EV Digest 6045
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Audi R-Zero Electric Supercar
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Interstate Batteries vs. Optima's
by "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) How to build a Vortex (3-wheeler) from scratch
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Interstate Batteries vs. Optima's
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: 100 mile EV's and BB600, ni-cads
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Testing 123
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Gold Peak-resend
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: ABC12.com: Electric truck is big on savings
by "Hartsell, Fred" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: CX 500 Conversion
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Testing 123
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) After Market Electric power steering box
by Matt Evans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Interstate Batteries vs. Optima's
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 100 mile EV's and BB600, ni-cads
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: After Market Electric power steering box
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Searching Archives?
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) CX 500 Conversion
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Wacky 2 speed idea
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Wacky 2 speed idea
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Searching Archives?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Charging idea, Battery improvemnts
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
by =?windows-1252?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Heard anything about this car up till now?
http://www.hugg.com/story/Audi-RZero-Electric-Supercar/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Audi+R-Zero+Electric+Supercar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok Mike, first of all I'd recommend you tone down the ego a bit. Not
every comment (negative or positive) made on this list is about you.
Secondly, you seem to ignore the fact that MANY people told you how to
achieve parts of your goal. No single item you requested is impossible.
Collectively they are next to impossible using what's available today.
The only posts I recall from you on the subject of the 100 mile 914, you
wanted it all. Many folks told you the limits and asked which parts you
really needed, but I don't recall you responding. Then again I did get
tired of your insistance that you could get all of your requirements, so I
may have skipped a few posts.
Hmm, I don't recall another thread about a $25K EV that was based on a 914
and met ALL of your requirements. Must have missed that one too.
I do recall a couple threads on $25K vehicles that got bashed a bit,
3500lb Corvettes with unrealistic performance expectations, math errors,
and so forth.
And now for some free advice on how to avoid getting bashed (which I've
had my share of on this list):
Ask questions, if you don't understand the answers ask more questions.
These are good things.
Telling people with lots of experience they are wrong will get you bashed
UNLESS you can prove it.
Telling people that you don't like their answers because it doesn't meet
your goals will almost certainly get you bashed, so you might want to
avoid that too.
Drop the ego, everyone get's bashed on this list sooner or later. Usually
they deserve it, sometimes they don't. This list is made up of people,
with all the faults and virtues. Some of them have bad tempers, some have
bad days. Stuff happens, get over it.
> And so the newbie slips away and doesn't ask any more questions.
>
> In my defense I didn't say "tell me how to do this" I asked for advice on
> what could be done to try and achieve as many items on my wish list as I
> could.
>
> The answer it can't be done doesn't sit well, because it can be done,
> granted with great expense, but it CAN be done. I wasn't asking for a
> perpetual motion machine.
>
> I found it interesting that a subsequent thread went on to discuss just
> how
> you could build a $25,000 EV with all the items on my wish list, all
> without
> the newbie bashing.
>
> Now, I've learned a little more, I understand some of the limitations of
> lead batteries, and the fact that people selling EV parts apparently do
> exaggerate expectations. (personally I would call it lying to say you can
> get an 80-100 mile range on lead batteries, but that's just me)
>
> I still don't know how everything goes together to make a working EV, but
> that's something I am slowly learning on my own, because I am more
> reserved
> about asking anything here unless I understand the topic. But then why
> ask?
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:18 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
>
> Generally the list is pretty polite to newbies. However, when someone
> comes to the list and asks "tell me how to do this" and knowledgeable
> folks tell them "sorry can't be done" and the noob responds "Don't tell me
> it's not possible, help me figure out how to do the impossible", it tends
> to annoy some folks.
>
> We've actually had people come on this list and ask for help with
> over-unity ideas (over-unity is a machine that produces more energy than
> it uses, sort of like a perpetual motion machine on steriods).
