EV Digest 5981
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) RE: MIKE'S CONVERSION
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AC and DC together?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Saft Lithium-ion Module batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Short Range Medium Performance Conversion of an 85 MR2
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Panasonic12v NiMH batteries/ Delphi 8volts also.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Please remove my address from the ev list
by Michael Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) range
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) opinions on a kit?
by Ian Page-Echols <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
To put it simply, for $25,000, with a good Li-Ion that will last a long
time, it won't happen. Either go with a big pack of 1000+ pounds of AGM and
do lots of aero mods on your car, or save that money for when batteries get
better and cheaper and buy a good, cheap, used car, like a Civic for now.
There is a saying: "A world with 100% Prius drivers is still 100% addicted
to oil."
AC Propulsion did a Civic with aero mods and other efficiency tricks with 28
AGM Yellowtops and achieved a peak of 100 miles range. So you may look at
that route: efficiency mods + lots o lead. Of course to get that range, that
is 100% DOD, so your batteries won't last long IF you take it to the max
range a lot.
If you want, you can go with the route of buying a used 2004+ Prius to save
money, then do a plug-in add-on with lead at first, and li-ion as they
become more available and cheaper. That way, you can still go like 10 - 40
miles on elec, but range won't be an issue since it's a hybrid. I also heard
Toyota will be coming out with a 9 mile range plug-in hybrid for 2008. But
I'm not 100% sure about that.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 5:04 PM
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs
to
get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover
even
in resale.
Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
discouragement from a goal)
So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in
a
car. Am I missing something?
Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at
least
for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
happy
with that, and that's great for you!).
Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I
know
you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
the 914.
So ....
Here's what I want.
I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under
10
seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
assist
in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
lifetime.
I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
every 3-5 years.
I want a heater! (A/C optional)
So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion
I
won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
need to get what I want out of this conversion.
Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
expectations in a vehicle.
And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike
This is a break though. If most the time you do not go a hundred miles this
can work and I am sure you would be happy with performance. You would have to
give up the performance though when you went a hundred miles.
Build the Porsche to go 50 to miles and when you do have to go one hundred
miles pull a small trailer with a second pack. You could keep the trailer pack
fully charged and use quick disconnects you would be ready to go in a few
minutes.
Pulling the trailer will take some energy. However such a large pack you
will also be drawing less from the batteries and they would provide more amp
hours. It would work as long at you do not have to go 70 miles an hour. Speed,
weight and hills really use up a lot of power.
What state are you in? Is the area flat?
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 4:17:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thank you Don.
I appreciate the kind reply.
No I don't have to do 100 miles every day, but there are many days when I do
drive more than 100 miles. Most days I don't drive at all, I work from home.
But client sites vary in distance.
Anyway, I know the obstacles. Everyone is ALL too fast to point them out.
I'm looking for solutions to those obstacles.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It comes down to this. Your talking about the very limits of what an
electric vehicles can do. You want to go fast and you want to go far.
The current high prices for doing this are because of the low sales volume.
Until mass production is done the prices will stay high. Also there are
different ICE vehicles for different uses. SUV for the family vehicles
Sports cars
pick up trucks it all depends what you want. They don't do everything
either
some go 300 miles on a tank and other go 500 miles on a tank. It is how
often and how fast the tank fills up on the EV that is different.
I suggested the AGM battery because they are sealed and are now being
produced at reasonable prices. They do cause limits in what an EV can do
with their
weight and to a lesser degree their size. They will power an EV fast or Far
but you cannot do both with any lead acid battery.
Your goal of 100 miles is what I see as the biggest obstacle. Do you really
have to have 100 miles? I drive most of the time an hour a day the other 23
hours the vehicle is sitting. I have gone well over one hundred miles in a
day
but not in one trip. If you can charge where you are going that really
changes. It is the time a vehicle sits around that can be put to use.
I can only say when you do not have to stop in gas stations anymore that
the
value of that is worth having a second car or renting a car when you really
have to. I will not be buying any new car until it plugs in. I have an ICE
vehicle but I don't drive it unless I have to.
If you drop the mileage you could make the Porsche more like a sports car
for a reasonable amount of money. If not your looking at the most expensive
batteries.
