EV Digest 6046
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Venturi Solar - Battery Hybrid
by Geoff Linkleter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Audi R-Zero Electric Supercar
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: FW: 250 amp breaker poping
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 100 mile EV's and BB600, ni-cads
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) rewiring a transformer for bad boy?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: CX 500 Conversion
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: GoWheel.com & EV-Battery.com
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor disected, datailed pics of gore and motor guts
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just in case people aren't aware of this
http://www.venturi.fr/index.php?article88
Geoff
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--- Begin Message ---
Just a concept design from some design student who doesn't know a
thing about engineering. That giant void in the middle of the car for
cooling is the most silly thing I've ever seen.
On 10/19/06, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Heard anything about this car up till now?
http://www.hugg.com/story/Audi-RZero-Electric-Supercar/
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Audi+R-Zero+Electric+Supercar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right, got that one and replied to it. I thought you had sent
something after this too.
Anyway, thanks for your input.
-Peter
On 10/20/06, Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Peter, all
Okay attempt three for Peter
Hey Peter
Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound
motor 8^P Gives you a little taste of my basic day
here, hehe.
Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in
good shape (not including grime). I use a water based
parts washer (a lot heathier than solvents, and they
make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water
out with my bake oven though. Make sure it dries out
well and put an ohm meter to it to make sure it's
ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do
this for both arm, and coils once re-installed) Sorry
if this pre-known knowlege, just figuered I'd chime in
8^ )
The grooving is mostly caused by the grit and grime
that was thrown at it. The uneven brush wear is
something I've heard contrary causes for. One being
the current has to move the full length of the comm
where the closer brush does not, and the comm edge has
more bounce and vibration, I believe probably a little
of both. The pitting on the short brush was due to it
shortening past the spring tension and loosing contact
with the comm. BTW that's a great pic of the brush
wear indicators which are those smaller wires. You
can see that they contacted the comm where the
insulation was wore out and made contact and lighted a
short brush light. Looks like they ignored it or
by-passed it though, what can you do!
One last thing that I'd advise you to do is seperate
and insulate those brush leads better. They don't put
a lot of insulation on them and I see a lot of shorts
on these type of leads. Being you'll be applying more
voltage than it was designed for this would be
something I'd make sure I did, just an FYI.
Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster
DE plate. You could have that machined off, at least
shaved down without hurting the plates strength, just
another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
http://www.hitorqueelectric.com
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--- Begin Message ---
OK listers...
What do we need in the way of Controllers and what would you folks pay for a
new design?
The specs list something like this:
96 to 450 volts. DC
550 to 1100 amps IGBT based.
Precahrge and contactor control.
Battery current and Motor current adjustable...With a 25 turn pot.. No
programming head or computer needed.
AIR COOLED! The heat sink from a PFC50 comes to mind, It's about %40 better
than the old Raptor Wakefield heat sink.
Of course water cooling is doable...for a price. But lets not go there right
yet.
High speed Real time Rev limter. Digi pot or Dip switch selectable RPMs.
PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound sensors
needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
Case size the 500 in a PFC30 case and Bigger one.. in a maybe a PFC50 case
But that's way too big.
Fine I will design a case that works the best.
This I think would cover 90% of the Demand.
Cost.. Around $2000. With enough over head to make our distributors happy.
Keep in mind I need $2000... mark up is going to be needed.
I am not pricing this product to be cheap, I am pricing it to be worth my
time to Jump back into Controller Hell, and maybe to Get Otmar out of
retirement.
Curtii are cheap, and will stay that way if you can get them to let you
order less than 50 Units at a time. BIG black mark for them on that front.
Otmar.. Hey dude I will come down there and work for you for free if it gets
Zk2s out the door faster.
I doubt that is going to happen... But that's how much respect I have for
His Gear and as a friend.
All this I don't want to do ... Otmar... Man where are you??? The EV world
is starving for controllers...
Vacumes get filled...
I have my own products to try to keep shipping on time...I can't... But I
can't let this Whole market die on the vine because of a lack of decent
controllers.
With a demand for 100s of Curtis and 1000 amp class controllers.. I can do
this, and pretty fast.
This whole product is the basic Guts to the 75K monster charger. Sans the
400 lbs transformer and water cooled rectifier Stack.
I lit if up again last night... it's getting chilly up here in Seattle.. and
40 lbs of Nichrome heat the shop rather nicely.
This stack of IGBT has moves soemthing like 5 Mega watt hours doing spave
heating chores.. so WE do have some real test time on the concept.
