EV Digest 6034
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a car?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Good batteries exist now, and in use (question regarding optima
statement)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to
a car?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
by "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a car?
by "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OEM ELECTRIC HEATER
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9' motor to a
car?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a car?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OEM ELECTRIC HEATER
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: OEM ELECTRIC HEATER/fuse spec
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Interesting article on the Hydrogen Economy
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Electrolux url's not working. Can someone figure it out?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> So in this case, getting an EV to drive like an automatic ICE is
impossible
> without using an automatic transmission?
>
> I guess I'm curious as to if you can drive an EV like driving an
automatic
> ICE, practically never worry about shifting and take on anything
(from going
> 75 on the interstate to taking a steep Portland hill on at 30 mph).
>
> Start to wonder if it would be better off to have a Warp 9" instead...
>
If you really don't want to shift, go with AC, or get a Z2K to feed a
DC motor (or two).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I do se the LSD as useful in San Francisco
>> driving..
Though it's been quite a while, I always found LSD to make driving much more
interesting, no matter where I drove- and I'm sure SF is no exception.
In light of the increased transit time, however, it's usefulness is open for
debate:^O
Marv
> From: MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 16:49:40 -0700
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
>
> It's no MINI, I have an S, but even with stock setup the Yaris
> handles quite well. Toyota racing makes the LSD for the Vitts which
> is the Yaris in Japan. I do se the LSD as useful in San Francisco
> driving..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 17, 2006, at 2:10 PM, martin emde wrote:
Can you please explain why the optima yellow top is not a good choice
for an EV?
Optima YTs are an excellent choice for an EV, as many list members can
attest. They are higher performance and more expensive than the
competing flooded golf-cart batteries, but if you want a quick, clean
EV that doesn't need much battery maintenance and you don't mind paying
extra, than the YT is a good way to go. (The Exide Orbital is very
similar to the Optima YT.)
I believe what Doug meant was not "Optima YTs are no longer good for
use in an EV." He's probably talking about Optima YTs that have
already lived a long and full life in an EV and are no longer good
enough for use in an EV (i.e capacity is too low), but would work fine
in other applications, like a starter battery in an ICE car.
Did that make any sense? It sounded good while I was typing it but
reading it afterwards I'm not so sure....
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: doug korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Oct 14, 2006 5:13 PM
Subject: Good batteries exist now, and in use
To: [email protected]
For example, an Optima "Yellow Top" (YT) battery which is no longer
good
for Electric cars will still work for decades in a normal SLI
application.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or just use a motor that's big enough.
My Sparrow uses an 8" ADC, and has no transmission. Top speed of
70mph on a 1500lb vehicle.
At 09:33 PM 10/17/2006, Death to All Spammers wrote:
> So in this case, getting an EV to drive like an automatic ICE is
impossible
> without using an automatic transmission?
>
> I guess I'm curious as to if you can drive an EV like driving an
automatic
> ICE, practically never worry about shifting and take on anything
(from going
> 75 on the interstate to taking a steep Portland hill on at 30 mph).
>
> Start to wonder if it would be better off to have a Warp 9" instead...
>
If you really don't want to shift, go with AC, or get a Z2K to feed a
DC motor (or two).
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a series circuit, the ampere is the same through all devices. If the
device is a current carrying conductor the amperes is the same and voltage
is about the same in with a millivolt.
If the device is a load such as a heater, lamp, resistance, the ampere is
still the same, but then the voltage drops or is divided between the loads.
For example, you can put two 120 volt lamps of the same wattage in series
and connect 240 volts across the two lamps. You will read 120 volts at each
lamp. If each lamp is 120 watts, than 120W/120V = 1 amp.
Two lamps is 240W/240V is still 1 amp.
Resistance or inductive loads drops the voltage. The contactor is a like a
conductor with very little voltage drop.
