EV Digest 6012
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Free Zappy Jr.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: lee's emeter companion?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: 42 volts + boost?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: 1964 Nissan Sport Truck
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: $25,000 performance car
by Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) GWiZ 5th gear review
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 42 volts + boost?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Buss Bars
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: GWiZ 5th gear review
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Carbon-foam battery
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: GWiZ 5th gear review
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Buss Bars
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Buss Bars
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Carbon-foam battery
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Power Technology
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Power Technology
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Buss Bars
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: #22
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Power Technology
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: GWiZ 5th gear review
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Buss Bars
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/mcy/219687732.html Free to anyone on the
lists. So ignore the 50 dollar price. First come first served. I put a
price so it might last a while. Craigslist is a good resource to post
pictures. It only lasts a week though. Lawrence.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cory Cross wrote:
> Are there any special problems with my idea?
Not really problems per se, but certainly there are a few challenges:
- for the guage(s) to estimate distance remaining at various speeds,
someone has to determine how much energy this particular vehicle
consumes at each speed of interest and enter that into the guage. It
also assumes that the amount of energy required to maintain a particular
speed is a constant for the vehicle, which will not be true in general
(e.g. holding some speed on an incline vs on level ground, or into a
headwind vs a tailwind, or with the top up or down on a convertible, or
with or without a trailer attached, etc.)
- it could consume an excessive amount of the relatively valuable
(limite) dashboard space, since multiple displays are required to show
estimated range remaining at each speed of interest.
I think that the same functionality could essentially be provided by a
single distance-to-empty indicator. To see the estimated range
remaining at various speeds of interest, one would simply speed up or
slow down to the speed of interest and see how the estimate varies. The
advantage of this approach is that there is no need to tell the meter
how many Wh/mi the vehicle consumes at any given speed, nor to assume
that that rate of consumption will always be valid for that speed, since
the guage would always update based on the actual rate of consumption at
the present speed. The disadvantage would be that if you are on a
surface street and wonder if you have enough range to hop on the freeway
for the next leg of your trip, you may not be able to accelerate up to
freeway speed to check the range remaining estimate without actually
committing to at least getting on the freeway and travelling to the next
exit.
One further complication is that a distance-to-empty indicator would
require that the guage have a speed sense input so that it knows what
speed the present consumption rate corresponds to.
A way around this would be to provide a 'time-to-empty' indicator
instead. Assuming the fuel guage has some idea of the actual or
available battery capacity remaining (kWh) and the present rate of
consumption (kW), it can easily estimate the time remaining at the
present rate of consumption. The user would have to perform the mental
step of translating a time-to-empty of 15min into being able to travel a
further 15mi at the present speed (rate of consumption) of 60mph, but
this might be an acceptable compromise to simplify the guage.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor stated:
> Most common way to avoid lethal voltages is to
> have an enclosed battery box containing ALL
> batteries, PLUS the contactors.
> Look at factory EVs and conversions.
Yeah? I'm looking at my factory EV right now [again, 1921 Milburn]. It has
a split pack.
Nearly ALL factory EVs prior to 1940 had split packs.
That would be well over 100,000 vehicles!
But I know what you mean: MODERN factory EVs.
I would question whether most "conversions" these days have all the
batteries in a single box. Certainly not most of them I've seen...
There's at least a substantial minority out there that find it beneficial
from a weight distribution and space availability standpoint alone to split
the pack.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The looks of this truck remind me of the French
Peugeot brand, although they never made a truck as far as I know.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:59 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: 1964 Nissan Sport Truck
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsea
rch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Fsofocus%3Dbs%26sbrftog%3D1%26from%
3DR10%26satitle%3D260039716151%26sacat%3D-1%2526catref%253DC6%26sargn%3D-1%2
526saslc%253D2%26sadis%3D200%26fpos%3DZIP%252FPostal%26ftrt%3D1%26ftrv%3D1%2
6saprclo%3D%26saprchi%3D%26fsop%3D1%26fsoo%3D1%26fvi%3D1&item=260039716151
No bids. Has a 1200cc motor. I think these are even lighter than the later
trucks. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's pretty obvious they ment 5kwh. 30 mile range and 5kwh in a Prius make
sense. Who would put a 5kw pack into a car? A 5kw pack of A123 would also be
extremely small for any amount of range, so then there would be no point.
Well, how I got that figure? Very simple. A 5kwh pack of A123 at 105wh/kg =
50 KG. A123 states a continuous discharge to 100% DOD can give 2700w/kg.
2.7kw * 50kg = 135kw. 135kw of power continuously. 175kw long pulse. That is
easily over 100 mph.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:45 PM
Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
How have you determined that?
