EV Digest 5944
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV from Brazil
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ranger doner
by "Kip C Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Seqway Competitors (was Seqway scooter rip-off?)
by Dennis Hogan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Seqway Competitors (was Seqway scooter rip-off?)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: emeter power supply
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Power Technology, Inc. Batteries
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Ranger doner
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Karmann Ghia vs Porsche 914
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Tesla on Yahoo Video
by "Orlando Ferrassoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC vs DC? Wound Rotor motors?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Better than a Xebra
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Truck tailgate up vs down, Was=> Re: Ranger doner
by The Terminator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Better than a Xebra
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Seqway scooter rip-off?
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AC vs DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Reliability vs. Repairability... Re: AC vs DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: emeter power supply
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Reliability vs. Repairability... Re: AC vs DC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Production EV's sold to the public
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Seqway scooter rip-off?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Insurance
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Better than a Xebra
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: DC-DC Converter not working
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Vintage VW gland nut ---was: Karmann Ghia vs Porsche 914
by The Terminator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: emeter power supply
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Insurance
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) For Sale: PowerCheq modules (10)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) PALO ALTO EV RALLY PICTURES
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Vectrix scooter review video.
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Mounting Netgain Warp 9 in an S10
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) MR2 conversion
by Scott Serr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 30 Sep 2006 at 11:16, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Another lower cost electric model...
> http://www.obvio.ind.br/obviona/828.htm
>
Still too expensive for most of us mortals. Yes, it's fast, but $49k is a
LOT of money, especially for a microcar.
PS - except for the color, I like this one's looks better than the other
one. Most people will probably disagree with me, though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point Roger.
Another factor to consider particularly in the case of a 5th wheel is that
the aerodynamics of the trailer affect the dynamics of the airspace over the
rear of the vehicle.
Those vented gates IMO are likely a complete waste of money otherwise, and a
frivolous purchase without proof to the contrary. One is probably better
off just to remove the stock one for the weight reduction.
-
Kip
85 MR2 Conversion in progress . .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Presumably you have/had a stock tailgate for your F250 also; did *you*
measure any significant diference in mileage between the two? I suspect
a lot of full-timers haven't measured either, but simply parrot the
marketing claims because everyone "knows" that leaving the tailgate
open/off, etc. *must* improve the mileage. It would be really
interesting to have actual mileage figures for a closed stock tailgate,
an open tailgate, and a vented 5th wheel tailgate on the same vehicle...
It is entirely possible that the open tailgate mileage is *worse* than
either of the alternatives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gorilla Vehicles has a very nice 3-wheel personal electric utility vehicle, the
Chimp, that I've ridden. It is not intended as a Seqway rip-off, but a much
improved Seqway competitor. I was very impressed with it.
http://www.gorillavehicles.com/chimp.htm
Rick Doran is the designer/builder. For those who do not know him, he is the
designer/builder of the Doran Electric Sports Car
http://www.gorillavehicles.com/Doran.htm
http://www.rqriley.com/doran.html
http://home.austin.rr.com/ev3po/ev3po%20specs.htm
and has a long history in the EV industry.
I purchased his plans from Robert Q Riley Enterprises,
http://www.rqriley.com/index.html
which has plans for a number of other electric vehicles (I purchased the plans
for all of them - one day I may actually build one).
=====================
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: 2006/09/30 Sat AM 10:38:33 CDT
To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Seqway scooter rip-off?
So, has anyone played with one of these Sort-of-Segway rip-offs yet?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000ER9QK4/sr=1-11/qid=1159630159/ref=sr_1_11/102-3224364-4168934?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=A1N8YDZFW5QVB6&v=glance
"4 wheel stand-up Electric Chariot Scooter - similar toSegway "
Yeah, 4 wheels, but they do their best to make it look like 2.
--John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] soar and Tigers prowl while
Idream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Segway's "balancing act" is no technical mystery, it's a textbook
control system problem. Amateurs have even made similar balancing
devices out of Lego Explorer sets (which come with embedded,
programmable electronics). Expense-wise, the accelerometers are the
lion's share of the problem. I'm assuming Segway is aggressively
defending a patent on the whole "balancing scooter" product.
