EV Digest 6038
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: OEM ELECTRIC HEATER/fuse spec
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Clutch, was: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) What's Gadget up to?
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a car?
by "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: 250 amp breaker poping
by "Rick Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a car?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OEM ELECTRIC HEATER
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Server stuck, was: article: Mitsubishi unveils new electric car p
rototype
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Fuel gauge Peukert correction, was: lee's emeter companion?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: NiMH Battery Pack from Prius Batteries
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: What's Gadget up to?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9' motor to a
car?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) E-Meter Question 500A Shunt Zilla 1K
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: E-Meter Question 500A Shunt Zilla 1K
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: E-Meter Question 500A Shunt Zilla 1K
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
NOTE that there is a difference (conflict if you will)
between window defrosting and a nice fot stream of air.
For quick window defrosting, a large flow of air is
needed and as long as it is a little drier (or warmer)
than ambient, it is perfectly OK to absorb moisture
from the window and even at 60 deg it is perfect to
get a frozen window thawed.
You actually do not want to have scorching hot air on
your frozen window, as it can easily case a crack, as
you often see in taxis that have meters or other equipment
sitting on top of the dash, against the windshield.
This blocks the flow of warm air in some spots, creating
large temperature differences.
Ever tried to pour boiling hot water in a cold soda glass
(it must be glass!) Many times you will have a separated
bottom and wall "cylinder" because the difference in
thickness makes one expand while the other is still the
original size - crack!
However, when you send a large volume of 60 deg air into
your face, you won't be very happy long.
Reduce the air volume and allow the tiny heater a bit
more time with the air to heat it to 80 or 90 deg and
suddenly it is a very comfortable (but much smaller)
stream of air.
Whether you direct it at your feet, hands or face is
up to you. It will take a while to warm up the cabin
with this amount of power, so you may want to dress
warm anyways.
I know of Porsche drivers that use a lap blanket,
I do not know if this is an electric 12V plug-in or
just wool. (Yes, this is about EV Porsches as the
ICE version has more than enough waste heat.)
My truck does not have a noticeable heating system,
so I park it in the garage and dress the same as
when I go outdoors.
Luckily I am also in the SF Bay Area, otherwise this
may have been on the top of my priority list.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:17 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OEM ELECTRIC HEATER/fuse spec
Point taken- Thanks,
On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Phil Marino wrote:
> Mark wrote:
>
>
>>
>> When the car was cold did it give adequate heat- remember it's a
>> little warmer here, except in the summer!
>>
>
> It really isn't very noticeable ( My other two ICE Echos also have
> this same aux 12V heater element). It does seem that the heater air
> isn't as cold as it would be otherwise for the first couple of
> minutes, but I wouldn't want to rely on it for heat or defrosting.
>
> One of the reasons it's difficult to tell is that the ICE engine
> does heat up very quickly because it's so small.
>
> In my conversion I put in a pack voltage PTC element from KTA, and,
> depending on the heater fan speed, it draws about 1250 watts max.
> ( It's not on the road yet, but I've tested the heater in the car
> with an external 105V DC source).
>
> And, even that is not an impressive amount of heat compared to
> original heating in an ICE car. I would guess that the 1250 watt
> heater is about 1/4 ( or less) of the original heater's max
> output. So, 500 watts would be at most 10% of the original
> heater's power. Not much.
>
> Phil
>
>> Mark- SF
>> On Oct 18, 2006, at 7:26 AM, Phil Marino wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> My 2001 Echo had a PTC aux heater (probably the same as the
>>> Yaris- it's really the same car with some sheet metal changes).
>>>
>>> It was fed through a dedicated 50 amp fuse, and controlled by a
>>> 40 amp relay. So, it most likely draws less than 40 amps max.
>>> (13.5 V * 40 amps = 540 watts). So, it's not a lot of heat, but
>>> can help defrost the windshield as you're starting out.
>>>
>>> According to the wiring manual, it comes on when ALL of the
>>> following are true:
>>>
>>> 1. The engine coolant temp is below a certain temp.
