EV Digest 6029
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Prestolite motor mods, pics
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" IN FULL on the WEB ! ! !
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Our business
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE:Current Eliminator News
by dm3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" IN FULL on the WEB ! ! !
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: WKtEC Bootleggers
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" IN FULL on the WEB ! ! !
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Solar cells
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Tesla monthly payments and depreciation
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Gliders
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) RE: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Small request
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Electrovair Corrections
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:48 AM 16/10/06 -0700, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey James
Sorry it took me so long to reply. I throw a big Halloween Haunted
house every year and this year I'm working with the local high school
theatre group for a whole new cast of minion 8^ ) I'll be in "freak
mode" the next few weeks.
Sounds like fun!
Anyway getting to the pics...
I see you went with the over / under brush leads I'm glad that worked
out for you 8^ )
Yup, but ended up extra-tight at the back, up against the casting. I had to
take a bit more out of the casting to clear it and ended up going through
the casting :^(
I should have taken them both "over" as there is enough space against the
fields opposite the terminals to have cleared... I think! Nothing nice as
your work, but then again, you've had more practice :^)
I did notice that on the one bend area you have a hole that is in a bad
area. I would have filled it with silver solder to strengthen it
up. Kind of cutting down it's ability to carry current being it's lost a
little mass in that area, maybe half!. Just a little observation I had,
hope you don't mind the input 8^ P
That's one of the things that happen when using secondhand material. I
compressed the length as I bent it, so it is not as bad as it looks, but by
the time I decided to fill the hole with it I'd have been melting the joint
off the brush holder. I expect to have the motor apart again before going
into the trike, so it may get dealt with anyway (more burnt fusa-fab!).
I've painted a few yellow motors now and I like it, although you'll
find they show the dirt a little easier.
Where it is planned to be sitting it should be kept reasonably clean, we'll
see.
Can't wait to hear how she works for you, so keep us posted 8^ ) Nice
to see another Presolite motor being saved from the scrap yard!
Every chance it would have ended up buried - the swampy land it was laid in
was being filled by the owner, probably it would have laid there until it
got buried (it was starting to hide in the reeds).
Anyway it looks pretty good (other than the hole thingy)
Hey, you ought to throw up a pic of yourself (and crew?) so those here
can put a face with the name. Keep up the good work.
I'll see what I can do.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
BTW: I was wondering how long you think it took you to complete the
upgrades??
I don't really know, as it was in bits and pieces of time, I'm guessing 8
to 12 hours. The inner and outer brush mounting rings were already rings
off parts of an electron microscope that I wrecked (here's a freaky bit,
the holes that bolted the two rings [actually flanges of larger parts]
together, lined up on the holes in the prestolite motor - exactly!). So I
didn't need to make the rings, but I did need to make a plate to bolt to my
dividing head to be able to bolt the motor end to, to be able to machine
the arcs. Since I did this upgrade as 'fun' rather than 'work' I was
playing with other things as I went, so was sidetracked a lot.
James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
G'day All
Finally got the Prestolite motor back together today. It was a compound
motor, now a 6-terminal giving access to shunt fields, series fields,
armature.
Pics start at:
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01?page=4 with the
pics that refer to dirt.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, Rich, but you've gotta look at the "revolutionary" new batts that are
coming down the line. One was posted today (on another site) that implies it
will carry a car 500 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes. Per my
calcs, we'll need several of these in the fueling station.
Apparently, per this article, Feel Good is talking about them. I assume it's
just hype, since the numbers are so far off (eg: comparing mileage of a
Smart sized car to an SUV.)
http://www.thelightisgreen.com/2006/09/ceramic_battery.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
> I got one O' them chargers...
>
> Think $0.50 per watt of power.
> So.. a 75Kw charger.. is $37,500 in rough numbers.
>
> So how many do you want??
>
> Bit chargers can be made.. the questions is who is going to buy them and
> install them, and maintain them? This level is pretty impressive... if all
> you have now is only 5Kw.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PG isn't a bad rating for any movie that makes you think. Young kids might
get the wrong idea and think EVs are actually possible... and then want to
build one.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" IN FULL on the WEB ! ! !
> On 16 Oct 2006 at 10:56, David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> > So are the crushed electric cars what made it PG?