Danny
Dennis Hogan wrote:
Gorilla Vehicles has a very nice 3-wheel personal electric utility vehicle, the
Chimp, that I've ridden. It is not intended as a Seqway rip-off, but a much
improved Seqway competitor. I was very impressed with it.
http://www.gorillavehicles.com/chimp.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, I found them on mouser for about $8.
http://www.mouser.com/search/productdetail.aspx?R=NTE1212MCvirtualkey58010000virtualkey580-NTE1212MC
Can I get a 2nd opinion that this will provide
isolation, so I don't blow up my emeter?
--- Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just the night before last, I was going through the
> Link-10-related
> circuits in my Sparrow. Corbin used a tiny
> 12VDC-to-12VDC converter to
> provide isolation between the 12V system and the
> Link-10 (at least in
> the later part of the Sparrow run.) The part was an
> NTE1212. It can
> only handle 1W, but that's plenty. These are very
> cheap.
>
> - Jake Oshins
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:36 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: emeter power supply
>
> No, Look at the diagrams in your E-meter diagrams.
> You should isolated
> the
> on board 12 volt battery circuits from the E-meter.
>
> If you do not, than the negative of the 12 volt
> battery is connected to
> the
> negative of the battery pack, which would be
> connected to the frame of
> the
> EV by the 12 volt negative grounding system.
>
> The E-meter has a optional module which In my case
> for a Link-10, is a
> DC-DC
> converter No. DC2410 you can get from
> www.evparts.com.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 11:32 AM
> Subject: emeter power supply
>
>
> > which dc-dc power supplies are isolated enough to
> > power the emeter?
> >
> > I was wondering if I hooked up an iota dc charger
> to
> > my 120vdc pack to charge my 12volt accessory
> battery,
> > and then ran an inverter to 120vac and then used a
> > wall-box to go to 12vdc...would there be any
> isolation
> > there?
> >
> > Since I own all those components all ready...I
> > wouldn't have to purchase a $150 dc-dc power
> supply...
> >
> > but your ideas are welcome.
> >
> > thanks!
> >
> > Michael Golub
> > 86 toyota
> > fairbanks
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the opinion of the group with regards to Power Technology, Inc.
batteries? http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger wrote -
> Presumably you have/had a stock tailgate for your F250 also; did *you*
> measure any significant diference in mileage between the two?
Yes I have had stock tailgates, but in any case I wasn't talking about *me*, I
was referring to *other full timers*
> I suspect
> a lot of full-timers haven't measured either, but simply parrot the
> marketing claims because everyone "knows" that leaving the tailgate
> open/off, etc. *must* improve the mileage.
I wouldn't be too *sure* about that Roger... lots of those old timers are
retired machinists, electricans, engineers etc, who are used to being able to
*prove* what they say. I'm sure that some of them have logs with orders of
precision to the hundredths... They love to discuss how many mpg they get with
a headwind and with a tailwind, going down a hill and up a hill. They have lots
of experience as a collective whole.
> It would be really
> interesting to have actual mileage figures for a closed stock tailgate,
> an open tailgate, and a vented 5th wheel tailgate on the same vehicle...
> It is entirely possible that the open tailgate mileage is *worse* than
> either of the alternatives.
And the opposite is true also, it is entirely possible that the open tailgate
milage is *better* that the alternative. Many things are *possible*
Grasshopper... <G>
>> The vented gate is basically no tail gate at all...
> Don't bet on it ;^>
Mine is... if you care to look at it here is a link
http://www.ironandwood.org/tailgate.htm
> Someone was telling me the other day about towing
> one of those utility trailers with the mesh/screen tailgate/loading
> ramps. The ramp/tailgate is normally folded up so it sticks straight up
> in the air, but it is see-through mesh, so no one gives it a second
> thought. Well, this person found that they just couldn't get up to
> cruising speed on the highway, even with the trailer empty, and
> eventually pulled over and removed the mesh tailgate and laid it flat on
> the trailer... lo and behold, no problem running right on up to the 70
> or 80mph or so they wanted to cruise at.
Roger, what do mesh/screen tailgate/loading ramps have to do with tailgates?
The *story* could well be true... if he had loading ramps that stuck 6 or 8 ft
straight up in the air, it would well be that the screen or material that the
ramps were made out of deflected the air in such a way as to inhibit good
aerodynamics. But I'm pretty sure that most EV'ers don't have loading ramps
sticking straight up in the air from the the beds of their pickups... He may
have also had a headwind, now if he had had a tailwind his *story* might be
very different...
