduction with a grain of salt - a truck is by
definition a heavy vehicle, so reducing gears and taking
out 2 lbs on a 4000 lbs vehicle does not change its range
or speed in any noticeable way.
I am no gear expert, but I figure that removing gears may
actually impact the operation of the box, changing its
mechanical behavior or balancing and it can be very harmful
if someone else than you drives the car, enters the freeway,
then shifts from 3rd into not-present 4th and punches the
accelerator....
If you drive on the freeway regularly it makes a lot of sense
to pay attention to aerodynamics and making sure you have
low rolling resistance (no brake drag, well aligned wheels
with zero toe-in and maximum tire pressure, preferably LRR
tires) will make much more difference than the gearbox,
while the effort is minimal in most cases.
Changing your driving style also has a much bigger impact
than a lot of other modifications, but it is much harder
to accomplish to sit at 55 mph in the truck lane, until
you start seeing the difference with your old driving style.
Make sure you have an E-meter or other way to measure each
difference, then you know what works and what not.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ranger doner
Just got my doner vehicle today. 1990 extended cab w/5 speed transmission.
I've probably not been looking in the right places, but does anyone have
tips for what *not* to do? I'm not sure about keeping the clutch right now,
and I've thought about removing unused gears in the transmission (sounds
like 1st-3rd are useful) to reduce weight and drag from lubricant splash.
I plan to block off the radiator opening, fair in the bottom and look at
ways to reduce weight overall. It will probably be a gradual process, as I
really want to get down to the conversion itself.
Does anyone who has done a Ranger run into anything that really comes to
mind?
Thanks!
-Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Trefry wrote:
Sorry to barge in on this thread, but these batteries are for an EV?
Well, the batteries I quoted are the BB600's. They are 30ah(ish) flooded
NiCD cells. Used in airplanes as starting batteries or something like that.
There is a current (meaning available to the hobbyist) solution for using
LiIon batteries in an EV?
I don't know.
And if so, how many of those batteries would it take at $10 a piece?
Honest answer? 252. That is how many of them I have in my S10 truck. It
runs very well actually, but watering will be a pain. I'm planning on
pulling the bed either this weekend or next to look at the water levels.
Should be fun.
With that you get about 30 miles of range. But the advantage is that's
30 miles if you drive like an idiot, drive in the freezing cold, and
drive it down to zero. And these batteries should last awhile; I have
been using a pack in my Elec-trak for 2 years now with no problems, they
should last around 30-50 years.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will be attending the rally this weekend in Palo Alto with several
curious friends, and a group of EV owners and It would be great if It
were possible to meet some of the list attendees, not sure how that
would work logistically- perhaps I could strap a battery to my head
or something. It's good to place a face to an e-mail address.
I purchased an 07' Toyota Yaris to be converted and will be seeking
advice here on the list in the months to come. This is a brand new
car with about 100 miles, anyone know a good place to sell a new
1500cc motor? It's a 5-speed, three door, 2300 lbs and I hope to make
it a good conversion with all your advice. Since I can't decide on AC
or DC I will be running AC on the front and DC on the back- just
kidding....
Thanks,
Mark Dutko
San Francisco
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
I think the question was how many Li-Ion cells.
Since Li_Ion is 3.6V or thereabouts per cell,
you would need 50 in series to get to 180V and
if they cannot sustain the power or you need
more stored energy (Ah) then you will need
parallel stings of 50 cells each (or whatever
voltage you decide on).
There are several Li-Ion EV on the road, please
check the EV album or ask the people on this list,
Viktor and the racers with Electric Imp come to
mind, but there are more, just my memory is
not always working.
NOTE that Li-Ion *requires* a good BMS per cell
or you are destined to destruct your expensive
cells on short notice.
Price indications vary, but generally any Li-Ion
solution will be 5 to 10 times more expensive
than Lead in purchase price. (add BMS!)
However this is offset by the larger (claimed)
number of cycles, so in the end you may not be
too much more expensive with Li-Ion as with lead.
BUT: one mistake and you have ruined an amount
of money that could have bought you a new car...
So, for a first pack it is not a very good idea.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Pricing
Michael Trefry wrote:
> Sorry to barge in on this thread, but these batteries are for an EV?
