EV Digest 5935
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Found my donor car - needs heat
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Cheapest not most efficient ev
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC vs DC?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: AC vs DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FW: Next AEVA Meeting + AEVA Sydney Branch Annual General Meeting
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) [Fwd: Re: YARIS CONVERSION (verification)]
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: air conditioning for ev's
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC vs DC? What if Tesla motors used a DC motor?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Cheapest not most efficient ev
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AC vs DC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) RE: Ranger doner
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC vs DC?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Article on EVs-moderator to comment please
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC vs DC?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC vs DC?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) eBike news from Ontario, Canada, eh?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: EVLN(Lithium-ion battery failures
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AC vs DC?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I once had a 72 914! Great handling car and always was too low powered
anyway so good for a conversion. And since the engine was air cooled it
always leaked oil from the seams anyway. A good engine to get rid of!
The targa top fits in the top of the back trunk so make sure you leave
clearance above the batteries for it in your plans.
Ironically a 914 has one of the best heaters ever because it circulates
vent air through chambers built around the exhaust pipes. It heats
instantly and puts out very hot air so you could drive with the top off
in winter and be warm as toast.
Also the spare tire serves as a pressure reserve for the windsheild
washer fluid chamber in place of a pump!
Good wheel disc brakes too and the front torsion bar suspension
preserves front trunk space.
Nice rack and pinion steering on that car as well.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 7:23 am, Michael Trefry wrote:
That car is in rough shape.
Perhaps all the EV equipment would be worth it. Too bad it's 3000 miles
away.
I can't wait to get my hands on my 914!!
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:13 AM
To: Michael Trefry
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little
rust, just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Might want to watch this ebay auction, at least for info:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270033137063
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I heard someone mention that spare tire thing before. How strange.
Don't know if the batteries will leave space for the spare though. Maybe
I'll get a small pump for it anyway.
Well, hopefully the heater will be something easily fixed as I don't plan on
starting the project until next spring. I need to know absolutely what I'm
doing before I make that leap. Until then it'd be nice to have a fun car to
drive while it's not snowing.
I don't suppose you know how they handle in the snow? :)
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
I once had a 72 914! Great handling car and always was too low powered
anyway so good for a conversion. And since the engine was air cooled it
always leaked oil from the seams anyway. A good engine to get rid of!
The targa top fits in the top of the back trunk so make sure you leave
clearance above the batteries for it in your plans.
Ironically a 914 has one of the best heaters ever because it circulates
vent air through chambers built around the exhaust pipes. It heats
instantly and puts out very hot air so you could drive with the top off
in winter and be warm as toast.
Also the spare tire serves as a pressure reserve for the windsheild
washer fluid chamber in place of a pump!
Good wheel disc brakes too and the front torsion bar suspension
preserves front trunk space.
Nice rack and pinion steering on that car as well.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 7:23 am, Michael Trefry wrote:
> That car is in rough shape.
>
> Perhaps all the EV equipment would be worth it. Too bad it's 3000 miles
> away.
>
> I can't wait to get my hands on my 914!!
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:13 AM
> To: Michael Trefry
> Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
>
>> I found my donor car!!!!
>>
>> And I'm picking it up this weekend.
>>
>> A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little
> rust, just a
>> spot on the engine mount bar.
>>
>
> Might want to watch this ebay auction, at least for info:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270033137063
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
I would like to put together a plan for the cheapest way to homebuild an
EV. Any ideas what motors and batteries could be used in such a case?
You'll find lots of good ideas in the archives for this list. Basically,
the least expensive way to build a dependable, solid EV is:
- 72-120v pack of 6v golf cart batteries
- used industrial DC series motor (from a forklift, etc.)
- contactor controller
- keep the vehicle's transmission and clutch
- 36 or 48v golf cart charger
- no DC/DC converter; either use a big deep-cycle battery or
the vehicle's old alternator, belt driven from the motor
- basic instrumentation; voltmeter, ammeter, Batt-bridge "idiot" light
- ceramic heater
This will give you a simple, straightforward EV that is economical,
dependable, and easy to build and fix. It will be on the crude side
(contactor controller), but you can always upgrade things later. The
series/parallel contactor controller also lets you parallel the
batteries for charging with an easy-to-get golf cart charger.
