EV Digest 5964
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Big/unexpected voltage drop
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Need IL300-E IC
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Better than a Xebra
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Stupid Question?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: series wound motor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AW: series wound motor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zapi controllers, usable regen?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Better than a Xebra
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re Islands
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Pass on the "Go" (Long rant),
was: EVLN(The Electric Vehicle is a big tease)
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Patrick Clarke wrote:
> Since I started getting educated and paying more attention to the
> voltage, I've noted that going up our biggest hill at the
> beginning of commute, sags the voltage during the climb to about
> 110-111 on a fresh charge (it goes right back up at the top of
> the hill). Is that bad, too?
No, not bad in the sense of harmful to the batteries. I have chosen my commute
route to also place my biggest hill on the way to work near the start of my
commute, and will see a similar sag and immediate recovery.
> For reference, when we get home each day, the resting voltage
> is usually in the low-mid 120s, and slowly ticks up a bit for
> a while.
My pack behaves likewise.
> What is a normal amount of sag for healthy AGMs?
I really can't say as I've yet to have a healthy pack in my car! ;^>
My present pack was donated to me by another EVer after he could no longer make
his commute with it (about 1yr or use, I think), and then sat for about 5-6
years waiting for me to complete my conversion.
> Is there a specific torque to tighten them too?
Not that I'm aware of. I don't personally place a lot of emphasis on specific
torque values, but rather just make sure things are good and tight.
> How cold does the ambient temp have to get to affect the pack
> - and how does it affect it? Higher watthrs/mile, more voltage
> sag, all of the above?
Temperature affects the batteries right away, and the colder it gets, the
larger the effect.
>From Hawker's literature, for instance:
Temperature °C -20 0 25 40 55
% Capacity 65 84 100 110 120
> Any good rules of thumb for playing nicely with batteries
> during the winter?
Fortunately, our Pacific NW winters (I'm in Vancouver, BC) aren't that extreme
;^>
This will be my first winter driving my EV, so I can only repeat what others
have said here before, that is, if you charge and discharge daily the batteries
should remain somewhat warmer than ambient. If you can get some insulation
around the batteries to help keep this heat in, that will certainly help.
Based on Hawker's data above, we'd probably expect to see about a 15-20%
reduction in range in winter due to our coldest temps being around freezing,
and it sounds like you normally have nore than enough range to make your
commute so the big thing is just to recognise that your winter range will be
about this much less than in summer so you don't get out somewhere and
overdischarge the pack.
> So what's the best diagnostic procedure and would a dedicated
> battery tester of some sort be a good idea? Would simply checking
> each batteries resting voltage after a charge be a good start or
> be immaterial?
I think a good approach is as Mike suggested; use the heater, etc. to put a
load on the pack and measure each battery to see which one(s) are behaving
differently from the others.
This is best done at the end of a drive, before charging, since you will be
looking for the battery(ies) with less capacity than the others.
I don't think resting voltage after charging is going to be that helpful unless
you have had a dramatic battery failure.
> One other data point - the one "incident" I'm aware of is
> that back in February, before the car was really being driven
> much, there was a problem with the DC/DC that resulted in the
> pack being pretty well drained (I think the individual batteries
> were like 5-6 volts).
> - would it have shortened the lifespan dramatically without
> killing them outright, and be showing the effects only now?
This probably did 'injure' the batteries, though overdischarging them at a low
rate like this may not be as damaging as doing it at a high current (such as
when driving).
I don't know that this would be the cause of your present problems, but it is
not impossible.
What make/model battery are you running?
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Altair Tech batteries- they purchased $750K worth The UQM motor do
look great- If I could get one with controller for $13K I would buy
it now! They have some great features!
On Oct 4, 2006, at 11:21 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to
ask if
they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
two years
out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque
and a wide
power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of
the UQM
might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
motors available today.
