EV Digest 6047
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Electric transportation solutions- ???
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Charger / Controller Combo (Was EV controllers? the 4th option...)
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Charger / Controller Combo (Was EV controllers? the 4th option...)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Nickel Iron Batteries for sale
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re:EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Steve Lacy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) More wacky ideas for extending range
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 100 mile EV's and BB600, ni-cads
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) BB600 grupo info
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Audi R-Zero Electric Supercar
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) For Sale: #40 sprockets 14T 7/8" Bore
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) FS: DCP Raptor 600 Motor Controller
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Small correction Re: For Sale: #40 sprockets 14T 7/8' Bore
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Ni-Cad Cell Reversal
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Is anyone familiar with this company? I wanted to order something
here yet i have sent e-mails and made repeated calls with no answers.
I am concerned they may not be legit or they have the worst customer
service ever. Selling cars ar
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, the company was AC Propulsion, the pioneer of the T-Zero, whose system is
either used or licensed in the Tesla and Wrightspeed, etc.
Here is a link:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Products/Reductive_Charging.htm
Regards,
Chet
--- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Oddly, several years ago (1996 or 1997), I wondered aloud on this list
> why chargers and controllers were inherently separate, and why you
> couldn't build a device that was both, so you could use the expensive
> silicon switches for two purposes. It was mocked and shot down. Then
> a couple of years later, there was a post about someone (or company)
> doing just that. Much applause and support for such an innovative
> idea. I don't think the product ever actually manifested itself into
> something you could actually buy.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
steve clunn wrote:
ahh , well all that will change on your next EV ,
sometimes on the advice on the list makes it hard to separate "nice to
have" from "must have."
yep ,
it is easy to get excited about the next
bigger/better thing and want it, even though we may not *need* it.
yep , I can see no 2 for you already , I'd say 2 years , maybe less
steve, must be psychic. my plan (hence small budget on first one) is to
learn (ruin? murder? hehe) on this first one, while planning for the
second one. i'd love to do a ground up, purpose built EV but it was
just too much to bite off the first time...lol...maybe the second time
too ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chet,
Sometime ago, before there was a WEB, I seen a paper on a motor-generator
(regen system) that charge the batteries by using the controller.
The motor was a AC unit, that could be run by AC commercial power, this then
using the regen circuits, charge the batteries.
I never search the WEB for this method, but it could be in there some place.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chet Fields" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Charger / Controller Combo (Was EV controllers? the 4th option...)
>
> Yes, the company was AC Propulsion, the pioneer of the T-Zero, whose
> system is
> either used or licensed in the Tesla and Wrightspeed, etc.
>
> Here is a link:
>
> http://www.acpropulsion.com/Products/Reductive_Charging.htm
>
> Regards,
> Chet
>
> --- Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Oddly, several years ago (1996 or 1997), I wondered aloud on this list
> > why chargers and controllers were inherently separate, and why you
> > couldn't build a device that was both, so you could use the expensive
> > silicon switches for two purposes. It was mocked and shot down. Then
> > a couple of years later, there was a post about someone (or company)
> > doing just that. Much applause and support for such an innovative
> > idea. I don't think the product ever actually manifested itself into
> > something you could actually buy.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To all,
I signed up for this list a few months ago for the primary purpose of helping
a friend's widow dispose of material he left behind, including a large lot of
NiFe batteries. Old Harold had used some of them for his photovoltaic array.
These are Eagle Picher, 200 Ahr, 6 volt batteries, from the pilot production
run for the Chrysler TE vans. These were never in a vehicle, just used in lab
testing at a university, and Harold's PV. They are 13 years old, stored inside
and in good physical condidtion. NiFe batteries are reported to have a life of
30 yrs. Longer in some cases. The original Edison cell.
She sold 30 or so to a guy with a TE van. 10 to 20 to the guy who bought the
PV panels. She has 19 left. She has plans to move out of state at end of
month. Wants to sell the rest. Had been getting $50 each. Will take $35 or
possible best offer. These are located in NW Ohio.