>
> They say something like "I'm trying to do this, but having trouble getting
> it to work" and the list will say "The reason you can't get it to work, is
> because it CAN'T work, it violates the laws of physics" and, I kid you
> not, we had one guy say "well those laws were discovered over a hundred
> years ago, so surely we can improve on them by now. Besides I don't have
> any education to get in the way of my ideas, I read a book on magnetisim
> and I'm sure I've discovered a new way of doing it"
>
> If someone comes to the list and asks for advice, and then says "I don't
> like your advice and I disagree with all of your experience and knowledge
> because it's not the answer I wanted", well often the list doesn't respond
> well.
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings,
We are still trying to decide on batteries for our school conversion
project. The local Interstate dealer is giving us a discount on batteries
and we are therefore considering the Interstate DCS-100L (100 AH C20, AGM
Deep Cycle) for about $140 a piece. We are comparing 12 of these in series
for a 144V system versus 20 Optima D34's in 2 strings of 10 for a 120V
system. We are more concerned with range over acceleration and would like
to minimize complexity (fabrication and maintenance). Of course cost is
always a concern. Any thoughts?
Thanks again.
Martin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
May have been on the list before,
if you have too much time and consider building
your own donor - rheu - EV then see this guy
putting 1.5 year into getting an almost finished
2f1r light and aerodynamic twoseater.
http://www.briery.com/vortex/index.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
martin emde wrote:
> The local Interstate dealer is giving us a discount
> on batteries and we are therefore considering the
> Interstate DCS-100L (100 AH C20, AGM Deep Cycle) for
> about $140 a piece.
Should be a decent battery, and seems like a good price. I would not
expect them to last if you routinely demand high currents from them
(i.e. treat them like Concorde AGMs).
> We are comparing 12 of these in series for a 144V
> system versus 20 Optima D34's in 2 strings of 10 for a 120V
> system. We are more concerned with range over acceleration
> and would like to minimize complexity (fabrication and
> maintenance). Of course cost is always a concern. Any
> thoughts?
I would look at 12 of the Optima group 31 deep cycle BlueTops (D31M?) vs
the 12 DCS-100L string long before considering a double string of 10
D34s.
The group 31 Optimas are rated abou 75Ah C/20, as I recall, but if you
can find specs on the DCS-100Ls at higher rates you may well find that
at the rates you would be discharging them the Optimas have similar or
more usable capacity.
Certainly, while you you are more concerned with range than
acceleration, the Optimas will cope far better with the 500A+ currents I
would expect a 120-144V vehicle to demand.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michael and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: 100 mile EV's, RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small
request
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 22:56:17 -0400
>I didn't ignore you Jerry.
>
>It's just isn't a realistic option for me. I don't have the
>knowledge, experience or patience to build a lightweight
>glider from the ground up.
While that's a way to go, I also mentioned using
older, aleady built kitcars like a GT=40, Daytona Coupe, ect
which can be found used, inexpensive on ebay, kitcar lists,
ect. Many times under $1,000, just needing to switch out the
ICE for EV drive. Many with it already removed!
Or one can buy a glider new, already assembled from
Factory Five, ect that build them with everything done
except engine/transmission.
Another way is putting an aero VW Ghia/kitcar body,
ect on an older, lighter mini-truck chassis or hiring
someone to do it for you.
>
>Let me know when you have some of those Freedom EVs for
>sale and we'll talk.
They will be fairly limited for the first yr as I
learn how to build them eff, get the bugs out.
"You could even do it in NiCad surplus,
BB600's"
Don wrote;
The above statement is from below. I would not recommend the
BB600 battery
to anyone. I have been on the BB600 group for about a year
and monitoring the
efforts to use the BB600 batteries. I was considering them
myself until
reading all the posts about the endless list of problems.
Hundreds of
interconnects, manually watering hundreds of small single
cells and keeping them in
balance. If this is not enough to discourage you the never
ending list of other
problems should. They are around 35 Ah and 1.2 volts a 120
volt pack would
take 100 batteries and only be 34 Ah. 8000 dollars of these
would get you 800 or
so if you include shipping. 800 I believe would be around
500 more than any
one else has tried and only a few are near the 300 number.
