EV Digest 6043
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) ABC12.com: Electric truck is big on savings
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) TS cost, performance , CG costs.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: What about the gas tank?
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 250 amp breaker popping
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ABC12.com: Electric truck is big on savings
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: What about the gas tank?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thin-skinned, re: Small request & re EV-Train.
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV digest 6036
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Servo Motors
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Motor that gives "double the performance"
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ABC12.com: Electric truck is big on savings
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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--- Begin Message ---
Tom Carpenter sent you this from ABC12.com link:
Electric truck is big on savings
(10/19/06)-- A Shiawassee County man drives a pickup that many people probably
wish they had. He never has to stop at gas stations.
http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=automotive&id=4676232
Comments:
My Isuzu on local news
____________________________________________________________
ABC12.com - What it takes ... wherever news breaks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Michael Trefry wrote:
(personally I would call it lying to say you can
get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries, but that's just me)
Then you would be calling me a liar. Red Beastie demonstrated over and
over, that 100+ miles per charge was easily attainable. It could
actually do 120 miles @ 60 mph on a warm day with about a 90% discharge.
80 miles was pretty effortless for this truck that ran on lead acid
batteries.
You might want to do some more reading of EV list archives to get up to
speed before making comments like 'I would call it lying to say you can
get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries'. There are comprehensive
posts all about two separate trips in this EV from Portland, Oregon to
Seattle, Washington and back, over 400 miles all done with a lead acid
powered Toyota truck.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jukka, Victor and All,
How much would a pack of 200 amphr, 72vdc
cost, weigh in TS? In quanity? This should give me 100+ mile
range.
Safe amps to source with good life?
How much of capacity/amphr is useable to
keep good life?
How long calender life do they have assuming
good care, charging?
As many others would use about twice as
much, they can just double it though not likely to get the
same range unless they are under 200 wthrs/mile.
More than a new battery, we need better
gliders, built as EV's. It doesn't require any new tech, all
my tech is at least 20 yrs old, proven, low cost but very
eff, less power, thus battery, cost is needed for a given
range. Done this way EV's cost less than ICE's by a fair
amount over 5-10 yrs. My Ewoody cost $.03/mile for battery,
electricity and my new one should be 30% more eff than it.
Checked on GC battery prices this morning and
Trojan T105's cost $78 in a 12 lot from the distributer
business price but Interstate/US Battery 2200's were $63
retail. $9 core charge!! Luckily I have cores.
It's amazing how fast money disappears when
outfitting an EV from scratch! Motor/controller arrives
tomarrow, windshield made, doing the dash now for the
electrical being done tomarrow, busy, busy, busy ;^D
So it looks like my first battery pack will
be US Battery.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jukka,
Could you please elaborate on this and explain why you feel this is the
case?
Is it -- (if I understand Jay's description correctly) -- because their BMS
apparently only goes to the block level (each block being 8 cells in
parallel) but not to the individual cell level within blocks, such that
there is apparently no way to bypass charging current around individual
cells (that have already reached their top-of-charge voltage before others
in the block) but rather only around an entire 8-cell-in-parallel block en
masse, and thus would seem to be making an assumption and leap of faith that
all 8 cells in each block will track absolutely dead-even with no variation
in voltage over the supposedly 15-year calendar life claimed for these
cells?
I too was wondering about this, so I'm glad you raised the question.
Another question in my mind is due to the fact (as I understand it from
Jay's description) that the 8 cells in parallel in each block are all
(high-current) tab-welded together, it would appear that when the weakest
cell in the block utimately degrades to the point of needing replacement,
(which, again, would seem to be made more likely at some point, or hastened,
by the lack of BMS control circuitry to the individual cell level), it will
therefore require replacing, at minimum, the entire 8-cell block (since
they're all tab-welded together) rather than merely the one single errant
cell.
Any thoughts on that from either Jukka, Jay, or Bill Dube?
Thanks,
Charles Whalen
On Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:39 PM, Jukka Jarvinen wrote:
Sounds quite solid for me. you can get safe pack by this way. But I'm
afraid after certain point and much before intented a cell replacements
will be reality and frequent. Straining the "weakest link" in every cycle
will bring it down and fast.