Well, the batteries I quoted are the BB600's. They are 30ah(ish) flooded
NiCD cells. Used in airplanes as starting batteries or something like that.
> There is a current (meaning available to the hobbyist) solution for using
> LiIon batteries in an EV?
I don't know.
> And if so, how many of those batteries would it take at $10 a piece?
Honest answer? 252. That is how many of them I have in my S10 truck. It
runs very well actually, but watering will be a pain. I'm planning on
pulling the bed either this weekend or next to look at the water levels.
Should be fun.
With that you get about 30 miles of range. But the advantage is that's
30 miles if you drive like an idiot, drive in the freezing cold, and
drive it down to zero. And these batteries should last awhile; I have
been using a pack in my Elec-trak for 2 years now with no problems, they
should last around 30-50 years.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
> Is their significant difference in power to weight
> performance of ac vs dc?
No.
> Also could a home builder build a geared ac controller using
> external brushes that was synched to the crankshaft of an ac
> motor and thus get around expensive silicon and yet keeping
> the fast wearing carbon dust emitting brushes out of the motor
> itself?
An interesting thought. You would actually have to drive the mechanical
inverter using its own little motor because it needs to be running
before the AC motor it is controlling will turn (assuming an induction
machine which is the motor type most readily available).
Or, you might be able to get away with a 'starter' motor that starts the
main AC motor and its mechanical inverter spinning, but even if possible
this would require a clutch between the traction motor and drivetrain to
allow it to be spun without the car moving, and just like an ICE vehicle
you would need to keep the motor idling at every stop or 'restart' the
motor to pull away again.
If the mechanical inverter is linked to the traction motor itself, then
the performance is unlikely to differ significantly from that of an
ordinary series DC motor, and the series DC motor is even easier for a
hobbiest to use (no need to custom fabricate a mechanical inverter and
associated bits). The only 'disadvantage' seems to be that the series
DC motor locates the mechanical inverter inside the motor housing.
Let's keep things in perspective however: the "fast wearing" brushes
last for 1000s of miles. I think GE or someone suggested 100,000 mi,
but even if 10,000mi is more typical of the hobbiest experience this
isn't exactly "fast".
The issue of keeping debris from entering a brushed motor is fairly easy
to address. ADC, GE, etc. motors have screens to cover the comm end
openings. Prestolites have/had sheet metal covers for the openings that
had 'fittings' for 2" or so diameter pipe to be attached to allow
routing clean cooling air to the motor or forced air using an external
blower. Simply fitting a flimsy 'skid plate' to fair in the underside
of the vehicle's engine compartment would drastically reduce the
probability of debris entering the motor (and would keep the engine
compartment cleaner and probably increase efficiency by reducing drag).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of the listers will be showcasing their EVs or working
the EAA botth, it will not be too difficult to recognise them.
If in doubt - ask!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV RALLY/NEW YARIS CONVERSION
I will be attending the rally this weekend in Palo Alto with several
curious friends, and a group of EV owners and It would be great if It
were possible to meet some of the list attendees, not sure how that
would work logistically- perhaps I could strap a battery to my head
or something. It's good to place a face to an e-mail address.
I purchased an 07' Toyota Yaris to be converted and will be seeking
advice here on the list in the months to come. This is a brand new
car with about 100 miles, anyone know a good place to sell a new
1500cc motor? It's a 5-speed, three door, 2300 lbs and I hope to make
it a good conversion with all your advice. Since I can't decide on AC
or DC I will be running AC on the front and DC on the back- just
kidding....
Thanks,
Mark Dutko
San Francisco
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct, though the voltages will change, so the resistor
values will need to be re-calculated for that.
You will also not be able to create a single opto output,
but if you like to have 2 (low and high) opto outputs then
this may work very well.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 4:37 PM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: Window comparator for BMS
Cor,
Cost not withstanding, a dual color led could be sub'd for the 5
led/diode parts producing less parts and a smaller population.
I plan on smt parts for this.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/window_comparater_BMS.gif
>
> I changed the offset to 7.5V from the + input to reduce
> asymmetry in LED currents with battery voltages between
> 10 and 14V, max LED current is around 4mA, good for a
> high brightness efficient red LED.