>>>
>>> 2. The engine RPM is above a minimum RPM - and has been for 5
>>> seconds or more, continuously. (This is to make sure you the
>>> alternator can keep up with the current draw)
>>>
>>> 3. The heat control is on max.
>>>
>>> 4. The heater blower is on.
>>>
>>>
>>> As far as other cars having this feature - maybe they do and it's
>>> a well-kept secret. My 2000 Echo has this also, so it's not new.
>>>
>>> Until I took the Echo apart, I had no idea that it had this
>>> extra heating element. I've never seen it in any ad or
>>> description of the car. And, it never occured to me when
>>> driving the car ( before its conversion) that it had this. At
>>> the time, I just though it heat up quickly because it has such a
>>> small engine.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get today's hot entertainment gossip http://movies.msn.com/movies/
> hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a smart thing, as I read the other day that
SF has some streets with 31.5% incline. Pretty hard to
get started if you do not have a low gear.
My single-gear truck would not be able to make it uphill
on such an incline, so it is good I live just beyond range...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
Im retaining the clutch for inexperienced drivers and I will be using
various gears in the city for very steep hill parking, using reverse
as I don't want reversing contactors.
Mark
On Oct 18, 2006, at 9:24 AM, Rush wrote:
> Phil is perfectly right. A member of our group has a clutchless
> conversion and it takes him a couple seconds to shift.
>
> On my conversion I'll have a clutch cause I can just imagine myself
> at a light and this little tricked out honda is next to me, the
> light changes and I take off, up shift, look in my rear view mirror
> and he is just starting off the line at the light.... yeah
> right... 4800 lb S10 conversion...<G>.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
>
>
>>
>> Clutchless conversions don't work well for everyone.
>>
>> Although I've never done it myself, several people have reported
>> ( on this
>> list) that they were not happy with a clutchless car that they had
>> to shift.
>> Try shifting your ICE car without using the clutch. It can be
>> done, but
>> it's VERY slow, takes a lot of concentration, and likely wears the
>> heck out
>> of the synchros.
>>
>> Granted, there's less rotating inertia with the electric motor
>> than the
>> original ICE engine. but the same problem apparetly exists.
>>
>> Unless you're racing, the added flywheel/clutch inertia wouldn't
>> make much
>> difference. And, if you are racing, you want to be able to shift
>> quickly,
>> right?
>>
>> Phil
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now that I have a little time to reply. The press
release with Advanced batteries has to do with
developing a battery system with integral BMS, based
on their lithium polymer cells. Also having them
produce a battery in a form factor that is already
popular. These cells have a capacity of 150 amp hours.
they are working on a cell with higher c rating.
their current rating is 3c. Their american partner is
Altair Nanotechnologies. I'm waiting to find out if
they will handling the new Nanosafe batteries. Once we
have the BMS worked out we will be selling these cells
along with some other chemistries.
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I guess just taking a car like a 2002+ Toyota Corolla that has manual (I
believe 5sp or something?)
and then just keeping the whole stick shifting would be what to do?
Although when driving it, I guess you would stick it in a gear you're
driving like shift into 3rd when on the highway and just keep it there until
you're going up some steep slope.
I wonder if there's an easier way to convert a Corolla or another car like
the Honda Civic and offer at least 2 gears to shift between.
-Adan
Lewis & Clark College
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 10:16 AM
Subject: Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a
car?
Hi Adan,
I live in Seattle, and probably have the same type of hill issues you
man encounter down there. I have an 8" ADC, and 120v system, with a
Curtis controller (This is not what you are thinking about, but stick
with me).
Having driven around here for about 6 months, both in low speed hill
areas, and high speed I-5, I'm not sure if trying to make a one gear
EV with any kind of performance is practical, especially if you want
some range as well as a top speed of 70.
