EV Digest 5979
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Truck tailgate up vs down, Was=> Re: Ranger doner
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) DCP's DCDC --> Vicor. Takers?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Slashdot: Electric Vehicle Kits for the Masses?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2
by "Kip C Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Saft NiCd supplier
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Poulsen wrote:
You don't really explain your desire for a new AC controller design.
I think it's fairly obvious. He wants a source for Ac motor controllers
that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But it's a challenging project! Most
of the people who have "toughed through" it realize that they spend a
lot of time and money on it. They understandably don't want to just give
it all away for nothing.
Plus, building a full-blown AC motor controller is more like building a
house than a birdhouse. It takes a lot of skill, special tools, time,
and money. The average Joe that wants plans for free off the internet
will never follow through and build it (but will nevertheless bug the
author to death for free advice! :-)
The closest thing to what you want are the plans in the Motor Control
Handbook by Richard Valentine. Buy the book, get the plans, build the
controller.
Jack Murray wrote:
How about one that will drive any AC motor?
This is possible; just harder. You have to write extra software to allow
the user to "tune" the drive, and depend on the user having all the
necessary measurement capabilities and knowledge to know what he wants
it to do without breaking something.
Or, you have to write even more software to have the inverter "learn"
the characteristics of the motor, and adapt itself to them. And you have
to test this software with a large enough range of motors so you know it
actually works.
Are there any common, viable, off the shelf air cooled AC motors that
would be suitable for EV use?
Sure! Any standard off-the-shelf 3-phase 60hz motor of suitable HP could
be used in an EV. It will be sub-optimal than a custom-designed motor.
Limitations would be:
- the wrong voltage (a 240vac motor would need a 360vdc pack)
- not built for automotive use (insufficient cooling or protection
from rain, dirt, etc.)
- not balanced for higher than nameplate rpm (limited to ~3600 rpm)
- not as efficient (since 99% of motor buyers ignore efficiency)
- is built for sinewaves, not squarewave inverter use (needs extra
insulation, better laminations, higher temp rating, etc.)
Thus, a regular 60hz motor would be bigger, heavier, less efficient, and
not as reliable as a purpose-built motor. It still could be adequate if
you were willing to accept these limitations.
You know, all you need to do is prototype the first one then contract
it out to an assembly shop and start selling inverters...
Sounds easy, doesn't it! :-) But for contract assembly to work, the
design has to be so bulletproof that even the Three Stooges could build
it correctly. It takes many trials (and errors!), with lots of scrap
samples that "almost work" along the way.
Can a 3 phase inverter be built to drive any AC motor and not require
any software in it?
Yes. We've had inverters for AC motors for at least 40 years now, and
until recently, none of them had micros or software.
Does someone here have the skills to design the inverter's circuit
board and component layout? Does another have the skills to write
the drive software for it? All we need is something to get started
with and then we can fine tune/tweak/improve it.
I'm sure lots of people could do this. The challenge is to provide them
with an *incentive* to do it! Maybe set up a "Tesla Prize" with some
cash award for the best open source AC motor controller that meets your
criteria. Must achieve a certain performance with a certain motor and
certain battery pack voltage. Must provide the parts lists, schematics,
PCB layouts, software listings. Winning design will be published, with
credit to the author. That sort of thing.
Rewrite the book on 3 phase inverter motor speed controllers. Must
it REALLY be the hardware equivalent of 3 DC motor controllers?
No, of course not. There are plenty of single-phase and 2-phase
inverters. It's just that for higher power more phases are better,
3-phase works well. Large DC motor commutators are actually polyphase
inverters, with many more than 3 phases (their switches are so cheap
that they don't need to limit them to only six).
Chop it, pulse it, route it? Why 3 separate controllers in one?
Why can't one drive all three phases?
You can. One viable strategy is to use a simple DC/DC converter (like a
normal DC motor controller) to produce variable-voltage DC, then use a
simple DC-to-AC inverter to convert this to AC. Toyota uses this
approach in the Prius -- their DC/DC boosts the pack voltage, so they
can use a higher-voltage AC motor with a lower-voltage pack.
How did GM do it in '66?
