EV Digest 5980
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Supercapacitor Data
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Saft NiCd supplier
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: AC and DC together?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
hehe, need a GIF or JPG posted somewhere, can't make heads or tails of this
:op
If this is all you want to do, try this circuit I posted back in July
2004:
_________________________
| D1 | |
| 6.8v _|_/ U1 > R2
| zener //_\ __|\|__ > 2.2k
+__|__ | | |/| | >
12v ___ A |___| |___| B
- | | | U2 | |
| > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
| R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.8v
| 100 > 2.2k | zener
|__/\/\___|_______________|
U1 and U2 are the LEDs of darlington optocouplers. U1 lights for high
battery voltages; U2 for low. Pick optos with high gain (high CTR) to
minimize load current on the 12v battery and to make the dash LEDs as
bright as possible. Pick the zeners and resistors to get the desired
thresholds and to set how gradually you want the LEDs to light up as the
voltages change.
The dash display could use a single LED, or 2-wire red/green LEDs, or
3-wire red/green LEDs, or of course 2 separate LEDs.
3-wire red/green LED 2-wire red/green LED: single LED
or separate hi/low LEDs fault indicator
+12v_________ +12v__________________ +12v________
| | | | | |
U1 |/ |/ U2 > green > U1 |/ |/ U2
|\ |\ 1k > __|\|__ > 1k |\ |\
_|_ _|_ > | |/| | < |_____|
_\_/_ _\_/_ |___| |___| _|_
green |______| red | | red | | fault _\_/_
| | |__|/|__| | LED |
> |/ |\| |/ >
1k > |\ U2 U1 |\ 1k >
> GND___|_______________| >
GND______| GND______|
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Page-Echols" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 1:36 PM
Subject: Re: Supercapacitor Data
> I'm kind of amazed at the price of even current ultra caps to get
> even 1/2 of the range. Do capacitors have a charge cycle rating?
> What are the issues that are going to come up with using these
> instead of batteries? They are only going to get cheaper and better
> suited for something like this.
>
> Ian
Hello Ian,
These are super capacitors, not ultra-capacitors.
These units come in a 10-cell modules connected in series. At about 1.7
volts per cell this becomes 17 volts per modules. Something like a 8D
battery with post.
The dimension of a 10 cell module is 20 inches long by 10 inches high to the
top of the post and 7 inches wide that weighs 75 lbs.
A 220 volt pack would take 13 of these modules that would weigh 975 lbs.
Less than my thirty 72 lbs 6 volts that weigh 2160 lbs.
These 13 modules will fit in the same area of my 180 volt pack except they
would be 220 volt.
Unlike batteries of a 180 volt pack, which is charge to 6.68 volts per
battery or 200 volts total and drops right to 192 volts, are normally
discharge to 50% DOD or 179 volts, the super capacitors maximum voltage
starts out at 220 volts and drops right to 210 volts at load.
The voltage window is 210 to 105 volts with a maximum power of 420 KW or
about 32 KW per 17 volt module with a voltage window of 16-8 volts.
Each capacitor cell is 460 F at 15 ampere-hour each. A 17 volt module has a
capacitor rating of 6000 F. at 32 KW at 150 AH each.
Operating window per 17 volt module is from 16 to 8 volts. Have a internal
Ohmic reistance of 2 mOhms.
Operating temperture is -50 to +70 C.
These can be charge with any ampere available up to the maximum voltage of
the pack. The 10 ton buses have a loop range of about 10 miles and they
charge them with 300 amps for a 5 to 10 minute charge.
The Cycle Life is about 500,000 cycles.
The estimate cost is $300.00 per cell.
$3000.00 per 10 cell module.
$39,000.00 for 13 modules.
Data from: http://www.esma-cap.com/about/?lang=English
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Great advice from Don Cameron.
> I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
> experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget is
but
> starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
sports car as
> your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
could
> would it be a good idea?