For example what about homemade lead acid or other metals batteries
using sheets of lead and an acid.
What about using many cheap electric motors like toy motors of very
small size bound together in each wheel. What of price performance can
you get using that philosopy?
Neither of these are worth pursuing unless you just like to experiment.
Small motors are less efficient than bigger ones. Since there is little
market for used forklift motors, they are hard to beat for a good motor
at a low price.
Unless you are an experienced electrochemist, making your own batteries
is only useful as a school science project. You can buy far better
batteries than what you can build.
Best wishes on your project!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kaido Kert wrote:
Indeed, sorry for causing confusion
I had remembered the word "copper" from early press releases and for
some reason associated this with wound rotor.
Instead they are indeed using squirrel cage motor with copper end rings
Well, you could be both right and wrong! :-)
Normal inexpensive induction motors have cast aluminum rotor windings.
It's cheap and easy. Aluminum naturally forms an insulating oxide
coating, which keeps the winding from shorting to the iron (which would
increase losses, like a shorted turn in a transformer).
But aluminum has more resistance than copper, so it is not a good choice
when you want maximum efficiency. It is mechanically weak; this limits
your maximum rpm. It has a low melting point, so it is easier to damage
the windings if the motor is asked to deliver high torque at low speeds.
So most of the high-performance EV-grade induction motors have copper
rotor windings. And how do you make them? You WIND them just like you
would a DC series motor!
No, you don't use wire. You wind them with specially shaped and
insulated copper bars, made to fit the slots in the iron rotor. You
slide the bars into the slots, then weld them to the copper shorting
rings at each end (just as DC motors weld their windings to the
commutator bars).
So, your Tesla motor probably *does* have a wound copper rotor!
However, the traditional meaning of a "wound rotor induction motor" is
one where the windings are not shorted on the motor; rather, they are
routed to slip rings so they can be shorted externally. Being able to
control the rotor resistance externally lets you control slip, starting
torque, operating voltage and current, efficiency, and many other
parameters. Many large induction motors are wound-rotor motors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Major wrote:
If you consider the AC vs DC systems and just not the controller box,
you see that the AC system has two silicon switches in series with the
armature and the DC system has one silicon switch and two carbon-copper
switches in series with the armature. AC has 2, DC has 3.
True as far as it goes... but this sounds a bit like those philosophical
arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. :-)
Interesting, but it doesn't really get us anything useful.
Ultimately, you have to look at the overall system efficiency
(controller plus motor), at the actual power levels you will be using.
The underlying "motor" and "controller" for both AC and DC systems are
basically doing exactly the same things. That means the ultimate
"winner" is whichever one the designer spent the most time on to get all
the details right.
Throw it together in a hurry with cheap parts, and you get low
efficiency. Spend a lot on great parts, and put in a lot of time on
careful optimization, and you get high efficiency. AC *or* DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Sheree Natoli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Next AEVA Meeting + AEVA Sydney Branch Annual General Meeting
Hello all,
quick reminder for the next Sydney branch AEVA meeting:
Date: Tuesday, 3rd October
Time: 7:30PM (for 8:00PM start)
Location: Norwest McDonald
Norwest Business Park
6 Celebration Drive, BELLA VISTA
(Off Old Windsor Rd)
During this meeting we will also need to hold the AGM for the Sydney
Branch.
As part of the AGM, all paying members will have the opportunity to:
1. Elect the Branch Committee, consisting of:
* Chairperson
* Vice Chairperson (Optional)
* Secretary
* Treasurer
* Committee Members (as many as required)
2. Elect 2 councillors to represent Sydney in the National Council.
3. Raise any issues to be addressed at the National AGM.
4. Discuss any other general branch business.
You might also like to keep an eye on this web-site for upcoming events:
http://sydneyaeva.googlepages.com/
Cheers,
Sheree Natoli
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> hey Jukka
> Never mind the smart knock offs... Ask them if they can put together
> a glider that could be legally driven in the US & Canada(and
> elsewhere)
Of course, if it can really get that range from 6 LA batts, you may find
the car is about 1' tall... perfectly suited for your 5 year old to cruise
around in. I'm guessing the web site is as fraudulent as the seller. <g>
(Evan a copy of a $30K auto would need to sell for more than $7K.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Please send me $1 if you would like me to be able to send email to you.