If your driving 100 miles one way every day your going to have to look at
the limitations or cost of what it would take to do this. If you only feel
you
need 100 miles is it really worth the expense to know it is there? This a
problem most ICE drivers have when laughing at the range of an EV. If most
of
them really track their actual use they would figure out they too can drive
by
just about every gas station.
A question you need to answer is what is the longest distance I really must
travel before I can recharge. Take a look at where you go for the next
month
and write them down.
I agree with you I cannot believe it is not affordable to get the
technology
that is here now that would change our country for the better. It is until
people stop buying new cars as they are when things will change. I commend
you
for considering a hybrid this is a step in the right direction. The best
answer that would take care of everyone's needs would be a plug in hybrid.
This is a great list for help and their might be an electric club in your
area. You can do this and you will be a lot more proud of what you have
done. I
say make it fast but accept a lower range. I had a Solectria that was fun
and
if it was as fast as what you could build I would have never sold it. I am
also in the process of doing something closer to your project.
Don
1998 NiMH S-10
In a message dated 10/7/2006 2:05:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Great advice from Don Cameron.
> I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
> experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget is
but
> starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
sports car as
> your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
could
> would it be a good idea?
> Don
My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs to
get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover
even
in resale.
Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
discouragement from a goal)
So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in
a
car. Am I missing something?
Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at least
for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
happy
with that, and that's great for you!).
Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I know
you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
the 914.
So ....
Here's what I want.
I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under
10
seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to assist
in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
lifetime.
I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
every 3-5 years.
I want a heater! (A/C optional)
So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion I
won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
need to get what I want out of this conversion.
Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
expectations in a vehicle.
And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hello Mike
>
> It comes down to this. Your talking about the very
> limits of what an
> electric vehicles can do.
AND THEN ONLY THE VERRRRY MOST EXPENSIVE
> My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to
> put in some extra costs to
> get the range and performance I'm looking for, but
> not so much that I'm
> willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy
> a brand new Hybrid.
THIS IS WHY I DRIVE A HONDA INSIGHT
>
> I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more
> than $20,000 on this,
> possibly flexible up to $25,000
> Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets
> me off more than
> discouragement from a goal)
>
I HAVE SPENT $20,000 PLUS ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES. I
STILL HAVE A FEW MOST WITH AGM BATTERIES BUT NONE OF
THEM WILL GO EVEN 30 MI AT 70 MPH. I DO HAVE A
VALENCE POWERED VEHICLE THAT WILL GO AS FAR AS I CAN
PEDAL IT BUT AT 20MPH AND i HAVE $4,000 WORTH OF
BATTERIES IN IT
suggest AGM batteries? I know I
> will be disappointed with
> the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology
> forward?
>
> I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to
> put better batteries in
> a
> car. Am I missing something?
>
>
> UNLESS YOU HAVE AT LEAST A $50,000 BUDGET YOU ARE
NOT GOING TO BE HAPPY WITH YOUR END PRODUCT
=== message truncated ===
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
6 step it?. As a matter of fact, even on the larger AC motors, some
research has shown that sine drive at low rpms is more efficient but
switching over to 6 step at higher rpms would then reduce switching losses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/7/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks.
I guess I'll slink quietly away from this list now.
But I Appreciate the encouragement.
Rather than posting suggestions on what I can do to get close to what I
want, or part of the way to what I want, I get useless replies like the one
below.
A few of you have been very helpful, and I thank you for that, but too many
want to discourage pushing boundaries rather than encourage.
What boundaries? You are asking if you could have a Corvette but only
wanted to for a Metro. And, you want to build it yourself. You could
if you ramp the production of the Corvette to hundreds of thousand
units a year. You are trying to push the manufacturing boundaries.
Yes, you could. You need cash, at least a 100 million dollars.
You knew when you started this discussion that the technology is
already here. Buy a Tesla.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um, no. I'm asking for a car with less performance and range than a Metro.
Ok, fine, I know there are limitations everyone, I KNOW!
But for crying out loud, everytime I ask a question here, I'm simply told
what I can't do, and not what I can.
Very few are willing to offer suggestions.
Yeah, I know the technology is there.
Yeah I know it's expensive.
I'm not asking for a Tesla.
I didn't say 0-60 in 4 seconds.
I didn't say a top speed of 150 (or whatever ridiculous speed it gets)
I didn't say 250 miles on a charge.
I didn't expect a Tesla.
I was simply asking what I can do to get to where I want to be with the car
I have (or at least in the neighborhood).