Since my DCP days, I have staid out of the controller market. Do I hear a
Pleade from the list to Get something out and Available??
Most of you know I still have a large chip on my shoulder about doing
controllers again.
I want to.. But should I???
Sincerley
Rich Rudman
aka Madman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: RE: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
> Phil Marino wrote:
>
> > >For a relatively small price increase over a Curtis you
> > >get a huge jump in features, making it a better value.
> >
> > The best price I've been able to find online for each (1221C
> > and Z 1K) are $1025 and $1975 respectively. That's close to
> > twice the price
>
> In all fairness, the 1221 is less than half the controller (400A vs
> 1000A), for more than half the price. I think the price comment is
> generally understood to refer to the difference between the two closest
> models, which are the 1231 and Z1K. The 1231 sells for $1425 vs the
> Z1K's $1975, which is less than 40% difference.
>
> > In addition, the Zilla requires a water-cooling pump and
> > radiator - likely more costly that the sheet of aluminum
> > that serves as a Curtis heatsink.
>
> A sheet of aluminum is not a heatsink. If you would use a flat plate to
> cool your Curtis, you would likely run the Zilla without plumbing the
> cooling system. ;^>
>
> I suspect the cost for the proper Curtis heatsink is remarkably similar
> to the cost of the water pump for the Zilla. I also expect that a rad
> is unnecessary in most cases and that simply circulating coolant through
> the controller from a tank is sufficient.
>
> > Please don't flame me as a Zilla basher. I'm sure the Zilla
> > is more than worth the difference, and you certainly get
> > MANY more features for your money. But these features are
> > not essential for a useful, practical EV.
>
> Not at all, you make good points. There are many people whose
> applications are not so demanding as to preclude the use of a Curtis.
> If you don't need to go over 120-144V, and have a light vehicle (don't
> need more than 500-550A *peak*), then a Curtis may do you fine. The
> Curtis will not deliver its full current once it heats up a bit, and
> will only deliver it for 2min when it starts off cold, but if your
> commute is relatively flat, etc. this may not matter.
>
> The superior cooling of the Zilla means that it is likely to deliver
> nearer to its full current whenever called upon to do so, and since its
> full current is at least 2x that of the biggest Curtis, even if you ran
> it without plumbing the cooling system you'd probably find that it
> resulted in a more powerful vehicle than the Curtis since it has to
> derate to less than half its max output before it drops to the *best* a
> Curtis will do when cold.
>
> The big feature that the Zilla (and the DCPs, when they were available)
> offer is rev limiting. I don't think the value of this feature on a DC
> car that retains the clutch should be underestimated. There is simply
> too much opportunity for someone to try to drive the car like an ICE and
> blow the motor before they figure out that you simply can't hear how
> fast its spinning, or for someone who knows to simply have a bad day and
> miss a shift, etc. Adding the cost of an external rev limiter (~$220)
> to the cost of the Curtis (1231), narrows the price gap to just $330 or
> 20% more for the 'Zilla than the Curtis.
>
> A 20% premium for at least 2x the current (2x the low end torque), plus
> all those other features that you may or may not need (series/parallel,
> reverse, etc) doesn't sound bad at all.
>
> The biggest strike against the Zilla right now is the lead time. If I
> were shopping for a controller right now, I'm afraid that unless I
> absolutely had to have a pack voltage over 144V, I'd be buying a 1231
> and external rev-limiter so I could get on the road, and would be
> looking to upgrade to a 'Z1K and sell off the Curtis once Otmar gets
> caught up with orders.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd pay zilla prices for zilla-equivalent performance. Any hope you could get
your controller to do double duty as a charger? That would save me $$, save
weight, and save space, and let you charge more $$.
----- Original Message ----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 10:15:04 AM
Subject: Re:EV controllers? the 4th option...
OK listers...
What do we need in the way of Controllers and what would you folks pay for a
new design?
The specs list something like this:
96 to 450 volts. DC
550 to 1100 amps IGBT based.
Precahrge and contactor control.
Battery current and Motor current adjustable...With a 25 turn pot.. No
programming head or computer needed.
AIR COOLED! The heat sink from a PFC50 comes to mind, It's about %40 better
than the old Raptor Wakefield heat sink.
Of course water cooling is doable...for a price. But lets not go there right
yet.
High speed Real time Rev limter. Digi pot or Dip switch selectable RPMs.
PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound sensors
needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
Case size the 500 in a PFC30 case and Bigger one.. in a maybe a PFC50 case
But that's way too big.