In our electrical installation of very large motors, we use two or three
magnetic motor starters (like contactors with overloads) that are 3 pole
contactors. In this case all the poles are buss bar together and operated
by one common coil per three contacts.
The problem at times in using separate contactors, is that even it looks
like the contactors may close at the same time, one may close a millisecond
before the other which may take all of the current carrying load. This
causes increase maintenance in replacing or reshaping these contacts more
often.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:52 PM
Subject: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
Hi all,
I think I heard somewhere before that you can put two contactors in series
to do something... would that be to handle a larger current load? E.g. if
you were using contactors rated for 250 amps could you put 2 of them in
series to handle 500 amps?
Thanks so much for all your help!
-Adan
Lewis & Clark College
Portland, Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have to point out people are calling something Peukert's which is not
Peukert's. Somebody need to make up a name for this algorithm because
it's something different.
The stoplight thing- as well as general capacity- becomes much more
correct if a speedometer is included. That would mean you don't
increase capacity by sitting for awhile. Driving slowly will increase
capacity- which is accurate.
This thing about "good behavior" for a meter. It's not the meter's
behavior. It's the battery's behavior. I see the difficulty that
creates and all, but I just don't see the logic in providing fake
readings so people will think the battery acts like a fuel tank.
Really you need at least 2 numbers. One is ultimate capacity, one is
capacity at current consumption level. Or one thing that comes to mind
is a bar graph, one showing the actual amp-hrs remaining and the second
data item is a pointer showing where the bottom of the battery is for
the current discharge level.
Danny
Paul G. wrote:
The e-meter implements Peukert correction to the current amp draw and
does this several times a second to subtract the result from the
available capacity (for % of charge calculation.) First it needs the
batteries Peukert's capacity, which it can create when you enter the
batteries 20 hour capacity and the Peukert's exponent of your battery.
This capacity is, in theory, the number of hours your battery could
deliver 1 amp (amp hours at one amp.) The actual amps you are drawing
are raised by the Peukert's exponent and the result is subtracted from
the Peukert's capacity (or some alternate way to do the same thing.)
So the percent of charge only goes down.
You stop at a stop light and your capacity reads full because you can
go for days at that rate? I don't think this would be good behavior!
HTH,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys are always so awesome at answering questions!
Thanks a ton, I'm feeling like I'm understanding the concepts around
contactors more now.
-Adan
Lewis & Clark College
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
In a series circuit, the ampere is the same through all devices. If the
device is a current carrying conductor the amperes is the same and voltage
is about the same in with a millivolt.
If the device is a load such as a heater, lamp, resistance, the ampere is
still the same, but then the voltage drops or is divided between the
loads.
For example, you can put two 120 volt lamps of the same wattage in series
and connect 240 volts across the two lamps. You will read 120 volts at
each lamp. If each lamp is 120 watts, than 120W/120V = 1 amp.
Two lamps is 240W/240V is still 1 amp.
Resistance or inductive loads drops the voltage. The contactor is a like a
conductor with very little voltage drop.
In our electrical installation of very large motors, we use two or three
magnetic motor starters (like contactors with overloads) that are 3 pole
contactors. In this case all the poles are buss bar together and
operated by one common coil per three contacts.
The problem at times in using separate contactors, is that even it looks
like the contactors may close at the same time, one may close a
millisecond before the other which may take all of the current carrying
load. This causes increase maintenance in replacing or reshaping these
contacts more often.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:52 PM
Subject: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
Hi all,
I think I heard somewhere before that you can put two contactors in series
to do something... would that be to handle a larger current load? E.g. if
you were using contactors rated for 250 amps could you put 2 of them in
series to handle 500 amps?
Thanks so much for all your help!
-Adan
Lewis & Clark College
Portland, Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why would a Zilla or AC be able to help get around shifting? I'm really
curious.
Do Zillas just provide enough power to skip over the need for shifting?
-Adan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a
car?
So in this case, getting an EV to drive like an automatic ICE is
impossible
without using an automatic transmission?