Thanks again for the helpful response.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Ang
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
On 10/7/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks.
>
> I guess I'll slink quietly away from this list now.
>
> But I Appreciate the encouragement.
>
> Rather than posting suggestions on what I can do to get close to what I
> want, or part of the way to what I want, I get useless replies like the
one
> below.
>
> A few of you have been very helpful, and I thank you for that, but too
many
> want to discourage pushing boundaries rather than encourage.
>
What boundaries? You are asking if you could have a Corvette but only
wanted to for a Metro. And, you want to build it yourself. You could
if you ramp the production of the Corvette to hundreds of thousand
units a year. You are trying to push the manufacturing boundaries.
Yes, you could. You need cash, at least a 100 million dollars.
You knew when you started this discussion that the technology is
already here. Buy a Tesla.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Paul
I miss your point? I will go over how I got here. I was looking for a single
AC motor and controller that would provide the performance I wanted. I also
wanted to remove the need for a transmission.
Since that search came up empty I felt 2 AC motors that could be linked
together would work. With a controller for each motor I was accepting this
would
cost more. The only ones I came across would be closer to 60,000 dollars.
This made me a little bit more open minded about options such as an AC DC
combination. It still needs two controllers so that is no different from 2 AC
motors and I would have regeneration I need.
Looking at the more popular DC motors and found the TransWarP 11 is all set
up for dual motors and shaft drive. It would fairly easy to attach an AC
motor to this.
I have some options on the batteries but I am not sure what would be best
using these motors together.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 3:20:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Oct 6, 2006, at 9:53 AM, Jack Murray wrote:
> Death to All Spammers wrote:
>>> Don, if you are serious, I'd be happy to build you a fast car.
>>> I was considering building a C5 corvette with the AC55 motor, it
>>> would go into the trans tunnel and drives the differential, bats
>>> would be in the engine compartment.
>>> I'm don't see what two motors really does for you, the speed
>>> limitation is the batteries ability to delivery enough power to the
>>> motor(s).
>>> A big motor or two won't go any faster if the batteries can't run
>>> them.
>> But the AC55 peaks at 78kw - how fast of a car will that make? That's
>> half the kw of the smallest Zilla!
>
> Well it looks like the Warp 11 is only rated at (75Kw) 95hp at 144
> volts (according to EV USA) and weighs 229lbs
Ah, there is a catch. Most AC systems are a motor + controller package.
The given power is the peak power you will get at max (or rated, if
different) voltage.
Series DC motors and controllers are (generally) sold separately. The
motor is generally rated for continuous power. The controller doesn't
have to limit the input to continuous rated power. The motor can take
many times that power for 30 seconds (more than long enough to hurl you
away from a light.) I would suspect that even an ADC 8 inch motor can
make 200 kW for a matter of seconds (and Jim Husted will cringe :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks again Don,
I will build the Porsche regardless. I've stated that before.
If it's 50 miles or less, then I'll simply use it to tool around town and
drive one of my other cars for the long distance.
My frustration is more with the lack of suggestions to "newbies" like me
(not from you, at least you're polite :).
If there is a middle ground between lead and LiIon, such as Nimh or NiCd,
what are the possibilities with those, advantages, disadvantages?
Are there motors that are more efficient, controllers that can help with
efficiency?
These are the kinds of things I'm looking for.
Sorry, I'm just not the kind of guy who like to be told it can't be done.
Especially when I know it can.
I'm new to this, yes, but I'm not stupid.
I want to know what it would take to get me to where I "want" to be with the
car. It will obviously be cost prohibitive, but I can go from there making
adjustments and compromises to pare back the costs. If after all is said and
done, I'm left with the VoltsPorsche, then fine. At least I know I explored
my options.
As I said before, I'd even pay for someone to work with me on it like this.
I can't wait for the next person to tell me to search the list archive
because all will be answered there.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
This is a break though. If most the time you do not go a hundred miles this
can work and I am sure you would be happy with performance. You would have
to
give up the performance though when you went a hundred miles.
Build the Porsche to go 50 to miles and when you do have to go one hundred
miles pull a small trailer with a second pack. You could keep the trailer
pack
fully charged and use quick disconnects you would be ready to go in a few
minutes.
