EV Digest 6041
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: E-volks now offering a series motor ??
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Controller question
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Motor Adapters Re: E-volks now offering a series motor ??
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Good news (One more Ranger EV saved)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Messages comming in TWO different formats WHY
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: E-Meter Question 500A Shunt Zilla 1K
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Wacky 2 speed idea
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Controller question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: E-Meter Question 500A Shunt Zilla 1K
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Prius battery pack (OEM cooling)
by "Obrien, Haskell W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Prius battery pack (OEM cooling)
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Basics of battery charging?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Basics of battery charging?
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Lets add it up:
> Motor 500 to 800 on the street
> Controller 782
> Adapter plate/coupler 775 dollars
> potbox 65 dollars
> So for 2100 to 2400 dollars you could buy the same components from
KTA or EV
> parts. Seems like typical business practices. Sell it for less. The
> American way. Lawrence Rhodes.....
>
>
I contacted the seller through eBay and he stated he was a dealer with
them, so it is kind of a "spin off" company.
--- End Message ---
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* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
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--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps a less expensive way is to use a chain or belt drive to the
transmission rather than directly drive and mount the motor to the
transmssion. You would only need a pulley attached to the trans shaft,
but perhaps some transmissions also need bearing support for the shaft
which the motor would normally provide. Of course a belt drive takes up
more space too.
Jack
David Dymaxion wrote:
jmygann, sincere question, are you selling adaptors? For how much?
I used to think adaptors were overpriced, until I started making one!
I tried pricing my adaptor design in emachineshop. It was alot more than the
typical ~$800 for small quantities, but was cheaper for large quantities.
Even racing bellhousings, that are literally stamped out or molded by machines,
cost $100 to $500.
If someone thinks they can sell them cheaper, power to you and please start
advertising!
So to answer your original question, maybe $50 to $150 (steel vs. Al) for
materials. You need at least $1000 of machining equipment, and alot more for
CNC would be reasonable. I'm guessing it would be about a day of labor
(remember answering questions, taking the order, buying materials, building it,
and shipping). Even if you could build 1 a day, and make an optimistic $400 /
adaptor, optimistically you are clearing $100k a year -- not alot to keep a
shop going. Maybe with CNC, and making adaptors in batches, some economies of
scale could improve this.
----- Original Message ----
From: jmygann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Lawrence Rhodes <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:59:31 AM
Subject: Re: E-volks now offering a series motor ??
Why does the adapter/coupler cost so much ??
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
...
Adapter plate/coupler 775 dollars ...
--- End Message ---
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* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From Time-to-time... Messages come to me from the EVDL in a
Different Looking message header format... Kind of Hard to read
Much more stuff...
Most all the time the individual message headers are in a simple
4 - line format, Bold Caps, on a light blue background; like this
Subject:
From:
Date:
To:
And then sometimes the whole digest come like this in lower case..
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Fw: [a-w-h] NEW CERAMIC BATTERY BANK
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 07:17:39 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
WHY IS THIS ? ? ? ? ?
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With cautious reserve, I thought I would add an observation about this topic.
Most replies offered on this list do include details of the subject. However,
the information is often overwhelmed and overshadowed by the delivery. Far too
often the information is delivered very brutally. People are bashed for their
particular interest and opinions. I believe this list would be far more
effective if there were less personal bashing.
If the sharing of information was the focal point of the list, then the
thickness of ones skin would not be an issue.
Best Regards,
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
> I think it's a fair request, and many of you live up to that. But
without
> naming any names, some on the list such as Death to All Spammers
(oops, it
> slipped) really leave a bad feeling in this regard.
>
>
Read my last post to you - clearly and extensively states the reasons
for my doubts of your EV expectations and gives alternatives.
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
AOL Mail and more.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Jim-- From what I found the choice model is calibrated for 1K
amps even though the shunt is 500A. The shunt can read higher and it
would all work.
Mark
On Oct 19, 2006, at 6:16 AM, Jim Coate wrote:
Yes, assuming you are talking a typical on-road conversion.
The Zilla is limited to 1000 amps on both input (battery) and
output (motor) sides. It is likely that you will hit the limit on
the motor side while the batteries are still only a few hundred
amps (ex 150 volts at 500 amps in makes 75 volts at 1000 amps on
the motor). If you manage to get over 500 amps from the batteries,
it will be for such a brief time that it won't effect overall
consumption accuracy.