> Now since I started this, let me remind people that my original point
> was not whether an open or closed tailgate is more or less efficient,
> but that one should *measure* for themselves to determine what
> configuration is more efficient for them in their particular situation
> (e.g short or long bed, etc). In this specific case, the point wasn't
> open or closed tailgates, but rather replacing a stock box with a
> flatbed, and my suggestion was to *not* assume which is more efficient,
> but to measure the efficiency with the stock box first so that one can
> determine if the later change to a flatbed is an improvement or not.
As usual the thread has veered off in another direction, they have a tendancy
to do that <G>. But the intent is there, to give *evidence*, however unreliable
you may deem it to be that either supports or does not support your
*assumption*. If you are pissed that the thread is not following your
direction, then that is another matter..
> By all means don't trust me, science, Mythbusters, or the gov't; measure
> it for yourself! Just don't stick your head in the sand and ignore the
> possibility that what you "know" might be incorrect.
It's not that you are not trusted Roger, you have contributed a great deal of
your knowledge and we respect your words. But others also have experiences and
knowledge and have the right to express it without being told that we are
sticking our heads in the sand...
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
Hth...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> On Sep 29, 2006, at 8:35 PM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> The Ghia has four seats, the 914 only two. Granted the Ghia seats are
>> only good for small children,
>
> Or groceries. The 914 has very little cargo space, especially after
> you fill it with EV components.
? 914 comes stock with TWO trunks, plenty of space ;-) Ok the back trunk
isn't very deep. Ditch the spare tire (not really needed on an EV and the
front trunk is pretty spacious.
>> however this means it has less room in the front seats.
>
> On the other hand, how far can you recline the front seats on a 914? I
> get the impression that it's not far. The firewall is in the way. My
> Ghia seats will recline far enough to stretch out almost flat.
> (They're custom Scat seats, though. Stock seats might not recline at
> all.)
Stock seats on 914s dont recline. In fact they pretty much define "bucket
seats" the bottom and back are one solid piece of plastic or fiberglass.
> Parts for the Porsche are more expensive.
Very true, however many VW parts will work as direct substitutes,
depending on what you are replacing.
> The 914 has all-wheel disk brakes (? Is this true?). The Ghia has
> disks in the front and drums in the rear.
Yup, absolutely. Stock disc brakes aren't terrible but there are some
really nice upgrades available. Everything from using BMW calipers to
replacing the running gear with 911 parts.
> Ghias are cuter :)
True. I just can't stand driving them, I feel like I'm in a clown car. A
convertible might be nice though.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a video of the Tesla on Yahoo Video.
Enjoy...
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?&vid=c860df3ccf66c83fb61bb2ffd934330b.8891
83&cache=1
Orlando S. Ferrassoli
Operations
Phone: 1 800 778-5678
Phone: 1 661 273-2220
Fax: 1 661 273-2221
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Steven,
Though I'm not Lee, I've thought about this also. The wound rotors
are extremely low resistance, high current, making it hard to use high
voltages. I think the high-voltage, low-current version of this is known
as a "doubly-fed induction generator". There are many papers on the use
of them in wind generators for minimizing the reactive power, but a
cursory search did not reveal anyone using them for motors.
Unfortunately, these are rare (AFAIK) so you won't be getting any
surplus for EVs...
I believe the "perfect" EV motor would be an inverted
separately-excited motor: lifetime brushes on the two slip rings;
electronically commutated, so nearly-zero chance of stuck-on condition;
adjustable field control improves low-end torque without burning power
in resistors; and spark-free regen. Now I just have to come up with a
few tens-of-thousands of dollars (more?) to start manufacturing them :(
Cory Cross
Steven Ciciora wrote:
Lee,
What would be the advantages and disadvantages of
extiting the wound rotor directly, through the
slip-rings? My thinking is that it would become a
synchronous AC motor. But would that be a "good"
thing? I imagine there is some optimum exciting
level; what would hapen if you over-excited the rotor?
Under-excited the rotor?