Of course, these use KOH, not acid. Dims are 7 x 10.25 x 9.75 tall (in
inches). Weight is 42 dry, 54 wet, in pounds, these are probabaly somewhere
inbetween. Nickel iron capacity held fairly constant as these were rated for
209 amp hours at 40 amps and 195 amp hours at 200 amps. Internal resistance is
not given, but would be higher than a similar sized PbAcid battery. These
appear in good shape, but not tested and no guaranty. If there was a guaranty,
they'd be $200 each. No complaints from buyers so far.
She also has lots of misc wire, meters, and stuff. A 2 to 3 kilowatt Trace
inverter, 24 volt DC to 110 volt AC. A charge controller.
If interested in NiFe batteries, contact me.
Jeff Major
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1ยข/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, October 20, 2006 9:15 am, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Since my DCP days, I have staid out of the controller market. Do I hear a
> Pleade from the list to Get something out and Available??
> Most of you know I still have a large chip on my shoulder about doing
> controllers again. I want to.. But should I???
Yes, and you should really innovate the market. Don't just make a "Zilla
clone". I think you're in a great position to make a fantastic
"all-in-one" solution. I'm imagining a box with "Battery terminals go
here" and "Motor terminals go here" with virtually no other connections
(other than control signals) required to make a running car. In other
words, a single box (or interconnected boxes) that do all of the
following:
- Charger with BMS control. Built or programmable charging profiles for
AGM, Gel, Flooded, NiCd, NiMh, LiPoly, etc.
- Contactor
- Circuit breaker with remote disconnect hardware.
- Controller
- Motor side and battery side fuse "slots" (i.e. add fuse of your liking)
- Outputs for battery and motor volts & amps gauges. (no external shunts
needed).
- Fully isolated DC/DC converter.
- Programmable Controller driver. Both Hall-effect and 0-5k pot inputs.
Motor RPM input and output. Other "dash light" outputs at 12V like "Low
Battery", "Stall", "Overheat", "Charging", etc.
Such a box would vastly lower the amount of knowledge needed to build a
"from scratch" DC-based car. I know this idea is going to get shot down
as "impractical" but if you think about whats needed to build an EV, and
how we're all using the same components, it makes sense to just integrate
them all together, especially if the high-power elements can be combined
for charging & Controlling in one unit.
Knowing what I know now, I'd be willing to pay upwards of $5k for such a
box, since I've spent far more than that on all the things listed in that
feature chart...
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich - Controller Requirements
I'd like a simple switch (dash mount) that enables econo mode (peak amp
limit) verses performance mode. Call this the teenager or valet switch, but it
enables me to drive for range or performance.
If you are already implementing tachometer like rpm measurement for rev
limit, how about an output for an optional tach gauge?
Extra bonus points for regen, reverse (direct drive, no trans), and
series/parallel ability. All of these features should be extra cost "options"
that
enable me to customize the base controller.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
In a message dated 10/20/2006 11:13:17 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Keep in mind I need $2000... mark up is going to be needed.
I am not pricing this product to be cheap, I am pricing it to be worth my
time to Jump back into Controller Hell, and maybe to Get Otmar out of
retirement.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone mentioned highway train idea and it reminded me of a couple ideas
I had recently.
It seems to me that there are two basic ways to extend EV range, either
increase energy storage or reduce power requirements.
If you could remove the aerodynamic drag, then you couyld travel at 70 mph
using the same energy it would normally take to go 15-20 mph, you've just
quadrupled your range.
All of these ideas involve using a large vehicle that makes continuous
trips from one area to another, or runs in loops around the ring roads you
find around most big cities.
My first idea on this was to have something like a big semi pulling an
empty shell of a trailer with no bottom. Drive up inside and voila, no
virtually aerodynamic drag. Of course this creats the problem of how to
handle numerous vehicles inside the shell as well as how to avoid
accidents if the big rig has to slow suddenly.
My idea to solve this was to have a robotic docking system on the big rig.
You'd drive up beside it and send a signal indicating that you wanted to
board. If there is room, a door would open in the side of the rig and an
arm would extend and dock with the front of your vehicle. At this point
it would take over control of your vehicle and pull it inside. Now your
brakes would be tied to the main vehicle's brakes and your motor linked to
the main vehicle's control.
The advantage of leaving your vehicles wheels on the road include:
1) improved braking, no matter how many vehicles are on board, there will
always be enough braking power and surface contact.
2) your vehicle can contribute slightly to drive power, this menas that no
matter how many vehicles are docked, the fuel requirements for the main
rig remain the same.