Pulling the trailer will take some energy. However such a large pack you
will also be drawing less from the batteries and they would provide more
amp
hours. It would work as long at you do not have to go 70 miles an hour.
Speed,
weight and hills really use up a lot of power.
What state are you in? Is the area flat?
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 4:17:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Thank you Don.
I appreciate the kind reply.
No I don't have to do 100 miles every day, but there are many days when I
do
drive more than 100 miles. Most days I don't drive at all, I work from
home.
But client sites vary in distance.
Anyway, I know the obstacles. Everyone is ALL too fast to point them out.
I'm looking for solutions to those obstacles.
Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hello Mike
It comes down to this. Your talking about the very limits of what an
electric vehicles can do. You want to go fast and you want to go far.
The current high prices for doing this are because of the low sales
volume.
Until mass production is done the prices will stay high. Also there are
different ICE vehicles for different uses. SUV for the family vehicles
Sports cars
pick up trucks it all depends what you want. They don't do everything
either
some go 300 miles on a tank and other go 500 miles on a tank. It is how
often and how fast the tank fills up on the EV that is different.
I suggested the AGM battery because they are sealed and are now being
produced at reasonable prices. They do cause limits in what an EV can do
with their
weight and to a lesser degree their size. They will power an EV fast or
Far
but you cannot do both with any lead acid battery.
Your goal of 100 miles is what I see as the biggest obstacle. Do you really
have to have 100 miles? I drive most of the time an hour a day the other 23
hours the vehicle is sitting. I have gone well over one hundred miles in a
day
but not in one trip. If you can charge where you are going that really
changes. It is the time a vehicle sits around that can be put to use.
I can only say when you do not have to stop in gas stations anymore that
the
value of that is worth having a second car or renting a car when you
really
have to. I will not be buying any new car until it plugs in. I have an ICE
vehicle but I don't drive it unless I have to.
If you drop the mileage you could make the Porsche more like a sports car
for a reasonable amount of money. If not your looking at the most expensive
batteries.
If your driving 100 miles one way every day your going to have to look at
the limitations or cost of what it would take to do this. If you only feel
you
need 100 miles is it really worth the expense to know it is there? This a
problem most ICE drivers have when laughing at the range of an EV. If most
of
them really track their actual use they would figure out they too can drive
by
just about every gas station.
A question you need to answer is what is the longest distance I really
must
travel before I can recharge. Take a look at where you go for the next
month
and write them down.
I agree with you I cannot believe it is not affordable to get the
technology
that is here now that would change our country for the better. It is until
people stop buying new cars as they are when things will change. I commend
you
for considering a hybrid this is a step in the right direction. The best
answer that would take care of everyone's needs would be a plug in hybrid.
This is a great list for help and their might be an electric club in your
area. You can do this and you will be a lot more proud of what you have
done. I
say make it fast but accept a lower range. I had a Solectria that was fun
and
if it was as fast as what you could build I would have never sold it. I am
also in the process of doing something closer to your project.
Don
1998 NiMH S-10
In a message dated 10/7/2006 2:05:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Great advice from Don Cameron.
> I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get some
> experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget is
but
> starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
sports car as
> your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
could
> would it be a good idea?
> Don
My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs
to
get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover
even
in resale.
Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
discouragement from a goal)
So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in
a
car. Am I missing something?
Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at
least
for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
happy
with that, and that's great for you!).
Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I
know
you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
the 914.
So ....
Here's what I want.
I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under
10
seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
assist
in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing
their
lifetime.
I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
every 3-5 years.
I want a heater! (A/C optional)
So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
$50,000
or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion
I
won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
need to get what I want out of this conversion.
Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
expectations in a vehicle.
And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone inquired on the cost of these? It has been a long time since I have
looked around the SAFT web site but I don't recall seeing these before.
_http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf_
(http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf)
Don
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Kip,
I noticed you're in Eugene. Suggest that as you
get to Grants Pass sometime, that you drop by and see
the Civic.
Any nickel chemistry needs careful monitoring
(heat) on recharge. I get stock Civvy performance out
of floodie lead acid, so the big deal is 1/3 of your
weight in batteries. Longevity? I'm going on 2 yrs.
and no appreciable sign of wear. T'sall about depth
of discharge, and watering each month.
As far as with NiCad, sorry, but I can't help much
there.
Best to you,
--- Kip C Anderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm looking for some design advice on batteries.