Fine I will design a case that works the best.
This I think would cover 90% of the Demand.
Cost.. Around $2000. With enough over head to make our distributors happy.
Keep in mind I need $2000... mark up is going to be needed.
I am not pricing this product to be cheap, I am pricing it to be worth my
time to Jump back into Controller Hell, and maybe to Get Otmar out of
retirement.
Curtii are cheap, and will stay that way if you can get them to let you
order less than 50 Units at a time. BIG black mark for them on that front.
Otmar.. Hey dude I will come down there and work for you for free if it gets
Zk2s out the door faster.
I doubt that is going to happen... But that's how much respect I have for
His Gear and as a friend.
All this I don't want to do ... Otmar... Man where are you??? The EV world
is starving for controllers...
Vacumes get filled...
I have my own products to try to keep shipping on time...I can't... But I
can't let this Whole market die on the vine because of a lack of decent
controllers.
With a demand for 100s of Curtis and 1000 amp class controllers.. I can do
this, and pretty fast.
This whole product is the basic Guts to the 75K monster charger. Sans the
400 lbs transformer and water cooled rectifier Stack.
I lit if up again last night... it's getting chilly up here in Seattle.. and
40 lbs of Nichrome heat the shop rather nicely.
This stack of IGBT has moves soemthing like 5 Mega watt hours doing spave
heating chores.. so WE do have some real test time on the concept.
Since my DCP days, I have staid out of the controller market. Do I hear a
Pleade from the list to Get something out and Available??
Most of you know I still have a large chip on my shoulder about doing
controllers again.
I want to.. But should I???
Sincerley
Rich Rudman
aka Madman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: RE: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
> Phil Marino wrote:
>
> > >For a relatively small price increase over a Curtis you
> > >get a huge jump in features, making it a better value.
> >
> > The best price I've been able to find online for each (1221C
> > and Z 1K) are $1025 and $1975 respectively. That's close to
> > twice the price
>
> In all fairness, the 1221 is less than half the controller (400A vs
> 1000A), for more than half the price. I think the price comment is
> generally understood to refer to the difference between the two closest
> models, which are the 1231 and Z1K. The 1231 sells for $1425 vs the
> Z1K's $1975, which is less than 40% difference.
>
> > In addition, the Zilla requires a water-cooling pump and
> > radiator - likely more costly that the sheet of aluminum
> > that serves as a Curtis heatsink.
>
> A sheet of aluminum is not a heatsink. If you would use a flat plate to
> cool your Curtis, you would likely run the Zilla without plumbing the
> cooling system. ;^>
>
> I suspect the cost for the proper Curtis heatsink is remarkably similar
> to the cost of the water pump for the Zilla. I also expect that a rad
> is unnecessary in most cases and that simply circulating coolant through
> the controller from a tank is sufficient.
>
> > Please don't flame me as a Zilla basher. I'm sure the Zilla
> > is more than worth the difference, and you certainly get
> > MANY more features for your money. But these features are
> > not essential for a useful, practical EV.
>
> Not at all, you make good points. There are many people whose
> applications are not so demanding as to preclude the use of a Curtis.
> If you don't need to go over 120-144V, and have a light vehicle (don't
> need more than 500-550A *peak*), then a Curtis may do you fine. The
> Curtis will not deliver its full current once it heats up a bit, and
> will only deliver it for 2min when it starts off cold, but if your
> commute is relatively flat, etc. this may not matter.
>
> The superior cooling of the Zilla means that it is likely to deliver
> nearer to its full current whenever called upon to do so, and since its
> full current is at least 2x that of the biggest Curtis, even if you ran
> it without plumbing the cooling system you'd probably find that it
> resulted in a more powerful vehicle than the Curtis since it has to
> derate to less than half its max output before it drops to the *best* a
> Curtis will do when cold.
>
> The big feature that the Zilla (and the DCPs, when they were available)
> offer is rev limiting. I don't think the value of this feature on a DC
> car that retains the clutch should be underestimated. There is simply
> too much opportunity for someone to try to drive the car like an ICE and
> blow the motor before they figure out that you simply can't hear how
> fast its spinning, or for someone who knows to simply have a bad day and
> miss a shift, etc. Adding the cost of an external rev limiter (~$220)
> to the cost of the Curtis (1231), narrows the price gap to just $330 or
> 20% more for the 'Zilla than the Curtis.
>
> A 20% premium for at least 2x the current (2x the low end torque), plus
> all those other features that you may or may not need (series/parallel,
> reverse, etc) doesn't sound bad at all.