> Don
My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs to
get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover even
in resale.
Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
discouragement from a goal)
So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in a
car. Am I missing something?
Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at least
for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are happy
with that, and that's great for you!).
Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I know
you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
the 914.
So ....
Here's what I want.
I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under 10
seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to assist
in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
lifetime.
I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
every 3-5 years.
I want a heater! (A/C optional)
So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost $50,000
or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion I
won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
need to get what I want out of this conversion.
Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
expectations in a vehicle.
And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last time I had contact with Valence it was $18K for 120V/140Ah. I don't
really know how that would compare to a set of 20 T-125, maybe somebody is
able to read the charts and is able to compare available AH's for both,
Valence and Trojans, i.e. how many Valence AHs do I need to achieve at
least the same range as with Trojan T-125s, pulling between 100 and 200
Amps.
Michaela
>
> The C rating is how long (hours) the battery will last. If taken faster
> then
> the rated C rating the battery will provide much less.
>
> You need to study Ah ratings and compare. A 100 Ah battery at the C20 rate
> may only be 60 or less of Ah at the 1 C rate.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 10/7/2006 11:21:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> Thanks for that explanation, $24,000 is better than $48,000, however
> still
> too high.
>
> How much would it cost to bring the valence batteries inline with
> performance and range of lead, and how would that be achieved? Fewer
> batteries? Lower amp battery (I noticed they have several versions with
> different amps).
>
> I'm not sure what the C ratings mean, I'm still learning.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 2:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
>
> Hello Mike
>
> It depends on what range you require from your EV and what motor you have
> decided on.
>
> I have only looked at AC systems and been driving them for several years
> so
>
> my understanding of DC systems is in the learning process.
>
> With Valence batteries they weigh a lot less than lead acid so you get
> better performance and longer range. It does come at a price though.
> This
> is just
> a grab out of the air figure . If you spent $2000 dollars in AGM 20 x
> $100
> of
> 100 ah batteries for your vehicle you would have to spend around 24,000
> to
> have the same Ah rating. However it would not be the same vehicle it
> would
> have more range be faster handle better and stop quicker. You could drop
> the
> 24,000 price down more if you built it to equal the performance of the
> lead
> acid
> batteries. Then all you would gain is in the long run they would cost
> less
> because they have thousands of cycles verses lead acids hundreds of
> cycles.
>
> Also notice the Valance is rated at the C-5 most lead acid is rated at
> C-20
>
> both of these are lower than real EV use of C-1. I have only looked at
> the
> Valence for AC systems. Others could tell you if this is even an option
> for
> DC
> motors.
>
> If you consider the life time use the Valence batteries will provide you
> it
>
> is actually less then lead it is just if one is willing to pay all the
> money
>
> up front and receive the benefits of having less weight.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Lawrence Rhodes has a couple hundred of them he wants to sell.
He's in here all of the time.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So, is there anyone I can contact about getting some Saft flooded
NiCd's?
> In this case, I specifically need pricing to replace my BB600 cells
> that were destroyed in my shop fire.
> (SG Photo doesn't seem to actually have any, even though they are
> listed on their web site.)
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you try to cut and paste it into Notepad on your PC?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> hehe, need a GIF or JPG posted somewhere, can't make heads or tails
of this
> :op
>
> > If this is all you want to do, try this circuit I posted back in July
> > 2004:
> >
> > _________________________
> > | D1 | |
> > | 6.8v _|_/ U1 > R2
> > | zener //_\ __|\|__ > 2.2k
> > +__|__ | | |/| | >
> > 12v ___ A |___| |___| B
> > - | | | U2 | |
> > | > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
> > | R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.8v
> > | 100 > 2.2k | zener
> > |__/\/\___|_______________|
> >
> > U1 and U2 are the LEDs of darlington optocouplers. U1 lights for high
> > battery voltages; U2 for low. Pick optos with high gain (high CTR) to
> > minimize load current on the 12v battery and to make the dash LEDs as
> > bright as possible. Pick the zeners and resistors to get the desired
> > thresholds and to set how gradually you want the LEDs to light up
as the
> > voltages change.