>
> According to the listing at Video Universe, the rating is for "brief mild
> language," which strikes me as an odd reason to assign a PG rating. Heck,
> I use mild language almost all the time, in fact I'm generally pretty
mild-
> mannered, and nobody's yet rated >me< PG. At least not to my knowledge.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
The fact that the capacity is there, but not available at some higher
rate, is one of the weaknesses of using a simple Peukert's correction
to the ah discharge (the issue of what the user expects next.) Still,
a properly programmed e-meter doesn't do to bad.
Paul "neon" G.
I feel lost here, I guess it's all going over my head...
Let's say I have a 100Ah pack. And I have a Ah counter that is set to
read "F" when reset (charge cycle), and "E" when it's at -100Ah. Now say
this counter/meter uses a Peukert's correction to scale the display
based on my current amp draw. So, when I nail the throttle, the gauge
needle slumps down closer to "E", and when I let up on the pedal, it
raises up back toward "F".
If I place the throttle at 2/3 and leave it there (freeway hill), my car
will stop (low voltage cutoff) around when the needle reaches "E". If I
then lift the throttle to 1/3, the needle will climb back up and the car
will continue (at a slower speed) and stop around when the needle
reaches "E" again, right?
What exactly is wrong with this behavior?
If I'm putting around town, and I look down at the "gas" gauge to decide
if I should take the freeway home, I instinctively know how much the
needle will sag given the throttle pressure needed (since it does that
ALL the time, and people learn by immediate feedback quite readily).
Since the needle isn't far enough up to handle the sag my foot will
cause + the trip itself, I take the side streets that day.
The nice part IMHO is that it conditions you in the best way possible to
drive in a rang-extending (conserving energy) way. Coast along (or just
reduce your speed), and the needle picks up - as your available range at
that speed is increased. Zip around and it tells you how much more
zipping you can do before you have to chill out and drive like a grandma
to lift that needle up and get home... In other words, it accurately
tells you that you do not have enough Ah left to get home unless you
lift up on the throttle a bit. Which is correct, right? Of course this
is all assuming a analog-style display.
Maybe it's just me that finds this appealing, since I'm used to thinking
for my machines instead of the other way around. The machine should give
me immediate feedback on how my current operation of it is effecting it
(speedometer, for example). This enables me to correctly, effectively,
and wisely operate the machine in a safe and efficient manner.
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's where I think Roger Stockton's requested algorithm to Victor is
in error. That proposed that if Peukert's says a current level reduces
capacity by 50%, the meter should deduct any amp-hrs consumed at that
current times 2. That loss would persist even when lower current levels
are used. This does not seem to be a valid way to apply Peukert's nor a
scheme with any practical usefulness. It will erroneously report losses
in capacity that simply do not exist in the battery.
Danny
Paul G. wrote:
The fact that the capacity is there, but not available at some higher
rate, is one of the weaknesses of using a simple Peukert's correction
to the ah discharge (the issue of what the user expects next.) Still,
a properly programmed e-meter doesn't do to bad.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Much of it is over my head, also. I would hope for a unit that would tell
me, at current speed, how much range I have... and also show 2 other
readings... max range (lowest speed) I've done recently, and the other
end... perhaps reading out in miles. That could let me know if I should drop
off to the side roads, or if I can safely take the freeway.
Hopefully your system will kick off when you reach your lowest battery
operation. Hopefully it will also have some sort of warning before you reach
this. (No one wants to be going 20MPH down the shoulder of the freeway.) For
the life of your batts, hopefully you can set this warning high enough that
your batts will actually last. (You may drop your pack to a safe 11.5 V, but
it's possible one or more cells has dropped lower. Only overcharging is
harder on a pack, than taking it to its cutoff voltage, then feathering the
pedal to keep rolling.)
There's still a lot of guesswork in re: batts and their remaining life. Even
low speed vehicles exibit this... and the higher your potential speed the
worse it is. From full to 12V is most of your range... and below this is in
the reserve tank... running on fumes. Or so it seems to me.
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I feel lost here, I guess it's all going over my head...