>
> The biggest strike against the Zilla right now is the lead time. If I
> were shopping for a controller right now, I'm afraid that unless I
> absolutely had to have a pack voltage over 144V, I'd be buying a 1231
> and external rev-limiter so I could get on the road, and would be
> looking to upgrade to a 'Z1K and sell off the Curtis once Otmar gets
> caught up with orders.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
when you say series, you the go through one, then
another on the same 120v+ line or put the 120+ and
120- through each breaker?
--- Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Michael,
> which breaker are you using? I'm using the Airpax
> AIR-250A-160V - $30 EACH from solarseller.com
>
>
http://www.solarseller.com/dc_circuit_breakers__dc_circuit_breaker_ul_listed_to_125_volts_dc.htm
>
> Since I'm running 192V I'm going series through two
> breakers. When I was doing performance testing I
> could do several 0-60mph
> runs at full acceleration without blowing the
> breakers. Only 1 time did the breakers ever pop.
> This was after about 5 hard
> accelerations. The breakers were warm to the touch,
> but cooled off in a couple minutes. But it
> interrupted at around 900 amps.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of mike golub
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:25 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: 250 amp breaker poping
> >
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > I have this 86 toyota PU running with a 9"warp, a
> > logisystem controller 1209 at 550amp/120v, and 20
> > 6volt sam's club batteries.
> >
> > Only using a 250 amp breaker, but it seems to pop
> to
> > frequently. Even though my emeter says I'm at 150
> it
> > can pop.
> >
> > Perhaps I should upgrade with 4 more batteries,
> > becuase I have a 144volt controller.
> >
> > But is there a cheap place to get a 400amp
> breaker?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Michael Golub
> > Fairbanks
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
How do I see the BB600 group? what is its URL and method of enrollment. I
am interested in maybe purchasing about 300 of these cells myself. Where
can I get them new and cheap? Is there a repository of knowledge base on
this cell somewhere? Thanks
JJ
> I am on that BB600 group. Here are my Nicad experiences.
>
>
>>
>> Don wrote;
>> The above statement is from below. I would not recommend the
>> BB600 battery
>> to anyone. I have been on the BB600 group for about a year
>> and monitoring the
>> efforts to use the BB600 batteries. I was considering them
>> myself until
>> reading all the posts about the endless list of problems.
>> Hundreds of
>> interconnects,
>
> The interconnects are alot of work to assemble. Using a cordless drill
> set at low torque speeds up the assembly. Then going over each nut with
> a torque wrench is important. The good news is that if a cell goes bad
> you can replace it with another $10 cell. This happened to me! If it
> were a lead acid battery, the whole battery gets junked and you don't
> know if it's a bad cell or what the failure was. Cells go for about
> $4.50, but their shipping, as with any other battery, brings the price
> up to $9-$10 each.
>
>
>>manually watering hundreds of small single cells
>
> True. But I've had sealed lead acid batterys that I had to water
> totalling 624 cells! Now that my Nicad pack is only 252 cells, I
> checked the entire pack in 3 hours. It takes more time to R & R the caps
> than it does to water the cells by a mile. It takes about 5-10 seconds
> to add water to a cell to the exact level required by the
> manual. There are no signs of venting in the battery box. That may imply
> that watering is a very rare requirement for my truck.
>
>>and keeping them in balance.
>
> This is the great part. Even a lead acid battery pack needs to remain in
> balance. But you cannot check each cell or balance each cell! But with
> these nicads you can. Yes it's more work but I consider it a
> benefit that I can test each cell individually. The milspec manual
> states that for balancing, take each nicad to 0.0 volts and hold them
> there for 24hrs. Then recharge. Instant balancing. Would have to do it
> slowly to avoid cell reversal by putting a light bulb across the
> entire pack.
>
>>If this is not enough to discourage you the never
>> ending list of other
>> problems should. They are around 35 Ah and 1.2 volts a 120
>> volt pack would
>> take 100 batteries and only be 34 Ah. 8000 dollars of these
>> would get you 800 or
>> so if you include shipping. 800 I believe would be around
>> 500 more than any
>> one else has tried and only a few are near the 300 number.
>
> To get any life out of a lead pack the rule of thumb is do not go
> lower than 50% dod. That's almost the same ah's available as my nicads
> now provide over the old lead acid pack! Then don't forget that a lead
> acid packs has a huge decrease in AH's avaialble when they get cold in
> the winter. The Nicads winter drop is listed a small. I'll know more as
> "winter" settles in here in California.