I know a lot of questions, but I'd really like to hear
what you have to say about this. You see, I have this
400 Hz aircraft alternator...
Thanks for your time,
Steven Ciciora
<snip>
However, the traditional meaning of a "wound rotor
induction motor" is
one where the windings are not shorted on the motor;
rather, they are
routed to slip rings so they can be shorted
externally. Being able to
control the rotor resistance externally lets you
control slip, starting
torque, operating voltage and current, efficiency,
and many other
parameters. Many large induction motors are
wound-rotor motors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I should have titled this "The Chinese are coming". Check out the
specs and looks of this new three wheeler from China. They have a US
distributor already and a showroom in Los Angeles.. It looks very
interesting. Has anyone seen one in person yet or can someone in the area
stop by and check it out?
http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.10/459 - Release Date: 9/29/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just an FYI,
Early in the NASCAR truck series they wind tunnel tested these set-ups and
I think that is where they found some trucks did better with the gate up.
At high speeds over 115 mph, the air "bubble" in the bed became so
pressurized that the "Clean air" (new air over the roof of cab) just
flowed over the bubble and the gate kept the bubble in tact. I am sure
something is written in the NASCAR chat rooms.
Mythbusters are Mythcreators on a lot of subjects since they have a long
way to go to learn the scientific method.
Just my bubble burst worth.
Jimmy
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I saw that episode of Mythbusters as well. Maybe this really does depend
on the truck because I
actually saw the low pressure spinning motion happening the other day
while driving down the
freeway. It was a Chevy Avalanche truck that had a tarp loosely set in the
bed. He was going down the
freeway at 75mph or so and the tarp was bouncing around in a ratating
motion from the front to back.
It looked like it was going to fly out of the back of the truck, but it
just kept tumbling in a
circular motion.
Now alternately on the production S-10 electric trucks they had a half
tonneau cover on the back
half of the bed for aerodynamic purposes. We've also done the 5th wheel
thing and had the open tail
gates as well, but never really paid much attention to the mileage.
On the Mythbusters episode they used Ford trucks to show the water tank
motion and also in their
actual road test. Maybe it's time to build a wind tunnel. I have a fog
machine we can probably use.
Ricky Suiter
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Ranger doner
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2006 21:18:25 -0700
I'm going to chime in here also.
I hauled a 5th wheel for 2 years (still have it...) with my F250 and I got
myself a vented tail
gate. It also has a low part in the center so that when you go to hitch up
the 5th wheel, all you
have to do is back up the pickup and not lower the tail gate to clear the
hitch.
I got the vented tail gate for 2 reasons -
1) easier to hitch and unhitch and
2) all the full timers that I met said that they got much better mileage
with the vented gate,
whether the 5th wheel was hitched or unhitched.
The vented gate is basically no tail gate at all...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Better than a Xebra
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2006 13:23:48 -0700
>Maybe I should have titled this "The Chinese are coming".
>Check out the specs and looks of this new three wheeler
>from China. They have a US distributor already and a
>showroom in Los Angeles.. It looks very interesting. Has
>anyone seen one in person yet or can someone in the area
>stop by and check it out?
>http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
I just called him and it sounds interesting at under
$8k list and seems interested in selling wholesale too.
He was in Huston when I called puting them in a
showroom there. There are some to test drive at his place.
One thing is these are 1 front wheel 3wheelers
which means one has to slow down a lot before turning. It's
50 mph top speed is about max you want to go in one of these
though he says on the website you can make it go faster.
I told him his idea of a Fla showroom would be a
great idea as they would sell well here to seniors, others.
Jerry Dycus
>
>Roderick Wilde
>EV Parts, Inc.
>www.evparts.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like this part...
"It is much harder to fell off unless you are going at 10
MPH and hitting a bump."
I think Segway is overpriced anyway. For $5000 I could
build a conversion that goes more the 12 miles and 12 miles
per hour.
12 miles and 12 mph shouldn't cost much over $1000. Don't
some of the e-bikes get better than that, and cost not more
than a few hundred $$'s
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John G.
Lussmyer
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 7:39 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Seqway scooter rip-off?
So, has anyone played with one of these Sort-of-Segway
rip-offs yet?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000ER9QK4/sr=
1-11/qid=1159630159/ref=sr_1_11/102-3224364-4168934?%5Fencod
ing=UTF8&me=A1N8YDZFW5QVB6&v=glance
"4 wheel stand-up Electric Chariot Scooter - similar to
Segway "
Yeah, 4 wheels, but they do their best to make it look
like 2.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Yes, mathematically losses are the same. But, thinner cable is so much
easier to crimp, route, bend and otherwise to work with.