Now if you have a stiff pack of AGM batteries and plan to go racing
and sustain high currents.... you might look for one of the 1000
amp versions of the e-meter. I'm not sure if the Link-10 has a
1000A version, so might have to dig up a second hand e-meter.
MARK DUTKO wrote:
So it still gives an accurate overall consumption value?
On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:14 PM, Death to All Spammers wrote:
If I use an E-meter in my Yaris conversion with a 500A shunt and
I am
pulling more than 500A with the Zilla 1K, what happens with the
meter
accuracy, does the meter still work, do I need to be concerned?
What
are other options? I would prefer to find a way to integrate the
display into the OEM modern dash- remote display????
It's better than an analog meter, which can bend the needle when
heavily "pegged"! A digital readout like the emeter won't change its
accuracy if you run it out of range - it defaults to, I think, "555"
when out of range, then registers the next in-range value when it
comes up.
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can be found here.
http://www.electric-lemon.com/?q=node/47
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I toyed with this idea for a while. The biggest problem is the
relative gear ratio. Most overdrive unit only give you a 1/2 a speed
difference. It is like getting a 4 1/2 speed on a 4-speed
transmission. It is not suitable to use with an electric motor. We
need the relative ratios to be about 2 speeds apart say shifting from
2nd to 4th.
On 10/19/06, Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I've wondered about doing this using the overdrive unit off something like an
old Volvo. You then get a 2 speed box with electric switch actuation. The
problem is that with direct connection to the electric motor there is no overal
ratio reduction...it would be like driving with the manual box having only 4th
and 5th avaialable
There are ways round this.... chain drive to motor or change crown wheel and
pinion but they are starting to get complex and / or expensive.
You would also need to do an electric reverse.
One of these days when I'm rich and have nothing else to do.......!
Geoff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Fred,
I am using a Stewart Warner engine temperature gage that runs from 100 to
600 degrees F. The sender can be bolted to any surface. I have my sender
on the Zilla heatsink between the water ports.
I also have one on my motor and a standard Stewart Warner coolent
temperature which indicates the temperature of the Zilla coolent.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hartsell, Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:48 AM
Subject: Controller question
I am installing my Curtis 1231C-8601 in my truck. I am installing it
with a large heat sink but I would like to put a 12 volt fan on it just
incase that is needed to keep it cool. My question is does anyone know
of a temperature device that I can use to measure the temperature of the
controller and send this to a (analog or digital) meter inside of the
truck. Then I would also like to install some sort of temperature
switch on the controller to turn the fan on and off as needed. I am not
looking at breaking the bank with this part of the project since my
funds are getting limited as I am nearing completion of my project.
Thanks,
Fred
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends. The material in the shunt will permanently change resistance
if it gets too hot. So short durations above 0.5kA may not casue a
problem but sustained currents above that may overheat it and ruin the
accuracy.
-Peter
On 10/18/06, MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If I use an E-meter in my Yaris conversion with a 500A shunt and I am
pulling more than 500A with the Zilla 1K, what happens with the meter
accuracy, does the meter still work, do I need to be concerned? What
are other options? I would prefer to find a way to integrate the
display into the OEM modern dash- remote display????
Mark Dutko
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just considering getting a prius battery set for my motorcycle
project. Those BB6600 cells look ideal. The price is right and I don't
have to drive four hours to get them.
What sort of BMS are you looking at?
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:37 AM
To: Lightning Ryan
Subject: Re: Prius battery pack (OEM cooling)
Consequently the truck is now powered by the BB600 Military surplus
nicads. By this weekend I will have 1000 miles on them in only about 7
weeks. They will get a BMS. They do have thermal monitoring, but never
get over 107F. Max spec during discharge is 160F and 120F for
charging. So they don't need air cooling for that reason and the
military spec does not require it. This makes for much less R & D for
adapting them to an EV. They do have to be watered. But I have not
added any water other than the first sanity check on them at 300
miles. I'll check them again around 1300 miles. The interior of my
battery box shows no signs of cell venting. I attribute this to the
low current high voltage Hughes AC system in the truck.
Mike
--- End Message ---
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Generally the list is pretty polite to newbies. However, when someone
comes to the list and asks "tell me how to do this" and knowledgeable
folks tell them "sorry can't be done" and the noob responds "Don't tell me
it's not possible, help me figure out how to do the impossible", it tends
to annoy some folks.