>
> Remember that with lead acid packs, you still have cells in each
> battery, that you *CANNOT* access for testing. You can get more AH's
> from a lead acid pack. But the weight penalty is huge! My truck is now
> 1000 lbs lighter and it's efficiency is greatly increased not to
> mention that acceleration, handling and the ride is vastly improved.
>
> There are two trucks with AC systems testing these Nicads as we speak.
> The fact that they pull much less current than a DC system may make the
> nicads a better match for the vehicle. Info on these trucks is posted
> sometimes here but mostly in the BB600 group.
>
> Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
phil, thank you for this post. i just ordered a kit from KTA using a
1231C-7701 for my 120v system. after reading all these posts from the
zilla enthusiasts, you begin to doubt your choices.
I could say as many good thing about the " other controllers" out there as I
could about the zilla .
I was very happy with my 120v set up which I drove , and pulled a lawn
trail/mower for over 5 years .
for me price is
very important. i only have a $15,000 total budget, including donor!
ahh , well all that will change on your next EV ,
sometimes on the advice on the list makes it hard to separate "nice to
have" from "must have."
yep ,
it is easy to get excited about the next
bigger/better thing and want it, even though we may not *need* it.
yep , I can see no 2 for you already , I'd say 2 years , maybe less
i agree that the zilla sounds like a great controller, maybe i'll have one
some day.
in no 2 :-) but for now I think you made the right choise as
Most importan , you can get the other controller today , so your project can
get on the road.
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
well I took the windings off this transformer.
I cut the wires with a air cutter.
It seems I was supposed to take the plates apart, but
I made a mess instead.
Lee Hart said to rewire with 12 ga wire.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/tech/bonn_charger.html
I used some 25ft of 10 ga twisted pair. Does it
matter?
Also it was hard to get the coil really tight on the
transformer. Perhaps that's why I should use solid
wire, and open up the "E" from the "I".
So charging my 120v pack now draws about have the amps
as it used to. Which is god, because I was blowing
breakers when pulling 18-22amps at times.
So how much electricity is wasted on that coil...it
does heat up. Need to add a tap, and a capacitor.
Thanks
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--- Begin Message ---
The clutch (and hence input to the transmission) is actually at the
front of the crankcase, right behind the front wheel. It's laid out a
bit weird.
Geoff Linkleter wrote:
Ah, I was visualising that the idea was literally just to keep the gearbox,
i.e. not the crank case..... hence the reason I was foreseeing problems
Geoff
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter, here's the text of that email:
Jim Justed wrote:
On 10/19/06, Jim Husted wrote:
Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound motor 8^P Gives you a
little taste of my basic day here, hehe.
Yeah, can't believe you deal with this stuff for a living AND for fun! :)
I'm a sick pup, what can I say. It does sound a little sicker when I read it though, LMAO! It ain't all fun, lots of days where I am quite the sailor 8^ o
Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in good shape (not including
grime). I use a water based parts washer (a lot heathier than solvents, and
they make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water out with my bake oven
though. Make sure it dries out well and put an ohm meter to it to make sure
it's ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do this for both arm,
and coils once re-installed) Sorry if this pre-known knowlege, just figuered
I'd chime in 8^ )
Any input is always welcome.
I hate to assume people know things before that's established. It's a bummer to hear about someone being upset that something didn't go as planned becaue no one stepped up to comment on something they know about. I loath the 2 steps back thing myself 8^P Of course some of my best learned lessons come from havong to rework something 8^}
I've actually cleaned it up quite a bit since these pictures were
taken. The field coils are missing insulation in a couple of places
but they look fixable. I used mostly non solvent based engine
degreaser, and some ovencleaner on the motor housing. The oven cleaner
took the ugly paint off too so it can't be used on anything with
insulation.
Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster DE plate. You could have
that machined off, at least shaved down without hurting the plates strength,
just another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
I'm planning on machining that thing down, I will probably go through
a whole bit getting rid of the snout.
Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
Thanks for your advice!
-Peter
Sounds good I'd like to hear how she works for you when you get her up and
running.
Hope all goes as planned 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, never mind. Just found the "show original" button :)
On 10/20/06, Peter Gabrielsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks, how come some peolpe get the truncated msg and other people
can read the whole email?
On 10/20/06, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Peter, here's the text of that email:
>
> Jim Justed wrote:
>
> On 10/19/06, Jim Husted wrote:
> > Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound motor 8^P Gives you a
little taste of my basic day here, hehe.