> (I have a bag full, let me know if you need some)
>
> With an opamp that has very low standby current,
> (well below 1 mA at 12V) this circuit will draw around
> 5 mA constantly, 12mA peak when the battery goes to 15V.
> The opamp needs to be able to drive the output close
> to the supply voltage, less than 1V preferred.
>
> (5mA is approx 4Ah per month, this is around the
> self-discharge current of good EV batteries so it
> nothing to worry about)
>
> NOTE: I have not tested this circuit yet - use at
> your own risk, best build a breadboard version first
> before ordering production quantities ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:20 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Window comparator for BMS
>
>
> Mike,
>
> This is rather easy with discrete components, though there
> may be more elegant integrated versions.
>
> The basic premise is that you should start with a voltage
> amplifier and a configurable offset voltage, for example an
> overall 3x gain amplifier having an offset at 12V that makes
> its output zero when the battery is at 12V and have an output
> of +3V when the battery is one volt higher at 13V and an
> output of -3V when the battery is one volt lower at 11V.
>
> Then all you need is a Red LED in a diode bridge to light up
> when the output is about + or - 3V (1.5V for the LED and 0.7V
> for each of the two low-voltage diodes in the path)
>
> Obviously we need a resistor in series with the LED to limit
> the current, as the output of the opamp will increase with
> larger difference from the 12V offset.
>
> To avoid separate symmetrical voltages to power the opamp,
> the whole operation can be shifted to work at an offset
> around 5V and use a resistor divider to measure the battery
> voltage, while the battery also powers this circuit.
>
> Let me know if you want a sketch of such a circuit, it should
> need only:
> - one opamp
> - one zener of approx 5V
> - one red LED
> - four diodes (or one low voltage bridge rectifier)
> - five resistors
>
> If the zener has the proper temperature profile that it gets
> a lower voltage at high temps with the same percentage as the
> battery voltage changes over temperature then this circuit's
> indication will even be temp compensated.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:41 AM
> To: EVDL
> Subject: Window comparator for BMS
>
>
> I'm looking to build a set of window comparators for the display side
> of my bms. The older ACP cars have one led per battery. The led lights
> when the battery's voltage goes above 13v. It gets brighter the further
> above 13v it goes.
>
> The same is true during discharge. The Led comes on at about 11 volts
> and gets brighter the further below 11 volts it goes.
>
> Both of these functions apply to the same led. The variable brightness
> portion of the circuit I don't grasp as windoow comparators I've found
> are solidly on or off.
>
> Ideas?
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:06:22 -0700 (PDT)
>Well Jerry,
>
> I guess you got me with this cost issue. I cannot give
>you an "off the self" AC system price to compete with a DC
>system.
In production, cost is everything. If you want a cost
effective EV, you need cost effective systems in it.
This doesn't mean AC systems are not of value and
>everyone should stop messing with them. I'll keep working
>on it and maybe someday it will become affordable.
Cool! I hope AC someday does become competitive and I
think it will as the price of silicon drops.
I too am working on a BLDC motor/ controller that
costs less than a series system.
I think I can build them for under $500 for the
motor/controller. Others build them now like Unique Motors
who's motor style is similar to mine but for some reason,
overprice them.
So it's not like I'm against AC, just they cost too
much and I have a problem paying more for less power.
>
> Can't the same arguments used in favor of DC and against
>AC motor systems apply to batteries? For example, NiMH and
>Lithium batteries vs the old tried and true, lower cost
>PbAcid.
I agree it goes for batteries too. I'll use US or
Trojan GC batts in my EV as the cost less than any other per
mile.
Next would be Ni-cads which are the next lowest cost
and best for cold areas. Now Nicad and GC are the only cost
effective batts available.
AGMs are fairly expensive/mile, 2x's ni-cads, and
require expensive battery charging.
Neither Li-ion or NiMH are cost effective yet but I
expect from trends, factories already being built, that
Li-ion will be viable by the time my first lead pack needs
replacing.
I'm building a realistic, designed from scratch EV
from proven parts, something no one else has tried it seems.