We've actually had people come on this list and ask for help with
over-unity ideas (over-unity is a machine that produces more energy than
it uses, sort of like a perpetual motion machine on steriods).
They say something like "I'm trying to do this, but having trouble getting
it to work" and the list will say "The reason you can't get it to work, is
because it CAN'T work, it violates the laws of physics" and, I kid you
not, we had one guy say "well those laws were discovered over a hundred
years ago, so surely we can improve on them by now. Besides I don't have
any education to get in the way of my ideas, I read a book on magnetisim
and I'm sure I've discovered a new way of doing it"
If someone comes to the list and asks for advice, and then says "I don't
like your advice and I disagree with all of your experience and knowledge
because it's not the answer I wanted", well often the list doesn't respond
well.
>
> With cautious reserve, I thought I would add an observation about this
> topic.
> Most replies offered on this list do include details of the subject.
> However, the information is often overwhelmed and overshadowed by the
> delivery. Far too often the information is delivered very brutally.
> People are bashed for their particular interest and opinions. I believe
> this list would be far more effective if there were less personal bashing.
>
> If the sharing of information was the focal point of the list, then the
> thickness of ones skin would not be an issue.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Ken
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 6:56 PM
> Subject: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
>
>
>> I think it's a fair request, and many of you live up to that. But
> without
>> naming any names, some on the list such as Death to All Spammers
> (oops, it
>> slipped) really leave a bad feeling in this regard.
>>
>>
>
> Read my last post to you - clearly and extensively states the reasons
> for my doubts of your EV expectations and gives alternatives.
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security
> tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web,
> free AOL Mail and more.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BMS is what I'm designing now. I'm duplicating the function of the
older ACP cars. One led for each battery or module. Variable brightness
when the pack is around 9-9.5v and also when it's 13-13.5v. Each module
will have an isolated output so nothing leaves the pack that can cause
a short relative to the pack.
The other version I'm looking at, is Gordon Stallings LDC bargraph
system.
Mike
--- "Obrien, Haskell W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was just considering getting a prius battery set for my motorcycle
> project. Those BB6600 cells look ideal. The price is right and I
> don't
> have to drive four hours to get them.
>
> What sort of BMS are you looking at?
>
> Will
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 10:37 AM
> To: Lightning Ryan
> Subject: Re: Prius battery pack (OEM cooling)
>
>
> Consequently the truck is now powered by the BB600 Military surplus
> nicads. By this weekend I will have 1000 miles on them in only about
> 7
> weeks. They will get a BMS. They do have thermal monitoring, but
> never
> get over 107F. Max spec during discharge is 160F and 120F for
> charging. So they don't need air cooling for that reason and the
> military spec does not require it. This makes for much less R & D for
> adapting them to an EV. They do have to be watered. But I have not
> added any water other than the first sanity check on them at 300
> miles. I'll check them again around 1300 miles. The interior of my
> battery box shows no signs of cell venting. I attribute this to the
> low current high voltage Hughes AC system in the truck.
>
> Mike
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thunder Sky's promised us What?? how close did they come??
Valence just Aced thier published specs on my test bench.
Rich, notice one thing here.. Valence is a complete product with
EVerything. TS sold PLAIN cells to people who did not know what they are
buying. I know those cells some of you listers received were more like
BS. Not actual batteries... Old stock.
I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. The quality of TS
cells have become better every day. TS even sell nearly same chemisty as
Valence does. And those cells are as good as what you have there. Only
1/3th of the price. Add the CCS and you still have 2/5th of the price.
(With all that it actually becomes more or less comparable with Valence.
a complete solution)
One is different. TS can make with its patented technology single cell
up to 10 000 Ah.
But.. there are several other manufacturers lining up. I see at least 10
more worldwide. Competition is good for EVeryone.
you know.. we can expect still about double of the performance from
these TS and Valence cells as the manufacturing process gets constant.
Rich, toss your valence cell to icebox and see how much they give out at
-23 Celsius. I have 30 Ah li-Fe cell in cold (-23C) now and will do some
discharging in morning. Lets compare ! I'm keen to know what you have there.
-Jukka
I still have to cycle up the Enersys(Hawkers) and find out why I didn't get
Spec...I really didn't get time to flogg that pack, It's now in the White
Bird in Wenatchee. I think my Fiero is going to Donate it's E-meter to the
Cause.
Lead that doesn't perform for Madman is a bug that has to be elimininated.
