EV Digest 5983
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Group 31 AGMs
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Michaela EV Disappointment
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Vacuum Reservoir
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NiMH 1.2V 500 Ah floodies
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) New to the group.
by Nathaniel Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Michaela EV Disappointment
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Truck tailgate up vs down, Was=> Re: Ranger doner
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: LED brakelights
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Panasonic12v NiMH batteries/ Delphi 8volts also.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) $25,000 Performance Car
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: LED brakelights
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC and DC together?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
This is what I have done with the Odyssey batteries. You can add to it for
the other batteries that you are interested in.
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Freidberg
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 11:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Group 31 AGMs
It's time to purchase a new battery pack for the Geo
EV. That would be at least one dozen group 31 AGMs.
The following brands which appear to offer an AGM
battery of that size are under consideration:
-Concorde
-Deka
-Mk Battery
-Trojan
-Hawker Odyssey
I think this post boils down to "Which one should I
buy?" and "Does it matter?"
Who has the good customer service reputation?
The Geo application has modest peak power demands of
<500 amps. I'll likely be bulk and opportunity
charging with a Russco and finish charging with
Soneils, one per batt.
The overseas made AGMs that are in the Geo now have
not worked out well. At least some of them were
venting right out of the box prior to even putting a
charge on them and continued to do so in service. This
was evidenced by how stinky they were 24/7 (not
because of overcharging). The customer service was
good though and a full refund under warranty wasn't
hard to secure so that was appreciated.
Mark Freidberg
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela,
Mitsubishi has announced 4 EV models for 2008. This was mentioned on the
GreenCarCongress.com web site earlier this year.
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 5:26 PM
To: Michael Trefry
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hmm .. sounds like me about 1 year ago. I am now calmer, more disappointed
I have to confess though I am hoping for commercial EVs to be available
soon (and in a range I can afford). Most of the current 'home brew' EVs
are no better than they were in the 90s with no commercial entities
willing to invest into newer technologies or even gimmicks. My truck is
heavy with floodies, has neither power steering nor regenerative braking
or a/c, the batteries require more service than I would ever be willing to
provide to its ICE counterpart, the range is limited and I will have to
provide all maintenance and service myself as no garage or repair shop is
willing to touch my truck.
IN the summer, I have to deal with overheating controllers while the sweat
burns my eyes, in the winter I have to monitor the battery heaters to keep
at least some juice available for driving.
I like my truck. It kind of does what it is supposed to do. On the other
hand, I could have that with a horse carriage or a steam engine. But I am
of course telling everybody the 'advantages' of driving electric - not
necessarily in a 'home brew' though. And I am a bit envious when my
husband pulls into the driveway, his a/c humming, leisurely moving the
steering wheel with just one finger.
No - I am not going to learn to weld and get myself equipped with all the
metal working tools just to build myself some kind of air conditioning.
And I most certainly will not invest almost 20K in a set of batteries. If
I would have known what I know now (bad preparation or I may have been a
little to naive), I would not have started EVing. For the money I spent I
could have easily gotten a nice vehicle and lots of tanks full of gas.
I'd rather would have planted a few trees on our ranch to compensate for
the pollution I would be causing with an ICE.
So - I am waiting a few more months if somebody comes up with better
(cheaper?) batteries or other technology that makes life easier. Should
nothing happen, I will part with my EV, put it on EBay (Great EV, 60 Miles
range, NEVER BUY GAS AGAIN) and get myself a nice little 6 cylinder Chevy
Pickup. With power steering, a/c and service contract.
Just my two cents.
Michaela
> My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra costs
> to
> get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that I'm
> willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
>
> I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on this,
> possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer living,
> maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year old
> Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
> can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never recover
> even
> in resale.
>
> Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
> discouragement from a goal)
>
> So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed with
> the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
>
> I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better batteries in
> a
> car. Am I missing something?
>
> Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For the
> most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at
> least
> for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by next
> week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see how
> people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
> happy
> with that, and that's great for you!).
>
> Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance that
> others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions using
> their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I
> know
> you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches the
> claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them being
> the 914.
>
> So ....
>
> Here's what I want.