>
> Let's say I have a 100Ah pack. And I have a Ah counter that is set to
> read "F" when reset (charge cycle), and "E" when it's at -100Ah. Now say
> this counter/meter uses a Peukert's correction to scale the display
> based on my current amp draw. So, when I nail the throttle, the gauge
> needle slumps down closer to "E", and when I let up on the pedal, it
> raises up back toward "F".
>
> If I place the throttle at 2/3 and leave it there (freeway hill), my car
> will stop (low voltage cutoff) around when the needle reaches "E". If I
> then lift the throttle to 1/3, the needle will climb back up and the car
> will continue (at a slower speed) and stop around when the needle
> reaches "E" again, right?
>
> What exactly is wrong with this behavior?
>
> If I'm putting around town, and I look down at the "gas" gauge to decide
> if I should take the freeway home, I instinctively know how much the
> needle will sag given the throttle pressure needed (since it does that
> ALL the time, and people learn by immediate feedback quite readily).
> Since the needle isn't far enough up to handle the sag my foot will
> cause + the trip itself, I take the side streets that day.
>
> The nice part IMHO is that it conditions you in the best way possible to
> drive in a rang-extending (conserving energy) way. Coast along (or just
> reduce your speed), and the needle picks up - as your available range at
> that speed is increased. Zip around and it tells you how much more
> zipping you can do before you have to chill out and drive like a grandma
> to lift that needle up and get home... In other words, it accurately
> tells you that you do not have enough Ah left to get home unless you
> lift up on the throttle a bit. Which is correct, right? Of course this
> is all assuming a analog-style display.
>
> Maybe it's just me that finds this appealing, since I'm used to thinking
> for my machines instead of the other way around. The machine should give
> me immediate feedback on how my current operation of it is effecting it
> (speedometer, for example). This enables me to correctly, effectively,
> and wisely operate the machine in a safe and efficient manner.
>
> ~ Peanut Gallery ~
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil, there was a recent post about Wayne's cars. There are three posted on
the evalbum.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: October 15, 2006 10:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Our business
Wayne -
What components do you typically use? ( motor, controller, batteries ( type
and number), charger, DC-DC converter (do usually use one?).
It sounds like you use rebuilt and/or upgraded Curtis controllers from
Logictech. Can you tell us which ones you use and your general experience
with Logictech?
And, what kind of instrumentation, if any, do you usually install? (
e-meter, ammeter, voltemeter, etc)
Last - maybe you posted the links and I missed them, but, do you have any
pictures of your conversions?
Thanks
Phil
>From: Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Our business
>Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:21:58 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Rod has written us ,saying we should share ideas and how we do things,,why
>not.
> I will let it up to you guys, you ask us a question, we respomd, its
>easier this way. It seems that theres just a few companys doing
>conversions latlely, I cant explaine that .but were doing OK and keep
>pushing them out as fast as we can make them. I can convert one in about 10
>days to 2 weeks, it takes that long because I have to wait for controllers
>that long. If I had all the parts in front of me, I probly get one out in a
>week. Even logicteck in Texas cant supply any controllers,at an "off the
>shelf" I talked to them,,they want a dead one to rebuild. A reason I have a
>few Boeing engineers looking at the idea. I built a bunch of conversions
>for people at Boeing in Wichits Ks.
>
> As for my experance,,I did my first conversion ,at the first oil
>embargo in the 70s. it was fast & dirty, but it worked. no frills no bells
>& whistles, 6 volt & 12 volt packed together. who cared?? not me,, it ran
>down the street, and thats all I was looking for.
> it didnt even have brakes. I just reversed the motor, useing everything
>from a 5,000 lb Clark fork lift.
> One of the reasons we sell so many conversions is ,,My sparkling and
>charming personality, the other reason,,were the cheapest in the industery
>10K$ out the door batterys and charger included,with a doner car,or I find
>one for you and bill you(,I keep the title till its payed)..So, ask
>away....Wayne
>
_________________________________________________________________
The next generation of Search-say hello!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLM
TAG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations Dennis on your achievements this year!! There are many of
us in the EV "club" that respect you for your capabilities and what you
have done with the CE series. You have truly earned the attention you
will get over the next year in the drag racing circuit. It will be great
to read the article in National dragster magazine.