Since the big rig never needs to leave the freeway, it could pull three or
four (or possibly more) docking trailers. When it does need to get off
for maintenance, etc. it can just pull over to the side and they can have
other vehicles come out and take some of the trailers.
You might even be able to have some kind of pusher vehicle that
adds/removes empty trailers to the back of the 'train'. This way you can
change the number of trailers to match expected traffic requirements.
Heck you might even be able to design it so that the "trailers" have a
limited self-powered range, then just add a pilot to drive them on.off the
back of the train.
The big advantage of this idea is that, other than creating the docking
trailers, it requires no change in infrastruture.
The expense of creating and maintaining the big rigs could be paid by
charging a fee for use.
The other idea I had was similar except it involved an electric (or
deisel) train that ran beside the freeway. However, this would require a
hugely expensive change in infrastructure. Not likely to happen.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a subtle but important difference this time. Before, the talk was
making controllers into chargers. This time, it is asking Rich if he can make a
charger into a controller and still do the charging function.
A charger, in some ways, has a harder life than a controller. A controller has
the best imaginable (well, almost) power source. DC from batteries, no
significant sudden outside loads, no kilovolt power surges from lightning
strikes. A charger has to robustly handle events like that, plus rectify AC to
DC, plus amplify the voltage in some cases.
So I think the angst before was warning people you could easily fry an
expensive controller if you hooked it up to the AC power source and tried to
use it as a charger. Using a robust charger as the starting point for a
controller changes the equation.
----- Original Message ----
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 12:11:07 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
David Dymaxion wrote:
> I'd pay zilla prices for zilla-equivalent performance.
> Any hope you could get your controller to do double duty as a charger?
> That would save me $$, save weight, and save space, and let you charge more
> $$.
Oddly, several years ago (1996 or 1997), I wondered aloud on this list
why chargers and controllers were inherently separate, and why you
couldn't build a device that was both, so you could use the expensive
silicon switches for two purposes. It was mocked and shot down. Then
a couple of years later, there was a post about someone (or company)
doing just that. Much applause and support for such an innovative
idea. I don't think the product ever actually manifested itself into
something you could actually buy. ...
Now, a battery charger manufacturer and EV enthusiast is talking about
adapting a high power charger to act as a high-power controller, and Mr
Dymaxion suggested that perhaps it could be both(!) ...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's the group URL.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/messages
Look up Tim Humphrey when you get there.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
> How do I see the BB600 group? what is its URL and method of
enrollment. I
> am interested in maybe purchasing about 300 of these cells myself. Where
> can I get them new and cheap? Is there a repository of knowledge base on
> this cell somewhere? Thanks
> JJ
>
> > I am on that BB600 group. Here are my Nicad experiences.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Don wrote;
> >> The above statement is from below. I would not recommend the
> >> BB600 battery
> >> to anyone. I have been on the BB600 group for about a year
> >> and monitoring the
> >> efforts to use the BB600 batteries. I was considering them
> >> myself until
> >> reading all the posts about the endless list of problems.
> >> Hundreds of
> >> interconnects,
> >
> > The interconnects are alot of work to assemble. Using a cordless drill
> > set at low torque speeds up the assembly. Then going over each nut
with
> > a torque wrench is important. The good news is that if a cell goes bad
> > you can replace it with another $10 cell. This happened to me! If it
> > were a lead acid battery, the whole battery gets junked and you don't
> > know if it's a bad cell or what the failure was. Cells go for about
> > $4.50, but their shipping, as with any other battery, brings the price
> > up to $9-$10 each.
> >
> >
> >>manually watering hundreds of small single cells
> >
> > True. But I've had sealed lead acid batterys that I had to water
> > totalling 624 cells! Now that my Nicad pack is only 252 cells, I
> > checked the entire pack in 3 hours. It takes more time to R & R
the caps
> > than it does to water the cells by a mile. It takes about 5-10 seconds
> > to add water to a cell to the exact level required by the
> > manual. There are no signs of venting in the battery box. That may
imply
> > that watering is a very rare requirement for my truck.
> >
> >>and keeping them in balance.