If it is possible it will probably cost way more than you are willing
to spend. With my setup (in a 1974 Celica), you could probably get
away with only using 2nd and 3rd gear. If you wanted to keep your
speed under 50mph, 2nd would be no problem, except for really steep
hills, in which case you really want the option of 1st.
I have been thinking a lot about my next EV, and want to go the direct
drive route. I am thinking about going AC, and limiting myself to a
top speed of 50mph (because it will only be driven up in the San Juan
Islands). I'm sure this would also be feasible on DC, but I also want
regen due to the large amount of hills in the area.
On 10/18/06, Adan Vielma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'm wondering if anyone on this list knows anyone else is driving with an
EV
stuck in 3rd gear and getting considerable performance?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is based on using any 3 Pole breaker in a DC application
-Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 11:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 250 amp breaker poping
so send the Bat+ through twice, and the Bat- one time?
Is this based on using a 400amp?
--- Rick Todd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The proper way to wire a three phase breaker for up to 500VDC
> application is the following Now this doesn't go for all breakers but
> most of them are this way.
> ________
> | |
> | |
> | +Bat | -Bat
> | | | |
> | )----)----)
> | | | |
> | | | |
> |___| |LOAD|
>
> -Rick
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike golub
> Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:31 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: 250 amp breaker poping
>
> ah, can you explain wiring in series?
>
> do mean just use one "leg" of the 3-gang breaker?
>
> --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Michael I use a 3 phase AC breaker, purchased from
> a demolition
> > outfit. I have been told by electrical engineers
> that the DC rating
> > of an AC breaker is 1/3 the AC rating, so just get
> a 400A 3 phase
> > ganged breaker and run your cable series through
> the breaker. In my
> > case, I have my 3 phase breaker split the pack
> into lower voltage
> > subpacks - but I have a 312V pack.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > see the New Beetle EV project
> > www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of mike golub
> > Sent: October 17, 2006 6:25 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: 250 amp breaker poping
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > I have this 86 toyota PU running with a 9"warp, a logisystem
> > controller 1209 at 550amp/120v, and 20 6volt sam's club batteries.
> >
> > Only using a 250 amp breaker, but it seems to pop
> to
> > frequently. Even though
> > my emeter says I'm at 150 it can pop.
> >
> > Perhaps I should upgrade with 4 more batteries, becuase I have a
> > 144volt controller.
> >
> > But is there a cheap place to get a 400amp
> breaker?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Michael Golub
> > Fairbanks
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
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>
>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Adan Vielma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: What's the most efficent way to connect my ADC 9" motor to a
car?
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 13:20:33 -0700
So I guess just taking a car like a 2002+ Toyota Corolla that has manual (I
believe 5sp or something?)
and then just keeping the whole stick shifting would be what to do?
Although when driving it, I guess you would stick it in a gear you're
driving like shift into 3rd when on the highway and just keep it there
until
you're going up some steep slope.
I wonder if there's an easier way to convert a Corolla or another car like
the Honda Civic and offer at least 2 gears to shift between.
-Adan
Lewis & Clark College
Leaving the transmission in IS easy. Taking it out ( and providing an
alterntate way to get power to the front wheels without the transmission)
would be hard. And, when you leave in the tranny, you get 5 forward gears,
and 1 reverse for free.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Try the next generation of search with Windows Live Search today!
http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark and all,
EV-Battery.com responding per question below:
--- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can you give us some more details about these packs?
We will post results and photos at www.EV-Battery.com
as we receive and analyze results, probably updating
the websites about every five days.
> What does the BMS do?
> (From simple V monitoring to fully temp compensated
> V and I monitoring with over-charge regulation and
> over-discharge protection...)
Our first batteries are the 12 volt gasser batteries
that require different BMS from stacked EV packs. The
bigger switch-out packs (79.2V) will have BMS monitors
that monitor voltage on each stack of eight paralleled
cells. If this stack voltage gets too high, then it
places a 3.3 ohm resistor across the stack,
discharging the excess energy.
> Can the BMS communicate with an external (to the
> batt) device?