Almost exactly the same as the GM EV1! 3-phase AC inverter, only built
with SCRs instead of IGBTs. The physical size and weight of the
inverters was even the same. But that 1966 inverter was a NASA-grade
cost-is-no-object piece of workmanship and perfection. The EV1 inverter
used off-the-shelf parts and was probably 1/10th the cost.
Maybe someone in China for example has the skills and would be willing
to design an inverter for a nominal fee? I'd put in some money if it
was assured of being designed.
I have the feeling that "American" means "fool with money" in Chinese.
:-) There are of course skilled honest businessmen in China; but you are
more likely to be preyed upon by the crooks because you can't tell the
difference (until too late). You need to get to know the person,
establish relationships, build up mutual trust. That takes time (and money).
Maybe old school it sans printed circuit board.
The high-power stuff isn't on PC boards; it's big chassis-mount parts,
connected with buss bars or equivalent.
we need is the crudest, simplest AC motor speed controller to get
the ball rolling. Anyone?
You'd wind up with a brushed DC motor :-)
Seriously, I think the best option for what you want is to start with a
mass-produced industrial inverter, meant to be powered by 240vac (which
it immediately rectifies into ~360vdc) and which is meant to drive
generic industrial 3-phase motors. They have already gotten the
production volumes up (and so the price down), worked out the design
bugs, perfected the self-tuning software, etc. All that's wrong is that
is for motors of about 1/10th the desired horsepower.
Then replace its power stage with your own bigger power stage. This will
be big chassis mount IGBT modules, buss bar wiring, etc. which is much
more suitable for home construction. "Lie" to the drive about the actual
motor voltage and current (for example, the drive sees 10 amps when the
actual current is 100 amps).
How about for starters, just make an inverter to drive a single phase
motor? Is there a big single phase motor that would be good enough to
power an EV? (three phase can come later if single will work for now)
Here too, you'll observe that cheap simple AC inverters are available,
but they are terrible at driving motors. You need a much more expensive,
much better inverter to drive motors successfully.
What are the various ways to control the rpm of an AC motor?
Voltage? Current? Frequency?
Lots of them, actually. The cheapest is just voltage control (like a
light dimmer for a ceiling fan, or tapped windings like a furnace blower
motor).
The best (but most complex) method is combined voltage and frequency
control. This is what all the EV AC drives are doing. There are endless
subtle variations.
Other alternatives exist. Everything that works for DC motors works for
AC too. You can restrict motor speed range and use a transmission (it's
already there in an EV conversion, after all). You can use consequent
poles or multi-pole windings to change speeds in steps (2/4/6/8 pole).
Wound rotor AC motors (the equivalent of sepex DC motors) can vary speed
via slip power recovery.
Can for example, a 5hp air cooled AC motor be rewound for ANY
voltage/frequency?
Certainly almost any sane voltage. I've rewound 120vac motors for
0.6vac, for example, and they work exactly the same; same speed, same
efficiency; it just draws 200 times the current.
Changing frequency changes speed. The bearings, laminations, rotor
balancing, etc. are all affected if you go up in speed. A normal 60hz
3450 rpm rotor might not hold together at 120hz 6900rpm, the bearings
will last half as long, and the laminations will produce about twice the
heat.
Are there any "simple" inverter systems on any of these new AC
forklifts and can anything be learned from those or are they typical
"black box" OEM type setups? How much for an AC motor/inverter off
one of these lifts?
I don't know. Maybe someone in the forklift business can tell us.
If DC EV motors came from forklifts, where will the AC motors come
from and what are they currently being used in?
Not many applications yet; that's one reason they are so rare and
expensive! If/when they find some big customers (maybe forklifts), then
AC motors/controllers will come down in price and go up in availability.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See insert below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> I guess it would depend on what you mean by the cost still being high.
>
> I still have to figure out what the application would be.
>
> Which battery would I use to run my Porsche 914?
> How do I calculate how many I would need, at what amp?
> Are there any special considerations with these types of batteries over
> lead?
