EV Digest 5968
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Brake lights on regen
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: interpoles
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Mechanical brush timing (Was: Re: series wound motor)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Brake lights on regen
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Power Designers May Soon Think Zinc
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: series wound motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC and DC together?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: New motor winding for eff info needed? Freedom EV update
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zilla controls backordered?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC and DC together?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) What is the torque/power rating of a TWIN Warp 9"
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What is the torque/power rating of a TWIN Warp 9"
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) VW for sale
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: useful links on EV costs, surplus equipment
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: What is the torque/power rating of a TWIN Warp 9" (or TWIN Warp 8s)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
There is also a setting in software to add a tiny bit of regen when
the brake pedal is applied, but it's set to such a tiny amount that I
didn't include it in the discussion.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Stock setting is that lifting the accel pedal will start
> a mild regen (to simulate a heavy motor drag) and the
> brake pedal will first increase the regen to max before
> engaging the friction brakes.
> This is also how the Toyota Prius does this.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Doug Weathers
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 8:15 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Brake lights on regen
>
>
>
> On Oct 4, 2006, at 5:14 AM, Mike Phillips wrote:
>
> > One of the projects that US Electricar didn't finish was having the
> > brake lights come on during regen. Regen on my truck is set to max and
> > it stops very quickly without the use of the brake pedal. So I'm
> > wondering if there is a circuit to be had that will allow them to be
> > activated on regen.
>
> A mercury switch? I've always thought it would be a good idea to have
> something like this that would warn drivers behind you when you
> decelerate for any reason (downshift, mechanical problem, running into
> a snowbank, etc).
>
> How is regen controlled in your vehicle? Does it require the brake
> pedal to be pressed, or does it kick in when you let up on the
> throttle, or ???
>
> > The S10 that I have uses a relay to drive the tail
> > lights. So that part is done.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Las Cruces, NM, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Sandman wrote:
it seems that interpoles are germane to understanding regen, yes?.
Not really. The theory of regen is exactly the same, regardless of
whether the motor has interpoles. Interpoles are just a minor detail
that make it work better in the real world.
> where can I find a better description of interpoles then this:
Any good engineering text on motors will cover them. But since we don't
make big motors in this country any more, you may have to look at older
books. The internet is too new; it is largely worthless for this. I find
the older, the better (i.e. the more nitty-gritty details they include :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Lee,
Do you mean a generator like Ebay Item 230023477406?
Yes, this is one.
Most alternators I see are around 50Amp but this
starter/generator is 30V 200A and rated for 3000-8000 RPM.
NOTE that making it useful as regen unit requires that you
downshift, or it will be hard to stay above 3000 RPM....
Many of these are combined starter/generators (have both series and
shunt fields). The description on this one makes it unclear if this is
the case or not.
The rpm range is for continuous duty at full output. At lower rpm, you
would have to exceed the max field current to keep the voltage over 30v.
You can do this briefly (less than a minute) which is why people could
get away with using them as a traction motor.
The voltage is proportional to rpm x field current. Full field current
will occur at minimum rpm (3000), so at 6000 rpm it would normally be
half field current to maintain 30v. They are so overbuilt that they work
at 72v and even 96v if the rpm and field current are high enough. So as
a motor, you can run full field current at 6000 rpm to get 60v
continuously; even more for a short time.
All the aircraft generators I've seen have interpoles. This eliminates
brush timing issues, and minimizes arcing even at higher voltages and
currents.
The downside of these units is that they are noisy, less efficient, and
require an external blower and a LOT of cooling. Also, what looks like a
shaft really isn't -- it's a loose splined stub that doesn't have any
side bearings (was meant to be supported by the engine). You have to
provide an external bearing.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Half weight is good and I'm trying to find what exactly is
compromised to achieve it - there must be something.
Else Siemens wouldn't need to make same power motors twice
as heavy.
My understanding is that UQM gets the higher power density by using more
expensive magnetic materials, very tight air gaps, and by packing the
windings extremely tightly (tighter than can normally be achieved).
There are also some "detailing" like hand-tuning. This is what makes
them very expensive and not suited to be mass produced.
A consequence of this style of construction is that reliability has been
lower; shorts due to inadequate insulation spacing or a pinched wire,
parts rubbing, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
Are brushless permanent magnet motors lighter by design?
