EV Digest 5984
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lithium-ion batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LED brakelights
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Comparator circuit 1.0 for nicad pack monitoring
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Group 31 AGMs
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New to the group.
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New to the group.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Michaela EV Disappointment
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Saft Lithium-ion Module batteries
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: $25,000 Performance Car
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) cost effetive, long range EV's, bitching ,Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LED brakelights
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Michaela EV Disappointment
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mark McCurdy wrote:
hehe, need a GIF or JPG posted somewhere, can't make heads or tails of
this
You need to set your email program to display plain text, and use a
fixed width font like Courier or Fixedsys. The easiest way on a Windows
machine is to copy the email, and paste it into Notepad or Wordpad;
these default to a fixed width font.
We can't post GIF or JPG files on the EV list; so ASCII is the default
method that everyone can read (if they bother), and that will
automatically get archived without losing the links to some site that
may not be around in the future.
_________________________
| D1 | |
| 6.8v _|_/ U1 > R2
| zener //_\ __|\|__ > 2.2k
+__|__ | | |/| | >
12v ___ A |___| |___| B
- | | | U2 | |
| > |__|/|__| _|_/ D2
| R3 > R1 |\| //_\ 6.8v
| 100 > 2.2k | zener
|__/\/\___|_______________|
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
forget surplus for li-ion it's not a good idea !
you need date code new batteries only !
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:59 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries
>
> > Can anyone direct me to a source for the 3.7 volt rechargable Li-ion
> > batteries. These are the cells they use in laptop computers. I have been
> > driving a converted VW Rabbitt for 16 years and I am done buying any
> > more lead-acid batteries.I figure I need about 6,000 of these cells. I
> > have found them retail for about $6 each but my price range is more like
> > $0.20/ each.
>
> Hmm, I'm not sure you can even buy dead ones for that price. THe best
> prices I've seen are at surplus stores like American Science and SUrplus:
> http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm?subsection=13
> They run $1 a pack, well 5 for $4.95
> >
> > I see they are using these in the Tesla, and I'm sure I'm not the first
> > one to do this. I saw them in the September issue of "Current EVents"
> > added to the back of a Prius. Also AC Propulsion is offering a converted
> > Scion with a Li-ion battery pack. I would like to track down the place
> > in China or Taiwan that actually manufactures these cells.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I suppose it may work but the question is do you agree to let car makers
take "our work" and making profits ?
We can think it's not going to happen soon but later ? once all is debuged
and working find...
I know i'm already far on this projet suposition but i would ask to have a
clause that clearly state than
this community work is freely usable by individual and EV only companies !
for
others (ICE car makers) they have to pay XX dolars to use it. this money is
put in the community to purchase tooling, product testing etc.
But i like the idea for sure as it should speed up a lot EV market, but in
the same time
people living from this EV market will lose little "power" and probably
money too but i think not much
as there is always people who can't make PCB assembly etc. themselves.
Linux is a good exemple but not perfect, because imho company using it to
make big money don't give even 1/100
their money to the cause...
we need maybe:
-controller design group
-Batterie management and monitoring group
-moteur research group
-synergetic people to go from group to group
...
but we need first people acceptace to the idea that work result is not only
<your> work but group
work and individual money business is not part of the process.
alone i built my house but together we built cathedrales :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Sandman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 4:03 AM
Subject: Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
> after reading all the emails on this topic, i am left with what seems to
> me to be a quite simple solution. "we" build one. no more complaining
> about "unobtainium". we just do it.
>
> let me explain. i am a software engineer who primarily works with open
> source software. in my world, when someone (or a small group) needs
> something, the build it. then they do something amazing. they *give*
> it to the community. it sounds selfless but it is not. they do so
> hoping the someone else will need something similar or better. that
> this new comer will improve their contribution and then themselves
> contribute the improvement back to the community. as this happen over
> time, you end up with an awesome, purpose-built, community-driven
> "thing". for a complete (and brilliant) treatment of this topic see
> eric raymond's "the cathedral and the bazaar."