> (It says it can use a standard charger, so I don't know)
>
> I just got my books, so I'll be reading up on this stuff, but if these
> batteries will get me greater range/performance AND last longer, and are
> maintenance free (no watering) I'd be willing to pay up to 3X the cost of
> lead.
>
> Is that not high enough?
> Mike
It would be about 40X times to be equal to my lead.
Also, I got a bid on supercapacitors from esma-cap.com for 40X times which
would be 1/2 the range of my lead.
Roland
>
> > Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
> > Hello Mike
>
> > I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
> > batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
> buy going the
> > prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
> there
> > for the money.
>
> > Don
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, in some States if you have the tailgate down that extends beyond the
bumber with out a flag warning to the driver behind you, it could cost you.
Ever try to get out of a parking spot with a tail gate down?
One guy hit my car with a extension unit sticking out beyond the bumper
while backing up. It cost him $2600.00.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: Truck tailgate up vs down, Was=> Re: Ranger doner
> > Two different drivers in two different trucks, same make and model
> > though. One road test was not very scientific. The should have repeated
> > the test several times. Switching drivers and switching which truck had
> > the tailgate up or down. I have not statistical experience but I don't
> > think that one data point is enough to form more than a
> guess--certainly
> > not a conclusion.
> >
>
> The Canadian wind tunnel testing previously mentioned was as
> scientific as any other, demonstrating an example of how wind vector
> variables can cause poor consistency of results.
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A fellow EVer just told me about the Vicor chip. 600
watts beats the 350 I pull from my DCP.
The point? Seems to me that the Vicor unit needs a
housing, a fuse, and perhaps a switch, depending on
whether one leaves in perpetually on, or switched off
per ignition switch.
Similarly, I like my DCP DCDC because it has a +/- 12V
line for the E-meter.
Is there a market for someone to take the Vicor, take
the chip that runs our e-meters, put them on a board,
stick it in a case with applicable LEDs fuses, etc.
and get it on the market for around $469?
If someone wants to design the board and point me to a
heatsink that would work well for the model, I'd be
interested in soldering it up, and sticking it in a
box for sale.
I've also got the time over the summer to dedicate to
the cause...
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike
It depends on what range you require from your EV and what motor you have
decided on.
I have only looked at AC systems and been driving them for several years so
my understanding of DC systems is in the learning process.
With Valence batteries they weigh a lot less than lead acid so you get
better performance and longer range. It does come at a price though. This is
just
a grab out of the air figure . If you spent $2000 dollars in AGM 20 x $100 of
100 ah batteries for your vehicle you would have to spend around 24,000 to
have the same Ah rating. However it would not be the same vehicle it would
have more range be faster handle better and stop quicker. You could drop the
24,000 price down more if you built it to equal the performance of the lead
acid
batteries. Then all you would gain is in the long run they would cost less
because they have thousands of cycles verses lead acids hundreds of cycles.
Also notice the Valance is rated at the C-5 most lead acid is rated at C-20
both of these are lower than real EV use of C-1. I have only looked at the
Valence for AC systems. Others could tell you if this is even an option for DC
motors.
If you consider the life time use the Valence batteries will provide you it
is actually less then lead it is just if one is willing to pay all the money
up front and receive the benefits of having less weight.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 10:24:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I guess it would depend on what you mean by the cost still being high.
I still have to figure out what the application would be.
Which battery would I use to run my Porsche 914?
How do I calculate how many I would need, at what amp?
Are there any special considerations with these types of batteries over
lead?
(It says it can use a standard charger, so I don't know)
I just got my books, so I'll be reading up on this stuff, but if these
batteries will get me greater range/performance AND last longer, and are
maintenance free (no watering) I'd be willing to pay up to 3X the cost of
lead.
Is that not high enough?
Mike
> Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> Hello Mike
> I have been talking to Marc at Valence for a long time about their
> batteries. They are all set up for an EV if we could get a serious group
buy going the
> prices would still be high but I believe better than anything else out
there
> for the money.
> Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
40X?!?! Even with a large group purchase? What the heck would it be if you
just bought the outright as an individual?
So you're saying that for me to buy the equivalent of about $1200 of lead
batteries, it would cost $48,000? Those 12v are over $2,000 a piece? At a
group discount?