No; they aren't intrinsically any lighter. You can *make* them lighter
of course, by optimizing the motor for weight instead of efficiency or
reliability.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don, where are you getting this max torque figure? Max torque is typically
defined by the current limitation of the motor and windings. From the warp
specs, I see that two warp 9's make 315 Nm. What am I missing here?? 1000
Nm is amazing if true, even for two motors.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 3:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Andrew, my note was referring to the "twin" warp 9 with Zilla 2k run. At
full voltage gives max torque 1000 Nm at total weight of 144kg = 3.47Nm/kg
UQM PP 120 with controller is 115kg with max torque 650Nm = 2.17Nm/kg
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: October 4, 2006 2:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
huh? the torque density of the warp 9 is 1.09 Nm/lb. the torque density of
the UQM motor is 2.9 Nm/lb (3.4 Nm/lb with the more powerful one). Thats
more than double! gotta get that price down though.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Yes, they are very nice motors. I must say that it cannot beat power or
torque density of that "old tech" twin Warp 9" and Zilla 2k combination for
1/3 the price. However, the UQM has nice features, such as liquid cooling,
regen, hold on hills, parking brake, etc. And it is shiny too.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Andrew Roberts
Sent: October 4, 2006 12:27 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major thing
about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or solectria or
siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically smaller.
I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to switch.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to ask if
they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle two years
out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque and a wide
power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of the UQM
might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
motors available today.
What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target price for
the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive according to my
conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the batteries
must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So, $44k just
in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it will say
much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to order in
Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I may just
have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or two, but I
really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Doug, Jeff, All
Hows NV. treating you Doug?
Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
On Oct 4, 2006, at 9:36 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I have a question about series motor timing. I can build a variable
> brush rigging that is servo controled or ...lots of methods, that is no
> problem, but is there a way to detect the condition of the armature
> reaction in real time.
Doug >> Could you use a motor with interpoles and avoid the whole brush timing
>issue? Although I have one of Jim Husted's slick adjustable brush
>rings, I wish I had a motor with interpoles. The Kostov 9in motor was
>about equivalent to an ADC 8incher as far as power goes, and it had
>interpoles.
Doug >> I wonder if Jim would be able to enhance a Kostov to eliminate the
weak
>comm issue? Jim, have you ever seen a Kostov motor? I understand that
>Randy at Canadian EV had a shelf full of Kostovs with exploded comms
>and no warranty support from Russia.
Funny you should ask this. Randy had wrote me asking some questions about
getting an ADC rear bearing off, and followed asking If I'm interested in some
Kostov's just yesterday. No armatures though. Actually FT brought me down two
9" Kostovs. The fields are cloth wrapped (only class "F" insulation) which
could be rewrapped with fiberglass. The comms are another thing. They put
almost no material into the comm (I mean you could almost shave with those bars
they are so thin) so I'm pretty sure you are glad you do not have one Doug 8^ P
Let me put it this way, I doubt you could get more than one turn and cut, if
that! An ADC8 armature actually fits pretty well into a Kostov9 but the
laminations are about an inch longer on the armarure. The brush holders would
actually fit also 8^)
Like everyone else though, I have to weigh my resources, and pick my battles,
so this is a future project for the time being. You could also rewind it with
a new comm, but one would have to be searched out and then there are extra
costs of comm and winding.
On a side note here: Wayland insisted I install an ABR on the big 13" Yellow
beast which is interpoled. I'll be doing a twin to it for FT sometime in the
future and I asked him if I could leave the holders static, having heard about
them being self adjusting here on the list, which he replied he also would
want them to be adjustable. So it does make me wonder why these EV pioneers
are so adament about an interpoled motor having an ABR installed. Data, data,
data! With half of my motors still not yet running I do find myself frustrated
with the lack of info I can get so far. Hell even the ones running have issues
like no working E-meters, LMAO!
Jeff> So far I have heard about sensor brushes
> My best, first, idea is to use rpm and amps into a lookup table to
> determine angle.
Jeff, get it made and just start logging data. I do not think it "has" to be
rocket science here. You know that it should start in nuetral and go to 10 to
13 degrees max, unless your Marko, hehe.
Doug> How about using a Hall effect sensor to determine the armature field
>strength at a particular point relative to the casing? Calculate or
>look up what the flux should be at a given throttle position, then
>compare to the actual value and adjust the brushes.
>You could use instantaneous RPMs versus throttle position to determine
>that you've just stomped on the throttle and a big fat pulse of amps is
>headed to the motor, so you want to overcorrect.