I guess I'm curious as to if you can drive an EV like driving an
automatic
ICE, practically never worry about shifting and take on anything
(from going
75 on the interstate to taking a steep Portland hill on at 30 mph).
Start to wonder if it would be better off to have a Warp 9" instead...
If you really don't want to shift, go with AC, or get a Z2K to feed a
DC motor (or two).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric conversions that use a manual transmissions do not need a clutch. It
can be removed and in place a direct connection can be made. A lovejoy coupling
should be used. It is a hard rubber connection so that there is a little give
when the motor starts.
And if need be, the transmission can be shifted while moving for either a lower
or higher gear.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
Mark wrote
> Yes- on tran, need the flywheel for the clutch...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NOTE that with contactors (and switches and breakers) for EVs
you can often load them higher than their continuous rating
because the peak load is often applied for a short period
and the average load is much lower.
For example in my S10 truck the battery box is equipped with
a double pole switch to disable the pack voltage when working
on the vehicle.
This switch is only rated for 100A continuous IIRC while the
controller can pull 250A.
You will need to make sure the contacts are clean though,
because over the years the oxidation can dramatically
increase the contact's resistance. My switch needed a good
cleaning to avoid that several tens of Watts were generated in
the dirty contact's resistance.
I have a 250A breaker that says it will open at 313A and I
know that it has been run in EVs that can pull well over 400A
without nuisance trips. Again - as long as the continuous current
is lower than the rated 250A.
To get a higher voltage rating, you can use a switch or contactor
that has two contacts and wire them in series.
Parallel switching is much trickier, because small differences
in resistance can cause the current to "hog" one circuit, overload
it and blow it, after which the remaining one also goes.
One of the ways to make it work is if you already have
parallel circuits somewhere in your system.
For example if you have two battery strings then instead of
joining them by wire and hooking two parallel switches
contacts up to the joint, you can hook each string to one
switch contact and use the other side of the two switches
as the place to join them.
This would even allow you to charge them separately by hand.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Adan Vielma
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 10:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
You guys are always so awesome at answering questions!
Thanks a ton, I'm feeling like I'm understanding the concepts around
contactors more now.
-Adan
Lewis & Clark College
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
> In a series circuit, the ampere is the same through all devices. If the
> device is a current carrying conductor the amperes is the same and voltage
> is about the same in with a millivolt.
>
> If the device is a load such as a heater, lamp, resistance, the ampere is
> still the same, but then the voltage drops or is divided between the
> loads.
>
> For example, you can put two 120 volt lamps of the same wattage in series
> and connect 240 volts across the two lamps. You will read 120 volts at
> each lamp. If each lamp is 120 watts, than 120W/120V = 1 amp.
>
> Two lamps is 240W/240V is still 1 amp.
>
> Resistance or inductive loads drops the voltage. The contactor is a like a
> conductor with very little voltage drop.
>
> In our electrical installation of very large motors, we use two or three
> magnetic motor starters (like contactors with overloads) that are 3 pole
> contactors. In this case all the poles are buss bar together and
> operated by one common coil per three contacts.
>
> The problem at times in using separate contactors, is that even it looks
> like the contactors may close at the same time, one may close a
> millisecond before the other which may take all of the current carrying
> load. This causes increase maintenance in replacing or reshaping these
> contacts more often.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:52 PM
> Subject: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
>
>
> Hi all,
> I think I heard somewhere before that you can put two contactors in series
> to do something... would that be to handle a larger current load? E.g. if
> you were using contactors rated for 250 amps could you put 2 of them in
> series to handle 500 amps?
>
> Thanks so much for all your help!
> -Adan
> Lewis & Clark College
> Portland, Oregon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> I have to point out people are calling something Peukert's
> which is not Peukert's. Somebody need to make up a name
> for this algorithm because it's something different.
While it might be true that the algorithm deserves a name, it is quite
correct that the algorithm is described as using Peukert's exponent and
the relationship/equation Peukert proposed that relates usable capacity
to a specific discharge rate.