Hopefully, this is just the beginning and we will see more EVs pushing the
envelope in other racing circuits (like a Tesla in NASA or SCCA).
Good Luck next year and keep up the good work.
Mario
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 17:26:07 EDT
> Subject: RE:Current Eliminator News
> To: [email protected]
>
> After a great season of racing the ice super pro drag cars at speedworld
> in Arizona to a 2nd place finish, the CE raced in the race of champions
>in Bakersfield,Ca to a 1st round lost.It was a close race against a
dialed
> 7.67 1200hp dragster from arizona.This was a car I have won against in
>the past and the driver and car were well prepared for me this time.He
had >a .005 reaction time to my .025.We both broke out but I by .002
more.Mike >Z who is the super pro champ at speedworld this year also broke
out in the >1st round by.004. When you get to this level of racing you
and your car >must be right on target and have a little luck. The hi
roller gambler >last thurs.eve started out great for the CE we won that
1st round with a >.001 reaction time and close to the dial but the next
rounds were rained >out.That round win and speedworld $ paid for most of
my trip. I will try >harder next year! NHRAs National Dragster took a
good interview with great >pictures that will be in an upcoming issue.We
are the 1st ever electric >car to qualify for the NHRA race of champions.
> I wish to thank Mark,Fran,Eric,Ken and Wanna for
> coming all the miles they did to support me. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you can't find EEStor on the web, are they a scam?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 8:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
Ah, Rich, but you've gotta look at the "revolutionary" new batts that are
coming down the line. One was posted today (on another site) that implies it
will carry a car 500 miles on a charge and recharge in 5 minutes. Per my
calcs, we'll need several of these in the fueling station.
Apparently, per this article, Feel Good is talking about them. I assume it's
just hype, since the numbers are so far off (eg: comparing mileage of a
Smart sized car to an SUV.)
http://www.thelightisgreen.com/2006/09/ceramic_battery.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 11:34 AM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
> I got one O' them chargers...
>
> Think $0.50 per watt of power.
> So.. a 75Kw charger.. is $37,500 in rough numbers.
>
> So how many do you want??
>
> Bit chargers can be made.. the questions is who is going to buy them and
> install them, and maintain them? This level is pretty impressive... if all
> you have now is only 5Kw.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the movie pre-ordered but if Chris needs the revenues from the DVD,
he should have thought about a different business model. It would have a
far bigger impact if the movie would be released under the 'Creative
Commons' license (maybe as a low-res, with a 'buy dvd' button), after all,
it is a (relatively) low budget production and has a very limited target
group. His message will not reach a broader group without the movie being
available on the net.
<flame on>
Its a SONY picture release and Sony isn't exactly known to be in any way
different in it's field of business as, say, GM.
Chris would have been able to avoid going into bed with some big business
guys, just by thinking, well, different. Michael Moore had no problems
with his movie being on the Internet ..
</flame off>
'nuff said.
Michaela
> It simply should not have been made downloadable, but the more people
> just watch it, the more effect it makes. If loosing revenue would be the
> primary concern, they easily could have it encrypted or playable only
> online with their player so download would make no sense. But I agree,
> best judge is your integrity and support for what's right thing to do.
> If people keep stealing this movie, Chris Paine (or someone else) will
> get discouraged enough to produce another one, so who wins at the end?
>
> Victor
>
> Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
>> While cool that we can see it, it appears to be an illegal up load.
> ...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome idea I will do that too mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: WKtEC Bootleggers
Thanks for posting this great recommendation. I routinely buy movies on
subjects such as sustainability, transportation and peak oil and donate
them to our local library through my organization, Environmental
Transportation Options.
Roderick Wilde, Director
Environmental Transportation Options
www.etoptions.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: WKtEC Bootleggers
Here's an idea. How about buying two copies and giving one to your local
library? I borrow movies
from the library on a regular basis, and I bet a lot of other folks do
too. This would give the
movie more visibilty and a larger audience.