But I think it's the only way we will ever get EV's in our
hands that can compete with ICE cars on a cost basis. My
goal is an EV costing 1/2 an ICE per mile or less.
>
> Jeff
>
>jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>Hi Jeff and All,
>
>----- Original Message Follows -----
>From: Jeff Major
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: AC vs DC?
>Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:52:12 -0700 (PDT)
>
>>Hi Jerry and All,
>>
>> Times, they are a changin'. And time will tell as to the
>>AC vs DC issue.
>
>At the moment the time is now, not some vaporware
>away. And now DC beats the pants off of AC on cost,
>relability, power by a large factor, No? If not please show
>me the AC units that can beat a series on these things?
>I want actual new pieces you can buy for you to prove
>your point. If you can't, it kind of blows your arguement
>to shreads. So where are they? Inquiring minds want to
>know?
>
>
>I am a relative short timer to the list.
>>I suspect this is not the first time the issue has been
>>addressed here. But I have had a lot of experience with
>>both DC and AC systems in EVs. Just trying to share some
>>of it.
>
>You obviously have little experience pricing systems
>out for production or you wouldn't say such things. While
>AC sounds good, in real life it's just a toy for those with
>too much or other peoples money or bought it used.
>If I were to use AC in my EV, I'd have to charge $19k
>for it instead of $13k. Now which would you rather spend?
>What would most people? Do you think it would slow
>it's sales at the higher price?
>
>
>>
>> Bright minds? Successful? My take is YES.
>
>Then you are rather niave.
>
>Those gold
>>plated EVs may have been successful had it not been for
>>bad business decisions. But design success, I say yes.
>
>Where? I want sucessful examples? You keep saying all
>this stuff but no examples. And no a run of a few hundred
>is not successful unless it makes an unsubsidized profit.
>An EV with a $3-5k+ battery pack that needs changing every
>3-4 yrs is not successful. You may think just saying
>something over and over makes it true but we are experinced
>here, not newbies.
>I could care less which EV drive system will do the
>job, just that it do it in a cost effective manor. Adding
>$6k to $15k to the price of an EV is a sure way to not be
>sucessful. Yet you keep ignoring that. Why?
>
>
>Look
>>at Toyota. Better business decisions, better EV (HEV)
>>success.
>
>Barely better. And they are not really hybrids as
>they just run from gas.
>
>
>>
>> In the mean time, anyone wants to market an EV with DC
>>commutator motor and golfcar batteries, more power to
>> them. I'm behind it.
>>
>> Why change? Better functionality, reliability and
>>efficiency.
>
>That is not true. Tell me one thing you can't do
>with a DC motor/controller that you can an AC one? Either
>can be made as eff, reliable, functional as the other
>except the additional parts counts in the AC controller.
>But the thing you can't do is build a cost
>effective, as reliable given the same developement, AC
>controller because you will always need 3 power stages
>instead of the one for DC.
>
>
>And AC does not necessarily have to be high
>>voltage.
>
>As the voltage drops, the eff of the AC controller
>goes down as it has larger voltage drops compared to DC.
>And the unit becones larger with it's 3 power stages at
>lower voltages, higher amps.
>AC also has to be rated 2x's as high to get the same
>starting torque needed, upping the price higher. Many times
>AC's high rpm needs, to lighten it's weight, a double
>reduction gearbox, eating more power making it less eff,
>less cost effective, higher weight. No?
>
>
>Many fork lifts are offered, DC or AC, same
>>voltage battery pack. As for the cost issue, it is far
>>more than just that of the controller. Especially with an
>>EV for the masses. You'll have to account for validation,
>>tooling, warranty, etc. The big companies see an advantage
>>for AC here.
>
>How? This I got to hear as something 2x's as
>complicated is going to cost less than something that's
>much more simple, been around for yrs!! Just what have you
>been smoking? Come on, you can think of some way to spin
>this ;^D
>
>
>>
>> The first hand held calculators were much more expensive
>>than slide rules. And not even as functional. Why change?
>
>When AC can match DC I'll have no problem switching.
>It just isn't anywhere near close. Best now is for the same
>power, DC costs 1/4 of AC. Now repeat that until you
>understand it Jeff.