>
> http://catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/
>
> also, this has been tried in the hardware world too. i use this
> controller to play around. it is completely open, schematics, software
> driver, etc. and they really work with the community
>
> http://www.makingthings.com/makecontrollerkit/index.htm
>
> my point is that their are a number of people on this list that could
> join together to design and develop a controller--or more than one
> controller or any number of other items. in fact, we could eventually
> design and develop a complete line of products for a wide variety of
> applications. these designs could be community maintained. of course,
> any manufacturer (perhaps some of us) could use these designs to mass
> produce components and sell them. this would be an awesome step forward
> for us. we get designs *exactly* as we want. and, manufacturers get to
> make money by providing components built better than the average
> hobbyist could build them. since they do not have to have huge R&D
> budget we should get even lower prices.
>
> okay, i'm back on planet earth. but seriously...might this (or
> something like it) not work?
>
> kind regards,
> mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You are misreading the catalog specs. Mouser decided to usually list
the emitted light density at a standard 20mA, not at the device's actual
rating. Since many devices of the same technology is more or less a
similar light power per mA, all this figure indicates is how well
focused the beam is which was already listed under the divergence. It
does NOT usually indicate the current & light power a device is actually
spec'ed for, which largely makes the catalog listing useless. You have
to pull up spec sheets. It annoys me. When in doubt, start by pulling
up specs for the more expensive ones.
This one for example is spec'd for 70 mA continuous (and Mouser only
lists a 20mA figure for):
http://www.us.kingbright.com/images/catalog/SPEC/WP7676CSEC-H.pdf
I picked up a few devices in that pkg on an order, I think I have one of
those. Oh yes the power is quite impressive for a fairly cheap device!
IIRC "sunset orange" was actually specifically created for LED
taillights, the typical red LED is actually a deeper red than is ideal
for this job. The "orange" devices are typically much more powerful.
They seem to produce substantially more light power per mA too.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Danny Miller wrote:
It's a lot better to use the 7.6mm x 7.6 mm 4-pin flat pack. It's a
far superior thermal design over the T1-3/4 types.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/627/54.pdf
It's still only rated at 20ma, same as the T1-3/4 size. The viewing
angle is wider, and the brightness lower (not necessarily an advantage
for a taillight). The 4-lead package would keep it more stable on the
PC board.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
I just breadboarded this circuit. The LEDs light very smoothly on or
off. I need a low range of 9.0-9.5v and a high range of 13.0-13.5v.
I've only tried it using LEDs for U1 and U2. Right now the parts
values are just a bit off, but the concept is solid. Since I'm going
out for lunch I'll grab some other zener values.
Visible LEDs are about 1.5-2.3v; the infrared LEDs in optocouplers are
more like 1.1v. So, pick your values with the optocouplers; not visible
LEDs.
Or, use both visible LEDs and optocouplers, with the two LEDs in series.
All the optocoupler output can be wired in parallel (all U1s in
parallel, all U2s in parallel) so you only have 3 isolated wires coming
from the pack to the dash. All you need at the dash is two LEDs and two
series resistors to 12v. One wire tells you *some* battery went
overvoltage. The other wire tells you *some* battery went undervoltage.
Having a visible LED on each module means you can look at the pack
itself to see which battery caused the alarm.
This circuit makes for more parts in the pack.
Yes; but you repeat the same circuit N times by using a little PC board.
These parts are all very small and very cheap. I'd pot the board in
epoxy or something with only the wires sticking out to prevent damage
from water, battery acid etc, and mount them right on top of the
batteries with short leads.
Do you suppose I could put an opto between the 12v battery and the
rest of the circuit?
You could, but that's a different circuit. Then you have to contend with
the variations and drift of the optocouplers. They work better as a
digital indicator than for analog signals.
I'm only measuring up to 15ma when the high LED is fully lit, 8ma
when both LEDs are out, and 2ma when the low LED is lit. So maybe
any opto could drive it?
I originally designed this circuit for visible LEDs, where you needed
the higher currents to get adequate brightness. But with optocouplers,
the resistors can be much higher (much lower battery currents) because
darlington optocouplers have a gain of 10 or more.