The add doesn't say anything other than it's a 5kw pack. Maybe it's only a
single string. 5kw isn't enough to get a prius up to 100 mph, even if
it's electronics would allow it to go over 40mph (isn't that where the
computer turns on the ICE whether it's need or not?)
Maybe they meant 5kwh, who knows?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Presuming they get 20 amps out of each cell (based losely on stated
cycle life), that's 60w per cell with some voltage sag. 5kw/60 = 83
cells which equals 664wh at 8wh per cell. Clealy this would not give
them 30 miles range even at 40mph so they probably inteded to say 5kwh
pack size (600+ cells). A pack that size would be able to deliver
37kw at ~10C, that makes a lot more sense.
So 4 kilodollars / 600 cells = 6 bucks per cell. Pretty good price for
high power lithium!
Ebay price for dewalt packs are $100 for 10 cells, including bms and
packaging so $6 per cell is perhaps what dewalt pays for them as well.
-Peter
On 10/12/06, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> How much gas is a trickle?
> Well, depends how much acceleration you want. You could probably use no
> gas
> at all if you used gentle acceleration.
>
>> Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at
>> 30 MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
>> aerodynamics, etc.
> How do you figure that? A123 cells are extremely powerful, the pack has
> enough power to easily keep it over 100 mph.
How have you determined that?
The add doesn't say anything other than it's a 5kw pack. Maybe it's only a
single string. 5kw isn't enough to get a prius up to 100 mph, even if
it's electronics would allow it to go over 40mph (isn't that where the
computer turns on the ICE whether it's need or not?)
Maybe they meant 5kwh, who knows?
>
>> And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
>> miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
>
> How does it get 30 miles range?
> You said it yourself: "And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
> aerodynamics, etc."
>
> 5000wh / 30 miles = 166 wh/mile. Sounds about right for a Prius and the
> numbers I've seen. I'm sure this is not at some unreasonable speed. But
> the
> Prius motor won't go more than 45 mph or so, I think.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:20 PM
> Subject: RE: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>
>> The answer might lie in the vagueness of this claim.
>> How much gas is a trickle? Is that a metric trickle, or Imperial?
>>
>> Maybe this pack can barely supply enough power to keep the car moving at
>> 30 MPH on the level. And, this is a very efficient vehicle in terms of
>> aerodynamics, etc.
>>
>> And, what are the conditions that result in a range of 55 kM ( about 33
>> miles) ? Is it at low speed with a tailwind?
>>
>> This may be mostly advertising hype. It wouldn't be the first time.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> Get today's hot entertainment gossip
>> http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen a lot of talk in this thread about the superior handling abilities of
particular cars. I used to autocross in the SCCA years ago. The 914 in our
club would clean up every time, winning the overall against the Mustangs,
Supras, 3000GT VR-4s, RX-7s, and Corvettes (even though these cars were
considered to be in "better" classes). Must have been the superior low polar
moment of inertia (or maybe a better driver, or both).
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
.................except this isn't a full EV. Plug-ins generally wouldn't be
on the highway on battery power , anyway :-\
And your 40k is way off.
And your other figures as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
Its only 5 kilowatt. EV's normally are running 30 to 50 kilowatt or more
in battery power. This would require a $40,000.00 Li-Ion pack.
At 5 kw, I could only run my EV at 15 miles at a speed of 30 mph for 30
minutes.
At 60 mph, I am using 30.6 kwh. This would be about 8 minutes of driving
for about 5 miles with a 5kw pack.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
<[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:36 AM
Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
who are you talking to?
On 10/12/06, Dmitri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
.................except this isn't a full EV. Plug-ins generally wouldn't be
on the highway on battery power , anyway :-\
And your 40k is way off.
And your other figures as well.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> Its only 5 kilowatt. EV's normally are running 30 to 50 kilowatt or more
> in battery power. This would require a $40,000.00 Li-Ion pack.
>
> At 5 kw, I could only run my EV at 15 miles at a speed of 30 mph for 30
> minutes.
>
> At 60 mph, I am using 30.6 kwh. This would be about 8 minutes of driving
> for about 5 miles with a 5kw pack.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
> <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:36 AM
> Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>
>
>> In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
>> conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
>> System retrofit cost: $14,500
>> Installation time: 2 hours
>> Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
>> Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
>> Battery replacement cost: $4,000
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
>> replacement cost of only $4,000.
>>
>> If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
>> like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
>> down the Road
>> ...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
>> only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
>>
>> Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
>> --
>> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
>> Seattle EV Association
>> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
>> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
>> Day: 206 850-8535
>> Eve: 206 524-1351
>> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:39 PM
Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> .................except this isn't a full EV. Plug-ins generally wouldn't
> be
> on the highway on battery power , anyway :-\
>
> And your 40k is way off.