That's true. There are lots of incidental reasons why a given designer
might prefer a low-current to a high-current system. I'm just saying
efficiency isn't one of them.
Assume you want a certain amount of power, and that you can pick the
system voltage. It usually works out best to have a "square" system,
with roughly equal voltage and current levels. Then round off the
voltage to the nearest standard level. For example:
for 300w, use 17v and 17a
examples: 24v 12a (electric bike)
for 1000w, use 33v and 33a
examples: 36v 30a (scooter)
for 3000w, use 55v and 55a
examples: 36v 75a (golf cart)
for 10kw, use 100v and 100a
examples: 72v 150a (NEV), 120v 80a (Geo Metro EV)
for 30kw, use 173v and 173a
examples: 96v 300a (VW Rabbit EV), 144v 200a (Solectria Force)
for 100kw, use 300v and 330a
examples: 120v 500a (hobbyist EV), 330v 300a (GM EV1)
In most cases, the normal voltages and currents are about equal. The
only cases where they are significantly different (more than 2:1) is for
a hobbyist EVs. That's because hobbyists are not engineers, and
generally use whatever is expedient and available, rather than a
carefully optimized choice.
A "square" system tends to be the best compromise between extremes. It
optimizes the various tradeoffs between cost, reliability, ease of use,
safety, etc.
If you try a much higher voltage than current, then you have problems
with insulation, leakage, arcing, shock hazard, expensive components,
large numbers of parts which lowers reliability, etc. Small increases in
voltage makes these problems get a lot worse.
If you try for a much higher current than voltage, you have problems
with overheated connections, physically large parts, expensive
components, it's harder to wire, etc. Each further small increase in
current makes these problems get a lot worse.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
When talking of reliability and repairability, I do not think it is a
comparison of AC vs DC. It is a comparison of manufacturers.
I agree; in fact, it relates to the design *philosophy* of the manufacturer.
Some (most?) manufacturers build everything as throw-away items. It's
built as cheaply as possible -- just barely good enough to live past its
warranty. When it breaks, it is meant to be discarded; not fixed.
Therefore, they supply ZERO servicing information and ZERO repair parts.
In many cases, they *deliberately* design it to make servicing as hard
as possible -- they pot it in glue, or remove the part numbers inside
(only using secret internal parts numbers), or design custom parts so no
one else can get them.
This scheme works well for commodity items, where there are dozens of
roughly equivalent interchangeable products on the market. The industry
has de facto standards, so if you have to replace it, the new one is
available, will fit, will plug in, and will work basically the same.
But it works TERRIBLE for EV parts! They tend to last a very long time,
so they need to be repairable. But there are no de facto standards;
everything is still evolving and changing, so almost everything is
custom. Manufacturers are small, inexperienced, and frequently go out of
business. Failure rates are high, due to lack of experience by both the
manufacturer and customer, and because the operating environment is very
harsh.
This means the odds are that a) the product will fail sooner rather than
later, b) the manufacturer will be out of business, or otherwise
unwilling or unable to fix it, c) replacements won't be available, and
d) competitor's products won't fit or won't work.
So in this market, I think it is necessary for manufacturers to make
their products REPAIRABLE. They need to provide parts lists and service
information. Otherwise, they will only be encouraging their own failure
in the market, and will damage (rather than encourage) the future growth
of EVs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Can I get a 2nd opinion that this will provide
isolation, so I don't blow up my emeter?
Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sparrow... Corbin used a tiny 12VDC-to-12VDC converter to provide
isolation between the 12V system and the Link-10...
The part was an NTE1212. It can only handle 1W, but that's plenty.
These are very cheap.
Cheap, but not good.
The Link 10 (aka E-meter) draws about 150ma at 12v in full sunlight (it
brightens its display based on the ambient light level). 12v x 0.15a =
1.8 watts, which is a significant overload for a 1 watt DC/DC converter.
The input voltage range for the NTE1212 is 10.8-13.2v. This is
inadequate; the accessory battery and its DC/DC converter can easily
range from 10.5v to 15v.
Most importantly, the input/output isolation for this part is wholly
inadequate for an EV. The advertising claims 1000vdc; but read the data
sheet (at http://www.cd4power.com/data/power/ncl/kdc_ntec.pdf)! It says:
A question commonly asked is, "What is the continuous voltage
rating that can be applied across the part in normal operation?"