>My low-tech idea is to hook the end of the throttle cable to the brush
>ring, after it's gone past the pot box. Step on the throttle, and you
>are also pushing the brush ring to advance the timing. If desired, use
>a lever to multiply your mechanical advantage (perhaps the pot box arm
>itself?), and/or a cam to vary the amount of advance per inch of
>throttle cable (small at first, increasing as you reach WOT).
>Hopefully you will at least be able to do better than a static advance
>setting, and the engineering should be easy and cheap.
>The nice part of this idea is you don't have to deal with servo lag.
>The bad part is you might have difficulty achieving optimal brush
>angle. (I'm of the opinion that it will be equally difficult to figure
>out the correct brush angle even with a computer in the circuit, at
>least until you've completely characterized your drive system.)
Actually Doug this is a good idea. I think you guys might be overthinking
this a bit most of the time.
Marko's ADC9 that I went through has an ABR and he's run a throttle cable
into the cab so he can adjust it manually. Not sure if you caught my last post
on it but he had it set to something like 18 to 20 dergrees! I yelled at him
cause I saw some signs of electrical overload (shadowy, brush looking mark on
half of each comm bar), but he said it just loves it on the freeway. He
admitted it was a bit more gutless on takeoff though His Emeter is broken so I
have no idea what his amps are, but Marko's a pretty long time EV'er and does
know what he' doing. Last I looked he had it turned back down to around 16
degrees and the comm looked really good, this is still over what the racers are
setting it at. Simply being able to set it for nuetral when taking off and
adjusting to 10 to 13 degrees would be all you guys would need to do. Maybe
setting it up to go to a retarded position and trying regen would also be some
good data to get, see if it helps at all with that pesky
series motor arcing issues.
>The friction of the brushes on the armature applies torque to the brush
>assembly. If you use this scheme, you'll probably want to arrange
>things so that this torque acts to push on the throttle cable, not pull
>on it. Now the brush ring acts like an extra throttle return spring.
>This is how it would work on my 8in ADC in my Karmann Ghia, if I'm
>visualizing everything correctly.
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
All in all, I was pleased by the fact that just the friction in the throttle
cable is enough to hold the brush ring in position, which was something I was a
bit concerned about 8^ ) All in all the reason I like the ABR is that if you
look, there are a lot of opionions as to where the timing should be. The
problem is what works for one may not work the same for another. EVeryone's
running different voltages, loads, rpm's, and current draws, but using the same
basic settings. Being able to tailor you motor for your need has got to be a
plus. For Marko it seems power output on the high end is what "he's" looking
for. For others it might be adjusting it for the lowest current.
Well that's about all the time I have today, hope this helps.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 5, 2006, at 7:10 AM, Mike Phillips wrote:
The regen is tied to throttle position. So I can regulate the regen by
how far I let off the pedal. The throttle/regen curve is controlled in
the software settings.
I thought about a circuit that closes a relay when the throttle
position is at the right position, but it would trigger every time the
throttle went through that position, whether you were regenning or not.
Is there a dashboard indicator that tells you that regen is operating?
Can you tap off of that to drive a relay?
Maybe a mercury switch installed at just the right inclination would
work.
Another idea. Put a diode on a battery, such that it conducts when the
current is flowing INTO the battery. Hook it to a relay (for
isolation) and use that to trigger the brake lights.
This means the relay will come on if the charger is plugged in. You
might want to add another relay to prevent that.
If you want to avoid draining a single battery, tap the whole pack with
a high-voltage diode, then use resistors to lower the voltage (or use a
relay with a high voltage coil).
Disclaimer: I'm not an EE and I don't know if this will be safe or
even work at all.
Mike
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee, air gaps are nearly double that of the induction machines. This is one
of the advantages of PM machines because they can tolerate more impulse
loading from diesel motors and such without making contact with the stator.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 7:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Half weight is good and I'm trying to find what exactly is
> compromised to achieve it - there must be something.
> Else Siemens wouldn't need to make same power motors twice
> as heavy.
My understanding is that UQM gets the higher power density by using more
expensive magnetic materials, very tight air gaps, and by packing the
windings extremely tightly (tighter than can normally be achieved).
There are also some "detailing" like hand-tuning. This is what makes
them very expensive and not suited to be mass produced.
A consequence of this style of construction is that reliability has been
lower; shorts due to inadequate insulation spacing or a pinched wire,
parts rubbing, etc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
[Electrovair] Impressive voltage, range, and decent top speed. Even
used an AC motor. All back in 1966!