>
> And your other figures as well.
I can read the energy used on my General Electric EV meters and also from a
Link-10.
At 60 mph it displays 170 volts at 180 amps which is 30.6 kwr from a 49.9
kwr pack using a GE 11.5 inch traction motor with a gear ratio of 5.57:1.
How many $4000.00 Li-Ion Packs would it take to equal that?
Roland
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:15 PM
> Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>
>
> > Its only 5 kilowatt. EV's normally are running 30 to 50 kilowatt or
> > more
> > in battery power. This would require a $40,000.00 Li-Ion pack.
> >
> > At 5 kw, I could only run my EV at 15 miles at a speed of 30 mph for 30
> > minutes.
> >
> > At 60 mph, I am using 30.6 kwh. This would be about 8 minutes of
> > driving
> > for about 5 miles with a 5kw pack.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
> > <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:36 AM
> > Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> >
> >
> >> In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
> >> conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
> >> System retrofit cost: $14,500
> >> Installation time: 2 hours
> >> Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
> >> Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
> >> Battery replacement cost: $4,000
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
> >> replacement cost of only $4,000.
> >>
> >> If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
> >> like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
> >> down the Road
> >> ...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
> >> only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
> >>
> >> Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
> >> --
> >> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> >> Seattle EV Association
> >> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> >> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> >> Day: 206 850-8535
> >> Eve: 206 524-1351
> >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> .................except this isn't a full EV. Plug-ins generally
wouldn't be
> on the highway on battery power , anyway :-\
>
> And your 40k is way off.
>
> And your other figures as well.
>
I don't even know why he would comment - he doesn't want to give up on
watering and frequently checking the s.g. of his wet cells...but 5kwh
*would* be enough for most of his stated 5-10mi/day driving. Those
occasions when he would go beyond 15mi fall into the same argument ICE
drivers give for wanting every vehicle to go 300mi.
I don't think Roland does as much freeway driving as those of us who
commute to work daily - how many of us could make our round-trip with
more than 3 tons of EV and keep traffic off our rear bumper?! ;) At a
ton less, I think the Ranger is too heavy for my needs, but I'm one of
those lighter-is-better car drivers who believes trucks should be
reserved for times when you absolutely *need* a truck.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://youtube.com/watch?v=985zhLOo2XY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/12/06, Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Cor stated:
> Most common way to avoid lethal voltages is to
> have an enclosed battery box containing ALL
> batteries, PLUS the contactors.
> Look at factory EVs and conversions.
Yeah? I'm looking at my factory EV right now [again, 1921 Milburn]. It has
a split pack.
Nearly ALL factory EVs prior to 1940 had split packs.
That would be well over 100,000 vehicles!
But I know what you mean: MODERN factory EVs.
I would question whether most "conversions" these days have all the
batteries in a single box. Certainly not most of them I've seen...
My factory EV has 4 battery boxes, each has a fuse holder and a
matching non-fused link on the outside of each box, allowing full
isolation before you do any work such as disconnecting any cables.
This also has the benefit that if the cables are damaged or shorted
anywhere (e.g. in a crash), there's always at least one fuse in
circuit to prevent anything too bad happening.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Found some bars, 3/16 inch thick, 1 1/4 inches wide, 18 inches long, they seem
kind of thick to me but wanted to get your opinion, make good buss bars between
batteries?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch, not very flattering.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: GWiZ 5th gear review
http://youtube.com/watch?v=985zhLOo2XY
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This company claims to be able to develop a superior battery with
carbon-graphite foam plates (whatever that means):
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13137
<http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13137>
Short on any useful details however.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
See, they both desired to have fast EV's.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
I just look up the data on copper buss bars in a electrical handbook. Your
buss bar has a square section area of about 1/2 inch which has a
current-carrying capacity of 340 amps direct current based on 30 degree C.
rise at 20 degree C. ambient.
If your batteries are bolted down tight and tight together so they do not
move or press fit into a battery box container, you might be able to use the
buss bars.
At one time, I use 300 AH cells that had buss bars links. These cells were
inserted into a battery box tight together which was coated with General
Electric dielectric silicone compound, the same stuff that is use on spark
plug boots.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 4:30 PM
Subject: Buss Bars
> Found some bars, 3/16 inch thick, 1 1/4 inches wide, 18 inches long, they
> seem kind of thick to me but wanted to get your opinion, make good buss
> bars between batteries?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know you didn't ask me but here is something that might be helpful.