> The stoplight thing- as well as general capacity- becomes
> much more correct if a speedometer is included. That would
> mean you don't increase capacity by sitting for awhile.
> Driving slowly will increase capacity- which is accurate.
I'm not sure I follow why you think a speedo signal is required. The
approach that results in a guage that jumps up when the discarge rate is
reduced, does so immediately upon the change of discharge rate. The
guage wouldn't jump or creep upwards at all while sitting stopped; it
would have jumped up when the throttle was initially released.
> This thing about "good behavior" for a meter. It's not the meter's
> behavior. It's the battery's behavior. I see the difficulty that
> creates and all, but I just don't see the logic in providing fake
> readings so people will think the battery acts like a fuel tank.
That's an interesting perspective. The challenge is definitely how to
*represent* the battery's peculiar behaviour in a manner that is useful
and easily understood by Joe Average. Nobody should have to become a
battery expert just to be able to use an EV. At this point, the
instrument all drivers are familiar with and understand is the ICE
vehicle's fuel guage. It isn't at all about providing "fake" readings,
but rather rising to the challenge of *mapping* the peculiar behaviour
of our lead acid battery onto the simple and intuitive status display
behaviour of an ICE fuel guage like instrument.
> Really you need at least 2 numbers. One is ultimate capacity,
> one is capacity at current consumption level.
Perhaps. I think Victor makes a good point that ultimately EV drivers
don't care about Ah or Wh, etc., they just want to know how far they can
drive.
> Or one thing that comes to mind is a bar graph, one showing
> the actual amp-hrs remaining and the second data item is a
> pointer showing where the bottom of the battery is for the
> current discharge level.
Another interesting idea!
I would counter with the suggestion that perhaps a single
'distance-remaining-to-empty' type guage could be sufficient: while
driving, have the guage display the estimated distance remaining at the
present rate of consumption. After the vehicle has been parked for some
length of time (short enough for the guage to change level at a
stoplight?), the display is updated to show the distance remaining at
the average rate of consumption over the present trip (or some portion
of it?). My reasoning is that while driving you don't really care about
how much you have used up; you only care about what remains, so distance
remaining at the present rate of consumption is quite useful
information. The usual problem with such a guage is that when you first
hop in the car you have no indication of how much range remains "in the
tank" until you start driving, however, this seems to be covered if the
guage indicates the distance remaining based on the last trip's average
discharge rate.
I'm sure others have some interesting guage/display proposals to
share...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
An interesting topic!
MARK DUTKO wrote:
To clarify- there is an electric 12v heater next to the ac condenser
in the cabin so that when the engine is cold you can get hot air in
the cabin until the car warms up to supply the normal cabin heat.
This heater is part of a "cold weather package" for certain US
markets. So when the engine coolant is cold and can't supply heat to
the cabin, the 12v heater warms the cabin initially.
I've wondered for years now, why this feature hasn't been offered in
newer vehicles sold in cold weather areas before. Relying on just 12V,
it couldn't be a 'killer' heater of say 2000 watts, and most likely
isn't even a 1500 watt heater, but I bet they could do an 1100 watt unit
fairly easily. If the heater can't be switched-on until the gas engine
is started, then it could rely on the bump up from 12V battery level
power to 14+V from the alternator. 14V X 80 amps for example, would be
1120 watts...enough to make substantial heat you could feel right away.
Most new cars have at least a 100 amp alternator, many have 120 amp
models. A 120 amp alternator has enough capacity that it could give 40
amps to replenish the juice taken out of the battery for cranking and
also run headlights right initially after start-up, while 80 amps would
be left-over and available to run the heater core. Better still though,
would be a 150 amp alternator with 50 amps to recharge and run stuff
right after start-up and 100 full amps for 1400 watts of instant heat.
