EV Digest 6042
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) PHEVs on AutoblogGreen
by Sherry Boschert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: shunt mV
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) New website
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New website
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) What about the gas tank?
by "Christie Cooksey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Chevron NiMH was Re: Small request
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: What about the gas tank?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: What about the gas tank?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What about the gas tank?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: What about the gas tank?
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Servo Motors
by Matt Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: PHEVs on AutoblogGreen
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What about the gas tank?
by Matt Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 6036
by "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Gold Peak
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Servo Motors
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Thin-skinned, re: Small request & re EV-Train.
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've got an interview about my new book up on
AutoblogGreen. Some good comments so far:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/10/18/autobloggreen-qanda-with-sherry-boschert-why-plug-in-hybrids-will/
Sherry Boschert
Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars that Will Recharge America
(New Society Publishers, November 2006)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey guys don't know what happened, came up on my puter, we'll try it again 8^ )
Hey Peter
Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound motor 8^P Gives you a
little taste of my basic day here, hehe.
Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in good shape (not
including grime). I use a water based parts washer (a lot heathier than
solvents, and they make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water out with
my bake oven though. Make sure it dries out well and put an ohm meter to it to
make sure it's ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do this for
both arm, and coils once re-installed) Sorry if this pre-known knowlege, just
figuered I'd chime in 8^ )
The grooving is mostly caused by the grit and grime that was thrown at it.
The uneven brush wear is something I've heard contrary causes for. One being
the current has to move the full length of the comm where the closer brush does
not, and the comm edge has more bounce and vibration, I believe probably a
little of both. The pitting on the short brush was due to it shortening past
the spring tension and loosing contact with the comm. BTW that's a great pic
of the brush wear indicators which are those smaller wires. You can see that
they contacted the comm where the insulation was wore out and made contact and
lighted a short brush light. Looks like they ignored it or by-passed it
though, what can you do!
One last thing that I'd advise you to do is seperate and insulate those brush
leads better. They don't put a lot of insulation on them and I see a lot of
shorts on these type of leads. Being you'll be applying more voltage than it
was designed for this would be something I'd make sure I did, just an FYI.
Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster DE plate. You could
have that machined off, at least shaved down without hurting the plates
strength, just another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can add also that last testing result of TS cells are better here too :^)
still not a power battery but we can speak about EV commuter use battery
without doubts.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
>
>
>
> > Thunder Sky's promised us What?? how close did they come??
> >
> > Valence just Aced thier published specs on my test bench.
>
> Rich, notice one thing here.. Valence is a complete product with
> EVerything. TS sold PLAIN cells to people who did not know what they are
> buying. I know those cells some of you listers received were more like
> BS. Not actual batteries... Old stock.
>
> I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
> only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. The quality of TS
> cells have become better every day. TS even sell nearly same chemisty as
> Valence does. And those cells are as good as what you have there. Only
> 1/3th of the price. Add the CCS and you still have 2/5th of the price.
> (With all that it actually becomes more or less comparable with Valence.
> a complete solution)
>
> One is different. TS can make with its patented technology single cell
> up to 10 000 Ah.
>
> But.. there are several other manufacturers lining up. I see at least 10
> more worldwide. Competition is good for EVeryone.
>
> you know.. we can expect still about double of the performance from
> these TS and Valence cells as the manufacturing process gets constant.
>
> Rich, toss your valence cell to icebox and see how much they give out at
> -23 Celsius. I have 30 Ah li-Fe cell in cold (-23C) now and will do some
> discharging in morning. Lets compare ! I'm keen to know what you have
there.
>
> -Jukka
>
>
>
> >
> > I still have to cycle up the Enersys(Hawkers) and find out why I didn't
get
> > Spec...I really didn't get time to flogg that pack, It's now in the
White
> > Bird in Wenatchee. I think my Fiero is going to Donate it's E-meter to
the
> > Cause.
> > Lead that doesn't perform for Madman is a bug that has to be
elimininated.