I'm using 3/4" wide, 1/8" thick copper for 250 amps peak at 300 volts.
they stay stone cold. 90% arrived plated. The bare copper bars are
coated in "NO-OX-ID A Special WW" due to the nicad pack. So far they
show zero corrosion. The plated bars arrived coated in something
similar to the "NO-OX-ID A Special WW". Stuff was $14 for a gallon,
which could be a lifetime supply.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Found some bars, 3/16 inch thick, 1 1/4 inches wide, 18 inches long,
they seem kind of thick to me but wanted to get your opinion, make
good buss bars between batteries?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, what's a kwr?
What kind of GE controller are you using that can do 170+ volts? Is it
stock or modified?
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>
>
>> .................except this isn't a full EV. Plug-ins generally
>> wouldn't
>> be
>> on the highway on battery power , anyway :-\
>>
>> And your 40k is way off.
>>
>> And your other figures as well.
>
> I can read the energy used on my General Electric EV meters and also from
> a
> Link-10.
>
> At 60 mph it displays 170 volts at 180 amps which is 30.6 kwr from a 49.9
> kwr pack using a GE 11.5 inch traction motor with a gear ratio of 5.57:1.
>
> How many $4000.00 Li-Ion Packs would it take to equal that?
>
> Roland
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:15 PM
>> Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>>
>>
>> > Its only 5 kilowatt. EV's normally are running 30 to 50 kilowatt or
>> > more
>> > in battery power. This would require a $40,000.00 Li-Ion pack.
>> >
>> > At 5 kw, I could only run my EV at 15 miles at a speed of 30 mph for
>> 30
>> > minutes.
>> >
>> > At 60 mph, I am using 30.6 kwh. This would be about 8 minutes of
>> > driving
>> > for about 5 miles with a 5kw pack.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
>> > <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:36 AM
>> > Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
>> >
>> >
>> >> In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
>> >> conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
>> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
>> >> System retrofit cost: $14,500
>> >> Installation time: 2 hours
>> >> Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
>> >> Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
>> >> Battery replacement cost: $4,000
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >>
>> >> I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery
>> pack
>> >> replacement cost of only $4,000.
>> >>
>> >> If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
>> >> like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the
>> Prius
>> >> down the Road
>> >> ...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
>> >> only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
>> >>
>> >> Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
>> >> --
>> >> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
>> >> Seattle EV Association
>> >> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
>> >> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
>> >> Day: 206 850-8535
>> >> Eve: 206 524-1351
>> >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps they are using a projected "6 year" from now price?
-Mike
On 10/12/06, Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion PHEV
conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was stated:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
System retrofit cost: $14,500
Installation time: 2 hours
Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
Battery replacement cost: $4,000
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery pack
replacement cost of only $4,000.
If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts would
like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the Prius
down the Road
...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Peter,
That should be KWH.
The GE indicators are special built by GE which has a circuit board bolted
across the meter terminals.
Using a modified Cableform 900 amp controller, the battery and motor ampere
are about the same at 60 mph using 300 AH cells.
I now use a Zilla which gives me 165 volts at 175 amps, which is the same
amp and volt rating of the GE motor.
The volt drop is 5 volts more with the 260 AH batteries I have now.
In about 5 years, I my want to go to a Li-Ion pack that will reduce my
weight by 1500 lbs, but has to be size right, so I can go at least one hour
at 50-60 mph.
By that time, there could be a new energy system that could be use.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> Hmm, what's a kwr?
>
> What kind of GE controller are you using that can do 170+ volts? Is it
> stock or modified?
>
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> >
> >
> >> .................except this isn't a full EV. Plug-ins generally
> >> wouldn't
> >> be
> >> on the highway on battery power , anyway :-\
> >>
> >> And your 40k is way off.
> >>
> >> And your other figures as well.
> >
> > I can read the energy used on my General Electric EV meters and also
> > from
> > a
> > Link-10.
> >
> > At 60 mph it displays 170 volts at 180 amps which is 30.6 kwr from a
> > 49.9
> > kwr pack using a GE 11.5 inch traction motor with a gear ratio of
> > 5.57:1.
> >
> > How many $4000.00 Li-Ion Packs would it take to equal that?
> >
> > Roland
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:15 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> >>
> >>
> >> > Its only 5 kilowatt. EV's normally are running 30 to 50 kilowatt or
> >> > more
> >> > in battery power. This would require a $40,000.00 Li-Ion pack.
> >> >
> >> > At 5 kw, I could only run my EV at 15 miles at a speed of 30 mph for
> >> 30
> >> > minutes.