Since I have 28 modules to monitor I'd like to not have more than one
wire per module going to the dash with a common return for all channels.
This setup assumes just 3 isolated wires from the pack; common,
overvoltage, and undervoltage. You could run individual wires (after
all, they are isolated from the pack) if you wanted to know exactly
which battery went over- or under-voltage. Look up the original July
2004 post; I included a multiplexed circuit to do this that would only
need 15 wires for all 28 batteries.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Trefry wrote:
I guess I'll slink quietly away from this list now...
A few of you have been very helpful, and I thank you for that, but
too many want to discourage pushing boundaries rather than encourage.
Michael, if you decide to work with EVs, you are going to need a very
thick skin! For every one of us "converts" that do believe that EVs are
a good thing, you will encounter HUNDREDS of nay-sayers and
know-nothings who will shout you down with great enthusiasm.
You need to listen to WHAT people say, and ignore HOW they say it. Throw
out all the unsubstantiated opinions of strangers; their free advice is
worth what you paid for it (nothing). Look at the facts. Look for
confirmations, test results, etc. to be sure they *are* facts, and not
more empty opinions.
The post that you found so discouraging is indeed pessimistic, but it
does contain useful facts. I think he was trying to prepare you for the
reality that what you want to do is difficult and expensive. Restoring
*any* 35-year-old car is difficult and expensive, EV or ICE! Beginners
often underestimate the time and money it takes. They often make poor
choices, which makes it cost even more and take even longer. And
frankly, many people are dabblers; they only work on a project when it
is easy and fun, and will give up when it gets hard.
Best wishes, no matter what you decide to do!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
I am now calmer, more disappointed I have to confess... Most of the
current 'home brew' EVs are no better than they were in the 90s...
My truck is heavy with floodies, has neither power steering nor
regenerative braking or a/c, the batteries require more service
than I would ever be willing to provide to its ICE counterpart,
the range is limited and I will have to provide all maintenance
and service myself as no garage or repair shop is willing to touch
my truck.
I understand that feeling! Sometimes, I wonder if it's all worthwhile.
It's so easy to be like everyone else. We're all richer than the kings
of olde, right? Let someone else worry about the future, do all the hard
work, clean the toilets, pay for everything. Me first, everyone else last.
But if we don't build a future we like, we will be forced to live in a
future that someone *else* wanted. In their future, YOU and your kids
will clean their toilets, and will pay for their lavish life style!
So, I putz with my EVs when I could be out ruining the environment for
fun. I buy batteries, while my neighbors buy Hummers to tow their ATVs
to the National forests. I put up solar panels while they put in heated
swimming pools. Yes, it's more work and I get treated as a nut. But I
feel a lot better about myself. And, I can look the kids in the eye and
tell them that I'm helping to build a future they will want to live in!
I am a bit envious when my husband pulls into the driveway, his a/c
humming, leisurely moving the steering wheel with just one finger.
That's fixable. The thing about EVs is that *everything* is fixable.
That's not so true with ICEs!
With your pickup, you could get a $99 window air conditioner, an
inverter, and have air conditioning. If your husband's air conditioner
breaks, it will cost him 10 times the price to get it fixed.
If your pickup ever had power steering, it can be put back in operation
by adding a pulley to drive the stock pump from the back of the DC
traction motor.
Fixing the A/C or power steering, or any other stock system that the
vehicle had is no different on an EV than for an ICE. Local garages
should have no problems doing brakes, tires, glass, A/C, power steering,
and other body work.
I'd rather would have planted a few trees on our ranch to compensate
for the pollution I would be causing with an ICE.
I guess it depends on whether you can fool yourself into thinking that
planting a few trees actually means anything compared to burning 1000
gallons of gasoline a year. :-)
So - I am waiting a few more months if somebody comes up with better
(cheaper?) batteries or other technology that makes life easier. Should
nothing happen, I will part with my EV, put it on EBay (Great EV, 60 Miles
range, NEVER BUY GAS AGAIN) and get myself a nice little 6 cylinder Chevy
Pickup. With power steering, a/c and service contract.