>
> I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in under
> 10
> seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
> I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
> assist
> in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
> I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
> decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing their
> lifetime.
> I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or changing
> every 3-5 years.
> I want a heater! (A/C optional)
>
> So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
>
> And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
> $50,000
> or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a conversion
> I
> won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list, put
> the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
>
> I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I would
> need to get what I want out of this conversion.
>
> Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
>
> I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here with
> unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I can't
> believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
> expectations in a vehicle.
>
> And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
>
>
> Mike
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just an example of an open source hardware project.
A stand alone programmable fuel injection system. In the past, an
aftermarket system was easily $1,000+.
You can convert any vehicle to fuel injection using this system and
have full control of it:
The main page:
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
Support board:
http://www.msefi.com/
FAQ:
http://www.megasquirt.info/
A kit cost ~$250 or less. An already built system can be had for $400 or less.
There are several businesses selling parts, kits, and complete units and more:
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm#group
Those aftermarket $1000+ kits? They are still around:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/ECUarticle.php
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am new to this list, days actually, so I hope this isn't a silly
comment/question. Is anyone here familiar with the OSMC project?
Official home of the OSMC Project
OSMC Project information
I realize this is a DC controller of a much smaller capacity, but it does
show the success of specificly an open source motor controller. You can
download schematics and specs and build yourself, buy parts kits, or even
assembled products.
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just an example of an open source
hardware project.
A stand alone programmable fuel injection system. In the past, an
aftermarket system was easily $1,000+.
You can convert any vehicle to fuel injection using this system and
have full control of it:
The main page:
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
Support board:
http://www.msefi.com/
FAQ:
http://www.megasquirt.info/
A kit cost ~$250 or less. An already built system can be had for $400 or less.
There are several businesses selling parts, kits, and complete units and more:
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm#group
Those aftermarket $1000+ kits? They are still around:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/ECUarticle.php
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure why those links didn't work but here they are again.
Official home of the OSMC Project: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osmc/
OSMC Project information: http://www.robotpower.com/osmc_info/
---
Thanks,
Jim
Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am new to this list, days actually, so
I hope this isn't a silly comment/question. Is anyone here familiar with the
OSMC project?
Official home of the OSMC Project
OSMC Project information
I realize this is a DC controller of a much smaller capacity, but it does show
the success of specificly an open source motor controller. You can download
schematics and specs and build yourself, buy parts kits, or even assembled
products.
Ryan Stotts wrote: Just an example of an open source hardware project.
A stand alone programmable fuel injection system. In the past, an
aftermarket system was easily $1,000+.
You can convert any vehicle to fuel injection using this system and
have full control of it:
The main page:
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
Support board:
http://www.msefi.com/
FAQ:
http://www.megasquirt.info/
A kit cost ~$250 or less. An already built system can be had for $400 or less.
There are several businesses selling parts, kits, and complete units and more:
http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm#group
Those aftermarket $1000+ kits? They are still around:
http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/ECUarticle.php
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela
There is another path to take. There are used factory electric vehicles.
Have you taken a look at EVbones web site? You can buy a GM made S-10 they have
Air heat power steering keep up with traffic and do 70 miles an hour. When you
look at what you get it is a bargain for around 20,000 with NiMH batteries.
Their are electric Rangers as well. I would watch what you pay for it if it
still has the 8 volt batteries as they are going to fail. You could check
with Blue Sky Motors but I don't think they have any more NiMH trucks.
Don't hold me to the above prices I have no connection to the above
companies.
If anyone is in Oregon or close to Portland I would go out of my way to help
you or sell you one of mine. I have driven many miles and I highly recommend
these and if you don't mind a smaller car the Solectria is not bad either.
They are less money but the factory trucks are about as close to an ICE
vehicle replacement that most people do even know they are in an electric
vehicle
unless I tell them.
Don
In a message dated 10/7/2006 10:31:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 5:26 PM
To: Michael Trefry
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
Hmm .. sounds like me about 1 year ago. I am now calmer, more disappointed
I have to confess though I am hoping for commercial EVs to be available
soon (and in a range I can afford). Most of the current 'home brew' EVs
are no better than they were in the 90s with no commercial entities
willing to invest into newer technologies or even gimmicks. My truck is
heavy with floodies, has neither power steering nor regenerative braking
or a/c, the batteries require more service than I would ever be willing to
provide to its ICE counterpart, the range is limited and I will have to
provide all maintenance and service myself as no garage or repair shop is
willing to touch my truck.