You only have to do this once.
Thanks,
Martin K
--- Begin Message ---
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
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--- End Message ---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: air conditioning for ev's
> Who has a mechanical regen?
> What does it store with?
Mechanical REGEN is driving any accessories off the main motor while the
motor may be turning during coast down or braking. It may be a A/C unit,
power steering, alternator, generators, vacuum pumps, water pump for
electric hot water heater, generating power for electric heating.
At the time the main motor is coasting down, the motor and battery amperes
is 0 amperes, but the accessories units are still providing power by the
rotating motor.
It is found that when the standard regen energy goes back to the batteries
and at the same time you are using a DC-DC converter off the batteries, the
regen energy is providing energy to the DC-DC instead of the batteries at
that time.
So instead of making that around about loop, I drive the accessories units
off the main motor.
Its like a ICE alternator providing power to accessories and not from the
battery which is being charge at that time.
I was using a HoneyWell DC-DC motor generator that ran off the main battery
pack. That power up all the accessories and charge a 12 volt battery which
is a continues draw of 10 amps and may peak to 18 amps.
Driving these accessories off the main pilot shaft of the motor, I can
hardly read the difference of motor amperes when the accessory units or on
or not.
During my drive on these roads in Montana that go up and down like a roller
coaster, 50 percent of the time, my motor and battery ampere is at 0 amps
which is providing Mechanical REGEN at that time.
The only difference I read, is when the main motor and battery pack reads 0
amps, the accessories are providing energy.
Now if you are in a area, where it is dead flat terrain, no snow, icy roads,
does not get hot or cold, and if you do not have to stop at every stop light
going up or down steep hill, than the Mechanical REGEN my not be as
effected.
Roland
>
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 6:43 am, steve clunn wrote:
> >
> >> Ben,
> >>
> >> Your Bus is a seriously nice conversion. With two ac clutches you
> >> literally have a mechanical regen! Very sweet. The whole thing is just
> >> too neat and tidy. You should be banned :)
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Nikola Tesla ran his electric vehicle with a single phase 50 hp AC
motor made by Westinghouse back in the 30's. Westinghouse was at one time
working for Tesla as a electrician.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:37 AM
Subject: Re: AC vs DC? What if Tesla motors used a DC motor?
> Maybe not. Nikola Tesla inveted the commutator in 1886. Look up Patent
> 334,823 at www.uspto.gov for an interesting read.
>
> Jeff
>
> Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I bet if the people at Tesla Motors chose a DC motor
> for their car, they would have named the company
> Edison motors. :-)
>
>
> > > > Tesla Motors is using wound-rotor motor, most of
> > the hybrids on the
> > > > market are using synchronous three-phase motors.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
> rates.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:31 PM 9/28/2006, you wrote:
No, you don't use wire. You wind them with specially shaped and insulated
copper bars, made to fit the slots in the iron rotor. You slide the bars
into the slots, then weld them to the copper shorting rings at each end
(just as DC motors weld their windings to the commutator bars).
So, your Tesla motor probably *does* have a wound copper rotor!
However, the traditional meaning of a "wound rotor induction motor" is one
where the windings are not shorted on the motor; rather, they are routed
to slip rings so they can be shorted externally. Being able to control the
rotor resistance externally lets you control slip, starting torque,
operating voltage and current, efficiency, and many other parameters. Many
large induction motors are wound-rotor motors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Have you ever seen how Edison did the windings on the armatures of his
Jumbo DC generators.
Page 10
http://files.asme.org/ASMEORG/Communities/History/Landmarks/5537.pdf
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote Saturday, September 23, 2006 12:15 PM:
[snip]
> I will do a load test on a satisfactory battery (ie,
> one where all of the cells are leaning to 1265 SG),
> and make a final decision.
>
> So despite having 6 years experience with EVs under my
> belt, my understanding of EVs has been unmatched with
> my understanding of batteries. Bummer.