> >
> > The dash display could use a single LED, or 2-wire red/green LEDs, or
> > 3-wire red/green LEDs, or of course 2 separate LEDs.
> >
> > 3-wire red/green LED 2-wire red/green LED: single LED
> > or separate hi/low LEDs fault indicator
> >
> > +12v_________ +12v__________________ +12v________
> > | | | | | |
> > U1 |/ |/ U2 > green > U1 |/ |/ U2
> > |\ |\ 1k > __|\|__ > 1k |\ |\
> > _|_ _|_ > | |/| | < |_____|
> > _\_/_ _\_/_ |___| |___| _|_
> > green |______| red | | red | | fault _\_/_
> > | | |__|/|__| | LED |
> > > |/ |\| |/ >
> > 1k > |\ U2 U1 |\ 1k >
> > > GND___|_______________| >
> > GND______| GND______|
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Eric Poulsen wrote:
You don't really explain your desire for a new AC controller design.
I think it's fairly obvious. He wants a source for Ac motor
controllers that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. But it's a challenging
project! Most of the people who have "toughed through" it realize that
they spend a lot of time and money on it. They understandably don't
want to just give it all away for nothing.
Plus, building a full-blown AC motor controller is more like building
a house than a birdhouse. It takes a lot of skill, special tools,
time, and money. The average Joe that wants plans for free off the
internet will never follow through and build it (but will nevertheless
bug the author to death for free advice! :-)
The closest thing to what you want are the plans in the Motor Control
Handbook by Richard Valentine. Buy the book, get the plans, build the
controller.
I had meant: Why AC as opposed to using what is easy / cheap / and
works? (DC)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ahhh
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mark McCurdy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
Did you try to cut and paste it into Notepad on your PC?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
hehe, need a GIF or JPG posted somewhere, can't make heads or tails
of this
:op
> If this is all you want to do, try this circuit I posted back in July
> 2004:
>
> _________________________
> | D1 | |
> | 6.8v _|_/ U1 > R2
> | zener //_\ __|\|__ > 2.2k
> +__|__ | | |/| | >
> 12v ___ A |___| |___| B
> - | | | U2 | |
> | > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
> | R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.8v
> | 100 > 2.2k | zener
> |__/\/\___|_______________|
>
> U1 and U2 are the LEDs of darlington optocouplers. U1 lights for high
> battery voltages; U2 for low. Pick optos with high gain (high CTR) to
> minimize load current on the 12v battery and to make the dash LEDs as
> bright as possible. Pick the zeners and resistors to get the desired
> thresholds and to set how gradually you want the LEDs to light up
as the
> voltages change.
>
> The dash display could use a single LED, or 2-wire red/green LEDs, or
> 3-wire red/green LEDs, or of course 2 separate LEDs.
>
> 3-wire red/green LED 2-wire red/green LED: single LED
> or separate hi/low LEDs fault indicator
>
> +12v_________ +12v__________________ +12v________
> | | | | | |
> U1 |/ |/ U2 > green > U1 |/ |/ U2
> |\ |\ 1k > __|\|__ > 1k |\ |\
> _|_ _|_ > | |/| | < |_____|
> _\_/_ _\_/_ |___| |___| _|_
> green |______| red | | red | | fault _\_/_
> | | |__|/|__| | LED |
> > |/ |\| |/ >
> 1k > |\ U2 U1 |\ 1k >
> > GND___|_______________| >
> GND______| GND______|
>
>
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I just breadboarded this circuit. The led's light very smoothly on or
off. I need a low range of 9.0-9.5v and a high range of 13.0-13.5v.
I've only tried it using led's for U1 and U2. Right now the parts
values are just a bit off, but the concept is solid. Since I'm going
out for lunch I'll grab some other zener values.