> > Meters, Scope and glowing load banks... in hand.. I will find the
issues.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:08 PM
> > Subject: Re: Charging idea, probably already thought of...
> >
> >
> >> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >>> Guys... I HAVE the best battery chemistry in hand!!!
> >>> Any other great claims to fame above and Beyond Lithium Iron Phosphate
> > are
> >>> Bull shit.
> >> Cool! So battery development progress should stop here then...
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Read the shunt data then you knwow what to wait for:
50mv = 500A shunt (emeter usual )
or
50mv = 1000A shunt (emeter usual powerfull EV shunt)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 5:56 PM
Subject: shunt mV
> If I read mVolts off a shunt (looks like the Emeter size).
>
> would 10.0 mV = 100 Amps
> 22.0 mV = 220 Amps
> etc.?
>
> Or how else would I figure out the drop across it (it's really hidden,
> right between the motor and batteries, but it looks like the emeter type
> shunt).
>
> Since it is on the motor side it would be impossible to amp clamp it and
> read it simultaneously
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is that
"survive that without cry[ing]"
or
"survive that with outcry"
???
----- Original Message ----
From: Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:18:57 PM
Subject: Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
...I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. ...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My EV motorcycle site just went live.
It's very much a work in progress, as is the bike.
Pleas take a look and let me know what you think.
http://www.evguru.co.uk
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.bvs.org.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/19/06, Paul Compton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My EV motorcycle site just went live.
It's very much a work in progress, as is the bike.
Pleas take a look and let me know what you think.
Looks good Paul, I thought you were lost to smoking-bikes for a while there :)
I went for a first ride on my scoot'elec yesterday. Feet-forward.
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've yet to convert my car to electric as I'm still doing my homework.
Neither of my books or any of the online FAQ pages mentions the gas tank.
Is this just a big void that you have to leave alone or can you flush it out
and use the space?
Cheers
Christie :0)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
You are quite correct and right on the mark in your analysis of the NiMH
situation, at least for the North American automotive market (Asia and
Europe may differ). The only thing I would add is that GoldPeak *is* indeed
very much concerned about the competitive threat from lithium, even though
it does not represent an immediate threat but rather is still a few years
down the road, at least in mass-production quantities (>500 vehicles/month),
until battery makers can solve the one remaining challenge still plaguing
most lithium batteries, that being their short (3-5 year) calendar life (to
80% of original capacity) compared to NiMH (@ 10+ years).
However, not only is GoldPeak *not* pricing their large-format NiMH
batteries aggressively in the face of this looming competitive threat
(they're pretty darn expensive), they are actually making quite steep and
stringent (I would even call them *onerous*) demands on those who would
purchase their large-format NiMH batteries, akin to what I would call
demanding a king's ransome. This would seem to be counterintuitive, at
least at first thought, as you surmised (to the contrary), in the face of
this looming competitive threat. But if you think about it a little deeper,
from *their* business perspective, especially with regard to the large sums
of capital required for a specific manufacturing project and the duration of
that project's investment cycle, namely the amount of time required to
recoup the costs and realize a return on that investment, then it all makes
sense.
Another complicating factor that has driven up GoldPeak's NiMH battery
prices is the fact that nickel prices recently *tripled* in the 9-month
period from November 2005 to August 2006, which of course is something that
one can't blame on GoldPeak as it's a global commodity market phenomenon
that is well beyond their control.
In any case, the days of NiMH's reigning dominance for mass-production
HEVs/PHEVs/BEVs are clearly numbered with the advent and promise of some of
the newer, nano-engineered lithium batteries claiming to have 15+ year
calendar lives -- claims which, however, have yet to be independently
verified through accelerated calendar life testing by third-party labs.