>
> >>Yeah, can't believe you deal with this stuff for a living AND for fun! :)
>
> I'm a sick pup, what can I say. It does sound a little sicker when I read it
though, LMAO! It ain't all fun, lots of days where I am quite the sailor 8^ o
>
> > Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in good shape (not
including grime). I use a water based parts washer (a lot heathier than solvents, and
they make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water out with my bake oven
though. Make sure it dries out well and put an ohm meter to it to make sure it's
ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do this for both arm, and coils
once re-installed) Sorry if this pre-known knowlege, just figuered I'd chime in 8^ )
>
> >>Any input is always welcome.
>
> I hate to assume people know things before that's established. It's a
bummer to hear about someone being upset that something didn't go as planned
becaue no one stepped up to comment on something they know about. I loath the 2
steps back thing myself 8^P Of course some of my best learned lessons come from
havong to rework something 8^}
>
> >>I've actually cleaned it up quite a bit since these pictures were
> taken. The field coils are missing insulation in a couple of places
> but they look fixable. I used mostly non solvent based engine
> degreaser, and some ovencleaner on the motor housing. The oven cleaner
> took the ugly paint off too so it can't be used on anything with
> insulation.
>
> >> Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster DE plate. You could
have that machined off, at least shaved down without hurting the plates strength, just
another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
>
> I'm planning on machining that thing down, I will probably go through
> a whole bit getting rid of the snout.
>
> >> Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
> Thanks for your advice!
>
> -Peter
>
> Sounds good I'd like to hear how she works for you when you get her up and
running.
> Hope all goes as planned 8^ )
>
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As per Otmar's blog (http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/), he plans to
catch up to Sept orders of Z2Ks by the end of Oct. He has (evidently)
hired a new helper, but it takes considerable time to train someone to
build a controller.
Otmar (if you even read the list still!): Is the long training time
because you're training someone who knows nothing about soldering and
electronics construction? I can't believe your design is so unique that
an electronics tech couldn't put one together with a schematic and a
silkscreened PCBs.
Rich:
FWIW, I want to get myself a Z1K HV, but I know there's a long wait.
I've started to look for alternatives, and I'm a bit disappointed.
I hope you're kidding about the 25 turn pot for current limits. Sounds
like it'd be a nightmare to adjust, since it's really hard to know
exactly where it's set, and testing the setpoint is ... problematic.
Rich Rudman wrote:
OK listers...
What do we need in the way of Controllers and what would you folks pay for a
new design?
The specs list something like this:
96 to 450 volts. DC
550 to 1100 amps IGBT based.
Precahrge and contactor control.
Battery current and Motor current adjustable...With a 25 turn pot.. No
programming head or computer needed.
AIR COOLED! The heat sink from a PFC50 comes to mind, It's about %40 better
than the old Raptor Wakefield heat sink.
Of course water cooling is doable...for a price. But lets not go there right
yet.
High speed Real time Rev limter. Digi pot or Dip switch selectable RPMs.
PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound sensors
needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
Case size the 500 in a PFC30 case and Bigger one.. in a maybe a PFC50 case
But that's way too big.
Fine I will design a case that works the best.
This I think would cover 90% of the Demand.
Cost.. Around $2000. With enough over head to make our distributors happy.
Keep in mind I need $2000... mark up is going to be needed.
I am not pricing this product to be cheap, I am pricing it to be worth my
time to Jump back into Controller Hell, and maybe to Get Otmar out of
retirement.
Curtii are cheap, and will stay that way if you can get them to let you
order less than 50 Units at a time. BIG black mark for them on that front.
Otmar.. Hey dude I will come down there and work for you for free if it gets
Zk2s out the door faster.
I doubt that is going to happen... But that's how much respect I have for
His Gear and as a friend.
All this I don't want to do ... Otmar... Man where are you??? The EV world
is starving for controllers...
Vacumes get filled...
I have my own products to try to keep shipping on time...I can't... But I
can't let this Whole market die on the vine because of a lack of decent
controllers.
With a demand for 100s of Curtis and 1000 amp class controllers.. I can do
this, and pretty fast.
This whole product is the basic Guts to the 75K monster charger. Sans the
400 lbs transformer and water cooled rectifier Stack.
I lit if up again last night... it's getting chilly up here in Seattle.. and
40 lbs of Nichrome heat the shop rather nicely.
This stack of IGBT has moves soemthing like 5 Mega watt hours doing spave
heating chores.. so WE do have some real test time on the concept.
