EV Digest 5986
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Getting an AC motor inverter built
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) article: The Smart EV: Coming Soon to the Public?
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV Disappointment)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: cost effetive, long range EV's
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Michaela EV Disappointment
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) re:Community Blogging and Forum site?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV Disappointment)
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NiMH 1.2V 500 Ah floodies
by Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Michaela EV Disappointment
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Optima price, was Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) re:Community Blogging and Forum site?
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New Neon Kit, was New to the list
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Optima price, was Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) NiMH pack, was Re: $25,000 Performance Car
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Batteries
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV Disappointment)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe wrote:
I suppose it may work but the question is do you agree to let car makers
take "our work" and making profits ?
Sure. If they can make good use of it, all the better.
I would ask to have a
clause that clearly state than
this community work is freely usable by individual and EV only companies !
for others (ICE car makers) they have to pay XX dollars to use it.
That seems like it would hinder development and add needless complexity to it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Apparently DC's mulling the possibly of making EV Smarts available:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/10/the_smart_ev_co.php
--
Paul Wujek - Toronto ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm there 100%! It would also be great to have areas individuals can
link or show what they are doing for other to view and provide feedback.
On Oct 8, 2006, at 10:19 AM, Michael Trefry wrote:
Seeing how I've been asking a lot from the list, and been
frustrated by the
information I've been receiving. It got me thinking.
Part of my frustration was (and is) in my initial research, which
granted
wasn't an overwhelming amount, but nevertheless about a week's
worth of
searching and finding very limited information about conversions.
Evalbum is nice, but it lacks detail. Most entries have very limited
information and don't provide a whole lot to go on.
I've seen others mention a central place for the best information
to be
archived, outside of the list archive, which is absolutely PAINFUL
to find
information on while filtering through all the noise.
So I figured I would offer my services in what I do best. Community
Website
building.
If I built a community site for blogging and discussions about EVs
and EV
conversion projects, would anyone be interested in using it?
The site would be absolutely free to join and blog, and I guarantee
it would
be a quality blogging and discussion site (that is after all my
business and
livelihood).
It would be nice to have a one- stop-site to view the details on
the plans,
steps and results of people conversion projects.
Any takers?
Thanks,
Mike Trefry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Read the research about the comparison of total impact and cost of energy of
EV vs ICE. You will find that even with coal powered plants, it is 5% of
what ICE cars produce. Lead batteries are recycled. Roads impact is the
same for both cases. Yes there is an impact - but no it is nowhere near
what ICE cars have.
Environmental IS the reason to convert.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: October 8, 2006 9:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV
Disappointment)
Well, AC could be put in, DC-DC/controller could be fixed... Many people put
in AC in EVs. Don't you just need to hook up a motor to the compressor,
what's the problem?...
But the truth is EVs aren't really saving the enviroment much, at least not
at this moment, anyway.. Electricity? Coal = dirty. Manufacturing of
batteries and various components? Polluting. Constructing and maintaining
the very roads we ride on? Polluting. Isn't asphalt made from oil? And this
is only one car, like you said. So if it's for enviromental reasons, don't
really bother.
I guess you should just get an ICE truck and be done with it. And maybe look
at EVs later in the future. Everybody will. ICE will be extinct eventually,
as gasoline is the only fuel that's economical to run them. Ethanol and
Biodiesel have a lot of problems of their own, and will probably never gain
huge popularity as the main fuel to quench the thirst of so many cars.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
>
> Lee:
>
> Thank you for your suggestions. However: It is not as easy as it sounds.
> Where am I supposed to put the window a/c? Put it in the rear window,
> restrict my view and look like some red neck (hmm .. I could add a rebel
> flag to make it look perfect ;) And what kind of an inverter should I get?
> A 12V system that flattens my poor battery even more? Since there are no
> integrated DC-DC/battery charger combinations available, I have enough
> trouble with DC-DC keeping up with the load as it is now. I tried to find
> inverters for pack voltage -> household current, but all I found was a
> 120V DC version that delivers about 1000W.