Basically, what Chevron/Texaco managed to do through its $180 million
investment in which it put up 100% of the capital to create Cobasys (which
is carried on Chevron's books as a wholly-owned subsidiary) -- that gave it
effective control over the global licensing rights on NiMH batteries -- was
to buy themselves an additional 10 years of time during which they were able
to suppress advanced BEV technology and keep it off the market so as not to
compete with and disrupt the dominant, established ICE/petro paradigm and
business model. This was an extremely shrewd, clever (and entirely legal)
business move on their part that was phenomenally successful in achieving
its desired aim and furthered the interests of their shareholders, as they
(Chevron/Texaco executives) are required to do by law in our system. In
that regard, I can only acknowledge that success and they themselves as
worthy adversaries, being on the other side of the fence
myself.
*But* ... this is all going to become a moot point and will soon be
relegated to the dustbin of history in (likely) just a few short years with
(hopefully) 10-year-calendar-life, safe, stable, reliable lithium batteries
finally ready for primetime to power mass-produced PHEVs and eventually
long-range BEVs long before Cobasys' NiMH patents -- and Chevron's effective
licensing control over those patents -- expire on December 31, 2014.
Charles Whalen
On Wednesday, October 18, 2006 12:29 AM, David Roden wrote:
On 17 Oct 2006 at 20:09, Lock Hughes wrote:
hybrid buses. ...
GMs 2007 Saturn VUE ...
Dodge Durango hybrid ...
AFAIK, all these are quasi-hybrid (all energy derived from liquid fuel)
applications. Cobasys has no quarrel with that and is quite happy to
license manufacturers who make small, quasi-hybrid-size batteries.
It's large capacity batteries usable in road EVs that they don't want
anyone making or selling. This is pretty transparent. Their intent,
I think, is obvious.
AFAIK there is only one company licensed to make large NiMH batteries.
Gold Peak signed up before the restrictions were in place, back when
Cobasys was still Ovonics, and was producing small quantities of batteries
for Solectria and GM.
Gold Peak is based in Hong Kong. They manufacture batteries in Hong
Kong, Taiwan, and mainland China. Since they have the market for EV size
batteries to themselves, it's hard to imagine them pricing their product
aggressively unless they decide that competition from lithium is of
concern.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
Please don't flame me as a Zilla basher. I'm sure the Zilla is more
than worth the difference, and you certainly get MANY more features for
your money. But these features are not essential for a useful,
practical EV.
There are many EV's currently on the road with Curtis controllers ( even
1221's). The book "convert" shows only 1221 Curtis controllers, and
those were certainly successful EV's. It all depends what your goals
for the vehicle are. It would be a shame if the perceived need for a
Zilla kept people with limited budgets from building EV's.
phil, thank you for this post. i just ordered a kit from KTA using a
1231C-7701 for my 120v system. after reading all these posts from the
zilla enthusiasts, you begin to doubt your choices. for me price is
very important. i only have a $15,000 total budget, including donor!
sometimes on the advice on the list makes it hard to separate "nice to
have" from "must have." it is easy to get excited about the next
bigger/better thing and want it, even though we may not *need* it.
i agree that the zilla sounds like a great controller, maybe i'll have
one some day. but i just need to go to work (25 miles round-trip, 55
mph top speed, no hills). everything else is less than 2 miles away, we
mostly walk or bike--beauty of urban living.
kind regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Christie,
Remove the gas tank and all of its hoses completely. Use the space for
batteries or other things. Make sure to properly empty the tank first, and
no smoking until it is all out.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christie Cooksey
Sent: October 19, 2006 1:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: What about the gas tank?
I've yet to convert my car to electric as I'm still doing my homework.
Neither of my books or any of the online FAQ pages mentions the gas tank.
Is this just a big void that you have to leave alone or can you flush it out
and use the space?
Cheers
Christie :0)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Be careful, little pockets of gas can be trapped in seams and sealants. I'm not
sure how to make sure a gas tank is safe before you'd cut it in half -- a
cutting wheel or cutting torch could be very dangerous.
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:54:45 PM
Subject: RE: What about the gas tank?
Hi Christie,
Remove the gas tank and all of its hoses completely. Use the space for
batteries or other things. Make sure to properly empty the tank first, and
no smoking until it is all out.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christie Cooksey
Sent: October 19, 2006 1:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: What about the gas tank?