I might as well pony up the extra money and buy a Tesla.
Grr... At this rate EVs will never take off.
More frustration and disappointment :(
[clipped] ... I'd be willing to pay up to 3X the cost of
> lead.
>
> Is that not high enough?
> Mike
It would be about 40X times to be equal to my lead.
Also, I got a bid on supercapacitors from esma-cap.com for 40X times which
would be 1/2 the range of my lead.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Eric Poulsen wrote:
> > You don't really explain your desire for a new AC controller design.
>
> I think it's fairly obvious. He wants a source for Ac motor
> controllers that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
I take Eric's question to be 'what are the attributes that are desired
in this new AC controller, that are not provided by present DC
controllers, or which attributes of existing AC controllers (if any) are
you willing to forego in this new design to reduce cost?'
For instance, there are simpler ways to control an AC motor than
software implementing field oriented control (FOC), however, this
approach may result in the most efficient and precise control. If one
is not concerned with the absolute maximum efficiency, it might be
possible to implement a simpler control strategy (e.g.
frequency/voltage) without any software at all.
So, what are the attributes of an AC drivetrain that are absolutely
essential to justify its use over the lower cost DC alternative? Regen
and/or wider speed range are the obvious ones, though the wider speed
range is really only possible with more expensive AC motors basically
purpose built for EV use since the common [inexpensive] 60Hz induction
machines are typically going to be limited to a similar or narrower
speed range than our series DC motors.
Knowing what features the simplified/cheaper inverter must
preserve/provide could help identify/narrow the field of possible
solutions to the problem.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for that explanation, $24,000 is better than $48,000, however still
too high.
How much would it cost to bring the valence batteries inline with
performance and range of lead, and how would that be achieved? Fewer
batteries? Lower amp battery (I noticed they have several versions with
different amps).
I'm not sure what the C ratings mean, I'm still learning.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It depends on what range you require from your EV and what motor you have
decided on.
I have only looked at AC systems and been driving them for several years so
my understanding of DC systems is in the learning process.
With Valence batteries they weigh a lot less than lead acid so you get
better performance and longer range. It does come at a price though. This
is just
a grab out of the air figure . If you spent $2000 dollars in AGM 20 x $100
of
100 ah batteries for your vehicle you would have to spend around 24,000 to
have the same Ah rating. However it would not be the same vehicle it would
have more range be faster handle better and stop quicker. You could drop
the
24,000 price down more if you built it to equal the performance of the lead
acid
batteries. Then all you would gain is in the long run they would cost less
because they have thousands of cycles verses lead acids hundreds of cycles.
Also notice the Valance is rated at the C-5 most lead acid is rated at C-20
both of these are lower than real EV use of C-1. I have only looked at the
Valence for AC systems. Others could tell you if this is even an option for
DC
motors.
If you consider the life time use the Valence batteries will provide you it
is actually less then lead it is just if one is willing to pay all the money
up front and receive the benefits of having less weight.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The C rating is how long (hours) the battery will last. If taken faster then
the rated C rating the battery will provide much less.
You need to study Ah ratings and compare. A 100 Ah battery at the C20 rate
may only be 60 or less of Ah at the 1 C rate.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 11:21:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thanks for that explanation, $24,000 is better than $48,000, however still
too high.
How much would it cost to bring the valence batteries inline with
performance and range of lead, and how would that be achieved? Fewer
batteries? Lower amp battery (I noticed they have several versions with
different amps).
I'm not sure what the C ratings mean, I'm still learning.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It depends on what range you require from your EV and what motor you have
decided on.
I have only looked at AC systems and been driving them for several years so
my understanding of DC systems is in the learning process.
With Valence batteries they weigh a lot less than lead acid so you get
better performance and longer range. It does come at a price though. This
is just
a grab out of the air figure . If you spent $2000 dollars in AGM 20 x $100
of
100 ah batteries for your vehicle you would have to spend around 24,000 to
have the same Ah rating. However it would not be the same vehicle it would
have more range be faster handle better and stop quicker. You could drop
the
24,000 price down more if you built it to equal the performance of the lead
acid
batteries. Then all you would gain is in the long run they would cost less
because they have thousands of cycles verses lead acids hundreds of cycles.