... and put your present EV's parts into it! Then you will have A/C,
power steering, and can still get it serviced :-)
The key is to learn from your mistakes, and move forward; not back away
from all progress just because it isn't perfect the first time.
--
A cat that steps on a hot stove learns not to sit on the stove.
But it won't sit on a warm stove, either. I like to think people are
smarter than cats. -- Mark Twain
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
6 step it?. As a matter of fact, even on the larger AC motors, some
research has shown that sine drive at low rpms is more efficient but
switching over to 6 step at higher rpms would then reduce switching losses.
I believe the Toyota hybrids just use the 6-step waveforms at higher
speeds. The efficiency loss in the motor is more than made up for by the
efficiency gain in the inverter. They only use PWM at low speeds, to get
the smoothness and quietness.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote:
It's time to purchase a new battery pack for the Geo
EV. That would be at least one dozen group 31 AGMs.
The following brands which appear to offer an AGM
battery of that size are under consideration:
Yes, I am kind of in the same boat. While working on my capacity
loss issues with my Dynasty DCS-100L batteries (which turns out to be
chronic under charging), my battery supplier happened to mention my
situation to the Genesis salesman. He said "He should be using out
EnerSys EX95 batteries. They use them in the NYC Orion electric
busses and they have been getting better than 8 years of daily 80%
discharges on them." He then offered to supply me a set at no
charge! Unfortunately, his district manager ruled that out, bummer.
Anyway, I got curious and checked the web but found almost no info on
the Orion busses. I got a copy of the factory info on the Genesis
EX95 group 31 battery the sales man left . It does look pretty
impressive. 1 hour rate 73.5 AH, short circuit current 5000 Amps,
and most significant, a cycle life chart. While not as wildly
optimistic as the salesman's claim, (it only shows about 300 cycles
at 80% discharge) it does show at my average use of about 12.5 AH or
17% discharge, a cycle life of about 2000 cycles. That would be
something like 5.5 years for me.
I would suggest at least giving these batteries a look. I haven't
used them myself (yet) but I may do so.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Sandman wrote:
In my world, when someone (or a small group) needs something, they
build it. Then they do something amazing. They *give* it to the
community.
In fact, this is exactly what is happening with hobby EVs, due to the
existence of resources like the EV list!
This has been tried in the hardware world too. I use this controller
to play around. it is completely open, schematics, software driver,
etc... http://www.makingthings.com/makecontrollerkit/index.htm
That's not a "controller" in the EV sense; it's just a tiny piece of one
-- perhaps 1% of an EV controller.
The idea you're describing works well for certain kinds of problems.
Software is ideal, because you have 100 million identical computers
(PCs) and users. If even 1% of users want a program, that's still a
million customers. If even 1% of these are able to write such a program,
that's 10,000 developers. If even 1% of them are willing to donate their
work, they create 100 "free" programs to choose from.
But the EV market it tiny, and fragmented into many incompatible
systems. The circuits I design generally won't work on more than a few
other people's EV. Even if 10% of them are willing to contribute any
improvements, that's less than one person -- so nothing comes back to
me. Thus there's little to build on.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A bunch of s-10 Blazers have been done. Would that be big enough?
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Nathaniel Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2006 1:19:15 AM
Subject: New to the group.
Hi everyone. I'm new here and exploring the possibilities of going
electric. I have noticed though that most every electric vehicle I've
seen or heard is a little tight for passenger room. I'm 6'3" and I would
prefer to have room for my family as well. Are there any kits or
conversions that work like this right now? This isn't going to happen in
the next few months, so any future looking suggestions would also be
appreciated. Thanks for any comments in advance.
--
Nathaniel Olsen
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nathaniel,
Welcome to the group.
I chose a Civic because it would hold family, and have
legroom for me. I'm 6-1, but the kids are 14 and 5.
We all fit, and it's usually short hops to soccer or
the grocery store.
I think the major questions are, how often are you
all together and how long will you be inside it?
Best to you on your EV journey,
--- Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A bunch of s-10 Blazers have been done. Would that
> be big enough?