It's more amazing than that. The Electrovair was the same size, same
weight, same top speed, same range, same oil-cooled 3-phase AC induction
motor, same 100kw 3-phase inverter, same transmissionsless 13,000 rpm
motor setup, and same high voltage battery pack as the highly touted GM EV1!
Specs on what controlled the motor would be interesting. Shame about
the 0-60 speed though. Must have been an inverter limitation (or
batteries or tires (trans)? Did it use tubes?
The 0-60 mph time was an artificial limit set by the inverter control
logic. Their goal was to exactly duplicate the performance of the stock
Corvair.
The inverter was built with SCRs, the standard power semiconductor of
the time -- no tubes. They are rugged and efficient, and still used
today for really big stuff. They turn on easily, but require extra
commutation circuitry to turn off. Each SCR in the Electrovair had two
more SCRs and a big capacitor and inductor to turn it off. Also, SCRs
switch much slower than MOSFETs or IGBTs, so the switching frequency is
audible. It growls, whistles, and sings to you. :-)
An Electrovair is in the Corvair Society of Americal National Museum in
Roanoke VA.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I can build a variable brush rigging that is servo controlled...
is there a way to detect the condition of the armature reaction
in real time? So far I have heard about sensor brushes.
My best, first, idea is to use rpm and amps into a lookup table
to determine angle.
This only works after you have correctly filled in the lookup table.
Where will you get the data to do that?
Sensor brushes are the straightforward way to do it. If you want to get
tricky, try putting an optical sensor in there to watch the brush
arcing, and have the system find the optimum position for each
voltage/current combination experimentally.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It was posted before if you want regeneration with a DC motor to just
add a generator. How about if you had a TransWarP 11 and added a
Siemens or UQM as a second motor that would provide regeneration
and a second motor.
I think this is a viable strategy. The AC drive could be considerably
smaller, and sized for the average power needed. The DC drive could be a
big brute force monster for fast accelleration and hill climbing. It
could even use a rather crude contactor controller, since the AC drive
can be used to provide the smooth speed control between steps.
On issue might be that brushes will wear faster if you run too low a
current (like, if the DC motor spent most of its time just
freewheeling). You may want to run some current to the DC motor just to
improve brush life.
I have a couple big 15hp Westinghouse 240vac / 240vdc motor generators
that I've thought would be great for trying this idea out.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
Jerry -
This is a design decision that cannot be best made by asking for the
opinions of people who don't know the particulars of the vehicle
involved. Some may say "range" and some may say "performance" but
those answers won't help you at all.
Jerry, I agree completely with Phil. This is not a topic for an opinion
survey; it should be made for sound engineering reasons, based on the facts.
The best plan would be to put together a model (a spreadsheet, for
example) of the car - that includes weight, tire drag, air drag,
battery and controller characteristics, etc. Then, try several
different motor windings in the model (and different gear ratios)
and see what happens as far as performance, required motor current,
power consumption at a range of speeds, and so forth.
That's where I'd start, too. The challenge is that you don't have real
data for most of these numbers, so you'd have to guess. This makes the
model a patchwork of guesses, and so not very accurate. But, it's better
than the guesses of uninformed strangers!
The spreadsheet model will give you a range of possible ratios that
could produce acceptable performance. I'd get 2 or 3 sets of belts and
sprockets so you can try them on the real car.
If you're ordering a custom motor, I'd also suggest having them provide
a tap on the field coils. Or if cheaper, order two different sets of
field coils, or even two different motors.
You'll need those extra parts later. You're going to run into the same
situation the old CitiCars did -- they built them in Florida which is
flat as a pancake. But they sold them to people in hilly or even
mountainous areas. The motors overheated and burned out. So, you want to
have a motor and/or sprockets on the shelf for that customer, too.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Why not an alternator on the tailshaft of an ADC type series motor.
It could freewheel until it was electrically kicked in? Technically
possible. Practical? I don't know.
Sure, that would work too. It would be cheap and easy. But auto
alternators have low efficiency, and are wound for low voltages and high
rpm. You'd want to rewind it for your pack voltage, and/or belt or gear
drive it to spin a lot faster to get enough voltage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor, UQM does not sell any induction machines. As for your other
questions, I couldn't find a way to respond without sounding like a paid
advertiser. We can discuss offline.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
Sorry, I was asking about UQM induction motors, not PM synchronous.