Also notice the Valance is rated at the C-5 most lead acid is rated at C-20
both of these are lower than real EV use of C-1. I have only looked at the
Valence for AC systems. Others could tell you if this is even an option for
DC
motors.
If you consider the life time use the Valence batteries will provide you it
is actually less then lead it is just if one is willing to pay all the money
up front and receive the benefits of having less weight.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Oct 2006 at 8:31, jerryd wrote:
> It's nice when 2 people can
> just pick it up because it's so light.
The Mini-Evergreen bodyshell was so light that one person could carry it -
standing on one foot.
http://www.solarmobil.net/mini05.jpg
This is the car that Axel Krause drove over the Alps on one charge. I wish
these were still available. I probably couldn't afford one though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From:
http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/06/2024229
"I just finished watching 'Who Killed the Electric Car', and was quite
impressed. I'm too poor to buy anything but an old clunker, and not eager to
pollute the atmosphere (or empty my wallet) with gasoline. The movie inspired
me: I think I'd like to convert an old car (or perhaps a motorbike) to run on
electricity. Have Slashdot readers attempted such a thing before? What
experiences have you had, and what would you recommend or not recommend?"
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Usually I can read your ascii drawings but not today ;) I'll try and
understand it more later. For now I'll address your comments below.
I cut and paste everything into Notepad and now the light goes on :)
I'll bread board your's up and see how it goes.
Thanks Loads Lee!
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> - D1 is backwards
Could be. I made a functional circuit then drew the schematic.
> - R6 is unnecessary
It made the led come on from the off state very slowly. If I can get
rid of it, that would be fine.
> - it requires a regulated power supply (not shown)
Correct. I want it to have a stable base of voltage from which to operate.
> - high power consumption from the battery
As designed it draws from the pack 3ma at 15v and around 1-2ma at 10v.
The regulated power requirement are around 15ma with 1 led lit to full
brightness.
> - poor temperature stability
Don't know yet. Could be. I'll find out with more testing.
> - no noise filtering
Correct. But I just needed to test the concept before making it bullet
proof.
> If this is all you want to do, try this circuit I posted back in
July 2004:
>
> _________________________
> | D1 | |
> | 6.8v _|_/ U1 > R2
> | zener //_\ __|\|__ > 2.2k
> +__|__ | | |/| | >
> 12v ___ A |___| |___| B
> - | | | U2 | |
> | > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
> | R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.8v
> | 100 > 2.2k | zener
> |__/\/\___|_______________|
>
> U1 and U2 are the LEDs of darlington optocouplers. U1 lights for high
> battery voltages; U2 for low. Pick optos with high gain (high CTR) to
> minimize load current on the 12v battery and to make the dash LEDs as
> bright as possible. Pick the zeners and resistors to get the desired
> thresholds and to set how gradually you want the LEDs to light up as
the
> voltages change.
>
> The dash display could use a single LED, or 2-wire red/green LEDs, or
> 3-wire red/green LEDs, or of course 2 separate LEDs.
>
> 3-wire red/green LED 2-wire red/green LED: single LED
> or separate hi/low LEDs fault indicator
>
> +12v_________ +12v__________________ +12v________
> | | | | | |
> U1 |/ |/ U2 > green > U1 |/ |/ U2
> |\ |\ 1k > __|\|__ > 1k |\ |\
> _|_ _|_ > | |/| | < |_____|
> _\_/_ _\_/_ |___| |___| _|_
> green |______| red | | red | | fault _\_/_
> | | |__|/|__| | LED |
> > |/ |\| |/ >
> 1k > |\ U2 U1 |\ 1k >
> > GND___|_______________| >
> GND______| GND______|
>
>
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, as long as your expectations are the up to the standard and price of
gas cars, you will be continued to be disappointed and frustrated.