> storm
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Nathaniel Olsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, October 8, 2006 1:19:15 AM
> Subject: New to the group.
>
> Hi everyone. I'm new here and exploring the
> possibilities of going
> electric. I have noticed though that most every
> electric vehicle I've
> seen or heard is a little tight for passenger room.
> I'm 6'3" and I would
> prefer to have room for my family as well. Are
> there any kits or
> conversions that work like this right now? This
> isn't going to happen in
> the next few months, so any future looking
> suggestions would also be
> appreciated. Thanks for any comments in advance.
>
> --
> Nathaniel Olsen
> --
>
>
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW, there is 40 acres of vegetation: grass, trees,
etc... in _every gallon_ of gas! Hope you have some
acreage...
(;-p
> I'd rather would have planted a few trees on our
> ranch to compensate for
> the pollution I would be causing with an ICE.
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Last pricing i heard about was 4000$/Kwh but it should drop fast as SAft
announced a
specific production plant construction for end 2008 but we can fear an
exclusive OEM agrement maybe ?
>>>>
Saft: JCS signs a contract for the supply of Li-ion. Ring Finance
[05/09/2006 09:25]
(Circle Finances) - the joint-venture Johnson Controls-Saft (JCS) signed a
contract with a car
manufacturer for the supply of batteries lithium-ion (Li-ion) for the hybrid
vehicles.
This contract should lead to volumes of series production for a vehicle
whose launching is planned for the end of 2008.
The production of the batteries to lithium will require an investment
from 15 to 20 million dollars.
The factory of batteries lithium-ion for vehicle hybrids (HEV) will be the
first of JCS in Europe.
"The contract positions joint-venture JCS like the leader of
the market of the batteries high technologies for the next generation to
convey hybrid"
declared Alan Mumby, President of JCS.
Source:
http://bourse.lefigaro.fr/actualite/Default.asp?Cat=&Source=CF&NumArticle=95733
<<<<<<<<<<
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 2:56 AM
Subject: Saft Lithium-ion Module batteries
> Anyone inquired on the cost of these? It has been a long time since I have
> looked around the SAFT web site but I don't recall seeing these before.
>
> _http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf_
> (http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/VLE_module.pdf)
>
> Don
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See, these are the kinds of suggestions I was looking for.
However, I'll just sit back and wait for everybody to say it can't be done.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 4:14 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: $25,000 Performance Car
Being the entrepeneur that I am, I'm always interesting in creating
solutions to problems and limitations, find faster, easier, cheaper ways.
No question in my mind, batteries are Problem Number One.
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular the
ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah,
and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5 times as much
battery capacity than with AGM for the same weight.
Lets make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea. For 120v, that would be $2,400.
But these cells only do 90amps, which using 4 parallel would be 360amps.
So we up the voltage to 480v using 40 12v blocks. The battery pack now
costs $9,600, but we now have the ability to go very fast and very far.
Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v and 360amps =
172Kw, do regen and braking.
That looks like a AC55, which costs $1,500. But it needs a controller
to dish out that power. Well, I can build one and sell it for $5,000.
So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and controller =
$16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91 Corvette.
This leaves us $4,000 left for the other stuff, and we have our very
fast, very far electric sports car for $25,000.
I'm taking orders for all of you that say you'd buy it if you could,
and I'm not kidding one bit.
Cheers,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular
the ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% DOD just
12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
Sounds promising. But as others have mentioned, your numbers may be a
bit off. The Optima delivers about 24ah at the C/1 rate; but that *is*
the 50% DOD point. It is about 55ah at the 20h rate, and so is about 50%
DOD when 24ah has been taken out. With a 24amp load it will fall to
about 10.5v in 1 hour; but when you remove the load, the voltage rises
back up to 12.5v, which is the 50% DOD point. Oh, and price-wise, $160
is on the high side; $120-$140 is more typical if you're buying enough
for an EV.
20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120. That is
1/5th the weight and even less cost! So basically using these NiMH
cells, you could put in 5 times as much battery capacity than with
AGM for the same weight. Let's make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea.