> >
> > This is the great part. Even a lead acid battery pack needs to
remain in
> > balance. But you cannot check each cell or balance each cell! But with
> > these nicads you can. Yes it's more work but I consider it a
> > benefit that I can test each cell individually. The milspec manual
> > states that for balancing, take each nicad to 0.0 volts and hold them
> > there for 24hrs. Then recharge. Instant balancing. Would have to do it
> > slowly to avoid cell reversal by putting a light bulb across the
> > entire pack.
> >
> >>If this is not enough to discourage you the never
> >> ending list of other
> >> problems should. They are around 35 Ah and 1.2 volts a 120
> >> volt pack would
> >> take 100 batteries and only be 34 Ah. 8000 dollars of these
> >> would get you 800 or
> >> so if you include shipping. 800 I believe would be around
> >> 500 more than any
> >> one else has tried and only a few are near the 300 number.
> >
> > To get any life out of a lead pack the rule of thumb is do not go
> > lower than 50% dod. That's almost the same ah's available as my nicads
> > now provide over the old lead acid pack! Then don't forget that a lead
> > acid packs has a huge decrease in AH's avaialble when they get cold in
> > the winter. The Nicads winter drop is listed a small. I'll know
more as
> > "winter" settles in here in California.
> >
> > Remember that with lead acid packs, you still have cells in each
> > battery, that you *CANNOT* access for testing. You can get more AH's
> > from a lead acid pack. But the weight penalty is huge! My truck is now
> > 1000 lbs lighter and it's efficiency is greatly increased not to
> > mention that acceleration, handling and the ride is vastly improved.
> >
> > There are two trucks with AC systems testing these Nicads as we speak.
> > The fact that they pull much less current than a DC system may
make the
> > nicads a better match for the vehicle. Info on these trucks is posted
> > sometimes here but mostly in the BB600 group.
> >
> > Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A battery charger is specific to the type of batteries being charged,
and certainly a motor controller for AC or DC motors are different too.
One might even consider having the battery charger broken down into
the AC->DC power supply, and then having the charge controller seperate.
So Rich can sell a robust power supply that can accepts variable inputs
and outputs clean DC power at various output voltages.
A charge controller can use that as input to charge different types of
batteries.
My view is that combining functions in a single more expensive (yet more
value) product in a hobby market is not the best approach, since it
requires more upfront initial cost and requires a complete system buy-in.
Jack
David Dymaxion wrote:
There is a subtle but important difference this time. Before, the talk was
making controllers into chargers. This time, it is asking Rich if he can make a
charger into a controller and still do the charging function.
A charger, in some ways, has a harder life than a controller. A controller has
the best imaginable (well, almost) power source. DC from batteries, no
significant sudden outside loads, no kilovolt power surges from lightning
strikes. A charger has to robustly handle events like that, plus rectify AC to
DC, plus amplify the voltage in some cases.
So I think the angst before was warning people you could easily fry an
expensive controller if you hooked it up to the AC power source and tried to
use it as a charger. Using a robust charger as the starting point for a
controller changes the equation.
----- Original Message ----
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 12:11:07 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
David Dymaxion wrote:
I'd pay zilla prices for zilla-equivalent performance.
Any hope you could get your controller to do double duty as a charger?
That would save me $$, save weight, and save space, and let you charge more $$.
Oddly, several years ago (1996 or 1997), I wondered aloud on this list
why chargers and controllers were inherently separate, and why you
couldn't build a device that was both, so you could use the expensive
silicon switches for two purposes. It was mocked and shot down. Then
a couple of years later, there was a post about someone (or company)
doing just that. Much applause and support for such an innovative
idea. I don't think the product ever actually manifested itself into
something you could actually buy. ...
Now, a battery charger manufacturer and EV enthusiast is talking about
adapting a high power charger to act as a high-power controller, and Mr
Dymaxion suggested that perhaps it could be both(!) ...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/
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<*> To change settings online go to:
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<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has 4 motors for 4 wheels so it does have 4wheel drive. The thing behind the
seats may
be 'cooling fans', but are likely 'vents'. The batteries may or may not need
'venting'.
When electric motors and batteries get hot, they wear out faster. It may
actually need
more batteries.
Here is a cutaway that shows the internals and suspension.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/2006/2006-Audi-R-Zero-Concept-Internal-View-1280x960.htm
Steve -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: Audi R-Zero Electric Supercar
> Just a concept design from some design student who doesn't know a
> thing about engineering. That giant void in the middle of the car for
> cooling is the most silly thing I've ever seen.