Of course we want apples to apples comparison.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
> Are brushless permanent magnet motors lighter by design?
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: October 4, 2006 3:20 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>
> Andrew,
>
> How do UQM motors compare to MES' power density wise?
>
> Both do not have much metal around and rely on the liquid cooling only -
> unlike Siemens no thermal mass allowing extended run time before
> overheating.
>
> Half weight is good and I'm trying to find what exactly is compromised to
> achieve it - there must be something.
> Else Siemens wouldn't need to make same power motors twice as heavy.
>
> I bet UQM (as well as MES) motors are much noisier than Siemens, precisely
> because not much metal [sound shielding] around.
>
> What else? (question to the engineer, not to marketing dept).
>
> Victor
>
>
> Andrew Roberts wrote:
>
>>The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major
>>thing about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or
>>solectria or
>>siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically
>
> smaller.
>
>>I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to
>
> switch.
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Behalf Of Don Cameron
>>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
>>To: [email protected]
>>Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>>
>>
>>Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
>>planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to ask
>>if they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
>>two years out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big
>>torque and a wide power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so,
>>the price of the UQM might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey
>>compared to some of the motors available today.
>>
>>What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
>>
>>
>>
>>Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>>
>>see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>On Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
>>Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
>>To: [email protected]
>>Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>>
>>I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
>>price for the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
>>according to my conversations with them is about $28K with controller,
>>and the batteries must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit
>>quantities. So, $44k just in batteries and drive and it will be sold
>>for $1k more as a complete vehicle. If this can be delivered in a
>>quality package in a year it will say much to how fast things are
>>moving. The UQM drives are made to order in Colorado and I think the
>>SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I may just have to forget my
>>conversion and buy something new in a year or two, but I really don't want
>
> an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
>
>>Mark
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
UQM does not sell through KTA.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of torich1
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 3:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
They say you can buy their product at http://www.kta-ev.com BUT! KTA makes
no mention of this product in their catalog....
Rich Va
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Roberts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:08 PM
Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
> yeah, just buy 100 of them. LOL.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
> Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 2:33 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
>
>
> does anyone know a way to source one at a reasonable price? Seems
> like a great solution.
> On Oct 4, 2006, at 12:27 PM, Andrew Roberts wrote:
>
> > The batteries are from www.altairnano.com, and you forgot one major
> > thing
> > about the UQM motors: they weigh half as much as the Enova (or
> > solectria or
> > siemens) systems at the same power level. They're also physically
> > smaller.
> > I know that was one of the driving factors in Phoenix's decision to
> > switch.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Don Cameron
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 12:22 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
> >
> >
> > Hi Mark, Phoenix has been around for a while and a few years back was
> > planning on using motor/controllers from Enova. You might want to
> > ask if
> > they have delivered any vehicles yet before counting on a vehicle
> > two years
> > out. The UQM motors are very interesting as they have big torque
> > and a wide
> > power band. I know that in quantities of 10 or so, the price of
> > the UQM
> > might drop to about half. Still pretty pricey compared to some of the
> > motors available today.
> >
> > What batteries and how many are they planning on using?
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
> > Sent: October 4, 2006 11:05 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Phoenix motors/UQM Drive
> >
> > I spoke to an executive at Phoenix Motor Cars who said the target
> > price for
> > the SUV with 150-200 mile range would be $45K. The UQM drive
> > according to my
> > conversations with them is about $28K with controller, and the
> > batteries
> > must be at least $15K, all purchased in one unit quantities. So,
> > $44k just
> > in batteries and drive and it will be sold for $1k more as a complete
> > vehicle. If this can be delivered in a quality package in a year it
> > will say
> > much to how fast things are moving. The UQM drives are made to
> > order in
> > Colorado and I think the SUV comes from Korea but not positive. I
> > may just
> > have to forget my conversion and buy something new in a year or
> > two, but I
> > really don't want an SUV! Perhaps the R1 will be available?
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.407 / Virus Database: 268.12.12/462 - Release Date: 10/3/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andrew Roberts wrote:
Lee, air gaps are nearly double that of the induction machines.
This is one of the advantages of PM machines because they can
tolerate more impulse loading from diesel motors and such without
making contact with the stator.
PM motors *can* have larger air gaps, because the magnets lose less
field strength from the gap than a wound field. But I was told that the
UQM motors actually used smaller air gaps anyway, because there was
still a slight efficiency advantage to doing so.