If anyone is considering these batteries join the BB600
group.
Don
Don,
I'm sorry those of you trying them are having
such a hard time but I warned you all about the problems you
would have, no one listened, now thousands of them sit,
waiting to be used. Mostly though they are best for small,
lightweight EV's so the cell count, watering hassle doesn't
get to much. I wouldn't use them for other than a single
string of 35 amphrs.
Interconnects are easy, just different. While
watering is a pain, it's not bad considering how much you
save over AGM batteries. By designing their placement so
it's easy to water them and a charge routine that doesn't
make them go dry so fast, you can water them every month or
2. Not more hassle than changing the oil in a regular car.
You way paid too much for them at $10/each, I
wouldn't pay over $5/each with interconnects, they sold for
$1/each though shipping was more than that usually, as you
could buy SAFT auto watering, cooling versions for that
price though less peak amps, they weigh 2/3rds what single
BB600 cells do and would get him his 100 mile range even in
a 914 for about a $10k pack, less if he can find them used,
with a good drag reduction program.
But compared to the outragous cost of YT's, it's
BB600's or SAFTs for me instead. I have some BB600's and
will use them as my racing pack for autocross, drag racing.
With their full power, cap, even in winter,
ruggedness, and 20+ yr life, Ni-cads are a good choice for
many. Some SAFT's I have are over 30 yrs old and still
making over rated capacity!!
Good luck,
Jerry Dycus
>
>Mike
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jerryd
>Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:55 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: 100 mile EV's, RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
>
>
> Hi Michael and All,
> I told you, others a couple ways in the
>beginning how you could get what you want but you ignored
>it. The way is get a lightweight, aero, low drag glider so
>you can easily carry 100 mile range battery pack, about 50%
>vehicle/battery weight with good drag reduction technics,
>you could do it on under $10k if you didn't want dragster
>acceleration, settle for good acceleration instead. But
>even that can be had for well under $20k.
> You could even do it in Ni-cad surplus,
>BB600's, ect for a very reasonable price. About $8k worth
>of new ones would get me over 100 mile range. If I wanted
>to race, I'd go that BB600's, especially if in colder
>area's, before I'd ever go AGM.
>
>----- Original Message Follows -----
>From: "Michael Trefry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: Thin-skinned? Re: Small request
>Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2006 19:47:43 -0400
>
>>And so the newbie slips away and doesn't ask any more
>>questions.
>>
>>Now, I've learned a little more, I understand some of the
>>limitations of lead batteries, and the fact that people
>>selling EV parts apparently do exaggerate expectations.
>>(personally I would call it lying to say you can get an
>>80-100 mile range on lead batteries, but that's just me)
>
> Would you like to make a bet on that? I can think
>of some over 100 mile range on lead batteries EV's. While
>not common, they do exist. Mine will shortly.
>
>
>>
>>I still don't know how everything goes together to make a
>>working EV, but that's something I am slowly learning on
>>my own, because I am more reserved about asking anything
>>here unless I understand the topic. But then why ask?
>
> It's a free list and you get what you pay for ;^D .
>But if you stick around a while you learn who knows what.
>What you get here is equal to a college education in EV's,
>it's not free, you have to work on it.
> A faster way is read 3-6 months back posts instead of
>a couple TV shows, football game, ect, and you'll get a
>better idea of what works and doesn't. But one thing I can
>tell you, is here, over time is the best source of V info
>you will find anywhere.
> Another, faster way is join the EVWare list, a great
>archive of how to build eff, long range EV's from scratch.
>If you want to go faster, just put in a larger
>motor/controller.
> For a very fast, but low cost EV, you can combine a
>contactor controller/bypass with a less expensive E
>controller. But if you carry around a lot of extra weight,
>in an EV, you will pay for it.