I've yet to convert my car to electric as I'm still doing my homework.
Neither of my books or any of the online FAQ pages mentions the gas tank.
Is this just a big void that you have to leave alone or can you flush it out
and use the space?
Cheers
Christie :0)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Christie,
Take it out and store it outside on blocks and fill it with water to purge
the fumes. Be sure to remove the water if its get below 33 degrees.
The space that was left, I install a Corvette spare wheel carrier, so as to
make more room for batteries and EV equipment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christie Cooksey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: What about the gas tank?
> I've yet to convert my car to electric as I'm still doing my homework.
>
> Neither of my books or any of the online FAQ pages mentions the gas tank.
> Is this just a big void that you have to leave alone or can you flush it
> out
> and use the space?
>
> Cheers
> Christie :0)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Put a bunch (2 or 3 pounds) of dry ice in the tank. The CO2 will render the
tank inert. If you can borrow a combustible gas indicater, use it to insure
the tank stays inert. The dry ice won't add too much weight. Once you have
it off of the car and in a safe place, then you can fill it with water. I
would still use a slow reciprocating saw to cut it up, not a torch or high
speed saw.
Dave
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: What about the gas tank?
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 15:08:59 -0700 (PDT)
Be careful, little pockets of gas can be trapped in seams and sealants. I'm
not sure how to make sure a gas tank is safe before you'd cut it in half --
a cutting wheel or cutting torch could be very dangerous.
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:54:45 PM
Subject: RE: What about the gas tank?
Hi Christie,
Remove the gas tank and all of its hoses completely. Use the space for
batteries or other things. Make sure to properly empty the tank first,
and
no smoking until it is all out.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christie Cooksey
Sent: October 19, 2006 1:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: What about the gas tank?
I've yet to convert my car to electric as I'm still doing my homework.
Neither of my books or any of the online FAQ pages mentions the gas tank.
Is this just a big void that you have to leave alone or can you flush it
out
and use the space?
Cheers
Christie :0)
_________________________________________________________________
Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was perusing the archives looking for information on DC servo motors.
It looks to me like they may not be the best choice for traction motors.
I have my eye on a ~4 inch Dia. Perm Magnet 24V DC Servo motor.
The motor weight is about 39lbs. beyond that I don't have any specs.
What are the limitations and restrictions of using a motor like this?
I am planning a small Kart with 24-48V of AGMs and 200-400 amp golf cart
controller.
This will be my "virgin" ev project and will be more of a learning
experience than anything else.
Thanks
matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sherry, Great interview! When will it be available for purchase? It says
available for Pre-order on Amazon.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sherry Boschert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Plug In America" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"FutureFuels andVehicles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: PHEVs on AutoblogGreen
I've got an interview about my new book up on
AutoblogGreen. Some good comments so far:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/10/18/autobloggreen-qanda-with-sherry-boschert-why-plug-in-hybrids-will/
Sherry Boschert
Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars that Will Recharge America
(New Society Publishers, November 2006)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.6/486 - Release Date: 10/19/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.6/486 - Release Date: 10/19/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once oxy/acetylene welded a gas tank puncture, the trick.....fill it
completely with water. I still got a tiny poof of fumes going up as I
got close with torch, but nothing real exciting.
I am not sure I would reuse the gas tank for anything in an EV. It would
be easier and less risky to use the space for something else--battery box?
David Dymaxion wrote:
Be careful, little pockets of gas can be trapped in seams and sealants. I'm not
sure how to make sure a gas tank is safe before you'd cut it in half -- a
cutting wheel or cutting torch could be very dangerous.
----- Original Message ----
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:54:45 PM
Subject: RE: What about the gas tank?
Hi Christie,
Remove the gas tank and all of its hoses completely. Use the space for
batteries or other things. Make sure to properly empty the tank first, and
no smoking until it is all out.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christie Cooksey
Sent: October 19, 2006 1:17 PM
To: EV List
Subject: What about the gas tank?