Roger that Bob, I feel like I'm in the same boat. I'll be
posting my travails in the next few days, with links to lots and
lots of battery data. Oh goodie!
>
> To those who responded then to my post, I continue to
> be grateful to you for contributing to this list.
> Let's see if I can get more mileage/years under my
> belt next time/next pack...
> peace,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
914 s or a midengine car and has such have almost perfect 50-50 weight
distribution.
That means they turn very well but if ever in a spin are extremely hard
to recover.
If you want to drive in the snow put a touch more weight over the power
wheels for traction and put heavier springs in the back to handle the
extra weight.
Pretty easy to do with batteries.
The gas tank was below the front windsheild so with no gas that may
shift more weight in back anyway depending on the swap weight of the gas
vs electric motor.
Incidently peple have hammered the firewall forward a bit and been able
squeeeze small block v8s in that mid engine space so an electric should
fit easy enough.
I would actually put a windsheild sprayer motor in and ditch the spare
tire. Just use fix a flat and carry aaa. Save a lot of weight.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 12:02 pm, Michael Trefry wrote:
I thought I heard someone mention that spare tire thing before. How
strange.
Don't know if the batteries will leave space for the spare though.
Maybe
I'll get a small pump for it anyway.
Well, hopefully the heater will be something easily fixed as I don't
plan on
starting the project until next spring. I need to know absolutely what
I'm
doing before I make that leap. Until then it'd be nice to have a fun
car to
drive while it's not snowing.
I don't suppose you know how they handle in the snow? :)
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
I once had a 72 914! Great handling car and always was too low powered
anyway so good for a conversion. And since the engine was air cooled it
always leaked oil from the seams anyway. A good engine to get rid of!
The targa top fits in the top of the back trunk so make sure you leave
clearance above the batteries for it in your plans.
Ironically a 914 has one of the best heaters ever because it circulates
vent air through chambers built around the exhaust pipes. It heats
instantly and puts out very hot air so you could drive with the top off
in winter and be warm as toast.
Also the spare tire serves as a pressure reserve for the windsheild
washer fluid chamber in place of a pump!
Good wheel disc brakes too and the front torsion bar suspension
preserves front trunk space.
Nice rack and pinion steering on that car as well.
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 7:23 am, Michael Trefry wrote:
That car is in rough shape.
Perhaps all the EV equipment would be worth it. Too bad it's 3000
miles
away.
I can't wait to get my hands on my 914!!
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 3:13 AM
To: Michael Trefry
Subject: Re: Found my donor car - needs heat
I found my donor car!!!!
And I'm picking it up this weekend.
A 1972 Porsche 914 in excellent condition, running, very little
rust, just a
spot on the engine mount bar.
Might want to watch this ebay auction, at least for info:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270033137063
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Naw, the cheapest most efficient EV can be built for less than $100,
assuming you have a suitable donner.
Lets see, you'll need:
1) bicycle(donner)
2) 36V motor ($30 surpluscenter.com Item# 10-2301-A)
3) 36V 12Ah battery ($15 surpluscenter Item# 11-3136)
4) 25pitch roller chain ($5 surpluscenter Item# 1-2851)
5) 30A contacter ($5 surpluscenter Item# 11-1611 )
6) Push button switch (radioshack) to actuate contacter
6) ~60 ohm 5watt resistor (Radio shack) to drop voltage to contactor
7) ~45tooth 25pitch sprocket (not sure where to get this yet)
In order to meet federal law as an electrically assisted bicycle, it can't
go over 20mph on level ground with a 165lb rider. So to avoid having to
register it as a moped/motorcycle you'll need an 8.6:1 reduction to the
wheel. That means either a two stage reduction (with a jack shaft) or a
95tooth sprocket.
How to build a cheap jack shaft:
Make friends with the folks at your local bike shop and you can pick up a
spin on rear cluster cheap. Have them remove the spraugs so it will free
wheel in both directions. These will screw onto the cup from a bottom
bracket. Bolt/weld the cup onto a mount.
Connect a 45tooth 25 pitch sprocket to the large spocket on the cluster.