> (Like a charger, fuel gauge, or logging computer)
Three different sets of alarms are combined into
slow-down or stop alarm signals. First, if the
voltage of a stack climbs dangerously high, an alarm
is indicated which should be used to throttle the
charger down to about one amp. A second alarm is sent
if the stack voltage falls dangerously low, indicating
the stack is out of charge and the load should be
reduced or stopped. A third alarm source is the three
temperature sensing thermistors in each module.
Thresholds can be set for each of the BMS modules
three thermistors. If any temperatures get above
their individual threshold, the alarm will again be
signaled. All these alarms are indicated by turning
on an opto-isolator on the BMS module. Because
they're optoisolated, all the BMS modules in a pack
can
have their alarm signals wire-ORed in parallel to
create one pack alarm signal.
> Do you have photos of a completed pack?
> (Lots of 3D mock-ups in your photo gallery)
There are already some photos of our first gasser (12
volt motorcycle batteries and 12 volt car batts)
already there. Keep in mind that these are intended
to be gasser replacement batteries targeted to the
custom car and motorcycle show vehicles. Users are
trying to stay away from acid damage to their
expensive paint jobs and vehicles that sit for months
(sometimes years) without driving. Many vehicles are
primarily artistic and concept vehicles. Many of them
would like to replace a 45 pound bulky battery with a
1 pound motorcycle battery or a 5 pound auto battery
that can hide safely anywhere in any position. The
motorcycle builders are talking about putting
batteries inside their frames like a flashlight. The
car guys are talking about a recessed floorboard mount
with water cooler style lid. They are interested
because there is no bulging, venting, toxic fumes,
explosive, or fire dangers.
We also realize that gasser batteries are not the
focus of the EV List. So now, we have commitments to
supply a few race cars (including Le Mans), and other
traditional gassers with these first batteries. After
gasser success, we will sell them to people that use
them in electric vehicles, BUT we are going to be very
careful that we only supply educated builders with
logical applications within reasonable specifications.
We are not ready to promote mainstream EVers to use
our batteries (as series or parallel packs) until we
are sure of performance and safety. We will not make
the switch-out battery pack & case available to the
general public until it is ready. We only have so
much manufacturing ability and will restrain ourselves
from claims of a universal solution.
> How are the individual cells interconnected?
> (Is it possible to replace dud cells?
All battery cells are spot (high amp) welded with a
pull test and ohm resistance test on each connection
prior to grouping (to include connectors to buss bars)
and final enclosure in a rigid non-conductive box
(including the gasser batteries). The cells are
suspended within the box on all corners allowing space
on sides of at least 1/4 inch. The cell groups are
connected directly to the heavy copper buss bars. The
buss bars ARE the battery posts eliminating other
resistance and areas of concern or corrosion. We will
position side or top posts at any location, position,
or angle. Our warranty will cover individual cell
replacement at no cost to the user (except freight).
Freight is moderately reduced for five pounds instead
of transporting forty-five pounds. Because of the
tested safety of the batteries, there is no
restrictions against airline freight.
> How hot does everything get under heavy load?
> (How long at what amps? Does it shut down at
> dangerous levels? Is there an warning alert?)
A123 testing and opinions of the experts, pioneers,
and racers have made us believe we are probably fine
without any cooling, except possibly racing or misuse.
Our internal testing is not yet in. Our external
testing is not done. We expect to get results in a
few weeks. We are dedicated to safety to include a
significant margin and will ONLY deliver product and
promote uses that will be safe around babies, pets,
and ourselves.
The BMS does not measure current; the charger and
motor controllers should be set to not exceed the
pack's current and voltage limits. The BMS alarm must
be correctly connected to the charger and motor
controller to provide a shut-down signal if the BMS
detects a fault condition.
> How does the cooling air-flow work?
> (Where are the inlet & outlet located? How does this
> affect stacking/mounting etc?)