Of course, another way to go would be a second 120 amp alternator. Now
that, would be nice! 120 amps X 14V is 1680 watts! A second alternator,
bracketry and cables might add another 20 lbs. to the car, but if it's 0
degrees outside, man, that would be worth it.
I don't think it's a viable alternative to simply running a higher
voltage rated ceramic element or two, directly off the EV's high voltage
pack as most EVers do. It's hard enough to get a good 50 amp DC-DC. let
alone one that can put out 100-120 amps, thus an 80-100 amp load on an
EV's DC-DC converter would be impracticle and not as energy efficient.
For gas and diesel powered vehicles that take a while to warm up
however, it's sure a welcome idea. The diesel service truck I use every
day in my forklift wrenching work situation takes forever to make decent
heat, and on c-cold mornings while waiting and waiting and waiting for
heat to be available, it would be nifty to instead, simply kick on a 12V
based heater element in the air stream flow of the factory heating
system for some instant heat!
Mark, if you find the specs of this Toyota 12V factory electric assist
heating element (probably ceramic), I and others would be very
interested to find out what kind of wattage it's rated for @ 14V.
I bet, that with this special cold weather package, the car comes with a
stouter higher output alternator so there's enough juice to feed the
heating element. I'll also bet that there is a thermal cut-out based on
the warmed-up ICE coolant, so that once the ICE has enough heat
available, the electric mode goes dead to give the alternator a break
from near max output. It will be interesting to hear more.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure you can build a single speed EV, but there are problems.
You have to gear it so that you can reach your desired top speed without
over revving the motor. Then you need to pick a motor/controller/battery
combo than can deliver high enough torque to the wheels, when geared this
way, to climb EVERY hill that you will need to.
With series wound motors, this generally means a larger motor, and more
powerfull controller, than you would need if you used a multi-speed
transmission.
Many of the AC motor/controllers have very high max RPMS (often above
10,000), this lets you use a pretty high reduction ratio and you can often
get away with a smaller motor than the above series motor. However, in
order to get decent torque at these high RPMs you need to run a fairly
high pack voltage (often over 240 Volts).
Efficiency will likely be a wash. You can save a few percent by using a
sigle reduction transmission, but you pay for it by often running the
motor at a less efficient RPM.
Oh yeah, if you are using a series wound motor, then you have to rewire
the motor to go in reverse, if you want to back up. This requires a
double-pole/double-throw contactor, or something similar. These can be
pretty expensive.
Most AC controllers have reverse built in.
> So in this case, getting an EV to drive like an automatic ICE is
> impossible
> without using an automatic transmission?
>
> I guess I'm curious as to if you can drive an EV like driving an automatic
> ICE, practically never worry about shifting and take on anything (from
> going
> 75 on the interstate to taking a steep Portland hill on at 30 mph).
>
> Start to wonder if it would be better off to have a Warp 9" instead...
> -Adan
> Lewis & Clark College
> Portland, Oregon
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 8:42 PM
> Subject: Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a
> car?
>
>
>> You've asked a contradiction there:
>> ADC motors are good to close to 6K.
>> 6K RPMs in the average vehicle will take you to
>> perhaps 62.
>> To get to 70, you'll need 3rd.
>> In addition, there might on occasion be an extra steep
>> hill where you want 1st.
>> As a result, most EVers use a taperlock hub attached
>> to the manual tranny's flywheel.
>> My DVD has a good 5 minutes on the process.
>> peace,
>>
>> --- Adan Vielma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I'm working on plans for an electric car and was
>>> wondering if you would be so kind as to help me with
>>> this question.
>>>
>>> I was wondering what is the best way to connect an
>>> ADC 9" motor to the power train that would give you
>>> the most efficiency without having to shift gears
>>> while driving?
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for all your help with this! I'm
>>> looking to get many inputs on this one as I know
>>> there are pros and cons to every different way of
>>> powering a car.
>>> Have a wonderful day!
