EV Digest 6059
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: open controller designs?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: open controller designs?
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery Chargers
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery Chargers
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Not getting any evdl posts
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) was the 4th option/ Solar car corp ...
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Not getting any evdl posts
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: open controller designs?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Not getting any evdl posts
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) how to stop getting emails
by pk sharma <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: how to stop getting emails
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Current multiplication, was: EV controllers? Practical parame
ters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Not getting any evdl posts
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV controllers? the 5th option...
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: dc-dc working
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: dc-dc working
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Chargers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Cursit controllers revisited (squealing); precharge 'circuit' again
(please)
by "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: dc-dc working
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James and all,
From a production standpoint those modules look fine, but their
switching times are rather slow for silent operation. The module will
spend 1.4us (tr+tf+trr) every cycle dissipating an average of 31.2kW at
full load.[1] At 1kHz, that's only 44W, but 790W at 18kHz (mostly
inaudible). Best case, that's an additional 59*C temperature increase
[2] and the modules only rated for 1100W for each collector which is
likely an exaggeration. Seems too much for me. I think they'd be okay
for an AC drive which uses stepping at higher speeds and currents and
high-frequency sine-wave modulation only at lower speeds and currents.
Cory Cross
[1] During switching losses average Vbat * Imotor / 2, or 156V battery *
400A motor / 2 = 31.2kW
[2] Quick look at datasheet shows a thermal resistance of .11*C/W for
each IGBT to case, and .02*C/W for case to heatsink. (Diode thermal
resistance is twice that? ignoring for now) Assuming independence, the
dissipation in parallel is .055*C/W + .02*C/W = .075*C/W. Multiply that
by 790W: 59.25*C
James Massey wrote:
> G'day Arthur, and All
>
> At 01:15 PM 23/10/06 -0400, you wrote:
>
>> I'll seriously build a DC controller if someone sends me a module...
>>
>> http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/SkuPage.asp?SKU=341860&PNO=&PNM=
>>
>> You get 800 motor amps peak, for up to one-quarter of the voltage
>> output. Full output is 400 amps (hey, that's up to 60kW...how long do
>> your batteries last then anyway?). The highest battery voltage is 156;
>> but slightly more volts are negotiable when charging.
>
>
> Well now, that's an interesting module - looks as though you could use
> the freewheel diode of the "upper" transistor as the motor freewheel
> diode, and the transistor of the lower one. That is the type of module
> and philosophy I was thinking of when I referred to "much more
> expensive module" in the kit-form design I posted earlier.
>
> I think I only have 250A modules in my collecion, I'll have a look
> what I've got.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your numbers are actually conservative, I think. My guess is that the
loss would be at least 900W at full load (400A, 156V). This morning I
saw someone give a presentation about using the Mitsubishi loss
estimation program. I don't know where he found it, but it exists. It
might help give more accurate results. (Mitsubishi builds the Powerex
modules.)
I know. Modules are horrible in that way. They need excellent cooling.
That's why I would never use one in my own car (or until they come out
with better ones). But, they're easy, and they actually work fairly
well from what I've seen at work.
However, what I meant by full load was 100% duty cycle. This is just
like a contactor being on. No switching loss in this case. I haven't
driven a DC EV much, so I don't know how often you could use that. As
long as you aren't racing, though, 15kW average should be plenty to
drive around on. The 800A rating would be for only a few seconds,
before the controller would have to cut out. Do note that the modules
(and heatsink) have a significant thermal mass.
My only DC EV experience was driving around on 24V at no more than 500A
in my very first homebuilt controller. The car did just fine, and I got
up to about 25MPH in third gear (only 250A when not accelerating). If
I'd had a 156V pack, that would've been only 38A!
Besides, if you want performance, get a Zilla. Or a Ph.D. degree in my
lab! A few days ago I remarked on the built-in space heater on the
800kW motor that's just kind of sitting in the room...
I'm looking right now for a more efficient solution to the open-source
idea. That module was merely an example (good luck finding one anyway,
because of the lead time).