IN the summer, I have to deal with overheating controllers while the sweat
burns my eyes, in the winter I have to monitor the battery heaters to keep
at least some juice available for driving.
I like my truck. It kind of does what it is supposed to do. On the other
hand, I could have that with a horse carriage or a steam engine. But I am
of course telling everybody the 'advantages' of driving electric - not
necessarily in a 'home brew' though. And I am a bit envious when my
husband pulls into the driveway, his a/c humming, leisurely moving the
steering wheel with just one finger.
No - I am not going to learn to weld and get myself equipped with all the
metal working tools just to build myself some kind of air conditioning.
And I most certainly will not invest almost 20K in a set of batteries. If
I would have known what I know now (bad preparation or I may have been a
little to naive), I would not have started EVing. For the money I spent I
could have easily gotten a nice vehicle and lots of tanks full of gas.
I'd rather would have planted a few trees on our ranch to compensate for
the pollution I would be causing with an ICE.
So - I am waiting a few more months if somebody comes up with better
(cheaper?) batteries or other technology that makes life easier. Should
nothing happen, I will part with my EV, put it on EBay (Great EV, 60 Miles
range, NEVER BUY GAS AGAIN) and get myself a nice little 6 cylinder Chevy
Pickup. With power steering, a/c and service contract.
Just my two cents.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Oct 2006 at 21:33, John wrote:
> How do folks create vacuum reservoirs that actually hold a vacuum?
You're going to laugh ...
But I made one years ago by soldering two large soup cans together at the
open ends. I drilled a hole in one end of the "tube" and soldered a barbed
fitting into it. After I painted it ... well, OK, even then it still looked
like two soup cans stuck together. But it worked!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 3 Oct 2006 at 22:00, Lock Hughes wrote:
> These are pretty large NiMH cells aren't they? Just thought some here
> might be interested.
I expect that you'll have no problems (other than technical) with these if
you're a hobbyist, and you're reasonably circumspect.
However, I suspect that the manufacturer hasn't paid Ovonics a license fee.
Ovonics likes to keep a pretty tight grip on NiMH production, and they don't
want anyone producing EV-size modules, so it's very unlikely that they will
license this company to make them legally. If you were to try selling
vehicles fitted with these batteries, you might find Ovonics breathing down
your neck (and reaching into your wallet for some damages).
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been in the OSMC group for 5 years as of this month. Awesome
project. That hardware helped make us National Champions a couple of
times.
If an AC system was tackled with the same fervor we'd be all set. But
when I tried to get the OSMC guys to really go for a 3 phase system it
just didn't take. So I went off and learned how to rebuild them as a
teaching aid to designing them.
Thanks for the link to the fuel injection system. I've always wanted
to retrofit a system to my old wagon.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jim Fritz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I am new to this list, days actually, so I hope this isn't a silly
comment/question. Is anyone here familiar with the OSMC project?
>
> Official home of the OSMC Project
> OSMC Project information
>
> I realize this is a DC controller of a much smaller capacity, but
it does show the success of specificly an open source motor
controller. You can download schematics and specs and build yourself,
buy parts kits, or even assembled products.
>
> Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just an example of an open
source hardware project.
>
> A stand alone programmable fuel injection system. In the past, an
> aftermarket system was easily $1,000+.
>
> You can convert any vehicle to fuel injection using this system and
> have full control of it:
>
> The main page:
>
> http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
>
> Support board:
>
> http://www.msefi.com/
>
> FAQ:
>
> http://www.megasquirt.info/
>
> A kit cost ~$250 or less. An already built system can be had for
$400 or less.