So far, we have only planned a cooling system in the
switch-out packs with the battery boxes and Anderson
connectors. We will post more on www.EV-Battery.com
as we finalize. Stacking is expected. Temp activated
fans from two separate sources. Vents in/out from top
of cases, Optional bottom knockouts to connect
stacks. Side door battery slide-ins with water tight
doors and auto disconnect door switches. Probably
December 1st.
> Got any EV Celebrities lined up to use/endorse your
> product?
Talk, but no action.
> What sort of production levels are you aiming for?
We have contracted for 90,000 cells per month after a
few months.
> Looking forward to hearing about the SMAT show on
> 9/10 Dec.
> Mark
EV-Battery.com will be showing batteries at the
Alternative Car & Transportation Expo (aka AltCarexpo)
sponsored by the City of Santa Monica. GoWheel.com
will show at least one electric motorcycle too.
Gadget will be building a street EV during the show
that will be certified to be California licensed and
legal to drive at the end of the show. We hope to
have product in his build too. Free admission. Hope
this helps.
Ryan or Jay 949-497-3600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
> Hi all,
> We have lowered our production costs and just
> now lowered our battery prices to EV List members.
> We have also activated EV-Battery.com as our
> primary battery website (and activated some other >
feeder webnames).
> We realize that the battery initial pricing is
> still very high and that our battery packs
> will not be a consideration for (almost all) EV
> List members. As we can get better pricing,
> we will pass it on.
> We have not yet reviewed test results, but will
> post specs and test results as they come in.
> Our standing list of orders has exceeded our
> forecast, but we have not taken any deposits
> and have no plans to ship any batteries until
> satisfaction of testing.
> We have taken a booth at the Santa Monica
> Alternative Transport show Dec 9/10 where we
> will be making our first showing of batteries
> and at least one high performance electric
> motorcycle.
> We have been paying attention recently to
> the fixed post discussions and since there is
> no swelling in our packs (and air gaps inside
> and around our internal cells prevent that, we
> believe the extremely heavy fixed posts we
> have (the buss bars ARE the posts) are the most
> durable. Please comment on the fixed posts.
> We value all the help we have been getting
> from the EV List experts, racers, EV owners,
> and pioneers, and hope to meet you there.
> Hope to see you at the show.
> Lou, Ryan, Jay, Robert, Don, John, Randy,
> Dennis, Rose, Alex, Vic, Kray, and Luiz
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Contact: Jay 949-497-3600
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 17, 2006, at 10:40 PM, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
An interesting topic!
MARK DUTKO wrote:
To clarify- there is an electric 12v heater next to the ac condenser
in the cabin so that when the engine is cold you can get hot air in
the cabin until the car warms up to supply the normal cabin heat.
This heater is part of a "cold weather package" for certain US
markets. So when the engine coolant is cold and can't supply heat to
the cabin, the 12v heater warms the cabin initially.
I've wondered for years now, why this feature hasn't been offered in
newer vehicles sold in cold weather areas before. Relying on just 12V,
it couldn't be a 'killer' heater of say 2000 watts, and most likely
isn't even a 1500 watt heater, but I bet they could do an 1100 watt
unit fairly easily.
Mark, if you find the specs of this Toyota 12V factory electric assist
heating element (probably ceramic), I and others would be very
interested to find out what kind of wattage it's rated for @ 14V.
I bet, that with this special cold weather package, the car comes with
a stouter higher output alternator so there's enough juice to feed the
heating element. I'll also bet that there is a thermal cut-out based
on the warmed-up ICE coolant, so that once the ICE has enough heat
available, the electric mode goes dead to give the alternator a break
from near max output. It will be interesting to hear more.
This is not a new Toyota feature. I know the first generation Prius
also came with an 12 volt assist heater in the heating ductwork. I bet
that a number of the more upscale Toyota models do as well. What I find
interesting is that a entry level car like the Yaris got the heater.
Anyway, I have the full service manuals for my Prius and could find out
more. That is a couple of big volumes to check to get all the info (the
details always seem to be scattered) and I know Mark will be into the
systems on his Yaris so hopefully he can get the information.