Dave Cover
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I hope they recoup their money from the sales of DVDs. I know that most
EVers will purchase them. My hope is that at some point this movie will
be
put up legally so that those who live in countries that will never show
it
will have a chance to see it. I think that would help increase DVD sales
to
other countries. It's just my opinion of course. I have not funded a
study
to prove it :-)
Roderick Wilde
--
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10/14/2006
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In fact I have already pre-ordered it from Amazon. Not purchasing a
legal copy prevents future investment in similar venue. If we the EV
enthuist want to get the real message across, we can not support
illegal copies of copywrited material that was not freely broadcast by
the producers. It would be like taking Otmars Zilla apart and copying
it and selling it for $500.00 less. Or Rich Rudman PFC. Rich and Otmar
support the list by making EV products. If say Toyota grabbed up
Rich's PFC charge to build plug in Hybrid for example but paid Rich
nothing for the design. How would we feel as a community. So lets not
download unless you plan on buying it yourself anyway.
>
>
I have my preorder in with Amazon, but I had the site play on IE in a
minimized window while doing other things with Firefox, then went to
IE's temp files and saved the .flv file and then used FLVPlayer to
watch it for the first time (you can do this with other google video
files, too). I guess I just couldn't wait, but also I look forward to
owning it and being able to loan it to others.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Company unveils new solar cells with 22% efficiency, about 50% more than
> conventional. Sweet!
> http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/061016/sfm089.html?.v=66
Cool...but it's not that big of a breakthrough...
Solar Raycers have used SunPower's 20%+ efficiency A-300 cells for at least
2 years now but the high cost ($7.50/watt+) and historic limited
availability (3-6mo leadtime last I checked---2005) has made justifying
their use a tough call. The best solar raycer teams justify the cost since
solar real estate on a 70mph solar endurance race car is limited. This is
not the case with most homes with solar exposure. Most are concerned about
keeping the $/watt low.
Still, increasing efficiency from 20 to 22% is a 10% relative performance
gain for SunPower's cells, which is great.
-Myles Twete, Portland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would you guess the monthly payments on this car would be?
How well will this car hold it's value? If you bought one and decided
to sell it six months later; how much do you think it would sell for?
As the years roll on; what amounts?
Those are my concerns with this $80k black box.
Though, their target market could likely be the types who could drop
$80k and not even notice...(or care to pick it up if you catch my
drift).
Considering an $80k car and monthly payments, T-Zero's and Fetish's
should be on the market. Lease them for $300 a month. Everyone and
their dog would have one.
Could you make money if you leased EV's at the rate of $300/month?
Even an AGM T-Zero should really be available. Crank em out...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
Much of it is over my head, also. I would hope for a unit that would tell
me, at current speed, how much range I have... and also show 2 other
readings... max range (lowest speed) I've done recently, and the other
end... perhaps reading out in miles. That could let me know if I should drop
off to the side roads, or if I can safely take the freeway.
I just like the idea of a simple analog-readout, user resettable, Ah
counter-based "fuel" guage with Peukert's correction for the *current*
amp draw. Combine that with an adjustable low voltage cutoff (I would
think that you would REALLY want that in an EV controller), and I would
be a happy clam.
But then again, I prefer driving simple (re: older) cars with no cruise
control and plenty of feedback in the suspension, steering wheel, and
pedals. I do know I'm in the minority there ;-)
Hopefully your system will kick off when you reach your lowest battery
operation. Hopefully it will also have some sort of warning before you reach
this. (No one wants to be going 20MPH down the shoulder of the freeway.) For
the life of your batts, hopefully you can set this warning high enough that
your batts will actually last. (You may drop your pack to a safe 11.5 V, but
it's possible one or more cells has dropped lower. Only overcharging is
harder on a pack, than taking it to its cutoff voltage, then feathering the
pedal to keep rolling.)
I would propose that it should be in the controller's (or BMS) domain to
keep my batteries from getting pummeled. A dedicated add-on (or simple
buzzer + dash light) can sometimes achieve the same thing for those that
don't. I do like having my machines tend to there own safety whenever
possible (antivirus anyone), but not to my convenience.
There's still a lot of guesswork in re: batts and their remaining life. Even
low speed vehicles exibit this... and the higher your potential speed the
worse it is. From full to 12V is most of your range... and below this is in
the reserve tank... running on fumes. Or so it seems to me.