I've yet to convert my car to electric as I'm still doing my homework.
Neither of my books or any of the online FAQ pages mentions the gas tank.
Is this just a big void that you have to leave alone or can you flush it out
and use the space?
Cheers
Christie :0)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
About the rabid squirrel bit, you haven't seen or heard my motor
before but I found you describing how a motor shouldn't sound in
another post somewhere in the archives. My motor didn't seem to sound
like that, so I was happy I didn't know what a rabid squirrel sounded
like, yet (more on that in a bit).
The whiteish stuff on the comm was really hard to get off, and didn't
budge with scraping with a QTip and alcohol. I used the comm stone on
a stick from Grainger, and the comm *looks* pretty now, but I may have
a rabid squirrel in training. There's a bit more of a clicking sound
than there used to be and the brushes don't ride completely smoothly.
(holding my finger on them while it's turning) I think what happened
is that the comm stone I used is thinner than the individual comm bars
and skipped each time it went over a groove and created a comm with
different height bars.
About the car, its about 3100 lbs (I think), 128V flooded 8Vs with
600A Raptor. Before me it probably had in the neighborhood of 50k
miles on it. It was run with a 96V setup then.
I dropped the motor off at a motor shop this morning, I should have a
call in a couple of days. The brushes were also somewhat angled, so I
think having the comm turned is at least a good place to start. I love
tinkering, but I wanted to stop before I really messed something up.
Thanks for all the advice!
A couple more things - when you said the grooves between the comm bars
were filled with crud, is there a good way to clean that with the
motor together?
Some of the individual strands of the wires going into the brushes are
broken, one looks to be missing about 15% of the connections. If I do
want to replace a brush is there any common wisdom about replacing
them in sets? Like replacing all at once or the four that touch the
same spot on the comm?
Erik
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2006 08:59:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Comm pictures from my 8" ADC
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1633422657-1161187194=:1883"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
--0-1633422657-1161187194=:1883
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hey Erik
First off I don't remember saying it sounded like a rabid squirrel, was I
asking?
Two small pics is hard to do a diagnostic from, but there are a couple of
things that raise some red flags from what I can see. Lets take a look at the
first pic. That whitish spot could be melted mylar from the armature winding
insulation that's used to keep the windings from touching against the
lamination's of the armature body. The mylar is sandwiched between two outer
sheets of Nomex which helps the nomex to be more flexible and less prone to
cracking. The down side is if you heat it to much it will liquefy and sling
out from the armature, which is very bad. If heated severely it can lock the
armature up completely when it cools to what's like a hard plastic. In large
splatters or pools it is usually a cream color, so if you decide to pop the
motor apart, look to see if there is any of this spattered or pooled onto the
field coils and or arm body.
The second thing I see looks like the mica slots are filled with crud (second pic
doesn't show this). The basic comm streaking is a basic sign of overload, so (from what
I see here) something isn't quite right. I believe you said this is a ten year old
motor, so this could be from before you got it. The last thing that I notice is on the
right hand edge of the pic showing just the edge of the brush and holder. The holder
should have a crisp straight edge where yours shows something that looks like it's
attached itself to the edge of that holder. The brush where it contacts the brush is
also "not" crisp leading me to believe that it's been arcing.
The second pic doesn't show anything but streaking. If you'd like to pan out
and send me some more I might be able to tell you more.
First off the motor is not junk, it just needs a little love thrown at it.
More data is needed to determine the status of the brushes and holders to tell
what's going on and the actual cause of the overheating.
Sorry I can't narrow it down any better than this but there are a few things
that could cause this type of commutation. I don't recall the weight of your
car? A larger motor might be needed to keep it from overworking, but I believe
that may not be the case and what you have is just a motor that developed an
issue that needs to be addressed after years of service. Again this is all
speculation until someone pops it apart and has a look, better that then
burning it up.