>
> It's not the range that bothers me. I can live with 50 Miles. It's the
> little things that drive me nuts. Like i.e. a/c., regen, weak DC-DC
> without charging capabilities, overheating controllers, unreliable EMeter,
> not to mention battery care and winter related problems and the
> possibilities of catastrophic failures, like full power on controller
> melt-down.
>
> Every topic in itself would be managable. But the combination of all would
> take months of work and a lot of cold hard cash.
>
> I realize now, that a lot of folks have a lot of fun to build and tinker
> with their EVs. It's a hobby for them and I respect that. I just want a
> reliable truck that serves my needs. I am not an amateur mechanic willing
> to spend the weekend welding, soldering or metal working.
>
> That leaves us with the environmental aspects. The other day, while I was
> in Germany, I stood at a 'autobahn' while my husband was getting something
> to drink. I counted 383 cars and trucks in 5 minutes. All going 80 miles
> or faster (well, not the trucks). Let's assume, all those cars and trucks
> have an average gas mileage of 30 mpg. Lets further assume, that all those
> vehicles were just driving 30 miles. That leaves us with 383 Gallons of
> burned fuel in just that 5 Minutes in only that tiny little strip of
> highway somewhere in Germany.
>
> So - am I willing to kid myself by thinking I am actually changing
> anything by avoiding an ICE truck? The problem has to be solved
> differently, not by a few guys (and girls) like us who are driving EVs.
>
> Michaela
>
>
>
>
>> Michaela Merz wrote:
>>> I am now calmer, more disappointed I have to confess... Most of the
>>> current 'home brew' EVs are no better than they were in the 90s...
>>> My truck is heavy with floodies, has neither power steering nor
>>> regenerative braking or a/c, the batteries require more service
>>> than I would ever be willing to provide to its ICE counterpart,
>>> the range is limited and I will have to provide all maintenance
>>> and service myself as no garage or repair shop is willing to touch
>>> my truck.
>>
>> I understand that feeling! Sometimes, I wonder if it's all worthwhile.
>> It's so easy to be like everyone else. We're all richer than the kings
>> of olde, right? Let someone else worry about the future, do all the hard
>> work, clean the toilets, pay for everything. Me first, everyone else
>> last.
>>
>> But if we don't build a future we like, we will be forced to live in a
>> future that someone *else* wanted. In their future, YOU and your kids
>> will clean their toilets, and will pay for their lavish life style!
>>
>> So, I putz with my EVs when I could be out ruining the environment for
>> fun. I buy batteries, while my neighbors buy Hummers to tow their ATVs
>> to the National forests. I put up solar panels while they put in heated
>> swimming pools. Yes, it's more work and I get treated as a nut. But I
>> feel a lot better about myself. And, I can look the kids in the eye and
>> tell them that I'm helping to build a future they will want to live in!
>>
>>> I am a bit envious when my husband pulls into the driveway, his a/c
>>> humming, leisurely moving the steering wheel with just one finger.
>>
>> That's fixable. The thing about EVs is that *everything* is fixable.
>> That's not so true with ICEs!
>>
>> With your pickup, you could get a $99 window air conditioner, an
>> inverter, and have air conditioning. If your husband's air conditioner
>> breaks, it will cost him 10 times the price to get it fixed.
>>
>> If your pickup ever had power steering, it can be put back in operation
>> by adding a pulley to drive the stock pump from the back of the DC
>> traction motor.
>>
>> Fixing the A/C or power steering, or any other stock system that the
>> vehicle had is no different on an EV than for an ICE. Local garages
>> should have no problems doing brakes, tires, glass, A/C, power steering,
>> and other body work.
>>
>>> I'd rather would have planted a few trees on our ranch to compensate
>>> for the pollution I would be causing with an ICE.