>Jerry Dycus
>
>> Jeff
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So unless there is a much cheaper source of AC motors dc would seem the
way to go.
So now for another similiar question.
Is it cheaper to get the total power required by purchasing multiple
smaller dc motors rather than one larger more powerful motor because
smaller motors are more mass produced with more sources?
(Also can phase in startup of multiple small motors to avoid current
spikes so thats another advantage.)
What about for Ac motors? are 30 vacuum cleaner motors cheaper than same
power ac motor?
Roger Stockton wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
Is their significant difference in power to weight
performance of ac vs dc?
No.
Also could a home builder build a geared ac controller using
external brushes that was synched to the crankshaft of an ac
motor and thus get around expensive silicon and yet keeping
the fast wearing carbon dust emitting brushes out of the motor
itself?
An interesting thought. You would actually have to drive the mechanical
inverter using its own little motor because it needs to be running
before the AC motor it is controlling will turn (assuming an induction
machine which is the motor type most readily available).
Or, you might be able to get away with a 'starter' motor that starts the
main AC motor and its mechanical inverter spinning, but even if possible
this would require a clutch between the traction motor and drivetrain to
allow it to be spun without the car moving, and just like an ICE vehicle
you would need to keep the motor idling at every stop or 'restart' the
motor to pull away again.
If the mechanical inverter is linked to the traction motor itself, then
the performance is unlikely to differ significantly from that of an
ordinary series DC motor, and the series DC motor is even easier for a
hobbiest to use (no need to custom fabricate a mechanical inverter and
associated bits). The only 'disadvantage' seems to be that the series
DC motor locates the mechanical inverter inside the motor housing.
Let's keep things in perspective however: the "fast wearing" brushes
last for 1000s of miles. I think GE or someone suggested 100,000 mi,
but even if 10,000mi is more typical of the hobbiest experience this
isn't exactly "fast".
The issue of keeping debris from entering a brushed motor is fairly easy
to address. ADC, GE, etc. motors have screens to cover the comm end
openings. Prestolites have/had sheet metal covers for the openings that
had 'fittings' for 2" or so diameter pipe to be attached to allow
routing clean cooling air to the motor or forced air using an external
blower. Simply fitting a flimsy 'skid plate' to fair in the underside
of the vehicle's engine compartment would drastically reduce the
probability of debris entering the motor (and would keep the engine
compartment cleaner and probably increase efficiency by reducing drag).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some of the things to lighten the truck:
1- Get rid of the bed, and make it a flatbed.
2- Alloy wheels
3- Alloy flywheel
4- Use Synlube fluid, which 100% synthetic.
I did 1&4 for my toyota PU which now weighs about
4140.
I didn't do #2 or #3 because of cost.
But there was a discussion about machining the
flywheel as wheel.
can you use the transwarp motor?
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ralph,
>
> My suggestion would be to not modify anything to the
> car
> more than absolutely necessary to get it converted,
> then
> once it is an EV you can start optimizing it.
> With proper oil the removal of gears does not sound
> like
> a good investment of time and effort, besides you
> may need
> 4th gear on the Freeway, dependent on your gear
> ratio.
>
> You may need to add spring leafs or modify springs
> in the
> front, dependent where the weight (batteries) are
> going to go.
>
> Take weight reduction with a grain of salt - a truck
> is by
> definition a heavy vehicle, so reducing gears and
> taking
> out 2 lbs on a 4000 lbs vehicle does not change its
> range
> or speed in any noticeable way.
> I am no gear expert, but I figure that removing
> gears may
> actually impact the operation of the box, changing
> its
> mechanical behavior or balancing and it can be very
> harmful
> if someone else than you drives the car, enters the
> freeway,
> then shifts from 3rd into not-present 4th and
> punches the
> accelerator....
>
> If you drive on the freeway regularly it makes a lot
> of sense
> to pay attention to aerodynamics and making sure you
> have
> low rolling resistance (no brake drag, well aligned
> wheels
> with zero toe-in and maximum tire pressure,
> preferably LRR
> tires) will make much more difference than the
> gearbox,
> while the effort is minimal in most cases.