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
Mark and all,
EV-Battery.com responding per question below:
--- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Can you give us some more details about these packs?
We will post results and photos at www.EV-Battery.com
as we receive and analyze results, probably updating
the websites about every five days.
What does the BMS do?
(From simple V monitoring to fully temp compensated
V and I monitoring with over-charge regulation and over-discharge
protection...)
Our first batteries are the 12 volt gasser batteries
that require different BMS from stacked EV packs. The
bigger switch-out packs (79.2V) will have BMS monitors
that monitor voltage on each stack of eight paralleled
cells. If this stack voltage gets too high, then it
places a 3.3 ohm resistor across the stack,
discharging the excess energy.
Can the BMS communicate with an external (to the
batt) device?
(Like a charger, fuel gauge, or logging computer)
Three different sets of alarms are combined into
“slow-down” or “stop” alarm signals. First, if the
voltage of a stack climbs dangerously high, an alarm
is indicated which should be used to throttle the
charger down to about one amp. A second alarm is sent
if the stack voltage falls dangerously low, indicating
the stack is out of charge and the load should be
reduced or stopped. A third alarm source is the three
temperature sensing thermistors in each module. Thresholds can be set for
each of the BMS module’s
three thermistors. If any temperatures get above
their individual threshold, the alarm will again be
signaled. All these alarms are indicated by turning
on an opto-isolator on the BMS module. Because
they're optoisolated, all the BMS modules in a pack
can
have their alarm signals wire-ORed in parallel to
create one pack alarm signal.
Do you have photos of a completed pack?
(Lots of 3D mock-ups in your photo gallery)
There are already some photos of our first gasser (12
volt motorcycle batteries and 12 volt car batts)
already there. Keep in mind that these are intended
to be gasser replacement batteries targeted to the
custom car and motorcycle show vehicles. Users are
trying to stay away from acid damage to their
expensive paint jobs and vehicles that sit for months
(sometimes years) without driving. Many vehicles are
primarily artistic and concept vehicles. Many of them
would like to replace a 45 pound bulky battery with a
1 pound motorcycle battery or a 5 pound auto battery
that can hide safely anywhere in any position. The
motorcycle builders are talking about putting
batteries inside their frames like a flashlight. The
car guys are talking about a recessed floorboard mount
with water cooler style lid. They are interested
because there is no bulging, venting, toxic fumes,
explosive, or fire dangers.
We also realize that gasser batteries are not the
focus of the EV List. So now, we have commitments to
supply a few race cars (including Le Mans), and other
traditional gassers with these first batteries. After
gasser success, we will sell them to people that use
them in electric vehicles, BUT we are going to be very
careful that we only supply educated builders with
logical applications within reasonable specifications.
We are not ready to promote mainstream EVers to use
our batteries (as series or parallel packs) until we
are sure of performance and safety. We will not make
the switch-out battery pack & case available to the
general public until it is ready. We only have so
much manufacturing ability and will restrain ourselves
from claims of a universal solution.
How are the individual cells interconnected?
(Is it possible to replace dud cells?
All battery cells are spot (high amp) welded with a
pull test and ohm resistance test on each connection
prior to grouping (to include connectors to buss bars)
and final enclosure in a rigid non-conductive box
(including the gasser batteries). The cells are
suspended within the box on all corners allowing space
on sides of at least 1/4 inch. The cell groups are
connected directly to the heavy copper buss bars. The
buss bars ARE the battery posts eliminating other
resistance and areas of concern or corrosion. We will
position side or top posts at any location, position,
or angle. Our warranty will cover individual cell
replacement at no cost to the user (except freight). Freight is
moderately reduced for five pounds instead
of transporting forty-five pounds. Because of the
tested safety of the batteries, there is no
restrictions against airline freight.
How hot does everything get under heavy load?
(How long at what amps? Does it shut down at
dangerous levels? Is there an warning alert?)