>>
>> I guess it depends on whether you can fool yourself into thinking that
>> planting a few trees actually means anything compared to burning 1000
>> gallons of gasoline a year. :-)
>>
>>> So - I am waiting a few more months if somebody comes up with better
>>> (cheaper?) batteries or other technology that makes life easier. Should
>>> nothing happen, I will part with my EV, put it on EBay (Great EV, 60
>>> Miles
>>> range, NEVER BUY GAS AGAIN) and get myself a nice little 6 cylinder
>>> Chevy
>>> Pickup. With power steering, a/c and service contract.
>>
>> ... and put your present EV's parts into it! Then you will have A/C,
>> power steering, and can still get it serviced :-)
>>
>> The key is to learn from your mistakes, and move forward; not back away
>> from all progress just because it isn't perfect the first time.
>> --
>> A cat that steps on a hot stove learns not to sit on the stove.
>> But it won't sit on a warm stove, either. I like to think people are
>> smarter than cats. -- Mark Twain
>> --
>> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, I too am also skeptical by nature.
But those who say they will buy when its proven will necessarily have to
pay twice as much. Without risk, there is little reward. So my $25K
car will cost you $50K when its proven.
It is the ones that take risk that make progress.
Jack
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 07:05 AM 10/8/2006, jerryd wrote:
Take my soon to be done EV that weights 600 lbs
without batteries, over twice that with, yet the battery
pack only costs $800 and will get me between 100 and 150
mile range on a charge and 80mph+ top speed.
Jerry, I REALLY REALLY hope you succeed in those specs, but I admit to
being a doubting thomas, mainly due to the number of people who have
claimed such on Not Yet Built vehicles.
If your vehicle DOES meed those specs, I'm very likely to buy one!
Generally, I don't believe specs until it's been built and tested.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me tell you some stories before you take your car into the dealer.
1) GM announced they were going to lower there car prices and make up
for it in service. This is their chosen buisness model.
2) My friends new (at the time) truck wouldn't start after he changed
the stereo, it seemed the cars computer couldn't find the stereo during
boot and decided this was unacceptable and wouldn't power the fuel
injection relay. He was more than a little disappointed that the tow and
repair were expensive and NOT covered. It took the service department
days to figure it out.
3) A service bulitain for GM service centers posted a reply to a guy
owning a shop in texas. The customer brought in a 2000 something malibu
with a problem, interior lights and door locks randomly going on and off
as he drove. This was determined to be the "body computer" and although
the part could be purchased, had to be installed by the GM dealership 50
miles away because they are the only ones with the little black box to
program them.
4) A class is offered in major cities for independent repair shops on
how to tap into the data streams and repair newer cars. They no longer
provide this info. No more Service manuals! As a matter of fact they
have found a new source of revenue, $$$/month subscription to access the
GM server for info. I asked the guy in the local dealer who was kind
enough to print out some pages for me, how I could get access to such a
system now that I can't get service manuals for new cars. He said it was
a $1300 subscription. I didn't ask if that was annual or monthl but if I
am an independent shop and want to offer working on various model cars,
this becomes an issue.
5) An older friend had the battery go dead on his crown vic. I old
found out cause he borrowed my charger. He takes it in to get a battery
and a week later it is dead, so he takes it into the dealer who replaces
the alternator. A week later, the battery is dead. On this third time he
is borrowing the charger, he is explaining this all, not mentioning
that the dealer was the one who replaced the alternator, and so I stop
to ask did he tell the computer that the battery had been changed? . Of
course he asked what I meant so I explained that the high amperage
alternators were causing belt squeal right after starting the car so the
computer is now in charge of the field excitation to the alternator. It
soft starts it after starting the car. When a battery goes bad the
computer can shut off the output and it stores a code. Pulling the
battery won't clear the code you need to use a box or execute the
standard drive cycle. We Went on the internet and found the secret
handshake where you start the engine without touching the throttle and
let it idle x number of seconds, then hold rpm at xxxx for xx seconds
then turn the ignition off, on, and off.
Do we want to support this tactic? I vote with my dollars and vote no.
I like the idea of applying the open source model to the Automotive
world, I have talked about it in the past, I would even say push the
standards with subsequent modularity in there to.
I don't need a yearly model, Why not continually update components.