To get a basic understanding which will help your questions:
- read the FAQ at evparts.com
- read the resources at evalbum.com
- read through this EVDL archive - your questions are asked often
- use google - there are a lot of great EV sites
This is what it boils down to:
- Hobbyist EVs are rarely cost effective
- The range is not very good - at best a commuter car
- If you want better range you have to spend a lot of money
However:
- there are fast drag race EVs (they do cost money though!)
- EVs do not pollute
- EVs have very little maintenance
- are not dependant on foreign oil
- the fuel for EVs can be made at your own home
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: October 7, 2006 11:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
40X?!?! Even with a large group purchase? What the heck would it be if you
just bought the outright as an individual?
So you're saying that for me to buy the equivalent of about $1200 of lead
batteries, it would cost $48,000? Those 12v are over $2,000 a piece? At a
group discount?
I might as well pony up the extra money and buy a Tesla.
Grr... At this rate EVs will never take off.
More frustration and disappointment :(
[clipped] ... I'd be willing to pay up to 3X the cost of
> lead.
>
> Is that not high enough?
> Mike
It would be about 40X times to be equal to my lead.
Also, I got a bid on supercapacitors from esma-cap.com for 40X times which
would be 1/2 the range of my lead.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is not 40 times as much. I would say it is around 10 times or less taking
into account lead acid batteries and not very often rated at C-5.
Here is the big difference your 12 lead acid batteries are going to weigh 8
or 9 hundred pounds. The 12 Valence batteries weigh 420 pounds.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 11:12:51 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
40X?!?! Even with a large group purchase? What the heck would it be if you
just bought the outright as an individual?
So you're saying that for me to buy the equivalent of about $1200 of lead
batteries, it would cost $48,000? Those 12v are over $2,000 a piece? At a
group discount?
I might as well pony up the extra money and buy a Tesla.
Grr... At this rate EVs will never take off.
More frustration and disappointment :(
[clipped] ... I'd be willing to pay up to 3X the cost of
> lead.
>
> Is that not high enough?
> Mike
It would be about 40X times to be equal to my lead.
Also, I got a bid on supercapacitors from esma-cap.com for 40X times which
would be 1/2 the range of my lead.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great advice from Don Cameron.
I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget is but
starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar sports car as
your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one could
would it be a good idea?
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 11:21:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thanks for that explanation, $24,000 is better than $48,000, however still
too high.
How much would it cost to bring the valence batteries inline with
performance and range of lead, and how would that be achieved? Fewer
batteries? Lower amp battery (I noticed they have several versions with
different amps).
I'm not sure what the C ratings mean, I'm still learning.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It depends on what range you require from your EV and what motor you have
decided on.
I have only looked at AC systems and been driving them for several years so
my understanding of DC systems is in the learning process.
With Valence batteries they weigh a lot less than lead acid so you get
better performance and longer range. It does come at a price though. This
is just
a grab out of the air figure . If you spent $2000 dollars in AGM 20 x $100
of
100 ah batteries for your vehicle you would have to spend around 24,000 to
have the same Ah rating. However it would not be the same vehicle it would
have more range be faster handle better and stop quicker. You could drop
the
24,000 price down more if you built it to equal the performance of the lead
acid
batteries. Then all you would gain is in the long run they would cost less
because they have thousands of cycles verses lead acids hundreds of cycles.
Also notice the Valance is rated at the C-5 most lead acid is rated at C-20
both of these are lower than real EV use of C-1. I have only looked at the
Valence for AC systems. Others could tell you if this is even an option for
DC
motors.
If you consider the life time use the Valence batteries will provide you it
is actually less then lead it is just if one is willing to pay all the money
up front and receive the benefits of having less weight.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking for some design advice on batteries.
First off, I have a strong inclination toward SAFT NiCd simply for the
longevity reason. In a nutshell, I need some help figuring out whether
these cells will provide the performance I desire and at what cost. The
bottom line on performance and range desired is 20-30 miles and at least
stock-like acceleration for highway merges. Anything in excess of that is
considered gravy and may be fitted as space and budget permits.
I look at it this way: The car may rot to the ground 10 years from now, but
it would be nice to have a conversion worthy of transplanting to another
chassis should the need arise.