Setting such a Ah counter-based guage to a conservative pack capacity
(or it could just do what many ICE cars do, "E" represents a safety
margin and it will go lower if pushed) would seem prudent. So if I spin
in "100" on the rotary dials on the back, "F" = 0 and "E" = -80.
Does it really need to be more complicated then that?
A 2D display like the dual crossing needle movement brought up on the
list previously *is* intriguing and potentially very handy (Amp/Volt/SOC
meter in one, kinda)... but I'd rather not have my car trying to predict
things. I like to drive vehicles, not just ride along in them - LOL
~ Peanut Gallery ~
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> And AGMs are expensive. Screw up your AGM pack, and it's a much
> harder hit. When I was looking at setting up an AGM pack (2 144V
> strings of Optima YTs in parallel), it would've cost me $3000 for
> just the batteries, not to mention new racks, charger(s), and
> DC-DC converter, so maybe $5000 or more for the upgrade. I bet
> at least another $1K for miscellania. And I get to replace a
> pack every three years, although I know some people go far
> longer, but they don't screw up their packs like us beginners.
> If I'm spending about 10cents/mile for floodeds, give or take a
> few pennies, AGMs are going to be about three times that much.
> I'm not going to do that just to make my right foot happy.
>
> Chuck
>
One reason the Ranger uses SLAs is the "sealed" battery container, but
they also use a very sophisticated BMS and take very good care of each
battery (heated, fanned, practically fed peeled grapes). If I go with
the 12V "upgrade" to UB121100 batteries, it will cost $3K in
present-day dollars and last another 20-25K mi - nothing else but some
resistors and wire for the different battery voltage (12V replacing 8V).
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> FYI,
> My US Electricar S10 has a complete VIN and it is titled
> "USELE" with fuel "E" (Electric)
> and insured as S-10 having a 4-banger, based on the VIN...
>
Man, those [EMAIL PROTECTED]@rd$! Titling your truck "useless", then dropping
off
the S's to cover it up?!
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Hello Myles
>From everything I have read these are to be only 95% saturated for the
starved acid effect. Also they are under pressure to help recombine the H2O. If
not under pressure claim battery will not work or as well.
Have you found out different information? I have some 70 Ah Hawkers but have
not taken that close a look or used them yet.
Don
In a message dated 10/16/2006 3:23:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> You may be able to add water to overcharged VRRs with a hack, but you'll
> never be able to use the single most accurate method of determining state
of charge.
Hawker Genesis AGMs don't require a hack...just snap the top off and water
the 6 cells with a syringe...very easy. It would be nice to be able to
check the charge state though.
One thing I wondered this past week (as I rewatered the 70ah Hawkers in the
1921 Milburn) is the extent to which the water self-wicks to all the areas
in the cell, or if there's value in rewatering, then flipping the battery
over to allow the water to distribute itself to areas of the cell that it
doesn't when oriented in its usual way. When I've woken up gel cells, I
noticed that under wakeup charge, the upper portion of the battery cells
gets warm/hot first, so, I flipped the battery over (since heat rises) and
found that it seemed to help spread the heat of reaction up into the
sulfated sections and get the battery to mix things up better.
Similarly, it seems that in rewatering, rotating the battery might help
better distribute the new water if some sulfation has been has occurred in
spots.
-Myles
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Danny Miller wrote:
Sorry for the delay responding; your questions required more thought
than I could muster after midnight... ;^>
> Peukert's does not calculate capacity based on the
> history of the rates of discharged current. It's
> actually a measure of how much current can be drawn
> for the current state of charge.
Actually, it does/is neither ;^>
> Taking your initial data for Peukert's, my calculations:
> The battery can only supply 300 amps for 87.6 a-h.
> Another way of stating this is that the battery can only
> supply 300 amps as long as the charge state has over 584
> a-h in it. Right?
I had to think about this for a bit, but no, I believe it is wrong.
> That's why an e-meter compensating for Peukert's MUST go
> up when you start driving lighter.
Where I think you are coming from is the commonly stated view that the
battery contains some finite, fixed amount of capacity and that Peukert
simply predicts how much of those Ah may be extracted at a given
discharge rate. Using values from my example, this view predicts that
if my T105 has a capacity of 129.7Ah @ 100A, and 87.6Ah @ 300A, then if
I remove 86.7Ah at 300A the battery will be 'dead', but I could then
reduce the discharge rate to 100A and extract (nearly) 129.7-87.6 =
42.1Ah more.