>>> Sincerely,
>>> Adan Vielma
>>> Lewis & Clark College
>>> Portland, Oregon
>>
>>
>> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
>> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
>> Learn more at:
>> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
>> ____
>> __/__|__\ __
>> =D-------/ - - \
>> 'O'-----'O'-'
>> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
>> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>>
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adan Vielma wrote:
> Why would a Zilla or AC be able to help get around shifting?
With a fixed reduction (single speed tranny), you need to gear such that
the motor will not over-rev at your desired top speed. Typically this
results in something like trying to drive around in 3rd or 4th gear.
You can do it if the motor can develop enough torque at low speeds that
you can climb hills and accelerate, etc. Torque is proportional to
current, so a controller that delivers more current to the motor will
result in more torque. Zillas (1K & 2K) are the controllers with the
highest current ratings around.
AC gets around the issue because while our common DC motors top out
about 6000RPM, the AC motors tend to be capable of 9500-12000RPM. This
means that for the same top speed at redline, the AC motor can be used
with a gear more like 2nd instead of 3rd or 4th as with a DC motor.
Since a lower gear is used, the motor doesn't have to be capable of
producing as much torque at low speeds; the lower gear (higher
numerically) results in greater torque multiplication.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd be careful about trying this.
Contacts in series can handle higher voltage...IF they are part of the
same contactor (i.e. two contacts with one coil)
Using two separate contactors, however, can be dangerous. I can pretty
much guarantee that two separate contactors will open/close at slightly
different times. One will be a little bit quicker than the other.
If they are in series when one opens before the other, then it is trying
to break the ENTIRE voltage, not half of it. If it't not rated for this
voltage, then it will probably arc and possibly weld shut.
If you have two separate contactors in parallel, then when one opens
early, the OTHER one is carrying the ENTIRE current and might fail when it
tries to break the current.
> You guys are always so awesome at answering questions!
> Thanks a ton, I'm feeling like I'm understanding the concepts around
> contactors more now.
> -Adan
> Lewis & Clark College
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:48 PM
> Subject: Re: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
>
>
>> In a series circuit, the ampere is the same through all devices. If the
>> device is a current carrying conductor the amperes is the same and
>> voltage
>> is about the same in with a millivolt.
>>
>> If the device is a load such as a heater, lamp, resistance, the ampere
>> is
>> still the same, but then the voltage drops or is divided between the
>> loads.
>>
>> For example, you can put two 120 volt lamps of the same wattage in
>> series
>> and connect 240 volts across the two lamps. You will read 120 volts at
>> each lamp. If each lamp is 120 watts, than 120W/120V = 1 amp.
>>
>> Two lamps is 240W/240V is still 1 amp.
>>
>> Resistance or inductive loads drops the voltage. The contactor is a like
>> a
>> conductor with very little voltage drop.
>>
>> In our electrical installation of very large motors, we use two or three
>> magnetic motor starters (like contactors with overloads) that are 3 pole
>> contactors. In this case all the poles are buss bar together and
>> operated by one common coil per three contacts.
>>
>> The problem at times in using separate contactors, is that even it looks
>> like the contactors may close at the same time, one may close a
>> millisecond before the other which may take all of the current carrying
>> load. This causes increase maintenance in replacing or reshaping these
>> contacts more often.
>>
>> Roland
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 9:52 PM
>> Subject: Can 2 x contactors be put in series to handle more current?
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>> I think I heard somewhere before that you can put two contactors in
>> series
>> to do something... would that be to handle a larger current load? E.g.
>> if
>> you were using contactors rated for 250 amps could you put 2 of them in
>> series to handle 500 amps?
>>
>> Thanks so much for all your help!
>> -Adan
>> Lewis & Clark College
>> Portland, Oregon
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was worth a try- I'll se if I can get the specs- here is a pic of
the heater config at the top of the pictures page (crude)
electricyaris.com
On Oct 17, 2006, at 10:40 PM, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
An interesting topic!