The abstraction and standardization of interfaces could be a
great starting point.
Mechanical interfaces motor to tranny, motor to mount, motor
to driveline etc.
electrical interfaces , 20pin waterproof connector to
controller or BMS and some electrical and physical protocol.
If more than one company is capable of makeing a module that fits
the interface, then there may actually be compitetion.
I also like the LGPL concept How a proprietary driver is permitted
with a caution but as long as it fits a standard interface, facility is
made for it. Think early jeep. Unfortunantly it took an act of congress
to get the autocompanies to follow a standard.
1 last point on the "batteries are the problem" and the " you are
totally wrong" comment. Both statements are extreams; The real world
lies somewhere in between. A purpose built EV can get by on lead acid
for those early adopters willing to accept some compromises from what
marketing has told us we have to have in a vehicle. But likewise my car
presently getting 466 WH/mile is terrible. Even if I could get a lighter
battery that lasts 100K miles, I would still have to CHARGE that thing.
There is no excuse for such inefficiency in an EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure, a great idea. The toughest thing will be getting enough people to post
there. The EVDL should be a website-based discussion forum by now, this
email concept is getting old with less features, although it does work.
Somebody NEEDs to figure out a way to make a seamless transformation to a
website forum.
Please, somebody. EVDL admin? I think we really need a new forum. We're
stuck in the stone-age. I'm sure there are actually a lot of beginners who
want to discuss EVs, but are put-off by the clutter of this email list, and
so they don't sign up or read it.
Simple solution: Put up a forum on www.evdl.org . So people will have a
choice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 1:19 PM
Subject: Community Blogging and Forum site?
Seeing how I've been asking a lot from the list, and been frustrated by
the
information I've been receiving. It got me thinking.
Part of my frustration was (and is) in my initial research, which granted
wasn't an overwhelming amount, but nevertheless about a week's worth of
searching and finding very limited information about conversions.
Evalbum is nice, but it lacks detail. Most entries have very limited
information and don't provide a whole lot to go on.
I've seen others mention a central place for the best information to be
archived, outside of the list archive, which is absolutely PAINFUL to find
information on while filtering through all the noise.
So I figured I would offer my services in what I do best. Community
Website
building.
If I built a community site for blogging and discussions about EVs and EV
conversion projects, would anyone be interested in using it?
The site would be absolutely free to join and blog, and I guarantee it
would
be a quality blogging and discussion site (that is after all my business
and
livelihood).
It would be nice to have a one- stop-site to view the details on the
plans,
steps and results of people conversion projects.
Any takers?
Thanks,
Mike Trefry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
As I have mentioned in previous threads, I go to GreenCarCongrees.com every
day. I get information that is very useful regarding trends in
transportation. Just a suggestion.
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Trefry
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Community Blogging and Forum site?
Seeing how I've been asking a lot from the list, and been frustrated by the
information I've been receiving. It got me thinking.
Part of my frustration was (and is) in my initial research, which granted
wasn't an overwhelming amount, but nevertheless about a week's worth of
searching and finding very limited information about conversions.
Evalbum is nice, but it lacks detail. Most entries have very limited
information and don't provide a whole lot to go on.
I've seen others mention a central place for the best information to be
archived, outside of the list archive, which is absolutely PAINFUL to find
information on while filtering through all the noise.
So I figured I would offer my services in what I do best. Community Website
building.
If I built a community site for blogging and discussions about EVs and EV
conversion projects, would anyone be interested in using it?
The site would be absolutely free to join and blog, and I guarantee it would
be a quality blogging and discussion site (that is after all my business and
livelihood).
It would be nice to have a one- stop-site to view the details on the plans,
steps and results of people conversion projects.
Any takers?
Thanks,
Mike Trefry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This comes up periodically and the concensus is that it is best not to
fragment the list. A lot of use get it in digest form anyway.
What I was thinking was some supporting services.
Perhaps a "wrapper" to the list that accesses the archives, the album
and blogs. We can link to them in our album or our posts.