> Jerry Dycus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
I can see your message but only after messing about to "view the
source" - what appears normally is this:
On 10/20/06, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Seems like most people with a yahoo or aol account are doing this
recently. Perhaps we could ask to change the list server to just
throw attachments away silently rather than replacing them with a text
part, as it must be causing hassle for lots of people.
Cheers
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am resending this as some how attachments got attach by yahoo. I did not
attach anything. Cut and pasted a URL but that is it. Hopefully this get
through. Evan Thank for the info. I already have 4 email accounts to monitor
and do not desire a 5th. Message copied below.
In looking up Gold Peak Battery to review the battery technology, I discovered
in the new products listing I discovered they purchased assets and license of
the Bolder Technology and plan on building the Bolder Cells. These are the
batteries that Kilcycle used to have before Bolder went out of business. No
data just a new product introduction.
www.goldpeak.com
Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Bruce,
I'm sure that's an important message so please re-send it without
attachments if you can :)
If yahoo won't let you I've sent you a gmail account which works
perfectly with the EVDL.
Regards
Evan
On 10/20/06, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
> * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> * (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
> * Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
> * If your postings display this message your mail program *
> * is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>
>
---------------------------------
Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Me,too. My EV is almost ready to go.
Thanks,
Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Death to All Spammers
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: ABC12.com: Electric truck is big on savings
> Tom Carpenter sent you this from ABC12.com link:
> Electric truck is big on savings
> (10/19/06)-- A Shiawassee County man drives a pickup that many
people probably wish they had. He never has to stop at gas stations.
> http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=automotive&id=4676232
>
> Comments:
> My Isuzu on local news
>
>
Yo, Tom, I want a "Powered by American Electrons" sticker, too! Who on
the list is selling those?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geoff,
I think you're correct.
The motor on these pretty much a rather large crankshaft/transmission
case that had two piston sleeves sticking out of it. The original idea
from the post was to use the transmission in-situ, which would mean that
the frame would remain intact.
If you're removing the tranny, you'd have to add frame tubes to make it
complete.
Photo: http://www.cruisercustomizing.com/uploads/kyle_2cx500.jpg
More photos:
http://images.google.com/images?q=honda%20cx%20500&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi
Geoff Linkleter wrote:
I'm sorry, I missed the beginig of this thread, but just a word of caution:
Was the ICE motor not a structural part of the frame on those old CX 500's?
I'm just going from memory, but it would be worth double checking.
Regards
Geoff
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Get a spam free email account - Visit http://www.bluebottle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Peter, all
Okay attempt three for Peter
Hey Peter
Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound
motor 8^P Gives you a little taste of my basic day
here, hehe.
Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in
good shape (not including grime). I use a water based
parts washer (a lot heathier than solvents, and they
make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water
out with my bake oven though. Make sure it dries out
well and put an ohm meter to it to make sure it's
ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do
this for both arm, and coils once re-installed) Sorry
if this pre-known knowlege, just figuered I'd chime in
8^ )
The grooving is mostly caused by the grit and grime
that was thrown at it. The uneven brush wear is
something I've heard contrary causes for. One being
the current has to move the full length of the comm
where the closer brush does not, and the comm edge has
more bounce and vibration, I believe probably a little
of both. The pitting on the short brush was due to it
shortening past the spring tension and loosing contact
with the comm. BTW that's a great pic of the brush
wear indicators which are those smaller wires. You
can see that they contacted the comm where the
insulation was wore out and made contact and lighted a
short brush light. Looks like they ignored it or
by-passed it though, what can you do!
One last thing that I'd advise you to do is seperate
and insulate those brush leads better. They don't put
a lot of insulation on them and I see a lot of shorts
on these type of leads. Being you'll be applying more
voltage than it was designed for this would be
something I'd make sure I did, just an FYI.
Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster
DE plate. You could have that machined off, at least
shaved down without hurting the plates strength, just
another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on the vehicle - the only way to know for sure is to try it. Even
shifting your ICE vehicle without the clutch is not necessarily a true
indicator, but it will give you some idea how it feels.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
>
> Clutchless conversions don't work well for everyone.