So assuming an unstripped chassis weight of around 2400 lbs (guessing 2050
stripped):
- How many cells should I use at what pack voltage?
- Will I need a controller with current amplification and voltage stepdown
to get good performance out the pack?
- Where can I get the cells and at what cost?
Obviously I know that my low rpm torque is going to be limited by the lesser
of motor (probably a 9"), controller (hopefully a Z1k), or battery power,
but I'd like to have a little headroom available from all three. A top
speed of 80 mph would be plenty.
95% of the time, this car won't travel more than 10 miles in a day and will
typically only travel about 5 miles at less than 45mph. So the extended
range driving does not necessarily have to include the higher performance.
I also need to know if there are special design considerations I should take
with respect to charging, heat, and expansion. In other words, can a
charger like a PFC provide a safe charge without cooking the cells, and what
cooling is necessary?
Thanks!
-
Kip
Eugene, OR
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm kind of amazed at the price of even current ultra caps to get
even 1/2 of the range. Do capacitors have a charge cycle rating?
What are the issues that are going to come up with using these
instead of batteries? They are only going to get cheaper and better
suited for something like this.
Ian
On Oct 7, 2006, at 11.50 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Great advice from Don Cameron.
I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
experience of real world results. You have not said what your
budget is but
starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
sports car as
your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if
one could
would it be a good idea?
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 11:21:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thanks for that explanation, $24,000 is better than $48,000,
however still
too high.
How much would it cost to bring the valence batteries inline with
performance and range of lead, and how would that be achieved? Fewer
batteries? Lower amp battery (I noticed they have several versions
with
different amps).
I'm not sure what the C ratings mean, I'm still learning.
Thanks,
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner-
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It depends on what range you require from your EV and what motor
you have
decided on.
I have only looked at AC systems and been driving them for several
years so
my understanding of DC systems is in the learning process.
With Valence batteries they weigh a lot less than lead acid so you
get
better performance and longer range. It does come at a price
though. This
is just
a grab out of the air figure . If you spent $2000 dollars in AGM
20 x $100
of
100 ah batteries for your vehicle you would have to spend around
24,000 to
have the same Ah rating. However it would not be the same vehicle
it would
have more range be faster handle better and stop quicker. You
could drop
the
24,000 price down more if you built it to equal the performance
of the lead
acid
batteries. Then all you would gain is in the long run they would
cost less
because they have thousands of cycles verses lead acids hundreds
of cycles.
Also notice the Valance is rated at the C-5 most lead acid is
rated at C-20
both of these are lower than real EV use of C-1. I have only
looked at the
Valence for AC systems. Others could tell you if this is even an
option for
DC
motors.
If you consider the life time use the Valence batteries will
provide you it
is actually less then lead it is just if one is willing to pay all
the money
up front and receive the benefits of having less weight.
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Kip
You might be a little high on your starting weight. I have used this site to
find vehicle information _http://www.carsplusplus.com/brands/index.php_
(http://www.carsplusplus.com/brands/index.php)
They have listed a 1984 at 2116 pounds and the 1986 supercharged at 2259
pounds.
I don't think you can use the PFC charger on NiCad batteries. If your
serious about that battery I do have a Brusa charger that is set up for 120
volt
SAFT batteries.
Since your in Oregon I will let you know I have a 1998 Factory EV Ranger
that has brand new 12 volt batteries that I would sell to you for 15,000
dollars. It has 7000 miles on it and 50 to 60 miles range. It is even in your
area
now check out this site _http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html_
(http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html)
The blue one in the picture looks just like the one I have for sale. You
could buy the whole vehicle for the price of just the SAFT batteries.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 12:12:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm looking for some design advice on batteries.
First off, I have a strong inclination toward SAFT NiCd simply for the
longevity reason. In a nutshell, I need some help figuring out whether
these cells will provide the performance I desire and at what cost. The
bottom line on performance and range desired is 20-30 miles and at least
stock-like acceleration for highway merges. Anything in excess of that is
considered gravy and may be fitted as space and budget permits.
I look at it this way: The car may rot to the ground 10 years from now,
but
it would be nice to have a conversion worthy of transplanting to another
chassis should the need arise.