I haven't used UQM motors myself; this is just hearsay information from
the solar car teams that have used them. Maybe someone who has first
hand experience would care to provide data?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
But why not just use a big AC motor instead??
Such as the Azure AC55, a 13.5" 177 ft-lbs
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
It was posted before if you want regeneration with a DC motor to just
add a generator. How about if you had a TransWarP 11 and added a
Siemens or UQM as a second motor that would provide regeneration
and a second motor.
I think this is a viable strategy. The AC drive could be considerably
smaller, and sized for the average power needed. The DC drive could be a
big brute force monster for fast accelleration and hill climbing. It
could even use a rather crude contactor controller, since the AC drive
can be used to provide the smooth speed control between steps.
On issue might be that brushes will wear faster if you run too low a
current (like, if the DC motor spent most of its time just
freewheeling). You may want to run some current to the DC motor just to
improve brush life.
I have a couple big 15hp Westinghouse 240vac / 240vdc motor generators
that I've thought would be great for trying this idea out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the max torque and power rating of a TWIN Warp 9" using a Zilla 2k
- Like John's or Otmar's?
Seems I might have my figures a bit mixed up.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Don
Lets see if Matt Graham will chime in here. Both Wayland and Ot are using
ADC8's not Warp9's.
Cya
Jim
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is the max torque and power rating of a TWIN Warp 9" using a Zilla 2k
- Like John's or Otmar's?
Seems I might have my figures a bit mixed up.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I just put up some pictures of John's VW on www.TEVA2.com, clik 'for sale' in
the sidebar on the left.
It really is a nice little conversion...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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--- Begin Message ---
I put a 40C machanical thermostat inside the fan grill of the PFC-20.
The thermostat is physically touching the big inductor in the charger
but attached to the grill only. I then wire the original connectors
to this thermostat. So, the vent fans only turn on when the charger
is warm.
Afterwards, I added another 35C thermostat in parallel with this and
put it under the seat. This way if the temperature is above 35C under
the seat the vent fans would run. It was nice to know that when the
fans turn off, the batteries are cool. I tried a 30C thermostat but
it would not turn off in the summer time.
These thermostats make the Sparrow sort of "alive" because the fans
would turn on and off by themselves. The Sparrow becomes a little
smarter than before ;-)
But, now, the GAIA I system is controlling the vent fans and turn them
on and off. Also, the system turns off the charger completely when
not needed. No more constant blue LED and constant charger fan
blowing indefinitely.
On 10/4/06, Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
So what did you do about the battery box fans? With the Zivan charger,
they only run while the charger is charging. Do you just strap them so
that they run while the car is plugged in?
Thanks,
Jake
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Ang
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 11:29 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: PFC-30 no-drive-away interlock
Jake,
On the EV's I upgraded to use the PFC series chargers, I simply
replaced the AC interlock relay with a 12V relay. On the Sparrow, it
is a direct drop-in replacement. I then use a 12V universal input
switching power supply to power the relay.
On 10/2/06, Jake Oshins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So how do people usually wire up a PFC-30 so that you can't drive away
> while it's charging?
>
>
>
> Can I use the +5V from the Regbus to trigger a relay? If so, how much
> power can I safely draw from it? Will the regs pull that line high
even
> when I'm not charging?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jake Oshins
>
>
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDLposts" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 7:06 AM
Subject: useful links on EV costs, surplus equipment
> I do, however, have information that could prove helpful to someone. The
> links are in the “technical” section of the table on my EV page,
> http://www.davesevs.com/electriccar.htm
>
> The first item is a nauseatingly detailed table of expenses, with vendor
> listings. Here’s the direct link.
> http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/Cost%20Table.htm
>
> The second is this same data in a pie chart broken down by category (such as
> EV components, donor vehicle, tools, etc.). The categories are listed on
> both the chart and the table. Here’s the direct link.
> http://www.davesevs.com/squirrel/cost%20graph.jpg
> David Brandt
I find it odd that you included the cost of tools, as if the tools were an
integral part of the EV such as the batteries, wire, charger, etc.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Warp 8s will do...
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: October 5, 2006 8:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: What is the torque/power rating of a TWIN Warp 9"
Hey Don
Lets see if Matt Graham will chime in here. Both Wayland and Ot are using
ADC8's not Warp9's.
Cya
Jim
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What is the max torque and power rating of a TWIN Warp 9" using a Zilla 2k
- Like John's or Otmar's?
Seems I might have my figures a bit mixed up.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