What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
price for
the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
according to my
conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the
batteries
must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So,
$44k just
in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it
will say
much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to
order in
Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I
may just
have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or
two, but I
really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer offered:
> Well, you could have your cord setup so that if the car rolls away, it
> unplugs itself.
This is exactly what was done with many of the early 20th century electrics.
Many (as with my 1921 Milburn) located their charge connector below the frame
at the rear of the car, facing aft. The connectors themselves were commonly
Anderson "coaxial" Type-N (?) power connectors, with spring-return weather
door. Depending on the strength of the power cord conceivably, if the driver
drove off with the plug connected, it would just pull out and land on the
ground.
You can't do this with modern twist lock connectors, but perhaps with up to
175a Andersons you could.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major thing
about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or solectria or
siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically smaller.
I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to ask if
they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle two years
out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque and a wide
power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of the UQM
might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
motors available today.
What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target price for
the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive according to my
conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the batteries
must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So, $44k just
in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it will say
much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to order in
Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I may just
have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or two, but I
really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm doing some battery charger repair and need some Vishay IL300-E
Optocouplers. I have not been able to find anyone with these available
in the quantities I'm looking for (about 10 of them). The big suppliers
don't want to deal with such a small quantity.
Does anyone know of an electronic supplier who has these things in stock
and will sell them in small quantities?
-Tom
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless those batts are huge (as in a double pack) the specs are *way*
overrated, I'd think.
> Maybe I should have titled this "The Chinese are coming". Check out the
> specs and looks of this new three wheeler from China. They have a US
> distributor already and a showroom in Los Angeles.. It looks very
> interesting. Has anyone seen one in person yet or can someone in the area
> stop by and check it out?
> http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
> EV Parts, Inc.
> www.evparts.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes you can, but I doubt you'll save much or weight or complexity. In
order to run without a transmission, you need a larger motor, or perhaps
two motors. Since a second motor weighs about as much as a transmission,
you don't end up saving any weight.
Also, running without a tranny means that most of the time the motor(s)
are running in the low efficiency portion of their torque curve, so you
range falls. In order to end up with the same range, you need to add more
batteries (more weight).
Now all of the above assumes you are using a series wound motor. Many of
the AC motors can run with a single speed transmission, though I don't
think any of the economically available ones have enough torque to run
connected directly to a standard differential.
Solectria makes a single speed transmission that connects directly to
their motor and includes a differential, it's very light weight. I
believe it's less than 50 lbs. I'd weigh mine, but I don't feel like
separating it from the motor.
> Just a theoretical and possibly stupid question:
>
>
>
> To reduce weight as well as complexity, can the transmission be removed
> and
> the drive shaft connected directly to the motor?
>
>
>
> Shifting isn't really necessary, right?
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A coupel points that Lee didn't mention. In order to use a series wound
motor as a generator, and avoid arcing, you need to set the brushes for a
neutral position. You need to do this because running it as a generator
you wnat to have the brushes retarded from neutral, but running it as a
motor you want them advanced. Neutral is a compromise that doesn't work
really weel for either, but avoids problems with each as long as you keep
the current down.
This has two negative effects on using the motor as a motor. It limits
your maximum current when driving (otherwise arcing occures), and it
lowers the motors efficiency.
If you can get a motor with interpole,s it would help greatly.
Interpoles will allow the motor to run more efficiently and with less
problems with arcing.
The other important item to note is that Regen just recovers part of the
energy used to increase speed (or altitude, i.e. climb a hill). Energy
used to move the vehicle down the road is GONE.
So unless you are spending a lot of time accelrating/decelerating, or
going up and down hills. You won't get much back from regen.
For example, let's say you drive 10 miles at a constant 55mph and average
250 watts per mile.
How much of that can you recover with regen?
Answere: none of it.
The extra energy used to acclerate from 0mph to 55 mph can be partially
recovered, but not the energy used to get from point A to point B.
> The more common method to get regen with a series motor is to keep the
> field and armature wired in series -- this insures that the series field
> is always as strong as the armature's field, to minimize arcing. The
> motor will generate a voltage that varies considerably with rpm.