Hope this helps
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Erik Bigelow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi all,
I finally took some pictures of my comm as best I could, I understand the
difficulty now! They're up here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/electricbasset/Comm/
They look about the right color with no obvious burn marks that I could see,
and didn't sound like a "rabid squirrel ready for takeoff" as I think Jim
Husted desribed it. Actually it sounded pretty good. What I do see are
streaks that are the each around the color that I've read I should expect,
but I don't think I should be seeing both colors next to eachother right? I
don't know what the whiteish patch is on the 1st picture, but it didn't come
off with a little alcohol on a Qtip. There also to be some kind of junk
between the comm bars. Should I try to clean this?
I checked a couple of the brushes as well and they didn't seem to have any
of the problems shown here, except a streakiness corresponding to the
streaks on the comm.
http://www.hkplanet.net/learning_center/articles/DC_Motor_Brushes.html
My uneducated, 80-miles-of-EV-driving-under-my-belt guess is that it's not
bad and just needs to be cleaned up a little. I got a Comm Stone on a Stick,
a Power Polisher Bar, and a Comm Cleaner Bar (the three on the right side of
this page:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/viewCatalogPDF.shtml?browserCompatable=true&adobeCompatable=true&toolbar=true&CatPage=156)
My plan is to start with the softest and work my way up until I have a
pretty comm. Any opinions? Is my motor destined for destruction when I
should leave well enough alone? Thanks!
Erik
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--0-1633422657-1161187194=:1883
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--0-1633422657-1161187194=:1883--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10/19/06, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound motor 8^P Gives you a
little taste of my basic day here, hehe.
Yeah, can't believe you deal with this stuff for a living AND for fun! :)
Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in good shape (not
including grime). I use a water based parts washer (a lot heathier than
solvents, and they make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water out with
my bake oven though. Make sure it dries out well and put an ohm meter to it to
make sure it's ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do this for
both arm, and coils once re-installed) Sorry if this pre-known knowlege, just
figuered I'd chime in 8^ )
Any input is always welcome.
I've actually cleaned it up quite a bit since these pictures were
taken. The field coils are missing insulation in a couple of places
but they look fixable. I used mostly non solvent based engine
degreaser, and some ovencleaner on the motor housing. The oven cleaner
took the ugly paint off too so it can't be used on anything with
insulation.
Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster DE plate. You could
have that machined off, at least shaved down without hurting the plates
strength, just another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
I'm planning on machining that thing down, I will probably go through
a whole bit getting rid of the snout.
Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
Thanks for your advice!
-Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And so the newbie slips away and doesn't ask any more questions.
In my defense I didn't say "tell me how to do this" I asked for advice on
what could be done to try and achieve as many items on my wish list as I
could.
The answer it can't be done doesn't sit well, because it can be done,
granted with great expense, but it CAN be done. I wasn't asking for a
perpetual motion machine.
I found it interesting that a subsequent thread went on to discuss just how
you could build a $25,000 EV with all the items on my wish list, all without
the newbie bashing.
Now, I've learned a little more, I understand some of the limitations of
lead batteries, and the fact that people selling EV parts apparently do
exaggerate expectations. (personally I would call it lying to say you can
get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries, but that's just me)
I still don't know how everything goes together to make a working EV, but
that's something I am slowly learning on my own, because I am more reserved
about asking anything here unless I understand the topic. But then why ask?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
Generally the list is pretty polite to newbies. However, when someone
comes to the list and asks "tell me how to do this" and knowledgeable
folks tell them "sorry can't be done" and the noob responds "Don't tell me
it's not possible, help me figure out how to do the impossible", it tends
to annoy some folks.
We've actually had people come on this list and ask for help with
over-unity ideas (over-unity is a machine that produces more energy than
it uses, sort of like a perpetual motion machine on steriods).