I had all my stuff availiable online for a long time but lost my
internet access with the fast upload speed. And it is "illegal" with
most ISP's to have a server unless you specifically pay for it.
The equivilent of a pastebin for allowing us to refer to a long post
without actually posting it like newspaper articles or a pdf of a flyer
The blog is good but not as a replacement of the discussion. If there
are two places it fragments the list. We could use it to document
ongoing projects.
A FAQ, let me say that again, A FAQ
A link to an IRC channel where we can get immediate help and have
some real time discussions
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Read the research about the comparison of total impact and cost of
energy of
> EV vs ICE. You will find that even with coal powered plants, it is
5% of
> what ICE cars produce. Lead batteries are recycled. Roads impact
is the
> same for both cases. Yes there is an impact - but no it is nowhere near
> what ICE cars have.
>
> Environmental IS the reason to convert.
>
Well, coal-fired plants for electricity were more like 50% of the
impact of an ICE, at least from the reports I've read in the past, but
you'd have to go back several years into the archives to find the
study link.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I was wondering if anyone has considered the idea of getting the NIMH
1.2V, 500ah batteries and converting them to multi cells ... Use a
plexiglass package with compartments for each cell... maby go 12V at
about 100ah ... maby bmore as 120 or 150 ah would be a nice capacity!
A good setup should net you 5 100ah batteries from the parts...
Am I out to lunch here or is this a possibility?
And has anyone tried something like this?... perhaps using lead acid?
Tom
----------------------
On 3 Oct 2006 at 22:00, Lock Hughes wrote:
> These are pretty large NiMH cells aren't they? Just thought some
here
> might be interested.
I expect that you'll have no problems (other than technical) with
these if
you're a hobbyist, and you're reasonably circumspect.
However, I suspect that the manufacturer hasn't paid Ovonics a
license fee.
Ovonics likes to keep a pretty tight grip on NiMH production, and
they don't
want anyone producing EV-size modules, so it's very unlikely that
they will
license this company to make them legally. If you were to try
selling
vehicles fitted with these batteries, you might find Ovonics
breathing down
your neck (and reaching into your wallet for some damages).
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a hobby of model trains. I go to this web site that has a forum.
http://www.aristocraft.com/ it is great. I pick and choose what threads I
want to read. I can search the archives. Just a sample to look at.
Curtis Muhlestein
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 12:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Community Blogging and Forum site?
Sure, a great idea. The toughest thing will be getting enough people to post
there. The EVDL should be a website-based discussion forum by now, this
email concept is getting old with less features, although it does work.
Somebody NEEDs to figure out a way to make a seamless transformation to a
website forum.
Please, somebody. EVDL admin? I think we really need a new forum. We're
stuck in the stone-age. I'm sure there are actually a lot of beginners who
want to discuss EVs, but are put-off by the clutter of this email list, and
so they don't sign up or read it.
Simple solution: Put up a forum on www.evdl.org . So people will have a
choice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 1:19 PM
Subject: Community Blogging and Forum site?
> Seeing how I've been asking a lot from the list, and been frustrated by
> the
> information I've been receiving. It got me thinking.
>
>
>
> Part of my frustration was (and is) in my initial research, which granted
> wasn't an overwhelming amount, but nevertheless about a week's worth of
> searching and finding very limited information about conversions.
>
>
>
> Evalbum is nice, but it lacks detail. Most entries have very limited
> information and don't provide a whole lot to go on.
>
>
>
> I've seen others mention a central place for the best information to be
> archived, outside of the list archive, which is absolutely PAINFUL to find
> information on while filtering through all the noise.
>
>
>
> So I figured I would offer my services in what I do best. Community
> Website
> building.
>
>
>
> If I built a community site for blogging and discussions about EVs and EV
> conversion projects, would anyone be interested in using it?
>
>
>
> The site would be absolutely free to join and blog, and I guarantee it
> would
> be a quality blogging and discussion site (that is after all my business
> and
> livelihood).
>
>
>
> It would be nice to have a one- stop-site to view the details on the
> plans,
> steps and results of people conversion projects.