This circuit make for more parts in the pack. Do you suppose I could
put an opto between the 12v battery and the rest of the circuit? I'm
only measuring up to 15ma when the high led is fully lit, 8ma when
both led's are out, and 2ma when the low led is lit. So maybe any opto
could drive it?
Since I have 28 modules to monitor I'd like to not have more than one
wire per module going to the dash with a common return for all channels.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> _________________________
> | D1 | |
> | 6.8v _|_/ U1 > R2
> | zener //_\ __|\|__ > 2.2k
> +__|__ | | |/| | >
> 12v ___ A |___| |___| B
> - | | | U2 | |
> | > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
> | R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.8v
> | 100 > 2.2k | zener
> |__/\/\___|_______________|
>
> U1 and U2 are the LEDs of darlington optocouplers. U1 lights for high
> battery voltages; U2 for low. Pick optos with high gain (high CTR) to
> minimize load current on the 12v battery and to make the dash LEDs as
> bright as possible. Pick the zeners and resistors to get the desired
> thresholds and to set how gradually you want the LEDs to light up as
the
> voltages change.
>
> The dash display could use a single LED, or 2-wire red/green LEDs, or
> 3-wire red/green LEDs, or of course 2 separate LEDs.
>
> 3-wire red/green LED 2-wire red/green LED: single LED
> or separate hi/low LEDs fault indicator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As you are interested in Valence batteries, ask them please about their
battery calendar life ?
then ask them to waranty on invoice what you are going to heard !
>From testing i have never seen more than 250 cycles from lipoly for exemple
with half initial
capacity after this on first year and near nothing (25%) at year 2 (stored
half charged)
Li-ion degrade a lot with age (quickly becoming useless because of Internal
resistance growing)
so how is healthy a Valence battery after 5 years and let's say 1000cycles
at 50% DOD ?
can we go for 5 more years and +1000 cycles with still 80% initial capacity
?
I know you read the list Mark and as i expect a lot from Valence batteries
for EV maybe you can answer
here please about this crucial point, +2000 cycles of 100 miles is useless
if you don't have enough years to make them true
and have your money back from total km battery life.
For me it's the only major brake to li-ion development for EV.
We know how to deal with lithium batteries charge/discharge procedure, with
fire issue (yes even with cobalt cells)
but having more range and cyclic life is not a deal if they don't last more
than 5 years until loosing half capacity.
200 000 miles for 10 years usable life would be perfect for me though
or 100 000 miles for 5 years usable life at half cost would be ok too ;^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:04 PM
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> > Great advice from Don Cameron.
>
> > I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get
some
>
> > experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget
is
> but
> > starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
> sports car as
> > your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
> could
> > would it be a good idea?
>
> > Don
>
> My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs
to
> get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
> willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
>
> I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
> possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
> maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
> Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
> can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover
even
> in resale.
>
> Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
> discouragement from a goal)
>
> So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
> the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
>
> I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in
a
> car. Am I missing something?
>
> Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
> most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at
least
> for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
> week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
> people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
happy
> with that, and that's great for you!).
>
> Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
> others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
> their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I
know
> you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
> claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
> the 914.
>
> So ....
>
> Here's what I want.
>
> I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under
10
> seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
> I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
assist
> in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
> I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
> decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
> lifetime.
> I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
> every 3-5 years.
> I want a heater! (A/C optional)
>
> So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
>
> And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
> or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion
I
> won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
> the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
>
> I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
> need to get what I want out of this conversion.
>
> Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
>
> I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
> unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
> believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
> expectations in a vehicle.
>
> And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
>
>
> Mike
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on
this,
> possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
> maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
> Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
> can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never
recover even
> in resale.
Why you would buy a car to convert *before* you had researched all the
concepts, prices, and limitations of an EV? With a limited budget, it
would be better to buy an already-made conversion, because people
*don't* get a return on their investment of money or time.