> Changing your driving style also has a much bigger
> impact
> than a lot of other modifications, but it is much
> harder
> to accomplish to sit at 55 mph in the truck lane,
> until
> you start seeing the difference with your old
> driving style.
>
> Make sure you have an E-meter or other way to
> measure each
> difference, then you know what works and what not.
>
> Success,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ralph
> Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:27 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Ranger doner
>
>
> Just got my doner vehicle today. 1990 extended cab
> w/5 speed transmission.
> I've probably not been looking in the right places,
> but does anyone have
> tips for what *not* to do? I'm not sure about
> keeping the clutch right now,
> and I've thought about removing unused gears in the
> transmission (sounds
> like 1st-3rd are useful) to reduce weight and drag
> from lubricant splash.
>
> I plan to block off the radiator opening, fair in
> the bottom and look at
> ways to reduce weight overall. It will probably be a
> gradual process, as I
> really want to get down to the conversion itself.
>
> Does anyone who has done a Ranger run into anything
> that really comes to
> mind?
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Ralph
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
> 1- Get rid of the bed, and make it a flatbed.
Be careful with this one as it is not guaranteed to lighten the truck
nor to improve the vehicle's efficiency.
Truck boxes typically only weigh a few hundred lbs, and a typical flat
bed with perhaps a 2" angle iron frame and 2x6 planking could easily
come out weighing nearly the same (or even more!).
Also, a "Mythbusters" or somesuch show I caught during the summer
happened to be testing whether fuel efficiency increased when the
tailgate on a PU was left down vs up, and discovered that fuel
efficiency was significantly worse with the tailgate down. The test
wasn't perfect, but it would certainly make me wonder if fitting a
flatbed might actually cost you more due to aero losses than you gain
from any small reduction in vehicle weight.
It would certainly be more educational and interesting to convert the
vehicle as near to stock as possible to start and see what the energy
usage is, then start making these sorts of incremental changes an
measure what (if any) improvement results. An E-Meter set to display
energy usage in kWh makes it very easy to quantify the improvement
associated with any such change.
In my own case, I was quite surprised to discover that there was
essentially no change in my EV's efficiency running the tranny nearly
dry of lube (its initial state since most of the oil had leaked out
during the course of the multi-year conversion process, most of it
probably when the tranny was tilted for the motor install) vs properly
filled with the appropriate lube. The next experiment will be to see
what difference switching to one of the Redline systhetic lubes makes.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got the batteries already. 2 large 36 volt steel encased monsters. Have
fitted one to an old boom lift that originally had 6 very large Trojans. It
helps as the ballast on the back side of the boom and weighs as much as the
original batteries. Not much use in an EV unless I decide to convert the
20' box van that I use only 4-6 times a year and only run 20 mi at most.
That thought has crossed my mind for a conversion, but it was with a couple
of 48 volt forklift batteries.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: Parts worth salvaging?
Get the batteries too.
Think core-charge *shudder*
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 27, 2006 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: Parts worth salvaging?
At 09:23 PM 26/09/06 -0700, John wrote:
I have permission to salvage parts off of a Hyster Hi-Racker that is
destined for the scrap dealer. It is a 72 volt unit with 2 motor in
wheel units and three hydraulic pump motors.
Yes, yes, get!!
Wheel motors are probably too much trouble to use, but the EV1,
Contactors, non-wheel motors, look for a DC/DC converter, too. Cables may
be useful, if not too corroded.
EV1 will do for a light car, a bike or a trike, not necessarily with one
of the motors from this, though. But yes, get, if not for yourself, then
another EVer.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So how true of a copy is it?
I mean did they just make whatever they could and gave it an exterior
appearance like the Smart, or did they get ahold of the original
specifications and parts vendors and make one that is mechanically
similar as well?
Danny
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
Cor van de Water kirjoitti:
Evan,
They can't get it right after they copied the looks of a Smart,
which is a very severe infringement and any time they do
establish a business in the US trying to sell these fancy
looking golf cars, DaimlerChrysler will sue the heck out of them.
Have we got a confirmation that they do NOT have a permission to make
this vehicle in China ? You can buy BMWs and Audis and Toyotas in
China with completely different name and logo. They are licensed to
make for China markets. This might be the case here too.