>
>
>
> Any takers?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Trefry
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Thank you for your posting. I am aware of those factory builds. However:
> They are old, expensive and there is no service should something fail. A
> decent ICE S-10 in very good condition, costs me about USD 7,000, with a
> dealership around the corner. Why would somebody spend 3 times as much
> without gaining anything in return? No warranties, no service, if
> something seriously fails, you'd have to ship the truck back to i.e. EV
> Bones.
>
One benefit of the Ranger is that Ford still services them, but the
EV-capable dealers are pretty few and far between. And they are going
for only twice what a decent ICE S-10 runs ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Not any more Lee. I did LOTS of shopping around, and the best price
> I found was about $156 ea in Qty 13.
> I ended up paying $160 ea at CostCo since that was 2 hours less
> driving time to get them.
>
$148 here (but $20 to ship)
http://www.lowcostbatteries.com/product_p/d34-fslash-78y.htm
$138.82 here (no shipping listed)
http://www.diversifiedbattery.com/product536.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An IRC chat would be GREAT too. Of course, also add a Java based IRC on the
website for those who don't have an IRC client.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 2:27 PM
Subject: re:Community Blogging and Forum site?
This comes up periodically and the concensus is that it is best not to
fragment the list. A lot of use get it in digest form anyway.
What I was thinking was some supporting services.
Perhaps a "wrapper" to the list that accesses the archives, the album
and blogs. We can link to them in our album or our posts.
I had all my stuff availiable online for a long time but lost my
internet access with the fast upload speed. And it is "illegal" with
most ISP's to have a server unless you specifically pay for it.
The equivilent of a pastebin for allowing us to refer to a long post
without actually posting it like newspaper articles or a pdf of a flyer
The blog is good but not as a replacement of the discussion. If there
are two places it fragments the list. We could use it to document
ongoing projects.
A FAQ, let me say that again, A FAQ
A link to an IRC channel where we can get immediate help and have
some real time discussions
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can see the Neon being a success. (It's too bad they aren't made any
longer.) Still, when they dropped the price of the new 2005's below $10K,
the local economy is filled with them... and all look just like mine. <g>
What do you do with the suspension (especially front) on your rig? That's
pretty soft, even w/ the standard ICE. Weight loading should be a problem
otherwise. I have loaded 500 lbs in my car & can't even tell it's there.
----- Original Message -----
From: "canev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: New Neon Kit, was New to the list
> Hi Nathaniel, I'm 6'2 and find some conversions tight. We have developed a
new conversion kit for the Dodge Neon which gives a good 50-70 km range and
very nice performance.
> It uses the Trojan T1275 (12 volt) golf cart battery (or anything else you
may want to use) so battery life should be good.
> The Neon has enough head room for me and the car seats 5.
> The other way to go if you need more range is the S-10 extended cab truck
with jump seats. The S-10 is our most popular kit, we are shipping about two
kits a month at the moment which is way up from our past 2 a year (for the
last 16 years)!!
>
> BFN
> Randy
> Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
> Website: http://www.canev.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:39 AM 10/8/2006, Death to All Spammers wrote:
$138.82 here (no shipping listed)
http://www.diversifiedbattery.com/product536.html
and $23 ea for shipping.
So, about $160 ea is the current price for Optima YT - just as I said.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think the short-term solution is NiMH batteries, and in particular
the
> ones I mentioned just recently, Intellect's new 9Ah D-cells.
> Compare to a Optima Yellow Top, that is 24Ah C/1, at 50% dod just 12Ah,
> and weigh 20Kg, price is about $160.
> 20 cells of IB9000 would be 18Ah, weigh 3.5Kg, and cost $120.
> That is 1/5th the weight and even less cost!
>
> So basically using these NiMH cells, you could put in 5 times as much
> battery capacity than with AGM for the same weight.
> Lets make it 40 cells 36Ah and $240 ea. For 120v, that would be $2,400.
>
> But these cells only do 90amps, which using 4 parallel would be 360amps.