>
> There are several businesses selling parts, kits, and complete units
and more:
>
> http://www.megamanual.com/v22manual/mintro.htm#group
>
>
> Those aftermarket $1000+ kits? They are still around:
>
> http://www.turbomustangs.com/techarticles/ECUarticle.php
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone. I'm new here and exploring the possibilities of going
electric. I have noticed though that most every electric vehicle I've
seen or heard is a little tight for passenger room. I'm 6'3" and I would
prefer to have room for my family as well. Are there any kits or
conversions that work like this right now? This isn't going to happen in
the next few months, so any future looking suggestions would also be
appreciated. Thanks for any comments in advance.
--
Nathaniel Olsen
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There is another path to take. There are used factory electric
vehicles.
> Have you taken a look at EVbones web site? You can buy a GM made
S-10 they have
> Air heat power steering keep up with traffic and do 70 miles an
hour. When you
> look at what you get it is a bargain for around 20,000 with NiMH
batteries.
>
Yup - that's your best bet right now. I leased a NiMH Ranger from 2000
to 2003, but when Ford caved in and let past leasees buy one, I got a
PbA version. I do miss the extra range of the NiMHs, but glad I get
all the conveniences of a comparable ICE version!
One drawback is winter weather will shrink my range to less than my
commute - I'll have to trade it for the RAV4 (ICE) my wife uses. I've
gone 8K miles so far, but if these act like "new" lead-acid batteries,
they will only survive a couple more years at most [those NiMHs would
have been nice]. Luckily, other Ranger drivers have figured out how to
use 12V SLAs for replacements. Unluckily, I have no equipment to move
a ton of batteries out of and back into the bottom of the truck.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stop it allright, fellows.
The links to actual windtunnel test data
as well as professional car manufacturers
technical gurus' statements have already been
provided and the conclusion was clear, so
please read those posts instead of
continuing discussing opinions.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 9:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Truck tailgate up vs down, Was=> Re: Ranger doner
Except we are talking about "Mythbusters". It's not science, it's
entertainment. They hardly ever let science get in the way of the show
and almost never use "Good" science.
> Two different drivers in two different trucks, same make and model
> though. One road test was not very scientific. The should have repeated
> the test several times. Switching drivers and switching which truck had
> the tailgate up or down. I have not statistical experience but I don't
> think that one data point is enough to form more than a guess--certainly
> not a conclusion.
>
> Mike Ellis wrote:
>
>> Not that I'm arguing that they got it right, but what about the actual
>> road test comparison did you object to?
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>> On 9/30/06, The Terminator <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Mythbusters are Mythcreators on a lot of subjects since they have a
>>> long
>>> way to go to learn the scientific method.
>>> Just my bubble burst worth.
>>> Jimmy
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
My dash has a regulator to control the dash lights
brightness. I usually leave that a tad below max,
so the lights live an eternity.
This is the same regulator that switches the interior
light on with the doors closed, when the regulator
is moved to the max position.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:54 AM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: LED brakelights
So in rush hour, bumber to bumper traffic, using the brakes alot, I
could add 1 mile of range to my 40 mile range. I'll take it!!
Also, there are the running light elements in each tail light bulb
that would be changed when the brake lights are changed. More savings.
Then there are the marker lights, front turn signal/running lights and
dash lights too. Still more savings.
So I could easily double your estimate in current savings with all of
the mentioned bulbs being swapped for led's. Many of them are on all
of the time whenever the headlights are on. So there are savings each
time I drive at night. LED headlights would be interesting.
I can tell you I'm sick of my dash lights croaking every couple
thousand miles. That alone would be worth it. Changing those requires
the entire dash bezel that surrounds all of the ducts and dash to be
removed. Then the guage set has to be removed. Done it twice.
Thanks for the math Cor, now I'm even more motivated to change out to
led's.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Normal brake light is 12V 21W
> so with DC/DC inefficiencies the 65W can easily
> draw more than 80W.
>
> Just how often are you braking?
> I think that when I add all the time in my 20 - 25 min
> commute that I am actually sitting on the brake, it
> will total around 2 - 3 min (on level road I do not brake
> once stopped, on slight upramp I keep the accelerator
> a tiny bit depressed to hold the vehicle with an
> unmeasurable amount of current from the pack.)
> Just as unmeasurable as the brake light consumption:
> If you brake for 3 min that will cost you 1/20 (3min/60min)
> times the power consumption (=90W) or about 5Wh.