>
> Although I've never done it myself, several people have reported ( on this
> list) that they were not happy with a clutchless car that they had to
shift.
> Try shifting your ICE car without using the clutch. It can be done,
but
> it's VERY slow, takes a lot of concentration, and likely wears the heck
out
> of the synchros.
>
> Granted, there's less rotating inertia with the electric motor than the
> original ICE engine. but the same problem apparetly exists.
>
> Unless you're racing, the added flywheel/clutch inertia wouldn't make much
> difference. And, if you are racing, you want to be able to shift quickly,
> right?
>
> Phil
>
> >From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Subject: Re: Lightweight Flywheel? Limited Slip Diff
> >Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2006 22:23:18 -0700
> >
> >Electric conversions that use a manual transmissions do not need a
clutch.
> >It can be removed and in place a direct connection can be made. A lovejoy
> >coupling should be used. It is a hard rubber connection so that there is
a
> >little give when the motor starts.
> >
> >And if need be, the transmission can be shifted while moving for either a
> >lower or higher gear.
> >
> >Rush
> >Tucson AZ
> >www.ironandwood.org
> >
> >
> >Mark wrote
> >
> >
> > > Yes- on tran, need the flywheel for the clutch...
> > >
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces
>
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>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.4/480 - Release Date: 10/17/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jim, I hear you - but I have gotten a couple of your messages lately
that the body was missing, and the post said that the message was trunicated
(ie, parts removed) for HTML. Are you set for plain text?
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 7:06 PM
Subject: Testing 123
>
> Hey all
>
> I've had a few notes that I'm getting trumped here. I'm recieving it
back okay, and I haven't changed anything. Any Idea what's going on here??
>
> Does anybody HEAR Meeeeee 8..^ (
>
> Help!!!
> Jim Husted
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.8/489 - Release Date: 10/20/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw an ad for this in the latest issue of Muscle Mustangs and fast fords.
http://tinyurl.com/yl7cov
Looking at the price it appears to be made of solid platinum!! :0
Flaming river is a pretty well known name in the hotrod world and it
should be a pretty decent product.
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I have 13 C&D Dynasty DCS-100L AGMs in my Civic. I think these are
the same battery Interstate is selling. Mine are now 9 months old
and have less than 200 shallow cycles on them ( average discharge
12.7 AH). Their capacity has dropped to a fraction of their
ratings. When we tried a capacity test at 75 Amps most delivered
less than 20 AH. Under load test only two would hold even a 250 Amp
load. The Alber test found their internal resistance several times
higher than spec. Currently I have two going back to the factory,
one for disassembly and inspection, one for testing. The early
theory was that my Zivan NG5 was set wrong and chronically
undercharging them. After reviewing several of the charge/discharge
cycles I logged in the past using the E-meter and laptop, I no longer
believe this to be the cause. It looks to me like they were charged
correctly Hopefully the factory can determine exactly what is up.
Right now, I cannot recommend these batteries for EV use.
I have been looking at another possible battery for my car, the
Genesis XE95. Same size and weight as the DCS-100L but rated 73.5 AH
at the 1 hour rate, and much much higher cycle life. So far I
haven't been able to get a price quote, but I suspect they are much
more expensive than the Dynasty ones.
Honestly for your purposes, wouldn't flooded batteries make a better
choice? If range is your primary interest, and cost is an issue,
flooded batteries are really hard to beat.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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I am on that BB600 group. Here are my Nicad experiences.
>
> Don wrote;
> The above statement is from below. I would not recommend the
> BB600 battery
> to anyone. I have been on the BB600 group for about a year
> and monitoring the
> efforts to use the BB600 batteries. I was considering them
> myself until
> reading all the posts about the endless list of problems.