I've decided to arrange a meeting with this company for my next China
trip.(few weeks to go). Let's see if they agree :)
If I can get near this EV I will shoot my flash disk full and share
them in my private site.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geopilot wrote:
> Is it cheaper to get the total power required by purchasing multiple
> smaller dc motors rather than one larger more powerful motor because
> smaller motors are more mass produced with more sources?
I would guess not, for two reasons. First is that there is a definite
cost associated with mounting multiple motors and coupling their output
together (or to each individual wheel, etc.), and this will be greater
than the cost of mounting and coupling a single larger motor to the
drivetrain.
Second is that the smaller motors probably aren't that much smaller
anyway. For instance using a pair of 6.7" motors instead of a single 9"
is about the same motor cost (the pair of 6.7" motors costs a bit more
but also develops a bit more power). It wouldn't be practical to use 20
1HP motors instead of a single 20HP motor, and if you restrict yourself
to something reasonable like perhaps 4 or less motors, it doesn't seem
that the production volumes are enough different to result in enough
cost savings to offset the additional mounting/coupling costs.
I suppose it is fair to note that 2 motors is probably the practical
limit, since a 'Zilla will handle 2 motors and series/parallel shift
them, but when you get into more motors than this you may end up looking
at multiple controllers (more $$$).
> (Also can phase in startup of multiple small motors to avoid current
> spikes so thats another advantage.)
There really isn't any advantage here unless you are thinking of running
a contactor controller since a modern PWM controller allows you to
smoothly ramp the current up from 0A to whatever. If you did want to
sequence the startup of multiple small motors it seems you would
automatically need multiple controllers, and/or would need to worry
about starting enough of the small motors that together they develop
enough power to start the vehicle moving before the rest of the motors
are sequenced in (otherwise on a hill, etc. you will be overloading the
first ones started as they remain in a locked rotor condition trying in
vain to stat the vehicle rolling).
> What about for Ac motors? are 30 vacuum cleaner motors
> cheaper than same power ac motor?
Ironically, your typical vacuum cleaner motor is a series DC motor!
(So-called a "universal" motor since it will run just as happily on AC
as DC.)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i have had success with my configuration. I use an AC clutch on the
compressor and the motor shaft, so that energy is not used to turn the
belt when not in use. The compressor is set up to engage whenever the
throttle is lifted (shift changes, braking). Helps slow the vehicle
when coming to a stop and slow the motor between gear shifts. I used
the largest condensor that I could find and two electric cooling fans.
In typical use the AC only uses the battery pack to power the fans.
The compressor is only powered by momentum normally lost to brake heat.
I put a thermometer in the AC vent to check performance. In stop and
go traffic, it will maintain 45 deg on a hot florida summer day. I
also installed an override switch to power the compressor on the
highway, though I don't use it, as the VW has Safari Windshields and
allows plenty of air in
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384
On Sep 27, 2006, at 3:13 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
MikePhillips wrote (some time ago):
Does anyone know if it's possible and what it takes to bring Air
Conditioning
to a EV?
and the list came up with many ideas and suggestions.
I would like for Steve Clunn and others who have DONE IT
to way in on the pro's and con's of running the compressor off of the
secondary
shaft of the Traction motor vs. a separate motor ??
If you had a clutch couldn't you "idle" if you had to ?
I figure its hot in Fla.so steve should have some good advice ?
(OH I forget _ Steve said that he prefers two windows down at 40 mph)
Joe in Cincinnati
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently, it's fully automatic. They have a wall of Zivan NG5
chargers hooked up to these:
I was wrong about that. They have 480V NG9's! 480V in ground charging...
http://www.zivanusa.com/NG9BatteryCharger.htm
The carts:
http://www.electramotorsports.com/rsx.html
The charger:
http://www.electramotorsports.com/charging.html
Pic of the motor:
http://www.electramotorsports.com/images/RS%20Pics%20014.jpg
Construction pics of the charging pads:
http://www.electramotorsports.com/images/Fun%20Center%2004.jpg
This is pretty good:
http://www.electramotorsports.com/media/2004%20Web%20Brochure.pdf
--- End Message ---