Mount the cluster on the cup mentioned about.
Jack shaft complete.
Use a standard bike chain to connect the small sprocket on the jackshaft
(should be a 12 or 13 tooth) to the largest sprocket on your bike (should
be a 26 tooth). Use the 25p chain to connect the motor(comes with 11t
sprocket) to the jackshaft.
Use the high current contacts on the contactor to connect motor to battery
via some 10 guage stranded wire (12ga might work). Mount push button
switch on handlebars. Use some 24ga wire to connnect push button to
resistor, other side resistor to control side of contactor (smaller
connections), and then other control connection back to battery.
Voila' less than $100 for an EV that uses less than 25 watts to the mile.
Can't hardly beat that for efficiency...or cheap.
Hmm, darn...forgot the charger. Well you can get one of those from one of
the scooter stores. Probably knock the price up above $100 though.
> GWMobile wrote:
>> I would like to put together a plan for the cheapest way to homebuild an
>> EV. Any ideas what motors and batteries could be used in such a case?
>
> You'll find lots of good ideas in the archives for this list. Basically,
> the least expensive way to build a dependable, solid EV is:
>
> - 72-120v pack of 6v golf cart batteries
> - used industrial DC series motor (from a forklift, etc.)
> - contactor controller
> - keep the vehicle's transmission and clutch
> - 36 or 48v golf cart charger
> - no DC/DC converter; either use a big deep-cycle battery or
> the vehicle's old alternator, belt driven from the motor
> - basic instrumentation; voltmeter, ammeter, Batt-bridge "idiot" light
> - ceramic heater
>
> This will give you a simple, straightforward EV that is economical,
> dependable, and easy to build and fix. It will be on the crude side
> (contactor controller), but you can always upgrade things later. The
> series/parallel contactor controller also lets you parallel the
> batteries for charging with an easy-to-get golf cart charger.
>
>> For example what about homemade lead acid or other metals batteries
>> using sheets of lead and an acid.
>> What about using many cheap electric motors like toy motors of very
>> small size bound together in each wheel. What of price performance can
>> you get using that philosopy?
>
> Neither of these are worth pursuing unless you just like to experiment.
> Small motors are less efficient than bigger ones. Since there is little
> market for used forklift motors, they are hard to beat for a good motor
> at a low price.
>
> Unless you are an experienced electrochemist, making your own batteries
> is only useful as a school science project. You can buy far better
> batteries than what you can build.
>
> Best wishes on your project!
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lee
Is not working in a higher voltage overall more efficient? If so would not
this give an edge for efficiency to AC systems? With most AC EV systems being
around 300 volts and DC in the 120 range for most full size 70 mph vehicles?
Don
In a message dated 9/28/2006 11:59:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Jeff Major wrote:
> If you consider the AC vs DC systems and just not the controller box,
> you see that the AC system has two silicon switches in series with the
> armature and the DC system has one silicon switch and two carbon-copper
> switches in series with the armature. AC has 2, DC has 3.
True as far as it goes... but this sounds a bit like those philosophical
arguments about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. :-)
Interesting, but it doesn't really get us anything useful.
Ultimately, you have to look at the overall system efficiency
(controller plus motor), at the actual power levels you will be using.
The underlying "motor" and "controller" for both AC and DC systems are
basically doing exactly the same things. That means the ultimate
"winner" is whichever one the designer spent the most time on to get all
the details right.
Throw it together in a hurry with cheap parts, and you get low
efficiency. Spend a lot on great parts, and put in a lot of time on
careful optimization, and you get high efficiency. AC *or* DC.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Ralph,
Simple approach is:
- get two sturdy hinges
- unbolt and lift the bed off the truck
- add a stiffening/load distributing bracket to the bed where
the hinges go, often this place has only sheet material.
- measure where the hinges must be on the frame rails so the
bed has space to tilt (does not run into the chassis)
- drill and test the brackets to match the hinges
- drill the frame rails and test-match the hinges
- put the bed back after bolting the hinges to the brackets
and bolt the hinges to the frame rails
- add a ground-wire between bed and frame or the rear lights
will not work reliably (grounded to bed, which is only
connected through hinges to the frame)
- if you lined up the hinges properly then you can bolt the bed
in the original bolt holes in the front to carry heavy loads
- to make the bed tilt up you have to lift it by hand and put a
wood beam between the bed and frame, or you can add a lift
mechanism.