MARK DUTKO wrote:
To clarify- there is an electric 12v heater next to the ac
condenser in the cabin so that when the engine is cold you can
get hot air in the cabin until the car warms up to supply the
normal cabin heat. This heater is part of a "cold weather
package" for certain US markets. So when the engine coolant is
cold and can't supply heat to the cabin, the 12v heater warms the
cabin initially.
I've wondered for years now, why this feature hasn't been offered
in newer vehicles sold in cold weather areas before. Relying on
just 12V, it couldn't be a 'killer' heater of say 2000 watts, and
most likely isn't even a 1500 watt heater, but I bet they could do
an 1100 watt unit fairly easily. If the heater can't be switched-on
until the gas engine is started, then it could rely on the bump up
from 12V battery level power to 14+V from the alternator. 14V X 80
amps for example, would be 1120 watts...enough to make substantial
heat you could feel right away. Most new cars have at least a 100
amp alternator, many have 120 amp models. A 120 amp alternator has
enough capacity that it could give 40 amps to replenish the juice
taken out of the battery for cranking and also run headlights right
initially after start-up, while 80 amps would be left-over and
available to run the heater core. Better still though, would be a
150 amp alternator with 50 amps to recharge and run stuff right
after start-up and 100 full amps for 1400 watts of instant heat. Of
course, another way to go would be a second 120 amp alternator. Now
that, would be nice! 120 amps X 14V is 1680 watts! A second
alternator, bracketry and cables might add another 20 lbs. to the
car, but if it's 0 degrees outside, man, that would be worth it.
I don't think it's a viable alternative to simply running a higher
voltage rated ceramic element or two, directly off the EV's high
voltage pack as most EVers do. It's hard enough to get a good 50
amp DC-DC. let alone one that can put out 100-120 amps, thus an
80-100 amp load on an EV's DC-DC converter would be impracticle and
not as energy efficient. For gas and diesel powered vehicles that
take a while to warm up however, it's sure a welcome idea. The
diesel service truck I use every day in my forklift wrenching work
situation takes forever to make decent heat, and on c-cold mornings
while waiting and waiting and waiting for heat to be available, it
would be nifty to instead, simply kick on a 12V based heater
element in the air stream flow of the factory heating system for
some instant heat!
Mark, if you find the specs of this Toyota 12V factory electric
assist heating element (probably ceramic), I and others would be
very interested to find out what kind of wattage it's rated for @ 14V.
I bet, that with this special cold weather package, the car comes
with a stouter higher output alternator so there's enough juice to
feed the heating element. I'll also bet that there is a thermal cut-
out based on the warmed-up ICE coolant, so that once the ICE has
enough heat available, the electric mode goes dead to give the
alternator a break from near max output. It will be interesting to
hear more.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It looks like it has two feeds one with a 40A and one with a 30A
fuse- 2-stage I guess...
On Oct 17, 2006, at 10:40 PM, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
An interesting topic!
MARK DUTKO wrote:
To clarify- there is an electric 12v heater next to the ac
condenser in the cabin so that when the engine is cold you can
get hot air in the cabin until the car warms up to supply the
normal cabin heat. This heater is part of a "cold weather
package" for certain US markets. So when the engine coolant is
cold and can't supply heat to the cabin, the 12v heater warms the
cabin initially.
I've wondered for years now, why this feature hasn't been offered
in newer vehicles sold in cold weather areas before. Relying on
just 12V, it couldn't be a 'killer' heater of say 2000 watts, and
most likely isn't even a 1500 watt heater, but I bet they could do
an 1100 watt unit fairly easily. If the heater can't be switched-on
until the gas engine is started, then it could rely on the bump up
from 12V battery level power to 14+V from the alternator. 14V X 80
amps for example, would be 1120 watts...enough to make substantial
heat you could feel right away. Most new cars have at least a 100
amp alternator, many have 120 amp models. A 120 amp alternator has
enough capacity that it could give 40 amps to replenish the juice
taken out of the battery for cranking and also run headlights right
initially after start-up, while 80 amps would be left-over and
available to run the heater core. Better still though, would be a
150 amp alternator with 50 amps to recharge and run stuff right
after start-up and 100 full amps for 1400 watts of instant heat. Of
course, another way to go would be a second 120 amp alternator. Now
that, would be nice! 120 amps X 14V is 1680 watts! A second
alternator, bracketry and cables might add another 20 lbs. to the
car, but if it's 0 degrees outside, man, that would be worth it.