For 120v, that would be $2,400.
I haven't been able to find any specs on the IB9000. Where does this
data come from? If from the manufacturer, you need to take it with a
grain of salt. They will be "up to... as good as... under ideal
conditions..." specs. Get some actual batteries, and measure what they
actually do.
these cells do 90amps, which using 4 parallel would be 360amps.
Optimas happen to be good at delivering very high currents. It is almost
certain that it would take a lot more than four of these nimh D cells to
provide the same current capabilities. The D-size nimh in the Prius and
Honda hybrids are only good for about half of this, so I'd assume 50
amps max per cell until proven otherwise. I think you would need more
like 10 IB9000 cells in parallel to match the Optima current-wise.
To get the same 12v as the Optima would require ten of these 10-cell
groups. That would be about 17.5kg, compared to 20kg for the Optima. It
would cost $6 x 100 = $600 for the cells alone. However, it would have a
90ah capacity (at the 20-hour rate?) which is pretty good. Let's say you
can get 60ah at the 1-hour rate. You have a battery that's a little
lighter (17.5kg vs 20kg), about twice the capacity (60ah vs 24ah at 1-hr
rate), but ~4x the cost ($600 vs $140).
If you don't spend any more than you would on an Optima for battery
management (under $50/battery), it's unlikely that the life of the nimh
pack will be any better than an Optima. Most nimh cells don't last more
than a few hundred cycles. The ones that do have elaborate expensive
battery management systems.
Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v and 360amps
=172Kw, do regen and braking. That looks like an AC55, which costs
$1,500. But it needs a controller to dish out that power. Well,
I can build one and sell it for $5,000.
So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and controller
=$16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91 Corvette. This leaves us
$4,000 left for the other stuff, and we have our very fast, very
far electric sports car for $25,000.
I'm taking orders for all of you that say you'd buy it if you could,
and I'm not kidding one bit.
Well, I won't say it's impossible. But it will be *very* difficult.
Start small. Get some of those cells, and start testing. Try building a
small AC controller for a bike or scooter. When you get that working,
you'll have a lot more creditable set of numbers on what will be
possible in a bigger version.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jack and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: $25,000 Performance Car
Date: Sun, 08 Oct 2006 01:13:42 -0700
>Being the entrepeneur that I am, I'm always interesting in
>creating solutions to problems and limitations, find
>faster, easier, cheaper ways.
>
>No question in my mind, batteries are Problem Number One.
You are completely wrong. Lead and Nicad batts are
all we need for excellent EV's. NiMH will never be cost
effective though Li-ions will but will take several more
yrs.
What we need are lightweight, aero, low drag gliders.
With them a 100 mile range is easy while staying at a
reasonable price.
EVer's here saying I put tons of money in loser things
like AGM's which triples the cost of the battery pack for a
given range, and wonder why EV's cost so much. Heavy
conversions to start with require much larger, more
expensive EV drives, battery pack. Then they bitch that it
isn't fast, long range!! Well Duh!! Ignoring basic physics,
economics is not going to work.
The way for excellent EV's is a built as an EV as few
conversions are cost effective.
Take my soon to be done EV that weights 600 lbs
without batteries, over twice that with, yet the battery
pack only costs $800 and will get me between 100 and 150
mile range on a charge and 80mph+ top speed. And can be as
fast as you want it on much less power than those leadmines
most of you drive!!
Why is it's very low drag, both aero and rolling. And
since the batts are not stressed because of the low drag,
they live a long time, about 5-7 yrs, again lowering EV
running cost well below ICE levels. There is no reason an EV
can't beat an ICE in costs and performance. You just need to
engineer it correctly like I did. And it's only costing $14k
to put it into production for a $13k base priced EV!! Did I
mention it has a very, very good profit margin? I just redid
the pricing and it's even costs less to make than I had
calculated ;^D And as production increases, the costs will
drop even more as I'm paying retail now for many parts.
The other ways forward is using a strong chassis like
from a 70-80's mini pickup and put an light, aero body from
a kitcar or like a Ghia and you have a very long range EV
that can both be long range and fast. Aero kitcars either
new or used, many of which sell for under $1k used,dead, can
be used the same way to make good, cost effective EV's.