A123 testing and opinions of the experts, pioneers,
and racers have made us believe we are probably fine
without any cooling, except possibly racing or misuse.
Our internal testing is not yet in. Our external
testing is not done. We expect to get results in a
few weeks. We are dedicated to safety to include a
significant margin and will ONLY deliver product and
promote uses that will be safe around babies, pets,
and ourselves. The BMS does not measure current; the charger and
motor controllers should be set to not exceed the
pack's current and voltage limits. The BMS alarm must
be correctly connected to the charger and motor
controller to provide a shut-down signal if the BMS
detects a fault condition.
How does the cooling air-flow work?
(Where are the inlet & outlet located? How does this
affect stacking/mounting etc?)
So far, we have only planned a cooling system in the
switch-out packs with the battery boxes and Anderson
connectors. We will post more on www.EV-Battery.com
as we finalize. Stacking is expected. Temp activated
fans from two separate sources. Vents in/out from top
of cases, Optional bottom knockouts to connect
stacks. Side door battery slide-ins with water tight
doors and auto disconnect door switches. Probably
December 1st.
Got any EV Celebrities lined up to use/endorse your
product?
Talk, but no action.
What sort of production levels are you aiming for?
We have contracted for 90,000 cells per month after a
few months.
Looking forward to hearing about the SMAT show on
9/10 Dec.
Mark
EV-Battery.com will be showing batteries at the
Alternative Car & Transportation Expo (aka AltCarexpo)
sponsored by the City of Santa Monica. GoWheel.com
will show at least one electric motorcycle too. Gadget will be building a
street EV during the show
that will be certified to be California licensed and
legal to drive at the end of the show. We hope to
have product in his build too. Free admission. Hope
this helps. Ryan or Jay 949-497-3600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
Subject: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
Hi all,
We have lowered our production costs and just now lowered our battery
prices to EV List members.
We have also activated EV-Battery.com as our primary battery website
(and activated some other >
feeder webnames).
We realize that the battery initial pricing is
still very high and that our battery packs will not be a consideration
for (almost all) EV List members. As we can get better pricing, we will
pass it on.
We have not yet reviewed test results, but will
post specs and test results as they come in. Our standing list of
orders has exceeded our forecast, but we have not taken any deposits
and have no plans to ship any batteries until satisfaction of testing.
We have taken a booth at the Santa Monica
Alternative Transport show Dec 9/10 where we will be making our first
showing of batteries and at least one high performance electric
motorcycle.
We have been paying attention recently to the fixed post discussions and
since there is no swelling in our packs (and air gaps inside and around
our internal cells prevent that, we believe the extremely heavy fixed
posts we have (the buss bars ARE the posts) are the most durable.
Please comment on the fixed posts. We value all the help we have been
getting from the EV List experts, racers, EV owners, and pioneers, and
hope to meet you there. Hope to see you at the show.
Lou, Ryan, Jay, Robert, Don, John, Randy, Dennis, Rose, Alex, Vic, Kray,
and Luiz
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Contact: Jay 949-497-3600
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> They say something like "I'm trying to do this, but having trouble
getting
> it to work" and the list will say "The reason you can't get it to
work, is
> because it CAN'T work, it violates the laws of physics" and, I kid you
> not, we had one guy say "well those laws were discovered over a hundred
> years ago, so surely we can improve on them by now. Besides I don't
have
> any education to get in the way of my ideas, I read a book on magnetisim
> and I'm sure I've discovered a new way of doing it"
Ah, the if-I-didn't-learn-the-laws-of-physics-they-don't-apply-to-me
argument - wasn't that the reasoning used by the fellow in New Zealand
with the "Back EMF? We don't need any back EMF" hand-made motor? It
always tickles me when people associate the effects of magnetism with
"something akin to magic" (as in the Heinlein quote). This is usually
where level-headed Lee Hart mentions magnets are just invisible
springs and don't bring any energy into the design by their mere presence.
> If someone comes to the list and asks for advice, and then says "I don't
> like your advice and I disagree with all of your experience and
knowledge
> because it's not the answer I wanted", well often the list doesn't
respond
> well.