-snip-
>> From what I have seen regen is nice but not the panacea that it
>> appears to be; you only get about 50% back from braking (80% motor
>> * 80% silicon [both ways] * 80% battery)...
>
> That's about right. Each part loses 10-20% or so of your energy. The
> energy has to pass through so many parts between driving and charging
> that you're doing well to get 50% of it back.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Isn't the problem with a series-wound motor that the voltage created is
> proportional to the speed, meaning that the voltage created is either
> initially too high or, as you slow down, too low? Or it may be too low
> to begin with.
No the problem with a series wound motor is that their is NO direct
relationship between RPM and voltage.
You can have high voltage at low RPM and low voltage at high RPM, or
vice-versa all depending on how much current you are drawing. The less
current, the more voltage.
> One thing that came to mind is that rearranging batteries (as with a
> contactor) into a lower voltage pack would alleivate the need for a
> boost converter. Also, an even better solution was the previous idea of
> a controller switching every battery in and out of a string, which would
> make the bucking requirements quite reasonable.
Nope, not with a series wound motor. Wouldn't work without some kind of
voltage/current controller
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
So as not to confuse anyone about the Electropolitan... It runs
normally at 120 VDC (10 sealed AGM's). However, notice the empty
battery tray in the photo. In order to run 1/8 mile instead of 1/4 mile
(it is geared rather low) I removed 2 batteries and ran at 96 volts at
PoDC. Due to the fact that the Zapi has a low voltage shut down I had
to lie to the controller and manually program a false battery reading.
This feature also comes in handy when you are trying to intentionally
destroy the batteries by dragging them down to nothing.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 4 Oct 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: Zapi controllers, usable regen?
The 400A 1221B-7401 in my EV provides marginal performance. I'm
following this thread with great interest.
Here's a link to a photo of the Zapi in Shawn's Electropolitan. The
picture was taken in June of 2005 at the Power of DC event...
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/resource.asp?func=display&resid=1228&tr
ee=603&thumb=1&id=404
Here's the TinyURL... http://tinyurl.com/ox7hf
-Dave
On Oct 2, 2006, at 7:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chris
I have been running H2's and H3's for several years. I can tell you >
that at least in my case, the Zapi takes all I can dish out. I can >
stop the Electropolitan from full speed (65-70) mph to a crawl as >
quick as I want using regen alone. The AGM's seem to love it.
Shawn
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 7:08 PM
Subject: Zapi controllers, usable regen?
On Mon, October 2, 2006 5:36 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
...
my world record 1.8K Zilla for $100K. Not a bad choice for a light
weight EV is the 120 volt zapi 800 amp with regen for series motors.
The regen is real cool on my street car and the controller is
relatively cheap. Not Zilla performance but enough to run 70+ on the
freeway and still put you back in the seat at the redlight.
The understanding that I've had about these controllers is that regen
generally doesn't work -- the controllers blow up when you try to use
it,
and so most folks don't bother (or learn the hard way). How many
folks
out there are successfully getting regen out of a Zapi into a 120V >
pack?
With what motors?
--chris
_______________________________________________________________________>
_
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from >
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________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
across the web, free AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kind of hard to make this setup and still look professional.
Impossible if you are using the standard AVCON.
May be there is a way to electrically lock the brake so that you could
not even roll the car. I think some racers do that to the front
wheels to burn rubber.
On 10/4/06, John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
At 09:03 AM 10/4/2006, Edward Ang wrote:
>Seriously guys, there is no way to prevent 100% unless you lock the
>wheel when you are plugged in. In my case, one time, my wife forgot
>to unplug our conversion and just released the hand brake. The car
>rolled down the driveway and damage the inlet before she realized
>that.
Well, you could have your cord setup so that if the car rolls away,
it unplugs itself.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
does anyone know a way to source one at a reasonable price? Seems
like a great solution.
On Oct 4, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Andrew Roberts wrote:
The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major
thing
about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or
solectria or
siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically
smaller.