So assuming an unstripped chassis weight of around 2400 lbs (guessing 2050
stripped):
- How many cells should I use at what pack voltage?
- Will I need a controller with current amplification and voltage stepdown
to get good performance out the pack?
- Where can I get the cells and at what cost?
Obviously I know that my low rpm torque is going to be limited by the lesser
of motor (probably a 9"), controller (hopefully a Z1k), or battery power,
but I'd like to have a little headroom available from all three. A top
speed of 80 mph would be plenty.
95% of the time, this car won't travel more than 10 miles in a day and will
typically only travel about 5 miles at less than 45mph. So the extended
range driving does not necessarily have to include the higher performance.
I also need to know if there are special design considerations I should take
with respect to charging, heat, and expansion. In other words, can a
charger like a PFC provide a safe charge without cooking the cells, and what
cooling is necessary?
Thanks!
-
Kip
Eugene, OR
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, is there anyone I can contact about getting some Saft flooded NiCd's?
In this case, I specifically need pricing to replace my BB600 cells
that were destroyed in my shop fire.
(SG Photo doesn't seem to actually have any, even though they are
listed on their web site.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure I can answer your questions, but I think
I can provide a data point. I'll talk (from memory)
about Bill Dube's VW rabbit convertable, with an ADC
8" motor, 1200A grizburger controller, and (I believe)
144V of saft NiCds. He drives to work and back, runs
trips over lunch, 5 days a week, about 28 miles each
way. He used brand new Saft NiCds, the water cooled
kind designed for EV use. I think 100 Ah? I think
they cost about $10k? I think he has about 30k miles
and still going strong, even in the cold winter. It
is expected to get 100K miles out of the pack, if
stupid user mistakes don't kill them... The car
definetly has more power/acceleration than the stock
gas engine. I think he tells people it has 40 to 80
mile range, depending on driving style. This is in
colorado, and the big hills are not a problem. I
personally believe water cooled nicds are the way to
go; it helps keep them extreemly balanced. The cells
are always within a few milivolts of each other. But
water cooling is a pain; lots of connections that can
leak. These batteries also have an automatic
wattering system, where you put distilled water in one
end, and when a cell is "full", it bypasses the
incomming water to the next cell, as to not over
dilute that cell.
I will need a higher voltage for my AC drive than I
have room for to use these batteries. If they came in
1/3 the Ah and 1/3 the size, and 1/3 the price, I
would have bought a set myself.
- Steven Ciciora
--- Kip C Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm looking for some design advice on batteries.
>
> First off, I have a strong inclination toward SAFT
> NiCd simply for the
> longevity reason. In a nutshell, I need some help
> figuring out whether
> these cells will provide the performance I desire
> and at what cost. The
> bottom line on performance and range desired is
> 20-30 miles and at least
> stock-like acceleration for highway merges.
> Anything in excess of that is
> considered gravy and may be fitted as space and
> budget permits.
>
> I look at it this way: The car may rot to the
> ground 10 years from now, but
> it would be nice to have a conversion worthy of
> transplanting to another
> chassis should the need arise.
>
> So assuming an unstripped chassis weight of around
> 2400 lbs (guessing 2050
> stripped):
>
> - How many cells should I use at what pack voltage?
> - Will I need a controller with current
> amplification and voltage stepdown
> to get good performance out the pack?
> - Where can I get the cells and at what cost?
>
> Obviously I know that my low rpm torque is going to
> be limited by the lesser
> of motor (probably a 9"), controller (hopefully a
> Z1k), or battery power,
> but I'd like to have a little headroom available
> from all three. A top
> speed of 80 mph would be plenty.
>
> 95% of the time, this car won't travel more than 10
> miles in a day and will
> typically only travel about 5 miles at less than
> 45mph. So the extended
> range driving does not necessarily have to include
> the higher performance.
>
> I also need to know if there are special design
> considerations I should take
> with respect to charging, heat, and expansion. In
> other words, can a
> charger like a PFC provide a safe charge without
> cooking the cells, and what
> cooling is necessary?
>
> Thanks!
> -
> Kip
> Eugene, OR
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