Or we get people who really do know the answer, but ask ones they know
will get a rise out of listees (e.g. Troy Heagy), which is known as
"trolling" (hence his nickname "Troy the Troll").
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why cut it up? Why not try and resell it?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:36 PM
Subject: Re: What about the gas tank?
>I once oxy/acetylene welded a gas tank puncture, the trick.....fill it
> completely with water. I still got a tiny poof of fumes going up as I
> got close with torch, but nothing real exciting.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 19, 2006, at 9:09 AM, Don Cameron wrote:
Here is another alternative:
________ _________
| | | |
| Pack 1 | | Pack 2 |
| | | |
| + - | | + - |
|________| |_________|
| | | |
| |__________)....)--+ | |
| | | |
| +---------+ | |
| | | |
| |_)....)_________________| |
| |
|_______________)....)______________________|
If you look on my website, I show how I wired in a 3 phase breaker to
split
my pack: http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_HighVoltageSystem.html
Umm, I think you are shorting out the pack when you turn the breakers
on. Does "+---------+" means the load? Oh, that makes sense now :-)
Just giving you a bad time (and hopefully making what you had in mind
more clear.) I had thought about redrawing the idea to put one of the
three at pack plus, another at pack minus, and the third in the middle.
Then I remembered that I don't enjoy making ASCII art! Glad you did :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Tom Carpenter sent you this from ABC12.com link:
> Electric truck is big on savings
> (10/19/06)-- A Shiawassee County man drives a pickup that many
people probably wish they had. He never has to stop at gas stations.
> http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=automotive&id=4676232
>
> Comments:
> My Isuzu on local news
>
>
Yo, Tom, I want a "Powered by American Electrons" sticker, too! Who on
the list is selling those?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Then you would be calling me a liar. Red Beastie demonstrated over and
> over, that 100+ miles per charge was easily attainable. It could
> actually do 120 miles @ 60 mph on a warm day with about a 90%
discharge.
> 80 miles was pretty effortless for this truck that ran on lead acid
> batteries.
In his defense, he was referring to a 914 going 100 miles on lead.
> You might want to do some more reading of EV list archives to get up to
> speed before making comments like 'I would call it lying to say you can
> get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries'. There are comprehensive
> posts all about two separate trips in this EV from Portland, Oregon to
> Seattle, Washington and back, over 400 miles all done with a lead acid
> powered Toyota truck.
>
Oh, now you've done it! You pointed another newbie towards the
archives, where they will sink out of sight, never to be seen again!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry John. I meant in a Porsche 914. I'm sure your truck can handle a much
larger load of batteries.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
Hello to All,
Michael Trefry wrote:
>(personally I would call it lying to say you can
>get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries, but that's just me)
>
>
>
Then you would be calling me a liar. Red Beastie demonstrated over and
over, that 100+ miles per charge was easily attainable. It could
actually do 120 miles @ 60 mph on a warm day with about a 90% discharge.
80 miles was pretty effortless for this truck that ran on lead acid
batteries.
You might want to do some more reading of EV list archives to get up to
speed before making comments like 'I would call it lying to say you can
get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries'. There are comprehensive
posts all about two separate trips in this EV from Portland, Oregon to
Seattle, Washington and back, over 400 miles all done with a lead acid
powered Toyota truck.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
> only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. The quality
of TS
> cells have become better every day. TS even sell nearly same
chemisty as
> Valence does. And those cells are as good as what you have there. Only
> 1/3th of the price. Add the CCS and you still have 2/5th of the price.
> (With all that it actually becomes more or less comparable with
Valence.
> a complete solution)
>
What is the current price for TS cells (and how do you figure shipping
rates to the West Coast)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Why cut it up? Why not try and resell it?
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
...or make like Wilderness EV and leave it "in situ"!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve, I think you are confusing Michael and myself, I did not post the
"small request" message. You sent the "EV-train" message to me
private email, and not to the list. I like reasoned criticism of my
ideas, thats why I post them.