>
> First off, I have a strong inclination toward SAFT
> NiCd simply for the
> longevity reason. In a nutshell, I need some help
> figuring out whether
> these cells will provide the performance I desire
> and at what cost. The
> bottom line on performance and range desired is
> 20-30 miles and at least
> stock-like acceleration for highway merges.
> Anything in excess of that is
> considered gravy and may be fitted as space and
> budget permits.
>
> I look at it this way: The car may rot to the
> ground 10 years from now, but
> it would be nice to have a conversion worthy of
> transplanting to another
> chassis should the need arise.
>
> So assuming an unstripped chassis weight of around
> 2400 lbs (guessing 2050
> stripped):
>
> - How many cells should I use at what pack voltage?
> - Will I need a controller with current
> amplification and voltage stepdown
> to get good performance out the pack?
> - Where can I get the cells and at what cost?
>
> Obviously I know that my low rpm torque is going to
> be limited by the lesser
> of motor (probably a 9"), controller (hopefully a
> Z1k), or battery power,
> but I'd like to have a little headroom available
> from all three. A top
> speed of 80 mph would be plenty.
>
> 95% of the time, this car won't travel more than 10
> miles in a day and will
> typically only travel about 5 miles at less than
> 45mph. So the extended
> range driving does not necessarily have to include
> the higher performance.
>
> I also need to know if there are special design
> considerations I should take
> with respect to charging, heat, and expansion. In
> other words, can a
> charger like a PFC provide a safe charge without
> cooking the cells, and what
> cooling is necessary?
>
> Thanks!
> -
> Kip
> Eugene, OR
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael: I assume you've Googled "electric porsche"? That'll give an idea
of what others have done (and some sites list what they spent).
Unfortunately, if it were possible to build a 90MPH, 100 mile range, Porsche
in your budget (how much under $20K?) we'd all be driving them. <g>
Electro Automotive seems to have your car designed, and lists parts prices,
with your specs. If nothing else, it isn't expensive to buy their "build
sheet" and dream.
http://www.electroauto.com/gallery/porsche.shtml It does make a very nice
looking conversion. Now, I can't say I quite believe their 100 mile range in
the car, but it avoids the high cost and dangers of Li batts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> Thank you Don.
>
> I appreciate the kind reply.
>
> No I don't have to do 100 miles every day, but there are many days when I
do
> drive more than 100 miles. Most days I don't drive at all, I work from
home.
> But client sites vary in distance.
>
> Anyway, I know the obstacles. Everyone is ALL too fast to point them out.
>
> I'm looking for solutions to those obstacles.
>
> Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Micheal,
OK so you went and bought a 914 glider, have $20k to spend and want a 50mi
"useable" range. As others have said many times over you cannot do this with
todays technology. Period. If this frustrates you, your frustration is in
vain. No matter how much frustration it causes you, it will not change the
fact that you cannot do it within your constraints. If you don't like
people telling you cannot do something, maybe its because you can't.
I think almost everyone on this list wishes lithiums were cheaper, safer and
ready for us to use - but they are not.
What can you do? Change your constraints:
- Can you opportunity charge?
- Commute half way? Then take mass transit?
- Forget about using it to commute, just use it for errands and the weekend
fun car.
- Make a dragster out of it
Here are some options for your 914 and your $20k:
- use PbA, whether it be AGM, Gel or Wet - this is the best you can do today
for your $20k budget
- use AC from Metric Mind or Electroauto (although I think the AC55 is just
too big for a 914)
- or use a 9" DC and Zilla controller - very common setup
BUT, before you purchase anything more - do your research! Buying a glider
without even knowing the basics of EVs (e.g. what range is possible) was a
total set up for your frustration. Read the sites I listed in the previous
posting, look at other EVs on the net, look closely at other conversions,
learn about their pitfalls, struggles and lessons learned. Take your time
and do your homework. This is suppose to be fun, not frustrating.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: October 7, 2006 5:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Um, no. I'm asking for a car with less performance and range than a Metro.
Ok, fine, I know there are limitations everyone, I KNOW!
But for crying out loud, everytime I ask a question here, I'm simply told
what I can't do, and not what I can.
Very few are willing to offer suggestions.
Yeah, I know the technology is there.
Yeah I know it's expensive.
I'm not asking for a Tesla.
I didn't say 0-60 in 4 seconds.