...less than 42.4 vac peak, or 60vdc... The part should never be
used as an element of a safety isolation system... The NTE series
has toroidal transformers, with no additional insulation between
primary and secondary windings of enameled wire.
The DC/DC converter that you use to power a Link-10 / E-meter needs
*guaranteed* isolation sufficient to withstand your full pack voltage
continuously. You aren't going to find this on a cheap DC/DC. The one
Cruising Equipment used was a Datel part that cost over $30; but it was
rated at 1500vac, UL listed, 9-19vdc input, and 12vdc at 0-250ma output.
Or, you can use an AC/DC universal input, DC-output power supply to
power the Link-10 / E-meter directly from your pack. Such supplies
almost always have isolation voltage ratings of 1500v or more, and are
UL listed (which means they have to GUARANTEE that it is isolated). For
example, I am using an Astrodyne MSCC-5003 which has 3000vac isolation,
85-265vac (90-370vdc) input, 15v, 0-0.33a. This is a potted module with
screw terminals that sells for $80, they have cheaper versions if you
want to package it yourself.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
David Sharpe wrote:
I'd like to correct something here. If [one] would consider truck
electrical systems as automotive, there are brushless 24V alternators
around.
Yes, indeed! Large truck and bus manufacturers *do* care about
reliability, instead of just giving lip service to the concept like the
auto manufacturers.
My point was that the automakers claimed they had to eliminate brushes
from their EVs for "reliability", when 100% of the motors and
alternators they use in all their ICE vehicles have brushes.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Something I don't have the answer to: I know Toyota sold some RAV-4 EV's here
in California. GM leased and then crushed all the EV-1's. Some Ford pickups
have found their way into the hands of the general public, but not many, and I
have the impression that they are all resales from corporate and municipal
fleets (?)
Anyway, my quetsion is this: Does anyone know how many major company
manufactured EV's have been offered to the public since the 1920's? For
example, Solectrias, Xebras and Tropica's don't count (not major corporation);
the EV-1 would count if it had ever been sold to the public (which it wasn't.)
Does anyone know the answer? I'd like to know the facts to respond to the
"electric cars failed in the marketplace" arguments I hear all the time.
---------------------------------
All-new Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster.
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In my opinion Segways are an impressively complicated (and therefore
failure-prone) technological solution to a "problem" with a simple, obvious,
and reliable mechanical answer. Didn't any of those guys ever hear of Lord
Ockham?
Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I like this part...
"It is much harder to fell off unless you are going at 10
MPH and hitting a bump."
I think Segway is overpriced anyway. For $5000 I could
build a conversion that goes more the 12 miles and 12 miles
per hour.
12 miles and 12 mph shouldn't cost much over $1000. Don't
some of the e-bikes get better than that, and cost not more
than a few hundred $$'s
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of John G.
Lussmyer
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 7:39 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Seqway scooter rip-off?
So, has anyone played with one of these Sort-of-Segway
rip-offs yet?
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000ER9QK4/sr=
1-11/qid=1159630159/ref=sr_1_11/102-3224364-4168934?%5Fencod
ing=UTF8&me=A1N8YDZFW5QVB6&v=glance
"4 wheel stand-up Electric Chariot Scooter - similar to
Segway "
Yeah, 4 wheels, but they do their best to make it look
like 2.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am taking possession of a 1981 ford escort which was an experimental car
converted to an electric vehicle at the Ford Dearborn factory. This car has
only 15400 miles on it. The body is in excellent condition. I want to insure
the car so that will not be totaled for a fender bender. What can I do to get
insurance coverage of 10,000 dollars. Does any one know of an EV auto
appraiser in the North Eastern Illinois Area. I live in Gurnee, IL about sixty
miles north of the Chicago Loop.
--
In Friendship, Ted
//ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
//ffni.home.comcast.net
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Walking :-) Walking seems, IMHO, better than a xebra.
Paul "neon" G.
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Replaced the fuse ($4 each, ouch), but it blew right away. Pulled the
DC/DC. When you shake it, it rattles. CC Power Electronics Model
C400. Time for a new one.
On 9/29/06, Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On 9/29/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is there a fuse between the DC/DC output and the 12V battery?
No, but there is a fuse in the DC/DC (now that I went in looked), and
it's blown. Always check the obvious.
Not sure of the model, but it came with the electroauto kit. Looks
like I need to find a F5AL250V fuse now...