Those of you with Pickup conversions, replace that
steel bed with a good aero shell, losing much weight and
gaining 20% more range above 50 mph range and hgigher top
speed. Hopefully you started with an older, lighter, smaller
mini pickup, right?.
While you say there are no lightweight gliders, the
Kitcars are. And we have the expertise here to build
whatever we need ourselves!! We just need to band together
in groups to support those who will build them for us.
That's how I'm going into production but I should have many
others doing the same. So which of you are going to get off
their ass and do something instead of complaining??? And
will you others support them when they do?
And of course with a low drag EV, a generator to give
it unlimited range can be made for under 100 lbs, less than
2 GC batteries, so you can go as far as you want at 100 or
so mpg!! For high drag, heavier conversions, it has to be
much larger, thus not worhwhile.
Some of you say you have $25k for a hot, fast EV.
Well go order or have someone put together a light, aero
glider like I've described and then put in the EV systems.
You could easily do a high 13sec/1/4 mile, long range EV for
$5k to $25k depending on how much work you do yourself.
I've built a good little 60 mph EV called the Ewoody
that I drove for 10 yrs for under $1k for everything
including tags, batts, ect. It took only 100 hrs to build,
200 for those learning how, so a good EV can be had by
everybody if they look with an open mind. It's time we
stopped conversions and went for real EV's.
And where are the aero cabin MC EV's? Easy for most
anyone to put into producton with 100 mile range at higher
speeds.
So stop your bitching and do good EV's, not leadmines
and help those who want to bring good EV's into production.
I'm here to help anyone as many others are.
Take your EV drives from your leadmines and
transplant them into a good low drag glider and what was a
slow, costly EV becomes a fast, long range, cost effective
one.
Luckily I'm fairly well funded now, but others who
have good EV plans, abilities should be helped by us.
So far only 2 projects are being done for actual
production in a reasonable price range, both started by me,
the Freedom EV, and the Sunrise kitcar which Lee, Bob are
doing.
Where are the rest?
Jerry Dycus
>
>I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in
>particular the ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's
>new 9Ah D-cells. Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is
>24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah, and weigh 20Kg, price is
>about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost
>$120. That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
>So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5
>times as much battery capacity than with AGM for the same
>weight. Lets make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea. For 120v,
>that would be $2,400.
>
>But these cells only do 90amps, which using 4 parallel
>would be 360amps. So we up the voltage to 480v using 40 12v
>blocks. The battery pack now costs $9,600, but we now
>have the ability to go very fast and very far.
>
>Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v
>and 360amps = 172Kw, do regen and braking.
>That looks like a AC55, which costs $1,500. But it needs a
>controller to dish out that power. Well, I can build one
>and sell it for $5,000.
>
>So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and
>controller = $16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91
>Corvette. This leaves us $4,000 left for the other stuff,
>and we have our very fast, very far electric sports car
>for $25,000.
>
>I'm taking orders for all of you that say you'd buy it if
>you could, and I'm not kidding one bit.
>
>Cheers,
>Jack
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
This one for example is spec'd for 70 mA continuous (and Mouser only
lists a 20mA figure for):
http://www.us.kingbright.com/images/catalog/SPEC/WP7676CSEC-H.pdf
OK, I see what you mean. The Mouser catalog lists the typical operating
current (20ma). But from the data sheet, the absolute maximum spec is
70ma for this part.
However, the typical spec *is* the correct one to design with. That 70ma
is the absolute maximum at 25 deg.C. As soon as the temperature rises at
all (and it *will* rise with 70ma flowing in it!) then you need to
reduce the current or you will be over its absolute maximum.
Running beyond the absolute maximums doesn't mean it will fail
instantly. It might work for a day, or a week, or even a year if you're
lucky. But it does mean it will degrade quickly, and has a greatly
increased chance for failure.