> So we up the voltage to 480v using 40 12v blocks. The battery pack now
> costs $9,600, but we now have the ability to go very fast and very far.
>
> Problem Number Two, we need a motor that can run on 480v and 360amps =
> 172Kw, do regen and braking.
> That looks like a AC55, which costs $1,500. But it needs a controller
> to dish out that power. Well, I can build one and sell it for $5,000.
>
> So we now have $9,600 in batteries, $6,500 for motor and controller =
> $16,100. We put it into a $4,000 1984-91 Corvette.
> This leaves us $4,000 left for the other stuff, and we have our very
> fast, very far electric sports car for $25,000.
>
Optimas have an RC (run at 25A) of 120min, that's a C/2 of 50Ah.
Probably still have over 40Ah at C/1, unless you meant to say you are
only draining 24Ah for <60% DOD?
You can parallel lithium chemistries, but NiMH need a special system
to do this. AIRlab has developed one to do this safely - Edward Ang is
on the list. But you will end up with a more expensive battery system
than if you just soldered/welded up the cells and only managed modules
instead of individual cells (or, the cheapest and most damaging
solution, don't manage at all).
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--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone heard anymore about the Firefly Batteries?
I haven't seen any more information about them lately, I emailed them
last week asking about ev batteries, but got no reply.
Bill
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--- Begin Message ---
Just a small thing to insert here:
I have an EV which goes 0-60 in much less thaqn 10 sec. It goes 100
miles on charge and costs about 15 000 USD to make (Chassis, batts,
charger, controller, motor.. EVerything...)
Powered by Lithium. Pack weights about 500 lbs.
I'll put it up to EValbum next week so you all can get to know a bit
more about it. Far from Porsche but goes nicely with 1k Zilla in it.
8p
Short video in www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
It seems it CAN be done with todays technology.
-Jukka
Peter VanDerWal kirjoitti:
Fair enough.
First step, accept the FACT that you can't get ALL of your requirements in
a vehicle that costs less than $20,000 (probably not in one that costs
less than%50k either)
Which requirements do you really want, and wh ich are myou willing to drop?
General rule, you can have quick, long range, or cheap; pick one.
Or quick, long range, moderately priced; pick two.
Um, no. I'm asking for a car with less performance and range than a Metro.
Ok, fine, I know there are limitations everyone, I KNOW!
But for crying out loud, everytime I ask a question here, I'm simply told
what I can't do, and not what I can.
Very few are willing to offer suggestions.
Yeah, I know the technology is there.
Yeah I know it's expensive.
I'm not asking for a Tesla.
I didn't say 0-60 in 4 seconds.
I didn't say a top speed of 150 (or whatever ridiculous speed it gets)
I didn't say 250 miles on a charge.
I didn't expect a Tesla.
I was simply asking what I can do to get to where I want to be with the
car
I have (or at least in the neighborhood).
Thanks again for the helpful response.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Edward Ang
Sent: Saturday, October 07, 2006 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
On 10/7/06, Michael Trefry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks.
I guess I'll slink quietly away from this list now.
But I Appreciate the encouragement.
Rather than posting suggestions on what I can do to get close to what I
want, or part of the way to what I want, I get useless replies like the
one
below.
A few of you have been very helpful, and I thank you for that, but too
many
want to discourage pushing boundaries rather than encourage.
What boundaries? You are asking if you could have a Corvette but only
wanted to for a Metro. And, you want to build it yourself. You could
if you ramp the production of the Corvette to hundreds of thousand
units a year. You are trying to push the manufacturing boundaries.
Yes, you could. You need cash, at least a 100 million dollars.
You knew when you started this discussion that the technology is
already here. Buy a Tesla.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIMÄKI
jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The post that you found so discouraging is indeed pessimistic, but it
> does contain useful facts. I think he was trying to prepare you for the
> reality that what you want to do is difficult and expensive. Restoring
> *any* 35-year-old car is difficult and expensive, EV or ICE! Beginners
> often underestimate the time and money it takes. They often make poor
> choices, which makes it cost even more and take even longer. And
> frankly, many people are dabblers; they only work on a project when it
> is easy and fun, and will give up when it gets hard.