> So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be
disappointed with
> the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
>
> I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better
batteries in a
> car. Am I missing something?
You posted a total budget, a performance envelope and a specific car
as starting point. You can get range with low-average performance (Red
Beastie) or performance without much range (White Zombie, Blue
Meanie), and you can get it *all* with enough CASH.
> Here's what I want.
>
> I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in
under 10
> seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
> I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
assist
> in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
> I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
> decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing
their
> lifetime.
> I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
> every 3-5 years.
> I want a heater! (A/C optional)
>
That's a lot of wantin' - maybe if you didn't grow up with ICE cars,
it wouldn't be such a shock. You don't want to replace your pack in a
few years? Neither do most of us. NiCd's last for years, but need
watering, and the RAV4's with NiMH are going strong with 80K miles and
more, but you can't buy their batteries any more!
> And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
> or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a
conversion I
> won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this
list, put
> the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
>
Hadn't priced them - can you buy a new Prius for $20-25K? Even if you
can get a Valence pack for $18K (or Kokams, or AirLab's NiMHs), you
won't have much left for the rest of the project.
> And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
>
EVs are NOT for everyone, at least not right now and in an affordable
price range - that's the reality. But listees are putting miles on
their EVs *constantly* as we speak, so EVs do work for *some* people.
Private jet planes are not for everyone, McMansions aren't for
everyone, owning a potbelly pig isn't for everyone, and neither is
parking all your non-running cars in the front yard. Sure, we'd *like*
there to be an EV in every single garage, but it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Shall we send the Madman over with his 2x4 of EV reality?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike
It comes down to this. Your talking about the very limits of what an
electric vehicles can do. You want to go fast and you want to go far.
The current high prices for doing this are because of the low sales volume.
Until mass production is done the prices will stay high. Also there are
different ICE vehicles for different uses. SUV for the family vehicles Sports
cars
pick up trucks it all depends what you want. They don't do everything either
some go 300 miles on a tank and other go 500 miles on a tank. It is how
often and how fast the tank fills up on the EV that is different.
I suggested the AGM battery because they are sealed and are now being
produced at reasonable prices. They do cause limits in what an EV can do with
their
weight and to a lesser degree their size. They will power an EV fast or Far
but you cannot do both with any lead acid battery.
Your goal of 100 miles is what I see as the biggest obstacle. Do you really
have to have 100 miles? I drive most of the time an hour a day the other 23
hours the vehicle is sitting. I have gone well over one hundred miles in a day
but not in one trip. If you can charge where you are going that really
changes. It is the time a vehicle sits around that can be put to use.
I can only say when you do not have to stop in gas stations anymore that the
value of that is worth having a second car or renting a car when you really
have to. I will not be buying any new car until it plugs in. I have an ICE
vehicle but I don't drive it unless I have to.
If you drop the mileage you could make the Porsche more like a sports car
for a reasonable amount of money. If not your looking at the most expensive
batteries.
If your driving 100 miles one way every day your going to have to look at
the limitations or cost of what it would take to do this. If you only feel you
need 100 miles is it really worth the expense to know it is there? This a
problem most ICE drivers have when laughing at the range of an EV. If most of
them really track their actual use they would figure out they too can drive by
just about every gas station.
A question you need to answer is what is the longest distance I really must
travel before I can recharge. Take a look at where you go for the next month
and write them down.
I agree with you I cannot believe it is not affordable to get the technology
that is here now that would change our country for the better. It is until
people stop buying new cars as they are when things will change. I commend you
for considering a hybrid this is a step in the right direction. The best
answer that would take care of everyone's needs would be a plug in hybrid.
This is a great list for help and their might be an electric club in your
area. You can do this and you will be a lot more proud of what you have done. I
say make it fast but accept a lower range. I had a Solectria that was fun and
if it was as fast as what you could build I would have never sold it. I am
also in the process of doing something closer to your project.