> If your vehicle is well aligned and needs 200Wh/mi this
> means that the brake lights cost you 1/40 mile range.
> I do not think those 120 feet makes a real difference
> that is so much of a cencern that you should worry
> about them.
> If you drive 1 mph less fast or take off 1/2 second slower
> then you are going to gain much more range.
> Better focus on tire rolling resistance, bearing quality,
> brake drag, aerodynamics and all those other big energy
> consumers, before paying attention to the issues below the
> 0.1% line.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:35 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: LED brakelights
>
>
> The emeter shows a drop of .3 amps when I step on the brake pedal. With
> out more accuracy it could be .21 amps at 300v. 60w is close to 3 brake
> lamp elements IIRC.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > At 09:20 PM 10/5/2006, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > >At 08:55 PM 10/5/2006, Mike Phillips wrote:
> > >>I'm wanting to replace my 3 brake light bulbs as they pull .3 amps
> > from
> > >>the 300v pack thru the dc-dc. That's just a plain waste. Then there
> > are
> > >>the 2 running light elements as well.
> > >
> > >Wow, you must have BRIGHT brake lights. 900W of power!
> > >
> > >Somehow I don't think your brake lights are pulling 3A out of a 300v
> > pack.
> >
> > Oops, now I see the decimal point.
> > I still doubt your brake lights are pulling 90W of power!
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Never mind. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: Panasonic12v NiMH batteries/ Delphi 8volts also.
> $588 each on Ebay for the Rav4 Nimh batts.
>
> Mike
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know where I can get 18 NiMH batteries the form factor
> of the
> > Rav4 or GM EV1 or the Ford Ranger. Panasonic is perfered but I'll
> take what
> > I can get. I'd also be interested in Delphi 8 volt batteries but
> most of
> > them are bad now in the used catagory. I have about 50 of them that
> need to
> > be revived. I just don't have the process down yet. I do have a
> > powersupply that can put fifty amps into an 8v Delphi battery. I
> know about
> > EV bones but I was hoping for a wrecked Ranger or Rav4. Lawrence
> Rhodes....
> >
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Being the entrepeneur that I am, I'm always interesting in creating
solutions to problems and limitations, find faster, easier, cheaper ways.
No question in my mind, batteries are Problem Number One.
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular the
ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah,
and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5 times as much
battery capacity than with AGM for the same weight.
Lets make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea. For 120v, that would be $2,400.
But these cells only do 90amps, which using 4 parallel would be 360amps.
So we up the voltage to 480v using 40 12v blocks. The battery pack now
costs $9,600, but we now have the ability to go very fast and very far.
Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v and 360amps =
172Kw, do regen and braking.
That looks like a AC55, which costs $1,500. But it needs a controller
to dish out that power. Well, I can build one and sell it for $5,000.
So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and controller =
$16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91 Corvette.
This leaves us $4,000 left for the other stuff, and we have our very
fast, very far electric sports car for $25,000.
I'm taking orders for all of you that say you'd buy it if you could,
and I'm not kidding one bit.
Cheers,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
It's a lot better to use the 7.6mm x 7.6 mm 4-pin flat pack. It's a far
superior thermal design over the T1-3/4 types.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/54.pdf
It's still only rated at 20ma, same as the T1-3/4 size. The viewing
angle is wider, and the brightness lower (not necessarily an advantage
for a taillight). The 4-lead package would keep it more stable on the PC
board.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Do you really think it would cost more to buy one big AC motor than a
smaller AC motor, plus a DC motor, plus some way to couple them together,
plus figuring out how to make them work together, plus etc?
Seems to me that the Larger AC motor might be cheaper in the long run,
and certainly easier... and probably more efficient.
A hybrid AC/DC system is a compromise; something you do when you can't
get the characteristics you want from just AC or DC alone.
AC systems tend to be more expensive per HP, and require high voltage
battery packs even to get modest amounts of HP. But they are more
efficient, sophisticated, work well at high rpm, and have more features
(like regen).
DC systems tend to be just the opposite; they are cheaper, simpler, work
well with lower voltage packs, and are good for large peak HP and at low
rpm. But you don't get regen, and performance usually falls off rapidly
at high rpm.