>
Lee, I didn't think I was being pessimistic, just realistic. I had my
wife read the post after the newbie reacted so badly, since she is
much more polite/sociable than me, and her first question was "how old
is this kid?" (I informed her it was an adult). I guess exposure to me
over the years has indirectly educated her enough to know the
limitations inherent in EVs without knowing the specifics.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone's enthusiasm, but preconceived
notions that are not backed by facts are as damaging to the EV cause
as anything the auto industry has done - would you go to an ICE
discussion list and state you are going to build a 100mpg car that
goes 0-60 in 6-7 seconds and hits 90mph with *present-day* technology?
What if you then said you plan on doing this with a 4-door?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 8 Oct 2006 at 13:19, Michael Trefry wrote:
> If I built a community site for blogging and discussions about EVs and EV
> conversion projects, would anyone be interested in using it?
This comes up every couple of months, just about like clockwork. Some
folks actually do it. And I'm sorry to say that most of their efforts languish
and eventually disappear.
One of the more successful examples is the Voltage Forum :
http://www.visforvoltage.com/forums/index.php
You might try it. Perhaps it would suit your needs better than this list,
especially if you're keen on scooters. For road EVs it's not anywhere near
as comprehensive as this list, but if the limited information and participation
available in that department meets your needs, you might find that the forum
organization works better for you.
On the other hand, here's an outstanding idea that just hasn't caught on as
well as many of us hoped :
http://www.evforge.net
EVforge was launched with a fair bit of discussion here, but it doesn't seem
to have really garnered much interest, which is really too bad. This is more
typical of the success of the EVDL alternatives, I'm sorry to say.
It also demonstrates one of the pitfalls of these efforts. One of the sad
constants is the front-page apology that the sysop hasn't had time lately to
do much with them.
It's because these websites and forums are mostly carried out as a spare-
time activity, and most of us have lives, jobs, and families. Heck, most
would rather be out in the garage working on the EV than beating on the
keyboard. From what I've seen around the web, operating a successful forum
- even one which should be user supported - is pretty much a full time job,
and who's going to pay you for it?
Besides, there's a solid core of really smart and experienced EV builders on
this list, and so far they don't seem to see a need to move elsewhere. They
contribute a lot of good stuff. You couldn't buy better advice at any price.
The plain vanilla mailing list may be an old-fashioned, inflexible medium, but
like any other medium, what really counts is the content. And the content
here is pretty darn good.
May I make a suggestion?
This list is archived in many locations - at least half a dozen - but what's
missing from all of them is a really good search engine. For years I've held
the domain name evdl.org, with plans to build a better archive and search
function on that homepage. But I'm like all those other forum operators - I
just don't have the time. At least I haven't abandoned the domain name.
Someday I'll have more time, and I'll really do it.
Why don't you beat me to the punch? Instead of trying to tear down the
EVDL, build onto it. Create that killer searchable archive for it, the one
that
fixes what you don't like about the EVDL.
I will ask you for only one thing, and that is a long-term commitment. Please
don't build something that you're going to lose interest in 2 years or 5 years
from now, and abandon. The EVDL has been around for 15 years. Given the
history of EVs, I expect there will still be a need for it in another 15. I'd
love
to see you build on its success, but only if you promise us that you're in it
for
the long haul - and KEEP that promise.
David Roden
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's true, but an EV will go about twice as far on that same energy.
(Further at low speeds.)
I think where the *huge* impact for EVs comes in is when they are built and
not used. There's a lot of energy tied up in making the components, they you
see some, 10+ years old, w/ 5K miles.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 08, 2006 11:27 AM
Subject: Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy ( Michaela EV
Disappointment)
> Well, coal-fired plants for electricity were more like 50% of the
> impact of an ICE, at least from the reports I've read in the past, but
> you'd have to go back several years into the archives to find the
> study link.
--- End Message ---