Since my DCP days, I have staid out of the controller market. Do I hear a
Pleade from the list to Get something out and Available??
Most of you know I still have a large chip on my shoulder about doing
controllers again.
I want to.. But should I???
Sincerley
Rich Rudman
aka Madman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The effects you cite are under testing now. We
believe we can learn more and improve. We are
prepared to honor and support warrantees better than
anyone might expect. We welcome your input and
competition. There are so many form factors and types
of applications. It's a big marketplace. Already we
are trying to avoid backorders. Maybe you can help
lower costs.
--- Jukka J�rvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> In the tests I've done I found that parallering the
> cells you actually
> force the cells to same voltage. At least it's
> trying it's best with
> rotational currents (dunno the real term in English)
> to get them in
> "balance".
>
> But as it's known Lithium cells rarely can have SOC
> determination with
> voltage. cells will maintain the voltage based
> balance and the weakest
> (less capacity one but not necessary the highest
> impedance) paralled
> cell will fail first. It may even short. With welded
> poles it's married
> to 7 others. Worst case is that 7 times best current
> at the present
> voltage level will be transformed to heat in the
> shorted cell. It may
> not short completely but it will draw paralled cells
> to near 0 V.
>
> Now... If that would have been Cobolt cell.. thermal
> runaway @ 180
> Celsius, Manganese usually over 200 Celsius and
> Ferrites well over 300
> Celsius. I think A123 and Valence has about the same
> limit. Can't say.
> They have not been so interested to sell me any
> cells.. Wonder why...
>
> So question is that can the paralled cells
> contribute enough power to
> heat shorted cell enough. If your answer is yes..
> problems ahead. If
> No... You should be safe but frequent cell swapping
> should be scheduled
> for sunday afternoons.
>
> The single cell solution up to 10 000 ah from TS has
> same problem. That
> is if you paraller the cells. But as single cell
> inside one case with
> same electrolyte compartment.. It's another story.
> Such problem does not
> exist.
>
> Careful management of cells even in this 8 paralled
> cell design is best
> way to go. you can get away with most problems by
> sorting the cells by
> impedance and capacity.. Whatta F#� .. AM I
helping
> possible rivals
> here.. damn I must be stupid :)
>
> -Jukka
>
> p.s- cause first!
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
> > Our feelings are that if a single cell goes bad,
> we
> > will refurb the whole pack, rotating remainder
> cells
> > of any block into our own toys, testing,
> destruction,
> > etc. If too many occurances of failures, we
> revise
> > the BMS to be more comprehensive. We're already
> > planning for more BMS features. It's only a
> matter of
> > time, design, money, real world results, and
> history.
> > We will move forward, hopefully staying ahead of
> the
> > needs and wants of our customers. We have a new
> plan
> > for easier cell replacement too that we are
> testing.
> > We'll see.
> > Jay
> >
> > --- Charles Whalen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> Jukka,
> >>
> >> Could you please elaborate on this and explain
> why
> >> you feel this is the
> >> case?
> >>
> >> Is it -- (if I understand Jay's description
> >> correctly) -- because their BMS
> >> apparently only goes to the block level (each
> block
> >> being 8 cells in
> >> parallel) but not to the individual cell level
> >> within blocks, such that
> >> there is apparently no way to bypass charging
> >> current around individual
> >> cells (that have already reached their
> top-of-charge
> >> voltage before others
> >> in the block) but rather only around an entire
> >> 8-cell-in-parallel block en
> >> masse, and thus would seem to be making an
> >> assumption and leap of faith that
> >> all 8 cells in each block will track absolutely
> >> dead-even with no variation
> >> in voltage over the supposedly 15-year calendar
> life
> >> claimed for these
> >> cells?
> >>
> >> I too was wondering about this, so I'm glad you
> >> raised the question.
> >>
> >> Another question in my mind is due to the fact
> (as I
> >> understand it from
> >> Jay's description) that the 8 cells in parallel
> in
> >> each block are all
> >> (high-current) tab-welded together, it would
> appear
> >> that when the weakest
> >> cell in the block utimately degrades to the point
> of
> >> needing replacement,
> >> (which, again, would seem to be made more likely
> at
> >> some point, or hastened,
> >> by the lack of BMS control circuitry to the
> >> individual cell level), it will
> >> therefore require replacing, at minimum, the
> entire
> >> 8-cell block (since
> >> they're all tab-welded together) rather than
> merely
> >> the one single errant
> >> cell.