I don't think it's a viable alternative to simply running a higher
voltage rated ceramic element or two, directly off the EV's high
voltage pack as most EVers do. It's hard enough to get a good 50
amp DC-DC. let alone one that can put out 100-120 amps, thus an
80-100 amp load on an EV's DC-DC converter would be impracticle and
not as energy efficient. For gas and diesel powered vehicles that
take a while to warm up however, it's sure a welcome idea. The
diesel service truck I use every day in my forklift wrenching work
situation takes forever to make decent heat, and on c-cold mornings
while waiting and waiting and waiting for heat to be available, it
would be nifty to instead, simply kick on a 12V based heater
element in the air stream flow of the factory heating system for
some instant heat!
Mark, if you find the specs of this Toyota 12V factory electric
assist heating element (probably ceramic), I and others would be
very interested to find out what kind of wattage it's rated for @ 14V.
I bet, that with this special cold weather package, the car comes
with a stouter higher output alternator so there's enough juice to
feed the heating element. I'll also bet that there is a thermal cut-
out based on the warmed-up ICE coolant, so that once the ICE has
enough heat available, the electric mode goes dead to give the
alternator a break from near max output. It will be interesting to
hear more.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
>From Slashdot
(http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/10/17/0440204&from=rss)
Popular Mechanics magazine takes a look at how the hydrogen economy
would work.
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4199381.html
A well though out article that covers the production, storage,
distribution and use of hydrogen.
Ob.EV content - they talk about the feasibility of fuel cell cars,
which, as we all know are EVs :-)
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
7 april 2006
.New refrigerator factory opens in Mexico http://ir. electrolux.
com/files/press/electrolux/200507012062en2. pdf 22 juni 2005 Electrolux
Outdoor in cooperation with Firefly Energy on new battery technology
http://ir. electrolux. com/files/press/ electrolux/200506222037en2. pdf
2006-05-0210 juni 2005 Electrolux Professional Indoor products.
http://www.electrolux.com/Files/IR/AGM_2006/Arlig_rapport_offentliggjord_information.pdf
Score:
38%
Date:
2006-05-05
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--- Begin Message ---
Just my opinion (based on rear wheel drive LSD)
I think that for standard urban driving in slippery conditions, std diff
is far safer than LSD.
Consider a loss of traction event - accelerating too hard on a slippery
surface (eg first couple of minutes of rain after a dry spell)
A RWD car with standard diff will only spin one wheel. The other will
keep the car pointed in approximately the right direction.
A RWD car with LSD will spin both rear wheels, giving it all the
directional stability of an unpiloted supermarket trolley. Since we know
that slippery stuff on roads is notoriously uneven, the wheels lose
traction at slightly different times, resulting in a net sideways force.
(This keeps getting better doesn't it?)
Combine this with the common situation of stopping and turning at an
intersection (acceleration plus change of direction within a limited
timeframe) and it becomes a recipe for disaster :-)
There are some situations where LSDs are very useful such as racing and
off-road driving, but normal urban driving is not one of them.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marvin Campbell
>
> > I do se the LSD as useful in San Francisco
> >> driving..
>
> Though it's been quite a while, I always found LSD to make
> driving much more
> interesting, no matter where I drove- and I'm sure SF is no exception.
>
> In light of the increased transit time, however, it's
> usefulness is open for
> debate:^O
>
> Marv
--- End Message ---