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Speaking of gland nuts, can someone tell me the thread pitch, size and
depth of the tapped hole for the gland nut used to secure the vintage
VW/Ghia flywheel to the crank? I am thinking of installing the clutch in
the Karmann GhiLectric - so I need to fab a coupler. It is a tough
decision, because it is so simple and lighter without the clutch.
Jimmy
https://www.dm3electrics.com/
From: "Electro Automotive" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Yes the transmission adapter is identical.
They are very close, but NOT identical. The adaptor hub is different
(one large gland nut for the Ghia vs. five small bolts for the 914),
the ring is different thickness, and there is a slight difference in
the profile plate.
Mike Brown
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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At 02:47 PM 9/30/2006, Lee Hart wrote:
The input voltage range for the NTE1212 is 10.8-13.2v. This is
inadequate; the accessory battery and its DC/DC converter can easily
range from 10.5v to 15v.
Lee, he was talking about a Sparrow. There is no accessory
battery. Just the main DC-DC.
Also, a question: If the 12V input to the NTE1212 is isolated from
the main pack (which it is on some Sparrows) does that reduce the
need for the full 1500v isolation?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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You are wise to do this.
EV parts for this model total about 7-9,000. The
labor to convert, should it be totaled in a
catastrophic accident, would be about $4K, but of
course labor can't be insured.
You want a stated-value policy, which means your
underwriter will likely require that you document the
worth of the components. A quick printout from KTA
Services, ElectroAutomotive, etc.
Mine is via Allstate, and did't cost a dime more than
a regular policy. I do however, have an airbag.
BTW, not all Allstate reps will let you do stated
value, let alone a 3rd party conversion. Go figger'.
peace,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I am taking possession of a 1981 ford escort which
> was an experimental car converted to an electric
> vehicle at the Ford Dearborn factory. This car has
> only 15400 miles on it. The body is in excellent
> condition. I want to insure the car so that will
> not be totaled for a fender bender. What can I do
> to get insurance coverage of 10,000 dollars. Does
> any one know of an EV auto appraiser in the North
> Eastern Illinois Area. I live in Gurnee, IL about
> sixty miles north of the Chicago Loop.
>
> --
> In Friendship, Ted
> //ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
> //ffni.home.comcast.net
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 10 PowerCheq modules for sale. $400 for the lot.
http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/PowerCheq-Lo.jpg
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I posted a few pics from the rally today. The last are my Yaris to be
converted.
Mark
http://electricyaris.com/
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--- Begin Message ---
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI8k0c9diyE&eurl=
>
> I wants.
>
> -Mike
>
Nice, well-produced vid, but putting the top speed of 62mph in the
same statement as the 68mi range claim is deceptive: that range was
based on a test run at 25mph (equates to <30mi at top speed).
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the ADC has a lifting hole? cool.
I didn't know the warp 9 I got was missing anything, I used tie down
straps from Harbor freight (the heavy duty ones) thru the hook on my
engine hoist and didn't miss an eyebolt hole. When you use straps, go
once around the motor before going thru the hoist so as you lift it
grabs and won't, er, land on something important.
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In the next year, I'd like to learn enough to do a conversion on my
beloved 1985 Toyota MR2. It was a wonderful car from 1991 to 2001.
I've been keeping it around knowing that I'm either going to restore it
(rebuild engine and tranny) or convert it to electric. Seeing gas
prices for the last year... you know why I just joined the list.
I've seen a couple first generation MR2 conversions on the net... But
since I don't have a working tranny, I'd like to investigate direct
drive or wheel motors like the ones on the PML Mini QED.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PML_Mini_QED
Also... I don't necessarily want to go slow. If it takes another +$2-3K
over a basic conversion to make it really move, thats the way I'd like
to go. The 1.6L 112hp engine was surprisingly quick and I'd like to
once again be excited about going to get groceries. :)
I'm going to read this list in a dedicated sort of way. Any other
advice? Ideas about direct drive? I rather not have to buy a used
tranny just to introduce more waste from the motor to the wheels.
I saw somewhere (a month ago but can't find it now) the effective prices
of doing the PML Mini conversion. Of course it was expensive... Mini +
4 Motors + Batteries + Capacitors + etc etc etc.. was something like $55K?
Anyone want to give a newbie a little direction? I've started reading
the "wikibook" on EVs.
Thanks,
Scott
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