Don
1998 NiMH S-10
In a message dated 10/7/2006 2:05:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Great advice from Don Cameron.
> I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
> experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget is
but
> starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
sports car as
> your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
could
> would it be a good idea?
> Don
My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs to
get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover even
in resale.
Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
discouragement from a goal)
So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in a
car. Am I missing something?
Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at least
for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are happy
with that, and that's great for you!).
Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I know
you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
the 914.
So ....
Here's what I want.
I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under 10
seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to assist
in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
lifetime.
I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
every 3-5 years.
I want a heater! (A/C optional)
So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost $50,000
or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion I
won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
need to get what I want out of this conversion.
Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
expectations in a vehicle.
And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 6, 2006, at 9:53 AM, Jack Murray wrote:
Death to All Spammers wrote:
Don, if you are serious, I'd be happy to build you a fast car.
I was considering building a C5 corvette with the AC55 motor, it
would go into the trans tunnel and drives the differential, bats
would be in the engine compartment.
I'm don't see what two motors really does for you, the speed
limitation is the batteries ability to delivery enough power to the
motor(s).
A big motor or two won't go any faster if the batteries can't run
them.
But the AC55 peaks at 78kw - how fast of a car will that make? That's
half the kw of the smallest Zilla!
Well it looks like the Warp 11 is only rated at (75Kw) 95hp at 144
volts (according to EV USA) and weighs 229lbs
Ah, there is a catch. Most AC systems are a motor + controller package.
The given power is the peak power you will get at max (or rated, if
different) voltage.
Series DC motors and controllers are (generally) sold separately. The
motor is generally rated for continuous power. The controller doesn't
have to limit the input to continuous rated power. The motor can take
many times that power for 30 seconds (more than long enough to hurl you
away from a light.) I would suspect that even an ADC 8 inch motor can
make 200 kW for a matter of seconds (and Jim Husted will cringe :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks.
I guess I'll slink quietly away from this list now.
But I Appreciate the encouragement.
Rather than posting suggestions on what I can do to get close to what I
want, or part of the way to what I want, I get useless replies like the one
below.
A few of you have been very helpful, and I thank you for that, but too many
want to discourage pushing boundaries rather than encourage.
I realize the list of items I want in my EV are difficult to attain. But
that is reality for the average consumer, because the reality is that
EVERYONE was raised on an ICE.
No, I don't need a 100 mile range for my everyday life, 50 maybe, but 100
miles or more in a day is NOT that uncommon for me.
I'm asking about solutions for pushing those boundaries. What can I do to
push it in the right direction?
Thanks anyways.
I'll be watching, but I don't think I'll be asking for much more advice from
this list.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on
this,
> possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
> maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
> Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
> can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never
recover even
> in resale.
Why you would buy a car to convert *before* you had researched all the
concepts, prices, and limitations of an EV? With a limited budget, it
would be better to buy an already-made conversion, because people
*don't* get a return on their investment of money or time.
> So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be
disappointed with
> the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
>
> I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better
batteries in a
> car. Am I missing something?
You posted a total budget, a performance envelope and a specific car
as starting point. You can get range with low-average performance (Red
Beastie) or performance without much range (White Zombie, Blue
Meanie), and you can get it *all* with enough CASH.
> Here's what I want.
>
> I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in
under 10
> seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
> I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
assist
> in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
> I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
> decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing
their
> lifetime.
> I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
> every 3-5 years.
> I want a heater! (A/C optional)
>
That's a lot of wantin' - maybe if you didn't grow up with ICE cars,
it wouldn't be such a shock. You don't want to replace your pack in a
few years? Neither do most of us. NiCd's last for years, but need
watering, and the RAV4's with NiMH are going strong with 80K miles and
more, but you can't buy their batteries any more!
> And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
> or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a
conversion I
> won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this
list, put
> the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
>
Hadn't priced them - can you buy a new Prius for $20-25K? Even if you
can get a Valence pack for $18K (or Kokams, or AirLab's NiMHs), you
won't have much left for the rest of the project.