- to aid the bed when up, you can add gas-cylinders.
http://www.geocities.com/cor_van_de_water/USE/Place_for_extra_battery_box.jp
g
I have more pics if you are interested.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 8:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ranger doner
There used to be a company in Fargo that made a top that went from the cab
down to the top of the rear gate. I thought about finding a Lumina van,
since they look like they would awesome doners (fiberglass body and lots of
battry room underneath with a clean underside) but I opted for the truck as
I wanted the full cargo space and easy workability.
I've seen several conversions that have tilt-up beds for battery access. How
is that accomplished?
-Ralph
On Thu, 28 Sep 2006 05:28:42 -0000
"Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I don't doubt it. The aero drag is actually a difference of air
> > pressure on the front and back. Most people tend to only think the
> > increase in pressure in the front is significant, but the decrease in
> > pressure in back is often quite significant. The large, flat area
> > behind the cab is a problem. With the gate up, there's less of a
> > pressure drop behind the cab because the air doesn't have to turn
> > suddenly in its path.
> >
>
> There are actual government test that prove you should leave the
> tailgate up - too lazy to look for them right now, but *someone* got
> paid to prove this! Once you hear the reason for it, it does make
> logical sense, bt you have to look at the vehicle as a whole, not just
> the tailgate as a single part of it.
>
>
>
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Roger Stockton wrote:
Safety is absolutely *not* a factor; corporations are not motivated by
ethics....
What motivates a manufacturer for a low volume 'demo' project is
likely to be entirely different from what motivates them for a high
volume production run. Bear in mind that the manufacturers only built
Evs to satisfy the CA mandate that essentially said something like each
manufacturer had to place a certain fraction of their CA sales volume as
ZEVs or they would not be allowed to sell vehicles in CA. So, given the
large number of vehicles (and associated profit) that a manufacturer
such as GM stood to lose if they were unable to place the required # of
ZEVs, it makes sense that they would try to make a vehicle with as many
bells and whistles as possible so that it would have the greatest appeal
to prospective 'customers'. When you are only planning to make the bare
minimum # of vehicles (like 1000 for GM, 300 for Toyota, etc.), unit
cost is not much of an issue. And, by satisfying the ZEV quota the
manufacturer reaps the benefit of all of the profit associated with not
losing their non-ZEV sales in CA. It is still all about money, you just
have to look at the bigger picture.
That only means incentive is structured wrong. Everyone knows
corporation is after profit. So incentive (or mandate) HAS to be
structured so that profits are reduced unless corporation is
in compliance. Else they won't understand. What's so magic about it?
ZEV was forcing GM to built EV not because EVs are better, but
because by not building them GM would loose profits from ICE.
So if ZEV mandate were to be done right it should have been exempt
from being sued back by corp. No 10% EV sales by some date, loose
sale of everything else, no discussion. Mandate by definition
means no discussion. No demand (which isn't true by the way)?
Sue corporation for the failure to create demand. Simple.
No one likes mandates, but it is not the same as dictatorship.
Just takes a will power and vision beyond today.
No one likes mandate to pay taxes, well try to sue the
state for assessing it. Everyone knows money is ultimately meant
to be collected for services for goodness of people.
*Exactly* the same with mandate to produce EVs as I see it.
EVs no doubt will be around, esp. in California. I just
don't get why wait until half population choke to death first.
And just everyone knows it's headed there. Oh, well.
Sorry, wasting bandwidth.
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
If nobody with more bandwidth offers, I'll be happy to host it on one of
my servers.
My uplink connection is only 700kpbs however. Plenty big enough, unless
everyone hits it at once ;-)
> I have permission to post Renew's article on 2 EVs in Australia in a month
> or two. I don't have my own web. What is the most appropriate way of
> letting
> the list see the story? It is 300kB pdf.