A hybrid could be an expedient solution, given the limitations of the
parts generally available. For example, you might start with a big
series DC motor and contactor controller. It is inexpensive and easy to
build, allows a cheap low-voltage pack of flooded golf cart batteries,
and provides impressive low-speed accelleration.
But you want more; more efficiency, smoother control, regen... You could
dump this entire DC system (batteries, charger, motor, controller),
and start over with a powerful AC drive; but that's expensive. Instead,
you could *add* a small AC motor and inverter. The AC motor just has to
deliver your cruising power (not the peak), so it can be 1/4th the size,
and thus much cheaper. It can work with your low pack voltage. It
provides smooth throttle response, and adds regen.
Yes, you would have to figure out a way to couple the motors together.
But this is a straightforward mechanical problem, no harder than couping
the motor to an existing transmission.
Yes, you would have to coordinate their throttles. The best way to do
this would be some sort of controller that takes the driver's
accellerator pedal input, and controls the DC and AC systems
independently to deliver the amount of torque the driver requests. If
the DC system is just a contactor controller, you might switch it up a
step at the same instant that you command the AC drive to back off by
the same amount of torque. The mass of the system is so large that the
motors won't have time to change speeds during the fraction of a second
it takes the AC and DC systems to respond to the change.
For example, you're driving with DC motor off and the AC producing 99
ft.lbs of torque. You step down a little harder. The accellerator
controller knows that at present rpm, the DC motor will produce 100
ft.lbs torque if switched on. So it simultaneously closes the DC "go"
contactor, and releases the throttle input to the AC drive. In 0.01
second, the DC motor goes from 0 to 100 ft.lbs of torque. The AC drive
might be designed so releasing the throttle takes 0.02 second for its
torque to fall to zero. But the motors only change speed by 10 rpm in
the 0.01 second that both are operating at 100+99 ft.lbs of torque. This
would be felt as a slight bump, like an automatic transmission shifting
gears.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Citroen Saxo has 120V100Ah Saft and can go to 55mph max speed in far less
than 60 seconds :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:56 AM
Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> > If there is a middle ground between lead and LiIon, such as Nimh or
NiCd,
> > what are the possibilities with those, advantages, disadvantages?
>
> Unfortunately the patent on NiMH batteries is owned by an oil company and
> a major portion of their licensing agreement is that nobody can build
> batteries large enough for an EV. They temporarily allowed Panasonic to
> make EV size modules for OEM cars to meet California's ZEV mandate, but
> when CA caved in and dropped the mandate, there went the batteries.
> Panasonic is now only allowed to make replacement modules for existing OEM
> NiMH EVs as long as their initial warranty lasts, then no more.
>
> Saft makes EV size batteries. A 120V pack will run you about $15,000, it
> would have good range, but very low performance. Perhaps 20-30 hp. In a
> 914 your 0-60 would be somewhere around 60 seconds.
>
> >
> > Are there motors that are more efficient, controllers that can help with
> > efficiency?
>
> DC motors are already 85-90% efficient and the controllers are in the high
> 90s. AC motors might eke out 4-5% better system efficiency, maybe.
> The BEST motors I've ever seen are used on Solar racers, system efficiency
> peaks at around 96%.
> The difference between 85 and 96% will give you perhaps 13% more range,
> but would probably cost you over $100,000 more.
>
> >
> > These are the kinds of things I'm looking for.
>
> All of the obstacles are solveable, individually. Solving all of them at
> once, is not. Not with todays technology.
>
> >
> > Sorry, I'm just not the kind of guy who like to be told it can't be
done.
> > Especially when I know it can.
>
> Great, when you figure out how to do it, let us know. I'd spend $20,000
> in a heart beat on a vehicle that meets all of your specs. Heck, I might
> even be willing to spend it on a vehicle that met all of the specs except
> acceleration and I'd be happy with 0-60 in 20 seconds.
>
> >
> > I'm new to this, yes, but I'm not stupid.
> >
> > I want to know what it would take to get me to where I "want" to be with
> > the
> > car. It will obviously be cost prohibitive, but I can go from there
making
> > adjustments and compromises to pare back the costs. If after all is said
> > and
> > done, I'm left with the VoltsPorsche, then fine. At least I know I
> > explored
> > my options.