Jack
Steve wrote:
Some ideas are from misinformation. Other ideas have real problems.
Re Charging Infrastructure, I emailed about it.
I am still not clear on what exactly your idea was, here. If you feel shot
down, I hope
you won't take too much offense. An idea of mine was also shot down. Before
hybrids were
sold by Toyota and Honda, it was considered almost an off-topic idea. I mostly
listen on
this EV Discussion List. It pays to read-up on both Electricity, and
Electronics.
The concept is: (Quote)
Basically its the idea of a pusher trailer taken a few steps farther. An engine
car, the EVLocomotive, is an unmanned vehicle w/a power source to push
and pull other EV cars which can be linked up as a train.
One EVL [EV-Locomotive] can pull multiple EVs, which can recharge batteries
via regeneration from the spinning wheels while being towed on the freeway.
(Unquote).
I attempted to explain what I see as problems with this EV-Train concept --
One major strength of an EV is simplicity. The EV-Train is not simple.
How strong the magnets would have to be is an open question. It will need
research. A gap
between 'cars in the EV-Train' would be source for an arc. If the arc is
sufficiently
strong in voltage to reliably charge, then it could kill a person. That is a
risk factor.
When you electrify magnets they become electromagnets which are much stronger
and would
attempt to close any 'gap' between cars on an EV Train'. While an electromagnet
would
minimize problems with an arc, then EV-Train cars would not so easily 'split'.
Seperating
at speed would happen at different times and conditions. This would be another
risk
factor.
New cars have lots of sensors, for pollution controls and passenger comforts.
There is a
scheme to add even more sensors to track steering and support a 'no-hands'
cruise
control. The risk factors for that to be built have been estimated as 'high'.
Risk
factors could be calculated, of course. They are calculated when almost
anything is built.
This is what engineers do. They would have to be calculated for an EV-Train.
That the
'no-hands' cruise control hasn't been yet built is a clue for why even more
complicated things like an EV-Train have also not been built.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:56 PM
Subject: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
I think it's a fair request, and many of you live up to that. But
without naming any names, some on the list such as
Death to All Spammers (oops, it slipped) really leave a bad
feeling in this regard.
Read my last post to you - clearly and extensively states the reasons
for my doubts of your EV expectations and gives alternatives.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Erik Bigelow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jim,
About the rabid squirrel bit, you haven't seen or heard my motor
before but I found you describing how a motor shouldn't sound in
another post somewhere in the archives. My motor didn't seem to sound
like that, so I was happy I didn't know what a rabid squirrel sounded
like, yet (more on that in a bit).
> Okay good I thought I was loosing it 8^ ) I get a fair amount of pics and
some vid and sound, I try to remember and seperate all you guys but it can get
a bit nuts!
The whiteish stuff on the comm was really hard to get off, and didn't
budge with scraping with a QTip and alcohol. I used the comm stone on
a stick from Grainger, and the comm *looks* pretty now, but I may have
a rabid squirrel in training. There's a bit more of a clicking sound
than there used to be and the brushes don't ride completely smoothly.
(holding my finger on them while it's turning) I think what happened
is that the comm stone I used is thinner than the individual comm bars
and skipped each time it went over a groove and created a comm with
different height bars.
> Ahhh you just scraped all the crap off of it that was smoothing it out,
lmao! You'd of had to use a lot of force and stick to do damage to the comm
like your describe. You may have lifted bars, so check, but I'd bet it's just
a small arc or stall type mark due to that brush being worn out.
BTW you arn't running it over 12 volts freespin are you??
About the car, its about 3100 lbs (I think), 128V flooded 8Vs with
600A Raptor. Before me it probably had in the neighborhood of 50k
miles on it. It was run with a 96V setup then.
I dropped the motor off at a motor shop this morning, I should have a
call in a couple of days. The brushes were also somewhat angled, so I
think having the comm turned is at least a good place to start. I love
tinkering, but I wanted to stop before I really messed something up.
Thanks for all the advice!
> Okay, I see how it is, why pay for the milk when the cows free huh? LMAO!
Just kidding.