I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to
switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to
ask if
they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
two years
out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque
and a wide
power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of
the UQM
might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
motors available today.
What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
price for
the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
according to my
conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the
batteries
must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So,
$44k just
in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it
will say
much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to
order in
Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I
may just
have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or
two, but I
really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, they are very nice motors. I must say that it cannot beat power or
torque density of that "old tech" twin Warp 9" and Zilla 2k combination for
1/3 the price. However, the UQM has nice features, such as liquid cooling,
regen, hold on hills, parking brake, etc. And it is shiny too.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: October 4, 2006 12:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major thing
about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or solectria or
siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically smaller.
I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to ask if
they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle two years
out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque and a wide
power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of the UQM
might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
motors available today.
What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target price for
the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive according to my
conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the batteries
must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So, $44k just
in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it will say
much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to order in
Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I may just
have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or two, but I
really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And the 100KW is only 9" long! This would be great for a small car-
134HP/400ft pounds- more than enough.
http://www.uqm.com/products/specsheets/PowerPhase100.html
On Oct 4, 2006, at 1:31 PM, Don Cameron wrote:
Yes, they are very nice motors. I must say that it cannot beat
power or
torque density of that "old tech" twin Warp 9" and Zilla 2k
combination for
1/3 the price. However, the UQM has nice features, such as liquid
cooling,
regen, hold on hills, parking brake, etc. And it is shiny too.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: October 4, 2006 12:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major
thing
about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or
solectria or
siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically
smaller.
I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to
switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to
ask if
they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
two years
out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque
and a wide
power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of
the UQM
might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
motors available today.
What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
price for
the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
according to my
conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the
batteries
must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So,
$44k just
in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it
will say
much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to
order in
Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I
may just
have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or
two, but I
really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes I totally agree. There has always been inflated numbers for range from
most manufacturers. We won't know the real truth until there are a few out
there and real people report on them.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Better than a Xebra
Unless those batts are huge (as in a double pack) the specs are *way*
overrated, I'd think.
Maybe I should have titled this "The Chinese are coming". Check out the
specs and looks of this new three wheeler from China. They have a US
distributor already and a showroom in Los Angeles.. It looks very
interesting. Has anyone seen one in person yet or can someone in the area
stop by and check it out?
http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi, We have been contact with the islands of Nevis & St.Kitts for some time
now, for doing all there Govt, service vehivles to EVs, so far its only in the
talking stage but there, willing to have us buy 2 Rangers or S-10, convert them
and send them to the Islands, at their expence.
They also let me know that the few ajoining islands would be intrested to
see how they work and save on gas prices over power prices, Remember everything
there is run on diesel generators to power everything, and the last time we
were in St.,Kitts Gas was 9.45$ a gal. so when people cry about 3 $ a gal, I
tell them to go there rent a car LOL . So far they have asked us there to
do talks direct, and maybe we just might go. Its a great place. SO Hawaii isnt
the only place a EV will work, and be a great thing to have there. But,,being
a Govt. it might take a lot of time to go through.
Sharon & Wayne
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your best bet it to get a group purchase on one model of the motors. You
will probably have to get 10 people together to get the price reduced to a
reasonable amount.
BTW I am not sure if their web site advertises it, but there also is a UQM
PP 120 - 129kW 650Nm - should be interesting to see this motor in action.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 1:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
does anyone know a way to source one at a reasonable price? Seems like a
great solution.
On Oct 4, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Andrew Roberts wrote:
> The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major
> thing about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or
> solectria or
> siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically
> smaller.
> I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to
> switch.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>
>
> Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
> planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to ask
> if they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
> two years out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big
> torque and a wide power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so,
> the price of the UQM might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey
> compared to some of the motors available today.