> >
> > As I said before, I'd even pay for someone to work with me on it like
> > this.
> >
> >
> > I can't wait for the next person to tell me to search the list archive
> > because all will be answered there.
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 7:47 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> >
> >
> > Hello Mike
> >
> > This is a break though. If most the time you do not go a hundred miles
> > this
> >
> > can work and I am sure you would be happy with performance. You would
have
> > to
> > give up the performance though when you went a hundred miles.
> >
> > Build the Porsche to go 50 to miles and when you do have to go one
> > hundred
> > miles pull a small trailer with a second pack. You could keep the
trailer
> > pack
> > fully charged and use quick disconnects you would be ready to go in a
few
> > minutes.
> >
> > Pulling the trailer will take some energy. However such a large pack
you
> > will also be drawing less from the batteries and they would provide
more
> > amp
> > hours. It would work as long at you do not have to go 70 miles an hour.
> > Speed,
> > weight and hills really use up a lot of power.
> >
> > What state are you in? Is the area flat?
> >
> > Don
> >
> > In a message dated 10/7/2006 4:17:16 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > Thank you Don.
> >
> > I appreciate the kind reply.
> >
> > No I don't have to do 100 miles every day, but there are many days when
I
> > do
> > drive more than 100 miles. Most days I don't drive at all, I work from
> > home.
> > But client sites vary in distance.
> >
> > Anyway, I know the obstacles. Everyone is ALL too fast to point them
out.
> >
> > I'm looking for solutions to those obstacles.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 6:10 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
> >
> >
> > Hello Mike
> >
> > It comes down to this. Your talking about the very limits of what an
> > electric vehicles can do. You want to go fast and you want to go far.
> >
> > The current high prices for doing this are because of the low sales
> > volume.
> >
> > Until mass production is done the prices will stay high. Also there
are
> > different ICE vehicles for different uses. SUV for the family vehicles
> > Sports cars
> > pick up trucks it all depends what you want. They don't do everything
> > either
> > some go 300 miles on a tank and other go 500 miles on a tank. It is
how
> > often and how fast the tank fills up on the EV that is different.
> >
> > I suggested the AGM battery because they are sealed and are now being
> > produced at reasonable prices. They do cause limits in what an EV can
do
> > with their
> > weight and to a lesser degree their size. They will power an EV fast or
> > Far
> >
> > but you cannot do both with any lead acid battery.
> >
> > Your goal of 100 miles is what I see as the biggest obstacle. Do you
> > really
> >
> > have to have 100 miles? I drive most of the time an hour a day the
other
> > 23
> >
> > hours the vehicle is sitting. I have gone well over one hundred miles
in
> > a
> > day
> > but not in one trip. If you can charge where you are going that really
> > changes. It is the time a vehicle sits around that can be put to use.
> >
> > I can only say when you do not have to stop in gas stations anymore
that
> > the
> > value of that is worth having a second car or renting a car when you
> > really
> >
> > have to. I will not be buying any new car until it plugs in. I have an
> > ICE
> >
> > vehicle but I don't drive it unless I have to.
> >
> > If you drop the mileage you could make the Porsche more like a sports
car
> >
> > for a reasonable amount of money. If not your looking at the most
> > expensive
> >
> > batteries.
> >
> > If your driving 100 miles one way every day your going to have to look
at
> > the limitations or cost of what it would take to do this. If you only
> > feel
> > you
> > need 100 miles is it really worth the expense to know it is there? This
a
> > problem most ICE drivers have when laughing at the range of an EV. If
> > most
> > of
> > them really track their actual use they would figure out they too can
> > drive
> > by
> > just about every gas station.
> >
> > A question you need to answer is what is the longest distance I really
> > must
> >
> > travel before I can recharge. Take a look at where you go for the next
> > month
> > and write them down.
> >
> > I agree with you I cannot believe it is not affordable to get the
> > technology
> > that is here now that would change our country for the better. It is
> > until
> >
> > people stop buying new cars as they are when things will change. I
> > commend
> > you
> > for considering a hybrid this is a step in the right direction. The
best
> > answer that would take care of everyone's needs would be a plug in
> > hybrid.