>
> David Sharpe
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In response to
>
> " I want actual new pieces you can buy for you to prove
> your point. If you can't, it kind of blows your argument to
> shreds. So where are they? Inquiring minds want to know?"
> and
>
> "That is not true. Tell me one thing you can't do
> with a DC motor/controller that you can an AC one? "
>
> I have DC so, don't get me wrong, but I just thought of 2.5
>
> Drive thru deep puddles of water without worry of damage from water
> ingress and thermal shock, ie dunking hot motor in cold water repeatedly.
Hmm, what motor is this a problem with? The electric boat racers used to
use regular ADC motors with no special sealing and then dunk the whole
motor in the lake after each race to cool it down.
I've driven my truck through foot deep puddles without harming the motor.
I did fry my controller once, a GE controller that was completely exposed.
Easy fix and I've since added a splash shield to prevent reoccurance.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Done right, neither AC nor DC have problems with runaways. Done wrong,
they *both* do!
I think Don meant just a consequences of the power silicon failed short,
while the car is waiting for green to take off, nothing else. Everything
else being equal.
DC driven car has full throttle, lurch forward.
AC driven car will remain still.
If you start talking about interlocks, fuses, clutch, extra stuff
protecting DC driven car *from the scenario above*, it is lo longer
all else being equal, because AC inverters don't need all that.
Stock throttle pedal is not an AC drive failure.
Granted, when we're discussing AC drive failures we mean
failures specific to it being AC in oppose to DC.
And vise versa. Stuck throttle is a drive system component failure,
having nothing to do with it being AC or DC and saying that
AC driven car is just as prone to a failure as DC just because
throttle cord can get stuck is not valid.
Again, initial point was consequences of power silicon failure only
while car is not in motion.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Juergen Weichert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> CC: EVCO Discuss <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> From: Juergen Weichert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:59:06 -0400
> Subject: [TorontoEVA] Mayor on electric bike
>
> A couple of hours ago I had the Mayor of Ottawa on an electric bike
> today at a huge media event
> http://www.onechange.org/media-sep252006.php. At least one other city
>
> councilor (Clive Doucet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Doucet )
> rode
> one too, plus a well known media celebrity and actor Mag Ruffman.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mag_Ruffman and http://www.toolgirl.com/
>
> They all LOVED their electric bike experience.
>
> Project Porchlight will be using electric bikes equipped with
> Xtracycle
> www.xtracycle and BionX electric assist www.bionx.ca to help them
> deliver energy saving compact flourescent light bulbs throughout
> Ottawa.
> http://www.onechange.org/
>
> On related news, I just got word from the Minister of Transport for
> Ontario that the long awaited announcement to make them legal in
> Ontario
> is tentatively scheduled for next Wednesday, October 4. We have been
> working hard and waiting a long time for this. FINALLY e-bikes will
> be legal in Ontario.
>
> I encourage anyone in Ontario to call the Ministers office and
> encourage
> her to make sure it actually happens as tentatively scheduled.
> Mention the "pilot project" for electric assisted bicycles.
> http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/about/minister.htm
>
> Juergen
>
> Juergen Weichert
> 613-746-7685
> Acclivity Solutions
> www.acclivity.ca
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thundersky astonishing wishes [long]
seen here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/56811
or tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/rnrs6
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For the over-discharge quote I referred from memory, so I
> do not have a link handy, but I read from a major Li-Ion
> propulsion battery manufacturer that they investigated
> every failure that lead to their battery not performing
> as expected. All failures could be traced back to
> over-discharge. I hope someone else on this list remembers
> the tests I refer to and post a link to this manufacturer.
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Linear motor?
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Motor types. If the core group of experts agreed on a standard
terminology, it would become a defacto standard.
AC still means air conditioner to me and most car people.
it uses a [_modifier_] _type_ [_modifier_] motor
PreModifiers types PostModifier
___________________________________________________________
single phase Series Inner rotor
split phase Shunt outer rotor
three phase Compound Pancake motor
n phase Induction ironless
BLAC wheel
BLDC SEMA
wound rotor induction
SR Switched Reluctance
VR Variable Reluctance
Repulsion
eddy current
Wow, more than I thought, What did I leave off?
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