They say something like "I'm trying to do this, but having trouble getting
it to work" and the list will say "The reason you can't get it to work, is
because it CAN'T work, it violates the laws of physics" and, I kid you
not, we had one guy say "well those laws were discovered over a hundred
years ago, so surely we can improve on them by now. Besides I don't have
any education to get in the way of my ideas, I read a book on magnetisim
and I'm sure I've discovered a new way of doing it"
If someone comes to the list and asks for advice, and then says "I don't
like your advice and I disagree with all of your experience and knowledge
because it's not the answer I wanted", well often the list doesn't respond
well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did read it, and I wrote a response thanking you for the excellent
information.
Perhaps my messages aren't making it to the list anymore.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
> I think it's a fair request, and many of you live up to that. But
without
> naming any names, some on the list such as Death to All Spammers
(oops, it
> slipped) really leave a bad feeling in this regard.
>
>
Read my last post to you - clearly and extensively states the reasons
for my doubts of your EV expectations and gives alternatives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was perusing the archives looking for information on DC servo motors.
> It looks to me like they may not be the best choice for traction motors.
>
> I have my eye on a ~4 inch Dia. Perm Magnet 24V DC Servo motor.
> The motor weight is about 39lbs. beyond that I don't have any specs.
>
> What are the limitations and restrictions of using a motor like this?
I think the controller is the biggest problem with servo motors -
they're like (or the same as?) a BLDC driver, so pricey. The gauge of
wire used for power can tell you the amp rating the motor expects.
> I am planning a small Kart with 24-48V of AGMs and 200-400 amp golf
cart
> controller.
Golf cart controllers work on series or PM motors, so if you already
have the controller, keep an eye out for that kind of motor.
> This will be my "virgin" ev project and will be more of a learning
> experience than anything else.
>
You don't really start the learning process until you start breaking
and burning up things.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some ideas are from misinformation. Other ideas have real problems.
Re Charging Infrastructure, I emailed about it.
I am still not clear on what exactly your idea was, here. If you feel shot
down, I hope
you won't take too much offense. An idea of mine was also shot down. Before
hybrids were
sold by Toyota and Honda, it was considered almost an off-topic idea. I mostly
listen on
this EV Discussion List. It pays to read-up on both Electricity, and
Electronics.
The concept is: (Quote)
> > >>Basically its the idea of a pusher trailer taken a few steps farther. An
> > >>engine
> > >>car, the EVLocomotive, is an unmanned vehicle w/a power source to push
> > >>and pull other EV cars which can be linked up as a train.
> > >>One EVL [EV-Locomotive] can pull multiple EVs, which can recharge
> > >>batteries
> > >>via regeneration from the spinning wheels while being towed on the
> > >>freeway.
(Unquote).
I attempted to explain what I see as problems with this EV-Train concept --
One major strength of an EV is simplicity. The EV-Train is not simple.
How strong the magnets would have to be is an open question. It will need
research. A gap
between 'cars in the EV-Train' would be source for an arc. If the arc is
sufficiently
strong in voltage to reliably charge, then it could kill a person. That is a
risk factor.
When you electrify magnets they become electromagnets which are much stronger
and would
attempt to close any 'gap' between cars on an EV Train'. While an electromagnet
would
minimize problems with an arc, then EV-Train cars would not so easily 'split'.
Seperating
at speed would happen at different times and conditions. This would be another
risk
factor.
New cars have lots of sensors, for pollution controls and passenger comforts.
There is a
scheme to add even more sensors to track steering and support a 'no-hands'
cruise
control. The risk factors for that to be built have been estimated as 'high'.
Risk
factors could be calculated, of course. They are calculated when almost
anything is built.
This is what engineers do. They would have to be calculated for an EV-Train.
That the
'no-hands' cruise control hasn't been yet built is a clue for why even more
complicated things like an EV-Train have also not been built.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:56 PM
Subject: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
> > I think it's a fair request, and many of you live up to that. But
> > without naming any names, some on the list such as
> > Death to All Spammers (oops, it slipped) really leave a bad
> > feeling in this regard.
> Read my last post to you - clearly and extensively states the reasons
> for my doubts of your EV expectations and gives alternatives.
--- End Message ---