I didn't say a top speed of 150 (or whatever ridiculous speed it gets) I
didn't say 250 miles on a charge.
I didn't expect a Tesla.
I was simply asking what I can do to get to where I want to be with the car
I have (or at least in the neighborhood).
Thanks again for the helpful response.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Ang
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
On 10/7/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thanks.
>
> I guess I'll slink quietly away from this list now.
>
> But I Appreciate the encouragement.
>
> Rather than posting suggestions on what I can do to get close to what
> I want, or part of the way to what I want, I get useless replies like
> the
one
> below.
>
> A few of you have been very helpful, and I thank you for that, but too
many
> want to discourage pushing boundaries rather than encourage.
>
What boundaries? You are asking if you could have a Corvette but only
wanted to for a Metro. And, you want to build it yourself. You could if
you ramp the production of the Corvette to hundreds of thousand units a
year. You are trying to push the manufacturing boundaries.
Yes, you could. You need cash, at least a 100 million dollars.
You knew when you started this discussion that the technology is already
here. Buy a Tesla.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
after reading all the emails on this topic, i am left with what seems to
me to be a quite simple solution. "we" build one. no more complaining
about "unobtainium". we just do it.
let me explain. i am a software engineer who primarily works with open
source software. in my world, when someone (or a small group) needs
something, the build it. then they do something amazing. they *give*
it to the community. it sounds selfless but it is not. they do so
hoping the someone else will need something similar or better. that
this new comer will improve their contribution and then themselves
contribute the improvement back to the community. as this happen over
time, you end up with an awesome, purpose-built, community-driven
"thing". for a complete (and brilliant) treatment of this topic see
eric raymond's "the cathedral and the bazaar."
http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/
also, this has been tried in the hardware world too. i use this
controller to play around. it is completely open, schematics, software
driver, etc. and they really work with the community
http://www.makingthings.com/makecontrollerkit/index.htm
my point is that their are a number of people on this list that could
join together to design and develop a controller--or more than one
controller or any number of other items. in fact, we could eventually
design and develop a complete line of products for a wide variety of
applications. these designs could be community maintained. of course,
any manufacturer (perhaps some of us) could use these designs to mass
produce components and sell them. this would be an awesome step forward
for us. we get designs *exactly* as we want. and, manufacturers get to
make money by providing components built better than the average
hobbyist could build them. since they do not have to have huge R&D
budget we should get even lower prices.
okay, i'm back on planet earth. but seriously...might this (or
something like it) not work?
kind regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know where I can get 18 NiMH batteries the form factor of the
Rav4 or GM EV1 or the Ford Ranger. Panasonic is perfered but I'll take what
I can get. I'd also be interested in Delphi 8 volt batteries but most of
them are bad now in the used catagory. I have about 50 of them that need to
be revived. I just don't have the process down yet. I do have a
powersupply that can put fifty amps into an 8v Delphi battery. I know about
EV bones but I was hoping for a wrecked Ranger or Rav4. Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please remove my address from the ev list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the word "range" is a poor word to use. It gets
misinterpreted by a lot of people. I think this is the closest
definition of range that I could find in the context of electric cars:
The distance that can be covered by an aircraft, ship, or other
vehicle, carrying a normal load without refueling.
So, one way, no return trip. A 100 mile range is in a straight line
until the car dies without power. NOT both ways and calling it a 50
mile range. That would be more like a "50 mile range of operation",
which is still not very clear. I'm guessing this has been some of
the recent confusion about range, but that's just a guess.
Ian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am seriously considering buying this kit: http://www.e-volks.com/
about2.html, some decent but cheap beetle/vw/porsche, and some T105s
or Yellow Tops, and brake upgrades.
It seems like that whole line of cars is fairly easy to do these
budget electric conversions on, as they are light, have common
replacement parts, are light, and are cheap. Are any of these cars
going to need less or no suspension work?
Also, I thought I knew what kind of driving distances this sort of
setup would that would get me, but the recent range discussions have
me confused and wondering if this would do as well as I thought.
Does anyone have a similar setup that they would comment on as far as
both how many miles this could travel in a straight line in normal
use and whether they would do this again? What are some of the
larger specifics to these cars to think about that may not be obvious
to the beginner?
I'll stop now before I have a huge list of questions.
Thanks, Ian
--- End Message ---