You don't use a 100 lbs test rope to hold up something that weighs 100
lbs. You apply a safety factor. The "typical" specs for parts are the
values you should use to get "typical" performance and life. You should
only exceed them if you have carefully weighed the consequences and can
live with them.
IIRC "sunset orange" was actually specifically created for LED
taillights, the typical red LED is actually a deeper red than is ideal
for this job. The "orange" devices are typically much more powerful.
They seem to produce substantially more light power per mA too.
That makes sense. The human eye is not very sensitive to true red. The
more they can shift toward orange, the brighter the human eye will
perceive it. The Candela ratings are all based on the response of the
human eye.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Don:
Thank you for your posting. I am aware of those factory builds. However:
They are old, expensive and there is no service should something fail. A
decent ICE S-10 in very good condition, costs me about USD 7,000, with a
dealership around the corner. Why would somebody spend 3 times as much
without gaining anything in return? No warranties, no service, if
something seriously fails, you'd have to ship the truck back to i.e. EV
Bones.
I'd rather stick to my truck for the time being. At least I am able to fix
most things.
Michaela
> Michaela
>
> There is another path to take. There are used factory electric vehicles.
> Have you taken a look at EVbones web site? You can buy a GM made S-10 they
> have
> Air heat power steering keep up with traffic and do 70 miles an hour. When
> you
> look at what you get it is a bargain for around 20,000 with NiMH
> batteries.
>
> Their are electric Rangers as well. I would watch what you pay for it if
> it
> still has the 8 volt batteries as they are going to fail. You could check
> with Blue Sky Motors but I don't think they have any more NiMH trucks.
>
> Don't hold me to the above prices I have no connection to the above
> companies.
>
> If anyone is in Oregon or close to Portland I would go out of my way to
> help
> you or sell you one of mine. I have driven many miles and I highly
> recommend
> these and if you don't mind a smaller car the Solectria is not bad
> either.
> They are less money but the factory trucks are about as close to an ICE
> vehicle replacement that most people do even know they are in an electric
> vehicle
> unless I tell them.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 10/7/2006 10:31:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michaela Merz
> Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 5:26 PM
> To: Michael Trefry
> Cc: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
>
> Hmm .. sounds like me about 1 year ago. I am now calmer, more
> disappointed
> I have to confess though I am hoping for commercial EVs to be available
> soon (and in a range I can afford). Most of the current 'home brew' EVs
> are no better than they were in the 90s with no commercial entities
> willing to invest into newer technologies or even gimmicks. My truck is
> heavy with floodies, has neither power steering nor regenerative braking
> or a/c, the batteries require more service than I would ever be willing
> to
> provide to its ICE counterpart, the range is limited and I will have to
> provide all maintenance and service myself as no garage or repair shop is
> willing to touch my truck.
>
> IN the summer, I have to deal with overheating controllers while the
> sweat
> burns my eyes, in the winter I have to monitor the battery heaters to
> keep
> at least some juice available for driving.
>
> I like my truck. It kind of does what it is supposed to do. On the other
> hand, I could have that with a horse carriage or a steam engine. But I am
> of course telling everybody the 'advantages' of driving electric - not
> necessarily in a 'home brew' though. And I am a bit envious when my
> husband pulls into the driveway, his a/c humming, leisurely moving the
> steering wheel with just one finger.
>
> No - I am not going to learn to weld and get myself equipped with all the
> metal working tools just to build myself some kind of air conditioning.
> And I most certainly will not invest almost 20K in a set of batteries. If
> I would have known what I know now (bad preparation or I may have been a
> little to naive), I would not have started EVing. For the money I spent I
> could have easily gotten a nice vehicle and lots of tanks full of gas.
>
> I'd rather would have planted a few trees on our ranch to compensate for
> the pollution I would be causing with an ICE.
>
> So - I am waiting a few more months if somebody comes up with better
> (cheaper?) batteries or other technology that makes life easier. Should
> nothing happen, I will part with my EV, put it on EBay (Great EV, 60
> Miles
> range, NEVER BUY GAS AGAIN) and get myself a nice little 6 cylinder Chevy
> Pickup. With power steering, a/c and service contract.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Michaela
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