A quick electrical and AC reference in the 2002 Prius manuals indicates
that there are 2 30 amps heaters (relay coils wired together so they
work together) and a second 50 amp heater. These are the fuse sizes so
I'm sure the heaters are rated for somewhat less. Also, the first
generation Prius only has a 100 amp DC>DC and a second 5 amp DC>DC
along with a small (20 ah ?) 12v battery. In the AC drawings I could
only find (for sure) the 2, 30 amp units. I believe (but didn't take
time chasing from section to section) that the 50 amp unit is with the
heater core.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Huh?!?
I posted this message more than 2 days ago.
Now I see that David Roden replied 2 days ago, so
the stuck messages seem to be on a per-user basis.
My guess is that our email system (which had a hiccup
on Monday) caused the EVDL server to fail delivery of
my and David's message, so it stuck them into a re-send
queue which then delivered it 2 days later.
Accidentally the order is reversed (David's reply
came in 10 minutes before my original post)
This may explain the complaints about stuck messages
from some members - if their ISP or IT dept had an issue
with the email system, messages may be delayed for 2 days.
If you suspect that a message is delayed, you can
check the "Sent" date & time of the message, which will
indicate when they were created by the sender, iso the
normal display of the "Received" date & time.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 1:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: article: Mitsubishi unveils new electric car prototype
More info on the i MiEV that will be shown next week in
Japan, notice the motor position!
http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail1533.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Paul Wujek
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:27 PM
To: EV List
Subject: article: Mitsubishi unveils new electric car prototype
Japan only for now, but we can hope:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15224875/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 18, 2006, at 12:36 AM, Danny Miller wrote:
It's taking where Peukert says there is 1/1.2 of capacity at 100 amps.
[snip]
That is not what Peukert said at all. A battery with a Peukert's
exponent of 1.2 would have 39.8% of its Peukert's capacity available at
100 amps. Pc = I^Pe * T
Its seems unlikely that Peukert intended his formula to be used in time
slices to subtract capacity from the Pc (doing the math, repeatedly, in
a pre-computer era would have taken longer than running the battery
dead.) So perhaps we are abusing his formula when we do it; however,
the formula we are using to figure out how much capacity has been used
is his. I think his name should be in there somewhere.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks the correct charge curves are very important, so is the temperture
controls and air flow plenums.
The cooling of these packs is amazing to see. They put a LOT of money and
time into a serious fan that makes almost no sound. The pack on My Escape is
just as impressive, and it has refridgerant lines also.
So... NiMH packs take aLOT of support, Ignoring that is just going to kill
the pack faster.
I don't know How Bob Boyd gets away with it... Luck skill and cheap access
to packs is nice to have.
In a racer.. Enersys XE 16 make aLOT more power per pound, and are cheaper
and won't catch fire at 750 amp draws.
If you folks can't light up the stocker BMS and temperture controls.. DON't
expect much life from the Prius packs.
Or any other Nickle metal hydride pack. It's the nature of the Beast.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH Battery Pack from Prius Batteries
> Currently eBay has one for $300 and one for $1400, both used. The
> availability of working packs from wrecked Priuses (Prii?) is not very
> high but a good possibility. Fortunately people seem to report that the
> Prius batteries rarely (if ever?) fail so the risk of being sold bad
> batts is low.
>
> NiMH requires a very specific charge controller procedure, specific to
> that particular battery & pack brand.
>
> I saw they're 200v packs at onlt 6.5 amp-hrs. 10x packs at $300 isn't
> bad, actually. If the charging/discharging algorithm permits it, then
> that's 65 amp-hrs of usable capacity. In a lead-acid, if you want long
> life, you have to forget about using 20%-50% of the capacity to avoid
> the deep discharge. And Peukert's further limits capacity. 65 amp hrs
> is comparable to lead-acid pack of far larger size. And $3000 for a
> near-immortal pack is not a bad price in itself.