> And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
>
EVs are NOT for everyone, at least not right now and in an affordable
price range - that's the reality. But listees are putting miles on
their EVs *constantly* as we speak, so EVs do work for *some* people.
Private jet planes are not for everyone, McMansions aren't for
everyone, owning a potbelly pig isn't for everyone, and neither is
parking all your non-running cars in the front yard. Sure, we'd *like*
there to be an EV in every single garage, but it WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Shall we send the Madman over with his 2x4 of EV reality?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Don.
I appreciate the kind reply.
No I don't have to do 100 miles every day, but there are many days when I do
drive more than 100 miles. Most days I don't drive at all, I work from home.
But client sites vary in distance.
Anyway, I know the obstacles. Everyone is ALL too fast to point them out.
I'm looking for solutions to those obstacles.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It comes down to this. Your talking about the very limits of what an
electric vehicles can do. You want to go fast and you want to go far.
The current high prices for doing this are because of the low sales volume.
Until mass production is done the prices will stay high. Also there are
different ICE vehicles for different uses. SUV for the family vehicles
Sports cars
pick up trucks it all depends what you want. They don't do everything
either
some go 300 miles on a tank and other go 500 miles on a tank. It is how
often and how fast the tank fills up on the EV that is different.
I suggested the AGM battery because they are sealed and are now being
produced at reasonable prices. They do cause limits in what an EV can do
with their
weight and to a lesser degree their size. They will power an EV fast or Far
but you cannot do both with any lead acid battery.
Your goal of 100 miles is what I see as the biggest obstacle. Do you really
have to have 100 miles? I drive most of the time an hour a day the other 23
hours the vehicle is sitting. I have gone well over one hundred miles in a
day
but not in one trip. If you can charge where you are going that really
changes. It is the time a vehicle sits around that can be put to use.
I can only say when you do not have to stop in gas stations anymore that
the
value of that is worth having a second car or renting a car when you really
have to. I will not be buying any new car until it plugs in. I have an ICE
vehicle but I don't drive it unless I have to.
If you drop the mileage you could make the Porsche more like a sports car
for a reasonable amount of money. If not your looking at the most expensive
batteries.
If your driving 100 miles one way every day your going to have to look at
the limitations or cost of what it would take to do this. If you only feel
you
need 100 miles is it really worth the expense to know it is there? This a
problem most ICE drivers have when laughing at the range of an EV. If most
of
them really track their actual use they would figure out they too can drive
by
just about every gas station.
A question you need to answer is what is the longest distance I really must
travel before I can recharge. Take a look at where you go for the next
month
and write them down.
I agree with you I cannot believe it is not affordable to get the
technology
that is here now that would change our country for the better. It is until
people stop buying new cars as they are when things will change. I commend
you
for considering a hybrid this is a step in the right direction. The best
answer that would take care of everyone's needs would be a plug in hybrid.
This is a great list for help and their might be an electric club in your
area. You can do this and you will be a lot more proud of what you have
done. I
say make it fast but accept a lower range. I had a Solectria that was fun
and
if it was as fast as what you could build I would have never sold it. I am
also in the process of doing something closer to your project.
Don
1998 NiMH S-10
In a message dated 10/7/2006 2:05:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Great advice from Don Cameron.
> I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
> experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget is
but
> starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
sports car as
> your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
could
> would it be a good idea?
> Don
My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs to
get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover
even
in resale.
Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
discouragement from a goal)
So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in
a
car. Am I missing something?
Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at least
for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
happy
with that, and that's great for you!).
Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I know
you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
the 914.
So ....
Here's what I want.
I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under
10
seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to assist
in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
lifetime.
I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
every 3-5 years.
I want a heater! (A/C optional)
So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion I
won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
need to get what I want out of this conversion.
Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
expectations in a vehicle.
And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
Mike
--- End Message ---