Have them look for loose bars while they have it. It'll show as cracks
along the molded comm and the bar edge when sever. Tapping a comm with a
wrench while you pinch your thumb hard against the comm edge is a good way to
check. If it's loose you can feel the bounce, you can (okay I can) also hear
the pitch between a loose and a tight comm this way 8^ )
A couple more things - when you said the grooves between the comm bars
were filled with crud, is there a good way to clean that with the
motor together?
> Not really, you could use an X-acto knife just to remove some of that
sticky forklift muck but it'd be so much easier just to pop the arm out.
Either way you're going to disturb the brushes and she'll chatter untill
reseated. I bet if we chopped you in two (I bet you didn't know I had a dark
side did you Erik??, LMAO) and one did the motor together way, and the other
took the motor apart, you'd find you spent way more time picking it throught
the windows. Besides if you pop it apart you can check the bearings and blow
everything out as well while your there. But then Hey I'm anal about things
like this 8^ P
Some of the individual strands of the wires going into the brushes are
broken, one looks to be missing about 15% of the connections. If I do
want to replace a brush is there any common wisdom about replacing
them in sets? Like replacing all at once or the four that touch the
same spot on the comm?
> Same thing here, do you want to replace 1/2 a set at a time or just bite
the bullet and buy a set of brushes for it. Budget can also effect this
choice. The brushes for these GE's are a lot more pricy than the ADC's, just
kind of a heads up!
Erik
Had fun, just teasing, hope all goes well
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our feelings are that if a single cell goes bad, we
will refurb the whole pack, rotating remainder cells
of any block into our own toys, testing, destruction,
etc. If too many occurances of failures, we revise
the BMS to be more comprehensive. We're already
planning for more BMS features. It's only a matter of
time, design, money, real world results, and history.
We will move forward, hopefully staying ahead of the
needs and wants of our customers. We have a new plan
for easier cell replacement too that we are testing.
We'll see.
Jay
--- Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jukka,
>
> Could you please elaborate on this and explain why
> you feel this is the
> case?
>
> Is it -- (if I understand Jay's description
> correctly) -- because their BMS
> apparently only goes to the block level (each block
> being 8 cells in
> parallel) but not to the individual cell level
> within blocks, such that
> there is apparently no way to bypass charging
> current around individual
> cells (that have already reached their top-of-charge
> voltage before others
> in the block) but rather only around an entire
> 8-cell-in-parallel block en
> masse, and thus would seem to be making an
> assumption and leap of faith that
> all 8 cells in each block will track absolutely
> dead-even with no variation
> in voltage over the supposedly 15-year calendar life
> claimed for these
> cells?
>
> I too was wondering about this, so I'm glad you
> raised the question.
>
> Another question in my mind is due to the fact (as I
> understand it from
> Jay's description) that the 8 cells in parallel in
> each block are all
> (high-current) tab-welded together, it would appear
> that when the weakest
> cell in the block utimately degrades to the point of
> needing replacement,
> (which, again, would seem to be made more likely at
> some point, or hastened,
> by the lack of BMS control circuitry to the
> individual cell level), it will
> therefore require replacing, at minimum, the entire
> 8-cell block (since
> they're all tab-welded together) rather than merely
> the one single errant
> cell.
>
> Any thoughts on that from either Jukka, Jay, or Bill
> Dube?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charles Whalen
>
>
> On Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:39 PM, Jukka
> Jarvinen wrote:
>
> > Sounds quite solid for me. you can get safe pack
> by this way. But I'm
> > afraid after certain point and much before
> intented a cell replacements
> > will be reality and frequent. Straining the
> "weakest link" in every cycle
> > will bring it down and fast.
> >
> > -Jukka
> >
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
> >> Mark and all,
> >> EV-Battery.com responding per question below:
> >>
> >> --- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >>> Can you give us some more details about these
> packs?
> >>
> >> We will post results and photos at
> www.EV-Battery.com
> >> as we receive and analyze results, probably
> updating
> >> the websites about every five days.
> >>
> >>> What does the BMS do?