> >> >
> >> > At 60 mph, I am using 30.6 kwh. This would be about 8 minutes of
> >> > driving
> >> > for about 5 miles with a 5kw pack.
> >> >
> >> > Roland
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR"
> >> > <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 9:36 AM
> >> > Subject: Very Reasonable - almost Unbelievable Cost on Li-Ion Pack
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> In a recent Post on CalCars-News, a review of a recent HYmotion
> >> >> PHEV
> >> >> conversion was reviewed. In it,the following information was
> >> >> stated:
> >> >> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> Info-box: A Hymotion plug-in Prius hybrid
> >> >> System retrofit cost: $14,500
> >> >> Installation time: 2 hours
> >> >> Battery: A123 lithium-ion, 5 kilowatt
> >> >> Battery life: 6 years, 3,500 charge/discharge cycles
> >> >> Battery replacement cost: $4,000
> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>
> >> >> I am questioning the LAST and most BOLD figure of a Li-Ion Battery
> >> pack
> >> >> replacement cost of only $4,000.
> >> >>
> >> >> If TRUE, I think hundreds, perhaps Thousands of EV Enthusiasts
> >> >> would
> >> >> like to purchase such a SET. A set Hymotion states will put the
> >> Prius
> >> >> down the Road
> >> >> ...." 55 kilometers on a single battery charge while using
> >> >> only a trickle of gasoline for acceleration "
> >> >>
> >> >> Can any one corroborate these figures..?? or is it a Mis-Print ??
> >> >> --
> >> >> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> >> >> Seattle EV Association
> >> >> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> >> >> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> >> >> Day: 206 850-8535
> >> >> Eve: 206 524-1351
> >> >> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, we know. It looks good, I'm waiting. A product is supposed to be out
in late 2007.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: Carbon-foam battery
This company claims to be able to develop a superior battery with
carbon-graphite foam plates (whatever that means):
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13137
<http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=13137>
Short on any useful details however.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do these batteries compare to Odyssey batteries?
http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
Curtis Muhlestein
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nobody knows yet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:59 PM
Subject: Power Technology
How do these batteries compare to Odyssey batteries?
http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
Curtis Muhlestein
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I realize you got an exact answer to your question from Ronald, But I
thought I would share this anyway. I had a similar question a while back and
ran across this buss bar DC amperage chart. It might be useful in the
future.
http://www.copper.org/applications/busbar/ampacity/busbar_ampacities.html
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV by
candle light.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Buss Bars
Found some bars, 3/16 inch thick, 1 1/4 inches wide, 18 inches long, they
seem kind of thick to me but wanted to get your opinion, make good buss
bars between batteries?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We are http://electricblue14.tripod.com we can convert any vehicle in about
2 weeks.If we have all the parts in front of us at the time.
Its a standard conversion, Air, power steering ,heat is extra. but its a
complete package for a base price ,out the door batteries and charger included.
We sell Net Gain motors do all our own machining for adapter plates,to fit any
motor to any trans. and motor mounts for any car/truck. All our work is done on
CNC machinery. We also make trans to motor couplers out of one piece of air
craft grade stock. We also paint the vehicles and letter them if the owner
wants it...Wayne & Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Down towards the bottom of page under Licensing Agreement:
"We do not intend to manufacture and sell our batteries. "
This sez it all.
Firefly battery technology is similar in that it is using carbon graphite nano
technology supposedly. As they don't actually have a product out yet there is
no independent testing yet. See www.fireflyenergy.com
Dmitri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Nobody knows yet.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein"
To:
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 8:59 PM
Subject: Power Technology
> How do these batteries compare to Odyssey batteries?
>
> http://www.pwtcbattery.com/technology/
>
>
>
> Curtis Muhlestein
>
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since his golf game was of much more importance than his children he could
have squished them into an even smaller bag. :-) Sorry, just my sick sense
of humor after watching an obviously and incredibly biased piece of work.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 4:05 PM
Subject: RE: GWiZ 5th gear review
Ouch, not very flattering.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 6:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: GWiZ 5th gear review
http://youtube.com/watch?v=985zhLOo2XY
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If your batteries are bolted down tight and tight together so they do not
> move or press fit into a battery box container, you might be able to use the
> buss bars.
The reason they need to be TIGHT is that if you use the buss bars, then the
battery posts that you attach them to will have to be SECURE. If they are not,
then the posts will vibrate and tear loose from the battery housing itself. You
cannot expect the battery posts to survive the bumps and shocks of normal
driving if the batteries themselves are not held in place very securely. Which
in turn can be problematic when the batteries swell with normal aging. They
might be so tight in their positions that you will have a difficult time
removing them.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