> Hundreds of
> interconnects,
The interconnects are alot of work to assemble. Using a cordless drill
set at low torque speeds up the assembly. Then going over each nut
with a torque wrench is important. The good news is that if a cell
goes bad you can replace it with another $10 cell. This happened to
me! If it were a lead acid battery, the whole battery gets junked and
you don't know if it's a bad cell or what the failure was. Cells go
for about $4.50, but their shipping, as with any other battery, brings
the price up to $9-$10 each.
>manually watering hundreds of small single cells
True. But I've had sealed lead acid batterys that I had to water
totalling 624 cells! Now that my Nicad pack is only 252 cells, I
checked the entire pack in 3 hours. It takes more time to R & R the
caps than it does to water the cells by a mile. It takes about 5-10
seconds to add water to a cell to the exact level required by the
manual. There are no signs of venting in the battery box. That may
imply that watering is a very rare requirement for my truck.
>and keeping them in balance.
This is the great part. Even a lead acid battery pack needs to remain
in balance. But you cannot check each cell or balance each cell! But
with these nicads you can. Yes it's more work but I consider it a
benefit that I can test each cell individually. The milspec manual
states that for balancing, take each nicad to 0.0 volts and hold them
there for 24hrs. Then recharge. Instant balancing. Would have to do it
slowly to avoid cell reversal by putting a light bulb across the
entire pack.
>If this is not enough to discourage you the never
> ending list of other
> problems should. They are around 35 Ah and 1.2 volts a 120
> volt pack would
> take 100 batteries and only be 34 Ah. 8000 dollars of these
> would get you 800 or
> so if you include shipping. 800 I believe would be around
> 500 more than any
> one else has tried and only a few are near the 300 number.
To get any life out of a lead pack the rule of thumb is do not go
lower than 50% dod. That's almost the same ah's available as my nicads
now provide over the old lead acid pack! Then don't forget that a lead
acid packs has a huge decrease in AH's avaialble when they get cold in
the winter. The Nicads winter drop is listed a small. I'll know more
as "winter" settles in here in California.
Remember that with lead acid packs, you still have cells in each
battery, that you *CANNOT* access for testing. You can get more AH's
from a lead acid pack. But the weight penalty is huge! My truck is now
1000 lbs lighter and it's efficiency is greatly increased not to
mention that acceleration, handling and the ride is vastly improved.
There are two trucks with AC systems testing these Nicads as we speak.
The fact that they pull much less current than a DC system may make
the nicads a better match for the vehicle. Info on these trucks is
posted sometimes here but mostly in the BB600 group.
Mike
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Matt Evans wrote:
I saw an ad for this in the latest issue of Muscle Mustangs and fast fords.
http://tinyurl.com/yl7cov
does that include a controller. here's another link that may be of interest
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/application.jsp?nodeId=02Wcbf07jS1504
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Can anyone explain the best way to search for keywords in the EVDL archives? I
tried
http://www.crest.org/ev-list-archive/
but got a 404 not found error. Thanks!
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Ah, I was visualising that the idea was literally just to keep the gearbox,
i.e. not the crank case..... hence the reason I was foreseeing problems
Geoff
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Coincidentally, I had the same idea, but I've decided not to pursue it.
Any chance you'd like to buy an old Volvo O/D unit? Contact me off-list.
-- Eric
Geoff Linkleter wrote:
I've wondered about doing this using the overdrive unit off something like an
old Volvo. You then get a 2 speed box with electric switch actuation. The
problem is that with direct connection to the electric motor there is no overal
ratio reduction...it would be like driving with the manual box having only 4th
and 5th avaialable
There are ways round this.... chain drive to motor or change crown wheel and
pinion but they are starting to get complex and / or expensive.
You would also need to do an electric reverse.
One of these days when I'm rich and have nothing else to do.......!
Geoff
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Eric, sorry, no.... I see too many problems with this set up as well, and
anyway I'm in England !
But thanks for the thought,
Geoff
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Bruce wrote:
Can anyone explain the best way to search for keywords in the EVDL archives? hh
there are several. try this one:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/
the textbox for searching is on the right. i usually start with single
words and get fancier as needed.
regards,
mike
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It depends through what channel are you buying. Plain cells should be
awailable for less than $2/ah world wide.