>
> Danny
>
> Dmitri wrote:
>
> > That is very cool. I wonder how much you can get Prius packs for.
> > Anybody know?
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Cameron"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:06 PM
> > Subject: NiMH Battery Pack from Prius Batteries
> >
> >
> >> Someone was asking about NiMh packs for an EV from wrecked Prius cars.
> >> Here is a web site of a person who is doing this:
> >> http://www.electric7.com/
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> >>
> >> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> >>
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think it's a fair request, and many of you live up to that. But
without
> naming any names, some on the list such as Death to All Spammers
(oops, it
> slipped) really leave a bad feeling in this regard.
>
>
Read my last post to you - clearly and extensively states the reasons
for my doubts of your EV expectations and gives alternatives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No Victor...not at all.
Just Step function magnitude increases in stored energy don't happen very
often.
If ever.
The jump from Lead to Nickle to Lithium is pretty impressive, I don't think
we are going to see that kind of improvement happen very often.
Folks claiming 500 mile range and 70 mph EVs are streching reality a bit.
Even Tesla is going to have a hard time making 500 miles with unlimited
funds Battery efforts.
So.. the hype needs to be beaten back with real data.
Mine... 12 Valence U24-12
4400 watt load. Got 15.254 Kw hr from them. Name plate rating are 15.360 Kw.
That error is less than my measurment error. So basicly they Do Exactly what
Valence Claims.
The Same weight pack of Enersys netted me only 3.700 Kwatt hours.
effectively the same weight of pack. That's 4 times the stored energy. THAT
is what lithium hands us EVers.
What kind of stored Kwhr can a 400 lbs ..er.. for you 181 Kilos, deliver? At
40 amp draw, or just say 4400 watts of power..let the amps and volts fall
where they may..??
Thunder Sky's promised us What?? how close did they come??
Valence just Aced thier published specs on my test bench.
I still have to cycle up the Enersys(Hawkers) and find out why I didn't get
Spec...I really didn't get time to flogg that pack, It's now in the White
Bird in Wenatchee. I think my Fiero is going to Donate it's E-meter to the
Cause.
Lead that doesn't perform for Madman is a bug that has to be elimininated.
Meters, Scope and glowing load banks... in hand.. I will find the issues.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Guys... I HAVE the best battery chemistry in hand!!!
> > Any other great claims to fame above and Beyond Lithium Iron Phosphate
are
> > Bull shit.
>
> Cool! So battery development progress should stop here then...
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles,
The turning over of a Gel Cell should have no noticeable
effect, as the rising of heat is associated with warm
material being lighter (expanded) than surrounding material
while in a Gel Cell, nothing is supposed to move around anyway
as the electrolyte is _suspended_ in the gel.
Even AGM is not to have noticeable mixing of electrolyte
as it is fully in adhesion to the glass mat.
But when the glass mat is too dry, adding water can be
absorbed by the cell, to recover from too much venting.
I have no clue how the mixing should be improved, other than
that you may be able to rely on normal diffusion, which
would cause sg gradients to slowly dissolve.
It may take a while though, possibly that gravity can
help a tiny bit, though gravity forces are weak compared to
adhesion forces.
So, there should be no issue in the water wicking itself
into the glass mat, that is almost instantaneous until the
mat is "full". My question is with the distribution of
the electrolyte after adding water: one part of the mat
may have almost pure water, while another part may have
too concentrated electrolyte. How long before it has
"Equalized" itself throughout the mat?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Monday, October 16, 2006 3:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Floodies/Batt. murder mystery/Thanks to Roger & Roland
> You may be able to add water to overcharged VRRs with a hack, but you'll
> never be able to use the single most accurate method of determining state
of charge.
Hawker Genesis AGMs don't require a hack...just snap the top off and water
the 6 cells with a syringe...very easy. It would be nice to be able to
check the charge state though.