> On 10/19/06, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Heard anything about this car up till now?
> > http://www.hugg.com/story/Audi-RZero-Electric-Supercar/
> > http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Audi+R-Zero+Electric+Supercar
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it would be less cost. Say $3k for combined charger/controller, rather
than $4k for buying them separately.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:23:36 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
...My view is that combining functions in a single more expensive (yet more
value) product in a hobby market is not the best approach, since it
requires more upfront initial cost and requires a complete system buy-in.
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I recently purchased some drive sprockets and it was cheaper to buy them
by the bunch than idividually.
Anyway I have 6 spare sprockets if anyone is interested. I'll sell them
for $10 each plus shipping.
These fit perfectly on the 1.5 hp lawn mower motors mentioned recently on
the list as well as most (all?) 6.7" ADC motors, and I'm sure many more.
Specs are:
#40 chain
14 Teeth
7/8" bore with looks like 1/8" key slot and set screw
These are Martin sprockets made in the USA
If you're ineterested, please contact me off list.
Cheers, Pete.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$1200 OBO
see EV Tradin Post:
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=1243
Rivk Barnes
Aloha, OR
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, sorry, should read 3/16" keyway, not 1/8"
> Hi folks,
>
> I recently purchased some drive sprockets and it was cheaper to buy them
> by the bunch than idividually.
>
> Anyway I have 6 spare sprockets if anyone is interested. I'll sell them
> for $10 each plus shipping.
>
> These fit perfectly on the 1.5 hp lawn mower motors mentioned recently on
> the list as well as most (all?) 6.7" ADC motors, and I'm sure many more.
>
> Specs are:
> #40 chain
> 14 Teeth
> 7/8" bore with looks like 1/8" key slot and set screw
> These are Martin sprockets made in the USA
>
> If you're ineterested, please contact me off list.
>
> Cheers, Pete.
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is what I said, more expensive product, but more value.
$3k is more than $2k for a controller or $2k for charger, but cheaper
for both -- more value. But I can buy a controller now, and use bad-boy
until I get more money later, or use a $2k charger and a contactor
controller now and upgrade later. I hope that is clear.
Jack
David Dymaxion wrote:
I think it would be less cost. Say $3k for combined charger/controller, rather
than $4k for buying them separately.
----- Original Message ----
From: Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 1:23:36 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
...My view is that combining functions in a single more expensive (yet more
value) product in a hobby market is not the best approach, since it
requires more upfront initial cost and requires a complete system buy-in.
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What would I like in a controller?
AC
Three phase
Liquid cooled
Enough juice to beat a Zilla
Competitive weight
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: October 20, 2006 9:15 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re:EV controllers? the 4th option...
OK listers...
What do we need in the way of Controllers and what would you folks pay for a
new design?
The specs list something like this:
96 to 450 volts. DC
550 to 1100 amps IGBT based.
Precahrge and contactor control.
Battery current and Motor current adjustable...With a 25 turn pot.. No
programming head or computer needed.
AIR COOLED! The heat sink from a PFC50 comes to mind, It's about %40 better
than the old Raptor Wakefield heat sink.
Of course water cooling is doable...for a price. But lets not go there right
yet.
High speed Real time Rev limter. Digi pot or Dip switch selectable RPMs.
PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound sensors
needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
Case size the 500 in a PFC30 case and Bigger one.. in a maybe a PFC50 case
But that's way too big.
Fine I will design a case that works the best.
This I think would cover 90% of the Demand.
Cost.. Around $2000. With enough over head to make our distributors happy.
Keep in mind I need $2000... mark up is going to be needed.
I am not pricing this product to be cheap, I am pricing it to be worth my
time to Jump back into Controller Hell, and maybe to Get Otmar out of
retirement.
Curtii are cheap, and will stay that way if you can get them to let you
order less than 50 Units at a time. BIG black mark for them on that front.
Otmar.. Hey dude I will come down there and work for you for free if it gets
Zk2s out the door faster.
I doubt that is going to happen... But that's how much respect I have for
His Gear and as a friend.
All this I don't want to do ... Otmar... Man where are you??? The EV world
is starving for controllers...