And how much does it cost as complete solution ?? (that's the next
question you'll be asking).
For now that is a bit delecade issue. Since mainly proto systems have
been made... But as there are already some users who actually might read
the list too...
Complete solutions with chargers (3kW) and fittings to an existing EV
have been around $8000 (11kWh) to 98000 (135kWh).
It is a plug and play solution. No tinkering allowed.
Cycle life at 70% DOD is 3000.
-Jukka
Death to All Spammers kirjoitti:
I have here cells which can handle 10 C nicely but TS datasheet says
only 3C. And those cells do survive that with out cry. The quality
of TS
cells have become better every day. TS even sell nearly same
chemisty as
Valence does. And those cells are as good as what you have there. Only
1/3th of the price. Add the CCS and you still have 2/5th of the price.
(With all that it actually becomes more or less comparable with
Valence.
a complete solution)
What is the current price for TS cells (and how do you figure shipping
rates to the West Coast)?
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIIHIMÄKI
jukka.jarvinen(at)fevt.com
cell phone +358-440-735705
wired phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
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In the tests I've done I found that parallering the cells you actually
force the cells to same voltage. At least it's trying it's best with
rotational currents (dunno the real term in English) to get them in
"balance".
But as it's known Lithium cells rarely can have SOC determination with
voltage. cells will maintain the voltage based balance and the weakest
(less capacity one but not necessary the highest impedance) paralled
cell will fail first. It may even short. With welded poles it's married
to 7 others. Worst case is that 7 times best current at the present
voltage level will be transformed to heat in the shorted cell. It may
not short completely but it will draw paralled cells to near 0 V.
Now... If that would have been Cobolt cell.. thermal runaway @ 180
Celsius, Manganese usually over 200 Celsius and Ferrites well over 300
Celsius. I think A123 and Valence has about the same limit. Can't say.
They have not been so interested to sell me any cells.. Wonder why...
So question is that can the paralled cells contribute enough power to
heat shorted cell enough. If your answer is yes.. problems ahead. If
No... You should be safe but frequent cell swapping should be scheduled
for sunday afternoons.
The single cell solution up to 10 000 ah from TS has same problem. That
is if you paraller the cells. But as single cell inside one case with
same electrolyte compartment.. It's another story. Such problem does not
exist.
Careful management of cells even in this 8 paralled cell design is best
way to go. you can get away with most problems by sorting the cells by
impedance and capacity.. Whatta F#€ .. AM I helping possible rivals
here.. damn I must be stupid :)
-Jukka
p.s- cause first!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
Our feelings are that if a single cell goes bad, we
will refurb the whole pack, rotating remainder cells
of any block into our own toys, testing, destruction,
etc. If too many occurances of failures, we revise
the BMS to be more comprehensive. We're already
planning for more BMS features. It's only a matter of
time, design, money, real world results, and history.
We will move forward, hopefully staying ahead of the
needs and wants of our customers. We have a new plan
for easier cell replacement too that we are testing.
We'll see.
Jay
--- Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Jukka,
Could you please elaborate on this and explain why
you feel this is the
case?
Is it -- (if I understand Jay's description
correctly) -- because their BMS
apparently only goes to the block level (each block
being 8 cells in
parallel) but not to the individual cell level
within blocks, such that
there is apparently no way to bypass charging
current around individual
cells (that have already reached their top-of-charge
voltage before others
in the block) but rather only around an entire
8-cell-in-parallel block en
masse, and thus would seem to be making an
assumption and leap of faith that
all 8 cells in each block will track absolutely
dead-even with no variation
in voltage over the supposedly 15-year calendar life
claimed for these
cells?
I too was wondering about this, so I'm glad you
raised the question.