The problem is that after doing so the battery will again be 'dead', yet
I could reduce my discharge rate to 50A, and remove a further 36.4Ah
before the battery is again 'dead'. Is it dead yet, Jim? ;^> Nope;
Peukert would have us believe that if I reduce my discharge rate to 1A
I could remove an additional 505.5Ah before the battery is again 'dead'
(in reality there is actually no way I could get close to the Predicted
671.6Ah from a T105 at any discharge rate).
So, you can see the problem is that the capacities predicted by Peukert
are not absolute, they are only meaningful in the context of a specific
discharge rate.
What this intuitively results in is a fuel guage that behaves as you
(and I originally) suggested: if the guage shows Peukert's prediction
of the capacity remaining available at the present discharge rate, then
the needle will dance around as the discharge rate varies. As I
initially discharge at 300A, 'F' on my guage corresponds to 87.6Ah, and
after consuming 35Ah at this rate the needle indicates 60% remaining.
I then decrease the discharge rate to 100A; at this reduced rate 'F'
corresponds to 129.7Ah, so the needle imediately jumps upward to 73%
(100% * (129.7-35)/129.7).
The alternative approach I suggest results in a guage that doesn't jump
around as the discharge rate varies.
What my example suggests is that since we can only discuss the battery
capacity meaningfully if we state/assume some discharge rate at which
that capacity is observed, then we should choose *some* discharge rate
and use the Peukert-predicted capacity corresponding to it as our
reference full capacity for our fuel guage. For convenience I used the
C/1 rate, but I have not done any analysis to try to determine if there
would be any advantage to using some other rate's capacity for the
guage reference. Since the available capacity of real batteries
doesn't tend to increase signiifcantly at discharge rates lower than
the C/20 rate, it may be advantageous to use a reference capacity based
on a discharge rate in this ballpark.
The thing to remember is that Peukert is simply an empirically-derived
equation for a simple curve that approximates the observed variation in
usable capacity from a lead acid battery at different discharge rates.
How we might use that information, and whether that use is valid
depends entirely upon whether the end result is valid.
Lee tells us that the E-Meter does actually implement its fuel guage in
a manner similar to what I describe (the fuel guage does *not* jump
aroung with variations in discharge rate, yet is Peukert-corrected).
That the E-Meter is widely considered to be about the most accurate EV
fuel guage presently available appears to confirm the validity of this
approach, however, it doesn't mean that there isn't room for
improvement!
Cheers,
Roger.
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Stefan T. Peters wrote:
I just like the idea of a simple analog-readout, user resettable, Ah
counter-based "fuel" guage with Peukert's correction for the *current*
amp draw.
Anderson Power Products made a clever analog amphour counter. The patent
has now expired, so perhaps it should be resurrected.
It used the principle of having one small-capacity lead-acid "test" cell
that mirrors the pack as a whole. An opamp measures the main pack
voltage, and applies a precise fraction of its voltage to the test cell.
For example, a 144v pack has 72 cells; so it applies 1/72nd of the pack
voltage to the test cell.
It's very hard to accurately measure the current in/out of a big, high
current pack. But it's easy to measure the current in/out of the little
test cell. You can have a high-resistance shunt, which produces a large
voltage drop, which is easy to measure without offsets, thermal drift,
and other sources of error. So, they measured the test cell's SOC, and
inferred the main pack's SOC from it. For example, if the main pack is
100ah and the test cell is 1ah, then they multiplied by 100.
The actual product implementation worked, but was flawed. Somebody got
the bright idea of substituting an electrolytic capacitor for the test
cell. They have somewhat similar characteristics to a lead-acid cell, so
it sort-of worked. It worked better than an expanded scale voltmeter,
but not by much.
But you could ressurect the idea, but use a very small lead-acid cell or
battery as your test sample.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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> So please, rather than simply dismissing ideas as ludicrous or asinine,
> explain why they won't work. Help us. Or don't, if you want to keep this
> list exclusive to the "old-timers".