Vacumes get filled...
I have my own products to try to keep shipping on time...I can't... But I
can't let this Whole market die on the vine because of a lack of decent
controllers.
With a demand for 100s of Curtis and 1000 amp class controllers.. I can do
this, and pretty fast.
This whole product is the basic Guts to the 75K monster charger. Sans the
400 lbs transformer and water cooled rectifier Stack.
I lit if up again last night... it's getting chilly up here in Seattle.. and
40 lbs of Nichrome heat the shop rather nicely.
This stack of IGBT has moves soemthing like 5 Mega watt hours doing spave
heating chores.. so WE do have some real test time on the concept.
Since my DCP days, I have staid out of the controller market. Do I hear a
Pleade from the list to Get something out and Available??
Most of you know I still have a large chip on my shoulder about doing
controllers again.
I want to.. But should I???
Sincerley
Rich Rudman
aka Madman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:00 PM
Subject: RE: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
> Phil Marino wrote:
>
> > >For a relatively small price increase over a Curtis you
> > >get a huge jump in features, making it a better value.
> >
> > The best price I've been able to find online for each (1221C
> > and Z 1K) are $1025 and $1975 respectively. That's close to
> > twice the price
>
> In all fairness, the 1221 is less than half the controller (400A vs
> 1000A), for more than half the price. I think the price comment is
> generally understood to refer to the difference between the two closest
> models, which are the 1231 and Z1K. The 1231 sells for $1425 vs the
> Z1K's $1975, which is less than 40% difference.
>
> > In addition, the Zilla requires a water-cooling pump and
> > radiator - likely more costly that the sheet of aluminum
> > that serves as a Curtis heatsink.
>
> A sheet of aluminum is not a heatsink. If you would use a flat plate to
> cool your Curtis, you would likely run the Zilla without plumbing the
> cooling system. ;^>
>
> I suspect the cost for the proper Curtis heatsink is remarkably similar
> to the cost of the water pump for the Zilla. I also expect that a rad
> is unnecessary in most cases and that simply circulating coolant through
> the controller from a tank is sufficient.
>
> > Please don't flame me as a Zilla basher. I'm sure the Zilla
> > is more than worth the difference, and you certainly get
> > MANY more features for your money. But these features are
> > not essential for a useful, practical EV.
>
> Not at all, you make good points. There are many people whose
> applications are not so demanding as to preclude the use of a Curtis.
> If you don't need to go over 120-144V, and have a light vehicle (don't
> need more than 500-550A *peak*), then a Curtis may do you fine. The
> Curtis will not deliver its full current once it heats up a bit, and
> will only deliver it for 2min when it starts off cold, but if your
> commute is relatively flat, etc. this may not matter.
>
> The superior cooling of the Zilla means that it is likely to deliver
> nearer to its full current whenever called upon to do so, and since its
> full current is at least 2x that of the biggest Curtis, even if you ran
> it without plumbing the cooling system you'd probably find that it
> resulted in a more powerful vehicle than the Curtis since it has to
> derate to less than half its max output before it drops to the *best* a
> Curtis will do when cold.
>
> The big feature that the Zilla (and the DCPs, when they were available)
> offer is rev limiting. I don't think the value of this feature on a DC
> car that retains the clutch should be underestimated. There is simply
> too much opportunity for someone to try to drive the car like an ICE and
> blow the motor before they figure out that you simply can't hear how
> fast its spinning, or for someone who knows to simply have a bad day and
> miss a shift, etc. Adding the cost of an external rev limiter (~$220)
> to the cost of the Curtis (1231), narrows the price gap to just $330 or
> 20% more for the 'Zilla than the Curtis.
>
> A 20% premium for at least 2x the current (2x the low end torque), plus
> all those other features that you may or may not need (series/parallel,
> reverse, etc) doesn't sound bad at all.