Meters, Scope and glowing load banks... in hand.. I will find the issues.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
Rich Rudman wrote:
Guys... I HAVE the best battery chemistry in hand!!!
Any other great claims to fame above and Beyond Lithium Iron Phosphate
are
Bull shit.
Cool! So battery development progress should stop here then...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mr Husted, could you repost?
On 10/19/06, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
I'm just getting into EV, and as my first project I'm building a small
electric scooter. I figured that would be the least expensive route to
get my feet wet.
The first roadblock I've encountered is that I'm not really sure the
proper way to charge my batteries. I have four 12V 7.2 amp/hr batteries
that I'm planning on wiring together to get 24V with 14.4 amp/hr (so 2
pairs of batteries in parallel, and connecting those batteries in series).
Is it possible to charge all four batteries simultaneously? If so, would
I want a 24V charger? Is there anything else I should be considering?
Thanks for your time, I'm excited to be working on my first project!
Sincerely,
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't have a large enough Ice Box.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
>
>
>
> > Thunder Sky's promised us What?? how close did they come??
> >
> > Valence just Aced thier published specs on my test bench.
>
> Rich, notice one thing here.. Valence is a complete product with
> EVerything. TS sold PLAIN cells to people who did not know what they are
> buying. I know those cells some of you listers received were more like
> BS. Not actual batteries... Old stock.
>
> I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
> only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. The quality of TS
> cells have become better every day. TS even sell nearly same chemisty as
> Valence does. And those cells are as good as what you have there. Only
> 1/3th of the price. Add the CCS and you still have 2/5th of the price.
> (With all that it actually becomes more or less comparable with Valence.
> a complete solution)
>
> One is different. TS can make with its patented technology single cell
> up to 10 000 Ah.
>
> But.. there are several other manufacturers lining up. I see at least 10
> more worldwide. Competition is good for EVeryone.
>
> you know.. we can expect still about double of the performance from
> these TS and Valence cells as the manufacturing process gets constant.
>
> Rich, toss your valence cell to icebox and see how much they give out at
> -23 Celsius. I have 30 Ah li-Fe cell in cold (-23C) now and will do some
> discharging in morning. Lets compare ! I'm keen to know what you have
there.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
>
> >
> > I still have to cycle up the Enersys(Hawkers) and find out why I didn't
get
> > Spec...I really didn't get time to flogg that pack, It's now in the
White
> > Bird in Wenatchee. I think my Fiero is going to Donate it's E-meter to
the
> > Cause.
> > Lead that doesn't perform for Madman is a bug that has to be
elimininated.
> > Meters, Scope and glowing load banks... in hand.. I will find the
issues.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
> >
> >
> >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >>> Guys... I HAVE the best battery chemistry in hand!!!
> >>> Any other great claims to fame above and Beyond Lithium Iron Phosphate
> > are
> >>> Bull shit.
> >> Cool! So battery development progress should stop here then...
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Instead of wiring the chargers together, there is a better way of getting
this to work, if you use batts at the same voltage as your charger(s). Go
ahead and wire your 48V (or 24V) pack in series. Then get 4 double
connectors and wire one from each battery.
Now a charger can be plugged into each batt. If they happen to be similar
chargers (with some indicator... such as a flashing light) it can tell you
if one batt is slower to charge. It'll also do a better job at topping out
each batt to its max potential. I found I got about 5% greater range by
individually charging my batts every week or two.
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm just getting into EV, and as my first project I'm building a small
> electric scooter. I figured that would be the least expensive route to
> get my feet wet.
>
> The first roadblock I've encountered is that I'm not really sure the
> proper way to charge my batteries. I have four 12V 7.2 amp/hr batteries
> that I'm planning on wiring together to get 24V with 14.4 amp/hr (so 2
> pairs of batteries in parallel, and connecting those batteries in series).
>
> Is it possible to charge all four batteries simultaneously? If so, would
> I want a 24V charger? Is there anything else I should be considering?
>
> Thanks for your time, I'm excited to be working on my first project!
>
> Sincerely,
> Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
?? Que ?
So you have some huge packs.. What is the basic block dimensions ?
I was just going through the ev-battery.com site to see the specks from
their site. Good to compare.
Huh... Rich, I thougt we actually could get to the pissing contest with
these cells :)
-Jukka
Rich Rudman kirjoitti:
I don't have a large enough Ice Box.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
Thunder Sky's promised us What?? how close did they come??