One thing I wondered this past week (as I rewatered the 70ah Hawkers in the
1921 Milburn) is the extent to which the water self-wicks to all the areas
in the cell, or if there's value in rewatering, then flipping the battery
over to allow the water to distribute itself to areas of the cell that it
doesn't when oriented in its usual way. When I've woken up gel cells, I
noticed that under wakeup charge, the upper portion of the battery cells
gets warm/hot first, so, I flipped the battery over (since heat rises) and
found that it seemed to help spread the heat of reaction up into the
sulfated sections and get the battery to mix things up better.
Similarly, it seems that in rewatering, rotating the battery might help
better distribute the new water if some sulfation has been has occurred in
spots.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend wrote:
produce a battery in a form factor that is already
popular.
This is important if you want to sell these batteries for SLA use in
ICE vehicles(if you are talking about 12 volt batteries).
Or are you dealing with 26650's?
Keep in mind the situation of 348 volts and how to get enough capacity
at that voltage that the range is useful(and the price if
realistic...).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So I guess just taking a car like a 2002+ Toyota Corolla that has manual
> (I
> believe 5sp or something?)
> and then just keeping the whole stick shifting would be what to do?
>
> Although when driving it, I guess you would stick it in a gear you're
> driving like shift into 3rd when on the highway and just keep it there
> until
> you're going up some steep slope.
This is pretty much what I do with my truck. Remeber electric motors
don't stall like a gas engine, so there is no need to slip the clutch when
starting out.
Put it in gear and leave it. Come to a stop? Take your foot off the
accelerator, no need to use the clutch. Ready to go? Step on the
accelerator, again no need to use the clutch.
Basically I just put it in second and ignore the clutch until I get above
about 30-35 mph, then I shift to third. Third is good up to about 60 or
so and I rarely ever go faster than that.
So the only time I use the clutch is around 30-35 mph. Once when I go
faster than that and again when I slow down below that.
Even if you don't know how to drive a manual, you could learn this in
about 2 minutes.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I use an E-meter in my Yaris conversion with a 500A shunt and I am
pulling more than 500A with the Zilla 1K, what happens with the meter
accuracy, does the meter still work, do I need to be concerned? What
are other options? I would prefer to find a way to integrate the
display into the OEM modern dash- remote display????
Mark Dutko
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even AGM is not to have noticeable mixing of electrolyte
as it is fully in adhesion to the glass mat.
This is not at all true. It is quite well documented that
the electrolyte in AGMs stratifies. The acid tends to sink to the
bottom and the water rises to the top. Diffusion and capillary action
push towards mixing, while gravity pushes towards segregation. A
balance is reached.
"Flipping" an AGM at some point during its life will increase cycle
life just a bit by swapping the end (side) with the strongest electrolyte.
Spiral cell AGMs get slightly better cycle life on their sides.
This is not a huge effect, but when you tear apart a used
AGM, you can see the result.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If I use an E-meter in my Yaris conversion with a 500A shunt and I am
> pulling more than 500A with the Zilla 1K, what happens with the meter
> accuracy, does the meter still work, do I need to be concerned? What
> are other options? I would prefer to find a way to integrate the
> display into the OEM modern dash- remote display????
It's better than an analog meter, which can bend the needle when
heavily "pegged"! A digital readout like the emeter won't change its
accuracy if you run it out of range - it defaults to, I think, "555"
when out of range, then registers the next in-range value when it
comes up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So it still gives an accurate overall consumption value?
On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:14 PM, Death to All Spammers wrote:
If I use an E-meter in my Yaris conversion with a 500A shunt and I am
pulling more than 500A with the Zilla 1K, what happens with the meter
accuracy, does the meter still work, do I need to be concerned? What
are other options? I would prefer to find a way to integrate the
display into the OEM modern dash- remote display????
It's better than an analog meter, which can bend the needle when
heavily "pegged"! A digital readout like the emeter won't change its
accuracy if you run it out of range - it defaults to, I think, "555"
when out of range, then registers the next in-range value when it
comes up.
--- End Message ---