>
> What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
> Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>
> I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
> price for the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
> according to my conversations with them is about $28K with controller,
> and the batteries must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit
> quantities. So, $44k just in batteries and drive and it will be sold
> for $1k more as a complete vehicle. If this can be delivered in a
> quality package in a year it will say much to how fast things are
> moving. The UQM drives are made to order in Colorado and I think the
> SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I may just have to forget my
> conversion and buy something new in a year or two, but I really don't
> want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
>
> Mark
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yeah, just buy 100 of them. LOL.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
does anyone know a way to source one at a reasonable price? Seems
like a great solution.
On Oct 4, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Andrew Roberts wrote:
> The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major
> thing
> about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or
> solectria or
> siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically
> smaller.
> I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to
> switch.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>
>
> Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
> planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to
> ask if
> they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
> two years
> out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque
> and a wide
> power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of
> the UQM
> might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
> motors available today.
>
> What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
> Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>
> I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
> price for
> the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
> according to my
> conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the
> batteries
> must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So,
> $44k just
> in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
> vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it
> will say
> much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to
> order in
> Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I
> may just
> have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or
> two, but I
> really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
>
> Mark
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really can't let this one go by without saying something. The Go 2000X
has actually been out for many months -- over a year I believe, and
apparently represents only a small improvement over a product I purchased
about 3 years ago with highly mediocre results.
I bought the Go 1500X after seeing the glitzy advertising and admiring its
sleek shape -- not much bigger than a regular unpowered board scooter,
very collapsible and portable, and very little external evidence that it's
powered at all. I also was drawn by its promises in the marketing
materials of the time, of "twin 750W motors" implying that the board
should have performance to match its appearance.
Oddly, when I made the purchase, I noticed that the boards were rather
hard to find. As a matter of fact, the few places selling them online were
only selling them as refurb units -- I took this as a warning, but jumped
anyway because this also meant the prices were about half retail. When it
arrived, the "refurb" condition was actually unnoticeable -- it arrived in
absolutely pristine, still-polished condition. I wonder if the refurb
label was some sort of excuse for the low liquidation price.
First of all, the "twin 750W motors" bit was a ruse, a play on words --
the two motors *together* were 750W, not that you could really tell by
riding it. A board this light with 1HP to push it should accelerate *MUCH*
faster than the Go Motorboard actually does. In fact, the Go will not even
start from a stop -- you have to push off, like with the cheap old Zappys.
The board is then fairly lazy to achieve its modest 15mph top speed.
Second, the 1500X had no suspension, and hard urethane wheels. Vibration
was pretty severe, and affected the hands as well as the feet. The
handlebar at its maximum extension was too low for me to ride comfortably,
and the hard, sharp-edged trigger is uncomfortable to hold for long
periods.
The throttle itself was a pretty tricky thing to operate. The scooter
regen-brakes, but it's dangerous to use regen for maximum braking, because
of how the control is designed. Instead of a separate control for regen,
regen activates automatically as you release the throttle. Release further
for more regen. Coasting happens when the throttle is released all the
way. This means that maximum braking is in a throttle position that is
difficult to distinguish from no braking at all. I crashed at least 3
times from the brakes suddenly letting go, before I gave up on using regen
and just used the simple friction brake on the back wheel.
If regen braking was hairy, acceleration was often even worse. The
manual's warning to "never ride in water" is accompanied by stickers on
the scooter itself screaming the same warning. They really mean it.
Actually, the warning doesn't go far enough -- what they mean is, "never
ride in any moderately damp conditions whatsoever. Do not allow the wheels
to become moistened." Here's why. That supposed 1HP of drive power is
coupled to the wheels via a friction drive. And not the hardcore "EV
Warrior" style bite-into-the-tire friction drive.
The hard urethane wheel is squeezed between the two motor output shafts,
which each have a smooth metal cylinder approximately the size of a pencil
eraser. The shafts thus spin against the side edges of the wheel,
resulting in a total contact patch approximately the size of a toenail
clipping. And if you get the sides of the wheel wet to any degree -- an
early morning ride accidentally brushing up on some dew-dampened grass was
all it took for me, you suddenly lose *ALL* traction, as the motors
instantly spin up to crazy-high speed. Within a fraction of a second, they
dig/melt little ruts in the wheel where the shafts are spinning like
crazy, and from then on your ride is punctuated by a clack-clack-clack as
the shafts pass by these ruts in the spinning wheel and cause a certain
shortening of the life of the motor bearings.