> >>> (From simple V monitoring to fully temp
> compensated
> >>> V and I monitoring with over-charge regulation
> and over-discharge
> >>> protection...)
> >>
> >> Our first batteries are the 12 volt gasser
> batteries
> >> that require different BMS from stacked EV packs.
> The
> >> bigger switch-out packs (79.2V) will have BMS
> monitors
> >> that monitor voltage on each stack of eight
> paralleled
> >> cells. If this stack voltage gets too high, then
> it
> >> places a 3.3 ohm resistor across the stack,
> >> discharging the excess energy.
> >>
> >>> Can the BMS communicate with an external (to the
> >>> batt) device?
> >>> (Like a charger, fuel gauge, or logging
> computer)
> >>
> >> Three different sets of alarms are combined into
> >> �slow-down� or �stop� alarm signals.
First, if
> the
> >> voltage of a stack climbs dangerously high, an
> alarm
> >> is indicated which should be used to throttle the
> >> charger down to about one amp. A second alarm is
> sent
> >> if the stack voltage falls dangerously low,
> indicating
> >> the stack is out of charge and the load should be
> >> reduced or stopped. A third alarm source is the
> three
> >> temperature sensing thermistors in each module.
> Thresholds can be set for
> >> each of the BMS module�s
> >> three thermistors. If any temperatures get above
> >> their individual threshold, the alarm will again
> be
> >> signaled. All these alarms are indicated by
> turning
> >> on an opto-isolator on the BMS module. Because
> >> they're optoisolated, all the BMS modules in a
> pack
> >> can
> >> have their alarm signals wire-ORed in parallel to
> >> create one pack alarm signal.
> >>
> >>> Do you have photos of a completed pack?
> >>> (Lots of 3D mock-ups in your photo gallery)
> >>
> >> There are already some photos of our first gasser
> (12
> >> volt motorcycle batteries and 12 volt car batts)
> >> already there. Keep in mind that these are
> intended
> >> to be gasser replacement batteries targeted to
> the
> >> custom car and motorcycle show vehicles. Users
> are
> >> trying to stay away from acid damage to their
> >> expensive paint jobs and vehicles that sit for
> months
> >> (sometimes years) without driving. Many vehicles
> are
> >> primarily artistic and concept vehicles. Many of
> them
> >> would like to replace a 45 pound bulky battery
> with a
> >> 1 pound motorcycle battery or a 5 pound auto
> battery
> >> that can hide safely anywhere in any position.
> The
> >> motorcycle builders are talking about putting
> >> batteries inside their frames like a flashlight.
> The
> >> car guys are talking about a recessed floorboard
> mount
> >> with water cooler style lid. They are interested
> >> because there is no bulging, venting, toxic
> fumes,
> >> explosive, or fire dangers.
> >> We also realize that gasser batteries are not the
> >> focus of the EV List. So now, we have
> commitments to
> >> supply a few race cars (including Le Mans), and
> other
> >> traditional gassers with these first batteries.
> After
> >> gasser success, we will sell them to people that
> use
> >> them in electric vehicles, BUT we are going to be
> very
> >> careful that we only supply educated builders
> with
> >> logical applications within reasonable
> specifications.
> >> We are not ready to promote mainstream EVers to
> use
> >> our batteries (as series or parallel packs) until
> we
> >> are sure of performance and safety. We will not
> make
> >> the switch-out battery pack & case available to
> the
> >> general public until it is ready. We only have
> so
> >> much manufacturing ability and will restrain
> ourselves
> >> from claims of a universal solution.
> >>
> >>> How are the individual cells interconnected?
>
=== message truncated ===
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here is the email address of the sign company
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: ABC12.com: Electric truck is big on savings
Tom Carpenter sent you this from ABC12.com link:
Electric truck is big on savings
(10/19/06)-- A Shiawassee County man drives a pickup that many
people probably wish they had. He never has to stop at gas stations.
http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=automotive&id=4676232
Comments:
My Isuzu on local news
Yo, Tom, I want a "Powered by American Electrons" sticker, too! Who on
the list is selling those?
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