> >>
> >> Any thoughts on that from either Jukka, Jay, or
> Bill
> >> Dube?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Charles Whalen
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:39 PM, Jukka
> >> Jarvinen wrote:
> >>
> >>> Sounds quite solid for me. you can get safe pack
> >> by this way. But I'm
> >>> afraid after certain point and much before
> >> intented a cell replacements
> >>> will be reality and frequent. Straining the
> >> "weakest link" in every cycle
> >>> will bring it down and fast.
> >>>
> >>> -Jukka
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] kirjoitti:
> >>>> Mark and all,
> >>>> EV-Battery.com responding per question below:
> >>>>
> >>>> --- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>> Can you give us some more details about these
> >> packs?
> >>>> We will post results and photos at
> >> www.EV-Battery.com
> >>>> as we receive and analyze results, probably
> >> updating
> >>>> the websites about every five days.
> >>>>
> >>>>> What does the BMS do?
> >>>>> (From simple V monitoring to fully temp
> >> compensated
> >>>>> V and I monitoring with over-charge regulation
> >> and over-discharge
> >>>>> protection...)
> >>>> Our first batteries are the 12 volt gasser
> >> batteries
> >>>> that require different BMS from stacked EV
> packs.
> >> The
> >>>> bigger switch-out packs (79.2V) will have BMS
> >> monitors
> >>>> that monitor voltage on each stack of eight
> >> paralleled
> >>>> cells. If this stack voltage gets too high,
> then
> >> it
> >>>> places a 3.3 ohm resistor across the stack,
> >>>> discharging the excess energy.
> >>>>
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, how come some peolpe get the truncated msg and other people
can read the whole email?
On 10/20/06, Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Peter, here's the text of that email:
Jim Justed wrote:
On 10/19/06, Jim Husted wrote:
> Man, all that grunting on that "little" hundred pound motor 8^P Gives you a
little taste of my basic day here, hehe.
>>Yeah, can't believe you deal with this stuff for a living AND for fun! :)
I'm a sick pup, what can I say. It does sound a little sicker when I read it
though, LMAO! It ain't all fun, lots of days where I am quite the sailor 8^ o
> Okay, first off both the arm and field coils look in good shape (not
including grime). I use a water based parts washer (a lot heathier than solvents,
and they make some good soaps now) but I also bake the water out with my bake oven
though. Make sure it dries out well and put an ohm meter to it to make sure it's
ground free (a short from any copper to any steel) (do this for both arm, and
coils once re-installed) Sorry if this pre-known knowlege, just figuered I'd chime
in 8^ )
>>Any input is always welcome.
I hate to assume people know things before that's established. It's a bummer
to hear about someone being upset that something didn't go as planned becaue no
one stepped up to comment on something they know about. I loath the 2 steps
back thing myself 8^P Of course some of my best learned lessons come from
havong to rework something 8^}
>>I've actually cleaned it up quite a bit since these pictures were
taken. The field coils are missing insulation in a couple of places
but they look fixable. I used mostly non solvent based engine
degreaser, and some ovencleaner on the motor housing. The oven cleaner
took the ugly paint off too so it can't be used on anything with
insulation.
>> Only real bummer about this motor is the funky Hyster DE plate. You could
have that machined off, at least shaved down without hurting the plates strength,
just another FYI, probably shave 5 lbs off to boot 8^ )
I'm planning on machining that thing down, I will probably go through
a whole bit getting rid of the snout.
>> Hope this helps, and welcome to my world 8^ )
Thanks for your advice!
-Peter
Sounds good I'd like to hear how she works for you when you get her up and
running.
Hope all goes as planned 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
I'd pay zilla prices for zilla-equivalent performance. Any hope you could get
your controller to do double duty as a charger? That would save me $$, save
weight, and save space, and let you charge more $$.
Oddly, several years ago (1996 or 1997), I wondered aloud on this list
why chargers and controllers were inherently separate, and why you
couldn't build a device that was both, so you could use the expensive
silicon switches for two purposes. It was mocked and shot down. Then
a couple of years later, there was a post about someone (or company)
doing just that. Much applause and support for such an innovative
idea. I don't think the product ever actually manifested itself into
something you could actually buy.
I've done a search on Google for the original posts, but the EV
"archive" being what it is, this has been fruitless.
Now, a battery charger manufacturer and EV enthusiast is talking about
adapting a high power charger to act as a high-power controller, and Mr
Dymaxion suggested that perhaps it could be both(!)
To say the least, I'm interested to see how this might pan out.
--- End Message ---