> >
> >
> > This is a great list for help and their might be an electric club in
your
> > area. You can do this and you will be a lot more proud of what you have
> > done. I
> > say make it fast but accept a lower range. I had a Solectria that was
fun
> > and
> > if it was as fast as what you could build I would have never sold it.
I
> > am
> >
> > also in the process of doing something closer to your project.
> >
> > Don
> > 1998 NiMH S-10
> >
> > In a message dated 10/7/2006 2:05:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> >> Great advice from Don Cameron.
> >
> >> I think your first EV should be with AGM batteries so you can get
some
> >
> >> experience of real world results. You have not said what your budget
> >> is
> > but
> >> starting with the Valence battery is like buying a 100,000 dollar
> > sports car as
> >> your first vehicle. It comes down to what one can pay and even if one
> > could
> >> would it be a good idea?
> >
> >> Don
> >
> > My budget is flexible enough that I'm willing to put in some extra
costs
> > to
> > get the range and performance I'm looking for, but not so much that
I'm
> > willing to spend more than it would cost me to buy a brand new Hybrid.
> >
> > I'd say that all-in all, I don't want to spend more than $20,000 on
> > this,
> > possibly flexible up to $25,000 if I can get a lighter, longer
living,
> > maintenance free, more powerful battery. I am working with a 35 year
old
> > Porsche. If I can make it what I want it would be worth it to me. If I
> > can't, I'll be throwing money away on something that I'll never
recover
> > even
> > in resale.
> >
> > Sorry, but here comes another rant. (nothing sets me off more than
> > discouragement from a goal)
> >
> > So why would you suggest AGM batteries? I know I will be disappointed
> > with
> > the results. Shouldn't we be pushing the technology forward?
> >
> > I can't imagine why it would not be a good idea to put better
batteries
> > in
> > a
> > car. Am I missing something?
> >
> > Others have suggested that I check out various sites, and I have. For
> > the
> > most part, the conversions on evalbum.com are terribly inadequate (at
> > least
> > for me). It's funny to say that your car can go from 0-60 sometime by
> > next
> > week, but it's not a great sales pitch for conversions. I don't see
how
> > people are satisfied with a 25 mile range (I know that some of you are
> > happy
> > with that, and that's great for you!).
> >
> > Evparts.com and electroauto.com kits promise ranges and performance
that
> > others say are unlikely, and by looking at real-world conversions
using
> > their kits, the reality doesn't line up with the claims. Sorry guys, I
> > know
> > you do great work, but I haven't seen a single conversion that matches
> > the
> > claims you put forward, and I've looked at hundreds, several of them
> > being
> > the 914.
> >
> > So ....
> >
> > Here's what I want.
> >
> > I want a reliable, strong motor capable of bringing me from 0-60 in
> > under
> > 10
> > seconds and reach a top speed of at least 90 MPH.
> > I would like regenerative braking, not only for regeneration, but to
> > assist
> > in slowing the car. The manual brakes on this thing scare me.
> > I want to be able to go at least 100 miles on a single charge and at a
> > decent speed (say 65mph) without damaging the batteries, or reducing
> > their
> > lifetime.
> > I want batteries that I don't have to worry about watering, or
changing
> > every 3-5 years.
> > I want a heater! (A/C optional)
> >
> > So what would it take to do this with a Porsche 914?
> >
> > And if someone tells me it can't be done, or that it's going to cost
> > $50,000
> > or more, or that I should start by throwing away ^$10,000 on a
> > conversion
> > I
> > won't be happy with, I'll probably quietly slink away from this list,
> > put
> > the Porsche up for sale and buy a stinkin' Prius.
> >
> > I'll even pay someone to detail the specs for me on exactly what I
would
> > need to get what I want out of this conversion.
> >
> > Thanks to all who have been helpful and encouraging.
> >
> > I know most of you are thinking that I'm just a newbie coming here
with
> > unrealistic expectations, but with the state of technology today, I
> > can't
> > believe this can't be affordable achieved. These are very reasonable
> > expectations in a vehicle.
> >
> > And to those who say EV's aren't for everyone ... Isn't that the goal?
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