>
> The biggest strike against the Zilla right now is the lead time. If I
> were shopping for a controller right now, I'm afraid that unless I
> absolutely had to have a pack voltage over 144V, I'd be buying a 1231
> and external rev-limiter so I could get on the road, and would be
> looking to upgrade to a 'Z1K and sell off the Curtis once Otmar gets
> caught up with orders.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the risk of seeming to be insufficiently pie-in-the-sky for this list, I
think that a major need (want?) could be filled with a basic, 144 - 156 volt DC
controller that could put out 600 to 800 amps when needed, wouldn't fry
itself, and responded to basic dumb commands (like go faster, go slower, turn
off.) There's a place for all ends of the market, as has been discussed in
other contexts, but I think that the best way to get the most people on the
road in EVs would be to put out something that was simply a slightly stronger
and more reliable Curtis-equivalent. Not sexy, nothing for all the digit heads
to get all "ooh! ooh!, and you could have the tailliights talk to the door
locks! over - just a basic piece of go-kinda-fast when you want to machinery.
Oh, and for under $1000 - did I mention that?
---------------------------------
Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small
Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What happens to a NiCad cell when it is reversed? I hear this is bad so
does it kill the cell dead to the point it is useless?
Thanks,
Nate
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting timing on this. I was just commenting to several other
EVers about the gap between the Curtis and Zilla, and the
potentially limited availability of either one. If either Curtis or
Otmar decide to follow other priorities, we could soon find ourselves
in a serious pinch.
Assuming Curtis and Otmar continue to produce controllers, it seems
to me what is needed is something in between. No need to cover what
is already covered, but something that makes a good upgrade from a
Curtis and a good lead up to the Zillas.
How about two voltage ranges? Say 168 Volt Max on the low, and 240
Volts max on the high.
Motor current 800-1200 Amps.
Ability to select an economy or valet mode to reduce max battery
current to a particular (adjustable) level.
Ability to set max motor voltage to avoid arcing.
Input for some sort of motor speed sensor with auto cutback/shut off
to prevent over speeding.
Adjustable low voltage cutback for a turtle mode to protect the batteries.
Drivers for indicator lamps for controller overheat, inable,
econ/valet mode, wide open throttle, and low voltage cutback.
Air cooled.
A cover for the power terminals. How many EVs have protective covers
on the battery posts and yet the controller terminals a wide open to
the fingers of the curious?
The idea of combining the charger and the controller has merit, but
how about building the DC/DC into the controller?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hear HEar HEAR!!!
So would I ...
about 1200 amps a phase.
Back to DC...Ho humm..
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 3:27 PM
Subject: RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> What would I like in a controller?
>
> AC
> Three phase
> Liquid cooled
> Enough juice to beat a Zilla
> Competitive weight
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: October 20, 2006 9:15 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re:EV controllers? the 4th option...
>
> OK listers...
>
> What do we need in the way of Controllers and what would you folks pay for
a
> new design?
>
> The specs list something like this:
>
> 96 to 450 volts. DC
> 550 to 1100 amps IGBT based.
>
> Precahrge and contactor control.
>
> Battery current and Motor current adjustable...With a 25 turn pot.. No
> programming head or computer needed.
>
> AIR COOLED! The heat sink from a PFC50 comes to mind, It's about %40
better
> than the old Raptor Wakefield heat sink.
> Of course water cooling is doable...for a price. But lets not go there
right
> yet.
>
> High speed Real time Rev limter. Digi pot or Dip switch selectable RPMs.
>
> PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound sensors
> needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
>
> Case size the 500 in a PFC30 case and Bigger one.. in a maybe a PFC50 case
> But that's way too big.
> Fine I will design a case that works the best.
>
> This I think would cover 90% of the Demand.
>
> Cost.. Around $2000. With enough over head to make our distributors happy.
> Keep in mind I need $2000... mark up is going to be needed.
> I am not pricing this product to be cheap, I am pricing it to be worth my
> time to Jump back into Controller Hell, and maybe to Get Otmar out of
> retirement.
> Curtii are cheap, and will stay that way if you can get them to let you
> order less than 50 Units at a time. BIG black mark for them on that
front.
>
> Otmar.. Hey dude I will come down there and work for you for free if it
gets
> Zk2s out the door faster.
> I doubt that is going to happen... But that's how much respect I have for
> His Gear and as a friend.
>
> All this I don't want to do ... Otmar... Man where are you??? The EV world
> is starving for controllers...
> Vacumes get filled...
> I have my own products to try to keep shipping on time...I can't... But I
> can't let this Whole market die on the vine because of a lack of decent
> controllers.