Valence just Aced thier published specs on my test bench.
Rich, notice one thing here.. Valence is a complete product with
EVerything. TS sold PLAIN cells to people who did not know what they are
buying. I know those cells some of you listers received were more like
BS. Not actual batteries... Old stock.
I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. The quality of TS
cells have become better every day. TS even sell nearly same chemisty as
Valence does. And those cells are as good as what you have there. Only
1/3th of the price. Add the CCS and you still have 2/5th of the price.
(With all that it actually becomes more or less comparable with Valence.
a complete solution)
One is different. TS can make with its patented technology single cell
up to 10 000 Ah.
But.. there are several other manufacturers lining up. I see at least 10
more worldwide. Competition is good for EVeryone.
you know.. we can expect still about double of the performance from
these TS and Valence cells as the manufacturing process gets constant.
Rich, toss your valence cell to icebox and see how much they give out at
-23 Celsius. I have 30 Ah li-Fe cell in cold (-23C) now and will do some
discharging in morning. Lets compare ! I'm keen to know what you have
there.
-Jukka
I still have to cycle up the Enersys(Hawkers) and find out why I didn't
get
Spec...I really didn't get time to flogg that pack, It's now in the
White
Bird in Wenatchee. I think my Fiero is going to Donate it's E-meter to
the
Cause.
Lead that doesn't perform for Madman is a bug that has to be
elimininated.
Meters, Scope and glowing load banks... in hand.. I will find the
issues.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
Rich Rudman wrote:
Guys... I HAVE the best battery chemistry in hand!!!
Any other great claims to fame above and Beyond Lithium Iron Phosphate
are
Bull shit.
Cool! So battery development progress should stop here then...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds quite solid for me. you can get safe pack by this way. But I'm
afraid after certain point and much before intented a cell replacements
will be reality and frequent. Straining the "weakest link" in every
cycle will bring it down and fast.
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
Mark and all,
EV-Battery.com responding per question below:
--- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Can you give us some more details about these packs?
We will post results and photos at www.EV-Battery.com
as we receive and analyze results, probably updating
the websites about every five days.
What does the BMS do?
(From simple V monitoring to fully temp compensated
V and I monitoring with over-charge regulation and
over-discharge protection...)
Our first batteries are the 12 volt gasser batteries
that require different BMS from stacked EV packs. The
bigger switch-out packs (79.2V) will have BMS monitors
that monitor voltage on each stack of eight paralleled
cells. If this stack voltage gets too high, then it
places a 3.3 ohm resistor across the stack,
discharging the excess energy.
Can the BMS communicate with an external (to the
batt) device?
(Like a charger, fuel gauge, or logging computer)
Three different sets of alarms are combined into
“slow-down” or “stop” alarm signals. First, if the
voltage of a stack climbs dangerously high, an alarm
is indicated which should be used to throttle the
charger down to about one amp. A second alarm is sent
if the stack voltage falls dangerously low, indicating
the stack is out of charge and the load should be
reduced or stopped. A third alarm source is the three
temperature sensing thermistors in each module.
Thresholds can be set for each of the BMS module’s
three thermistors. If any temperatures get above
their individual threshold, the alarm will again be
signaled. All these alarms are indicated by turning
on an opto-isolator on the BMS module. Because
they're optoisolated, all the BMS modules in a pack
can
have their alarm signals wire-ORed in parallel to
create one pack alarm signal.
Do you have photos of a completed pack?
(Lots of 3D mock-ups in your photo gallery)
There are already some photos of our first gasser (12
volt motorcycle batteries and 12 volt car batts)
already there. Keep in mind that these are intended
to be gasser replacement batteries targeted to the
custom car and motorcycle show vehicles. Users are
trying to stay away from acid damage to their
expensive paint jobs and vehicles that sit for months
(sometimes years) without driving. Many vehicles are
primarily artistic and concept vehicles. Many of them
would like to replace a 45 pound bulky battery with a
1 pound motorcycle battery or a 5 pound auto battery
that can hide safely anywhere in any position. The
motorcycle builders are talking about putting
batteries inside their frames like a flashlight. The
car guys are talking about a recessed floorboard mount
with water cooler style lid. They are interested
because there is no bulging, venting, toxic fumes,
explosive, or fire dangers.