Another question in my mind is due to the fact (as I
understand it from
Jay's description) that the 8 cells in parallel in
each block are all
(high-current) tab-welded together, it would appear
that when the weakest
cell in the block utimately degrades to the point of
needing replacement,
(which, again, would seem to be made more likely at
some point, or hastened,
by the lack of BMS control circuitry to the
individual cell level), it will
therefore require replacing, at minimum, the entire
8-cell block (since
they're all tab-welded together) rather than merely
the one single errant
cell.
Any thoughts on that from either Jukka, Jay, or Bill
Dube?
Thanks,
Charles Whalen
On Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:39 PM, Jukka
Jarvinen wrote:
Sounds quite solid for me. you can get safe pack
by this way. But I'm
afraid after certain point and much before
intented a cell replacements
will be reality and frequent. Straining the
"weakest link" in every cycle
will bring it down and fast.
-Jukka
[EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
Mark and all,
EV-Battery.com responding per question below:
--- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Can you give us some more details about these
packs?
We will post results and photos at
www.EV-Battery.com
as we receive and analyze results, probably
updating
the websites about every five days.
What does the BMS do?
(From simple V monitoring to fully temp
compensated
V and I monitoring with over-charge regulation
and over-discharge
protection...)
Our first batteries are the 12 volt gasser
batteries
that require different BMS from stacked EV packs.
The
bigger switch-out packs (79.2V) will have BMS
monitors
that monitor voltage on each stack of eight
paralleled
cells. If this stack voltage gets too high, then
it
places a 3.3 ohm resistor across the stack,
discharging the excess energy.
Can the BMS communicate with an external (to the
batt) device?
(Like a charger, fuel gauge, or logging
computer)
Three different sets of alarms are combined into
�slow-down� or �stop� alarm signals.
First, if
the
voltage of a stack climbs dangerously high, an
alarm
is indicated which should be used to throttle the
charger down to about one amp. A second alarm is
sent
if the stack voltage falls dangerously low,
indicating
the stack is out of charge and the load should be
reduced or stopped. A third alarm source is the
three
temperature sensing thermistors in each module.
Thresholds can be set for
each of the BMS module�s
three thermistors. If any temperatures get above
their individual threshold, the alarm will again
be
signaled. All these alarms are indicated by
turning
on an opto-isolator on the BMS module. Because
they're optoisolated, all the BMS modules in a
pack
can
have their alarm signals wire-ORed in parallel to
create one pack alarm signal.
Do you have photos of a completed pack?
(Lots of 3D mock-ups in your photo gallery)
There are already some photos of our first gasser
(12
volt motorcycle batteries and 12 volt car batts)
already there. Keep in mind that these are
intended
to be gasser replacement batteries targeted to
the
custom car and motorcycle show vehicles. Users
are
trying to stay away from acid damage to their
expensive paint jobs and vehicles that sit for
months
(sometimes years) without driving. Many vehicles
are
primarily artistic and concept vehicles. Many of
them
would like to replace a 45 pound bulky battery
with a
1 pound motorcycle battery or a 5 pound auto
battery
that can hide safely anywhere in any position.
The
motorcycle builders are talking about putting
batteries inside their frames like a flashlight.
The
car guys are talking about a recessed floorboard
mount
with water cooler style lid. They are interested
because there is no bulging, venting, toxic
fumes,
explosive, or fire dangers.
We also realize that gasser batteries are not the
focus of the EV List. So now, we have
commitments to
supply a few race cars (including Le Mans), and
other
traditional gassers with these first batteries.
After
gasser success, we will sell them to people that
use
them in electric vehicles, BUT we are going to be
very
careful that we only supply educated builders
with
logical applications within reasonable
specifications.
We are not ready to promote mainstream EVers to
use
our batteries (as series or parallel packs) until
we
are sure of performance and safety. We will not
make
the switch-out battery pack & case available to
the
general public until it is ready. We only have
so
much manufacturing ability and will restrain
ourselves
from claims of a universal solution.
How are the individual cells interconnected?
=== message truncated ===
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