>
> With a demand for 100s of Curtis and 1000 amp class controllers.. I can do
> this, and pretty fast.
> This whole product is the basic Guts to the 75K monster charger. Sans the
> 400 lbs transformer and water cooled rectifier Stack.
> I lit if up again last night... it's getting chilly up here in Seattle..
and
> 40 lbs of Nichrome heat the shop rather nicely.
> This stack of IGBT has moves soemthing like 5 Mega watt hours doing spave
> heating chores.. so WE do have some real test time on the concept.
>
>
> Since my DCP days, I have staid out of the controller market. Do I hear a
> Pleade from the list to Get something out and Available??
> Most of you know I still have a large chip on my shoulder about doing
> controllers again.
> I want to.. But should I???
>
> Sincerley
>
> Rich Rudman
> aka Madman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 19, 2006 11:00 PM
> Subject: RE: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
>
>
> > Phil Marino wrote:
> >
> > > >For a relatively small price increase over a Curtis you
> > > >get a huge jump in features, making it a better value.
> > >
> > > The best price I've been able to find online for each (1221C
> > > and Z 1K) are $1025 and $1975 respectively. That's close to
> > > twice the price
> >
> > In all fairness, the 1221 is less than half the controller (400A vs
> > 1000A), for more than half the price. I think the price comment is
> > generally understood to refer to the difference between the two closest
> > models, which are the 1231 and Z1K. The 1231 sells for $1425 vs the
> > Z1K's $1975, which is less than 40% difference.
> >
> > > In addition, the Zilla requires a water-cooling pump and
> > > radiator - likely more costly that the sheet of aluminum
> > > that serves as a Curtis heatsink.
> >
> > A sheet of aluminum is not a heatsink. If you would use a flat plate to
> > cool your Curtis, you would likely run the Zilla without plumbing the
> > cooling system. ;^>
> >
> > I suspect the cost for the proper Curtis heatsink is remarkably similar
> > to the cost of the water pump for the Zilla. I also expect that a rad
> > is unnecessary in most cases and that simply circulating coolant through
> > the controller from a tank is sufficient.
> >
> > > Please don't flame me as a Zilla basher. I'm sure the Zilla
> > > is more than worth the difference, and you certainly get
> > > MANY more features for your money. But these features are
> > > not essential for a useful, practical EV.
> >
> > Not at all, you make good points. There are many people whose
> > applications are not so demanding as to preclude the use of a Curtis.
> > If you don't need to go over 120-144V, and have a light vehicle (don't
> > need more than 500-550A *peak*), then a Curtis may do you fine. The
> > Curtis will not deliver its full current once it heats up a bit, and
> > will only deliver it for 2min when it starts off cold, but if your
> > commute is relatively flat, etc. this may not matter.
> >
> > The superior cooling of the Zilla means that it is likely to deliver
> > nearer to its full current whenever called upon to do so, and since its
> > full current is at least 2x that of the biggest Curtis, even if you ran
> > it without plumbing the cooling system you'd probably find that it
> > resulted in a more powerful vehicle than the Curtis since it has to
> > derate to less than half its max output before it drops to the *best* a
> > Curtis will do when cold.
> >
> > The big feature that the Zilla (and the DCPs, when they were available)
> > offer is rev limiting. I don't think the value of this feature on a DC
> > car that retains the clutch should be underestimated. There is simply
> > too much opportunity for someone to try to drive the car like an ICE and
> > blow the motor before they figure out that you simply can't hear how
> > fast its spinning, or for someone who knows to simply have a bad day and
> > miss a shift, etc. Adding the cost of an external rev limiter (~$220)
> > to the cost of the Curtis (1231), narrows the price gap to just $330 or
> > 20% more for the 'Zilla than the Curtis.
> >
> > A 20% premium for at least 2x the current (2x the low end torque), plus
> > all those other features that you may or may not need (series/parallel,
> > reverse, etc) doesn't sound bad at all.
> >
> > The biggest strike against the Zilla right now is the lead time. If I
> > were shopping for a controller right now, I'm afraid that unless I
> > absolutely had to have a pack voltage over 144V, I'd be buying a 1231
> > and external rev-limiter so I could get on the road, and would be
> > looking to upgrade to a 'Z1K and sell off the Curtis once Otmar gets
> > caught up with orders.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