>
OK, let's drop off the "batteries have to last 5 years" idea first,
since the only way lead will do that is if you drive a few thousand
miles a year, and NiMH just aren't made in large sizes since Chevron
bought out the patent.
How many pounds *can* a 914 handle before it folds in half? A quick
browse of converted Porsches
(http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/type/PORS) shows folks can get away
with 120V (>1200lbs) of floodies and get 50mi range on average.
But golf-cart batteries don't relish the high currents of
"performance" use, and you don't want to water floodies anyway, right?
Neither do I, so let's consider SLAs, since lithium costs more than
your entire budget. One of those conversions has 16 Optimas, gets
50mi, and can hit 100mph, another has 20 Orbitals, maxes at 120mph,
and can go 22mi (if he's "good"), while a third has 24 Optimas, rev
limited to 75mph, and can go 63mi. That last one has ~1100lbs of SLA,
and has probably used nearly all the car's available space for batteries.
So, can a Porsche 914 go 100 miles with a comparitively cheap battery
pack? Yes, as long as you drive 45-50mph, on a level road, with no
headwind. That's not what you were looking for, but that's what the
numbers show. Pony up enough for a fancy lithium pack, and you might
as well buy a lightweight kitcar with custom frame and, by cutting
down on weight and aero drag, use a smaller pack...but then, there is
debate that lithium cells might die based on calender life *before*
you use up their cycle life, so we might still have to drop the
5-years-no-battery-exchange wish.
So, I say do the conversion, but choose only a couple items from the
wish list - I'd vote for maximum fun with no thought for range (Zilla,
SLAs, Netgain or WarP motor).
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Danny Miller wrote:
That's where I think Roger Stockton's requested algorithm to Victor is
in error. That proposed that if Peukert's says a current level reduces
capacity by 50%, the meter should deduct any amp-hrs consumed at that
current times 2. That loss would persist even when lower current levels
are used. This does not seem to be a valid way to apply Peukert's nor a
scheme with any practical usefulness. It will erroneously report losses
in capacity that simply do not exist in the battery.
Although that is rather close to what the E-meter actually does, and it
does indeed work out pretty well in practice!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> > Funny you should say that, as I *am* running an SCR controller in
> > my EV, and haven't noticed this effect at all. The only related
> > problem I've noticed is that the throttle seems to go from 0 to 2-3
> > instead of smoothly up from 0 to 1 (on a scale of 1-10, 10 being
> > full throttle)
>
> That is probably the same effect.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it is mostly sticktion in the throttle
linkage/GE potbox.
The EV-1 controller has the behaviour you describe, with a fixed on-time
at low duty, and a fixed off-time at high duty such that the switching
frequency varies from about 50Hz at either extreme to about 300Hz at 50%
duty.
As I've gotten more used to the throttle (and have learned to start in
2nd), I can fairly easily either ease into it such that the car eases
forward as slowly and smoothly as one could ask for, or if I overshoot
the optimum throttle position it is always possible to back off
gradually to whatever arbitrarily low duty cycle I want. Either way, I
swear one can achieve such a low throttle command that it is essentially
possible to count the individual pulses applied to the motor! ;^>
It appears that due to the GE's potbox being 5K-0 rather than the more
conventional 0-5k it will be possible to add a resistor in parallel with
the pot to make it less linear in the proper direction as to require a
bit more pedal travel at low throttle to generate a given command. This
should make the throttle less sensitive by reducing the magnitude of the
initial throttle command when the pedal is pressed.
> Some of the old SCR controllers made the off-time so long
> that the frequency was very low in the audio range.
> Sometimes so low that you could hear them "growl" or even
> go "putt-putt-putt" a few times per second, as if the car
> was being pushed by little hammer taps rather than smooth
> torque. You had to depend on the mass of the motor, flywheel,
> and car itself to make these torque pulsations acceptable.
Yes, this describes the GE EV-1 behaviour to a 'T', however, my
observation is that there is *no* noticable torque pulsation. My car is
about 2000lbs, and uses the stock Chevy Sprint clutch/flywheel (not
exactly a particularly large or massive assembly) attached to an ADC8"
motor, so it would seem that it does not take particularly much effort
to completely mask/tame these pulsations in practice.
Cheers,
Roger.
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