We also realize that gasser batteries are not the
focus of the EV List. So now, we have commitments to
supply a few race cars (including Le Mans), and other
traditional gassers with these first batteries. After
gasser success, we will sell them to people that use
them in electric vehicles, BUT we are going to be very
careful that we only supply educated builders with
logical applications within reasonable specifications.
We are not ready to promote mainstream EVers to use
our batteries (as series or parallel packs) until we
are sure of performance and safety. We will not make
the switch-out battery pack & case available to the
general public until it is ready. We only have so
much manufacturing ability and will restrain ourselves
from claims of a universal solution.
How are the individual cells interconnected?
(Is it possible to replace dud cells?
All battery cells are spot (high amp) welded with a
pull test and ohm resistance test on each connection
prior to grouping (to include connectors to buss bars)
and final enclosure in a rigid non-conductive box
(including the gasser batteries). The cells are
suspended within the box on all corners allowing space
on sides of at least 1/4 inch. The cell groups are
connected directly to the heavy copper buss bars. The
buss bars ARE the battery posts eliminating other
resistance and areas of concern or corrosion. We will
position side or top posts at any location, position,
or angle. Our warranty will cover individual cell
replacement at no cost to the user (except freight).
Freight is moderately reduced for five pounds instead
of transporting forty-five pounds. Because of the
tested safety of the batteries, there is no
restrictions against airline freight.
How hot does everything get under heavy load?
(How long at what amps? Does it shut down at
dangerous levels? Is there an warning alert?)
A123 testing and opinions of the experts, pioneers,
and racers have made us believe we are probably fine
without any cooling, except possibly racing or misuse.
Our internal testing is not yet in. Our external
testing is not done. We expect to get results in a
few weeks. We are dedicated to safety to include a
significant margin and will ONLY deliver product and
promote uses that will be safe around babies, pets,
and ourselves.
The BMS does not measure current; the charger and
motor controllers should be set to not exceed the
pack's current and voltage limits. The BMS alarm must
be correctly connected to the charger and motor
controller to provide a shut-down signal if the BMS
detects a fault condition.
How does the cooling air-flow work?
(Where are the inlet & outlet located? How does this
affect stacking/mounting etc?)
So far, we have only planned a cooling system in the
switch-out packs with the battery boxes and Anderson
connectors. We will post more on www.EV-Battery.com
as we finalize. Stacking is expected. Temp activated
fans from two separate sources. Vents in/out from top
of cases, Optional bottom knockouts to connect
stacks. Side door battery slide-ins with water tight
doors and auto disconnect door switches. Probably
December 1st.
Got any EV Celebrities lined up to use/endorse your
product?
Talk, but no action.
What sort of production levels are you aiming for?
We have contracted for 90,000 cells per month after a
few months.
Looking forward to hearing about the SMAT show on
9/10 Dec.
Mark
EV-Battery.com will be showing batteries at the
Alternative Car & Transportation Expo (aka AltCarexpo)
sponsored by the City of Santa Monica. GoWheel.com
will show at least one electric motorcycle too.
Gadget will be building a street EV during the show
that will be certified to be California licensed and
legal to drive at the end of the show. We hope to
have product in his build too. Free admission. Hope
this helps.
Ryan or Jay 949-497-3600
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
Subject: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
Hi all,
We have lowered our production costs and just
now lowered our battery prices to EV List members.
We have also activated EV-Battery.com as our
primary battery website (and activated some other >
feeder webnames).
We realize that the battery initial pricing is
still very high and that our battery packs
will not be a consideration for (almost all) EV
List members. As we can get better pricing,
we will pass it on.
We have not yet reviewed test results, but will
post specs and test results as they come in.
Our standing list of orders has exceeded our
forecast, but we have not taken any deposits
and have no plans to ship any batteries until
satisfaction of testing.
We have taken a booth at the Santa Monica
Alternative Transport show Dec 9/10 where we
will be making our first showing of batteries
and at least one high performance electric
motorcycle.
We have been paying attention recently to
the fixed post discussions and since there is
no swelling in our packs (and air gaps inside
and around our internal cells prevent that, we
believe the extremely heavy fixed posts we
have (the buss bars ARE the posts) are the most
durable. Please comment on the fixed posts.
We value all the help we have been getting
from the EV List experts, racers, EV owners,
and pioneers, and hope to meet you there.
Hope to see you at the show.
Lou, Ryan, Jay, Robert, Don, John, Randy,
Dennis, Rose, Alex, Vic, Kray, and Luiz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Contact: Jay 949-497-3600
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