Why didn't they mold gear teeth into the sides of the wheel rim? Or use a
chain? Or *something* ??
The physical build quality of the scooter is fantastic. Absolutely as good
as they say it is. The main hinge is indeed a work of art, and the welds
in the beautifully formed and polished aluminum housing are flawless. The
design is beautiful, especially when the thing is new and the wheels are
still glossy. But it seems like they had a team of skilled engineers that
left halfway through the product development, and they finished the job
with college interns.
As far as I know, the only of these problems that the Go 2000X has solved
is the suspension; they've added a small set of springs to the front.
Perhaps they've altered the behavior of the regen braking as well, but I
doubt it. Based on my experience on the 1500X, there are way too many
flaws to recommend this poorly-considered, underpowered product to anyone.
As a comparison, I later purchased an Exkate X-24 powerboard, which also
claims to have a 1HP drive. The extreme difference in power is nothing
short of breathtaking.
--chris
On Wed, October 4, 2006 12:17 pm, bruce parmenter said:
> EVLN(The Electric Vehicle is a big tease)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/20060925/bs_prweb/prweb441513_1
> Go Motorboard Advanced Electic Vehicle Featured at Interbike
> Tradeshow in Las Vegas Mon Sep 25, 8:00 AM ET
>
> Las Vegas, NV (PRWEB) September 25, 2006 -- For the average
> consumer, the Electric Vehicle (EV) is a big tease. They promise
> low cost, enviro-friendly fueling, yet ironically, they are too
> expensive for most to buy.
>
> George Clooney drives a $100K EV Tango, and the highly publicized
> Segway electric scooter sells for $5,000 a pop. But, when in
> comes to owning an electric vehicle, it has been tough luck for
> the average consumer -- until now. Enter the Go Motorboard 2000X,
> the worlds most advanced, ultra lightweight -- and affordable --
> electric vehicle (EV). Go Sporting Goods Inc of Carlsbad,
> California has created the only electric scooter on the market
> weighing under 20 lbs., priced at $399, and designed for daily,
> urban, adult commuter use. The Motorboard will be featured in the
> New Products Pavilion at the http://www.interbike.com[Interbike
> tradeshow in Las Vegas, NV on September 27-29, 2006.
>
> With sky-high gas prices, global warming, and the politics of
> fossil fuels, it seems that electric vehicles would be looking
> increasingly seductive these days. However, they have largely
> remained the playthings of a few environmentalist Hollywood movie
> stars and Silicon Valley millionaires, folks better equipped to
> handle the hefty price tags and happy to pick up politically
> correct, exotic toys.
>
> The 2000X is powerful, fast, lightweight, portable, and virtually
> silent. This unique combination of features makes it ideal for
> urban transportation used alone or paired with mass transit
> systems. At 19 lbs., it is lightweight and easily foldable to
> carry and stow under subway seats, bus seats, under desks, or in
> car trunks. Its silent transmission makes it ideal for business
> and academic campuses, and has made it the vehicle of choice for
> the movie studio set and university students and hospital
> doctors. It travels up to 15 miles per hour, has a range of 5-7
> miles on a single, 90 minute charge, and rides on two polyether,
> no-flat, bullet proof, signature orange wheels. Go Motorboards
> has gained a cult following worldwide and has been distributed
> primarily online.
>
> ###
>
> GO SPORTING GOODS
> John Lynch
> 888-312-0926
> E-mail Information
> Trackback URL:
> http://prweb.com/pingpr.php/TG92ZS1aZXRhLVN1bW0tSG9yci1JbnNlLVplcm8=
> -
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
> __________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