- Arthur
On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 22:38 -0400, Cory Cross wrote:
> Hi James and all,
>
> From a production standpoint those modules look fine, but their
> switching times are rather slow for silent operation. The module will
> spend 1.4us (tr+tf+trr) every cycle dissipating an average of 31.2kW at
> full load.[1] At 1kHz, that's only 44W, but 790W at 18kHz (mostly
> inaudible). Best case, that's an additional 59*C temperature increase
> [2] and the modules only rated for 1100W for each collector which is
> likely an exaggeration. Seems too much for me. I think they'd be okay
> for an AC drive which uses stepping at higher speeds and currents and
> high-frequency sine-wave modulation only at lower speeds and currents.
>
> Cory Cross
>
> [1] During switching losses average Vbat * Imotor / 2, or 156V battery *
> 400A motor / 2 = 31.2kW
> [2] Quick look at datasheet shows a thermal resistance of .11*C/W for
> each IGBT to case, and .02*C/W for case to heatsink. (Diode thermal
> resistance is twice that? ignoring for now) Assuming independence, the
> dissipation in parallel is .055*C/W + .02*C/W = .075*C/W. Multiply that
> by 790W: 59.25*C
>
> James Massey wrote:
>
> > G'day Arthur, and All
> >
> > At 01:15 PM 23/10/06 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >> I'll seriously build a DC controller if someone sends me a module...
> >>
> >> http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/SkuPage.asp?SKU=341860&PNO=&PNM=
> >>
> >> You get 800 motor amps peak, for up to one-quarter of the voltage
> >> output. Full output is 400 amps (hey, that's up to 60kW...how long do
> >> your batteries last then anyway?). The highest battery voltage is 156;
> >> but slightly more volts are negotiable when charging.
> >
> >
> > Well now, that's an interesting module - looks as though you could use
> > the freewheel diode of the "upper" transistor as the motor freewheel
> > diode, and the transistor of the lower one. That is the type of module
> > and philosophy I was thinking of when I referred to "much more
> > expensive module" in the kit-form design I posted earlier.
> >
> > I think I only have 250A modules in my collecion, I'll have a look
> > what I've got.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > [Technik] James
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I concur with Ronald. For a good all around charger that does what our
asking for is the Schumacher. I got the Schumacher SC-10000A a year ago. It
is a great charger. Not only does it charge the batteries properly, But it
is very portable. The battery leads are connected to the charger with an
Anderson connector. You can remove the battery cables and 110v plug, then
put them in a flip cover part of the charger. This means you have no cables
dangling on the charge when you carry it or store it. Who ever designed this
charger knew what the hell they were doing. The only small thing I didn't
like about the charger is when it gets to the end of the charging cycle and
it has dropped down to the 2amp charge mode. It's fan cycles on and off
every few seconds. Kind a gets on your nerves if your around to hear it. It
also can smell like hot electronics when in it 40amp charge mode. This was a
little unnerving at first. But I never had any problems. Its just the way
the charger works.
If the charger is connected all the time then the charger I'd use is the
Dual Pro series < http://www.dualpro.com/ >. You can get them in 1,2,3,or 4
bank charges. But they don't have any 6-volt versions. I use three of the 4
bank chargers for charging my twelve 12-volt EV batteries.
The battery minder chargers are great for long term storage of a battery. <
http://www.batteryweb.com/batteryminder.cfm > This works good on my
motorcycle over the winter.
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
What this power is I cannot say; all I know is that it exists and it becomes
available only when a man is in that state of mind in which he knows exactly
what he wants and is fully determined not to quit until he finds it. -
Alexander Graham Bell
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:00 AM
Subject: Battery Chargers
Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery charger
capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle
Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will taper off or
occasionally do an equalizing charge. Looking to safely charge individual
batteries-not the entire pack. Suggestions?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No reason you couldn't add a "history" section to your own website, with
a page about Mr. McCrea, or make a wikipedia page.
Roderick Wilde wrote:
John, I'm going to have to have a difference of opinion here with you
on the compatibility of the 9" ADC motor with the Curtis 1221B. This
particular controller was responsible for the demise of one of the
earliest EV conversion companies in existence in the last century.
Curtis refused to warranty the controllers installed by Solar Electric
in Melbourne Florida run by Steve McCrea. Steve was also famous for
the no longer available publication, "Why Wait for Detroit". Steve was
definitely one of the early pioneers but when you Google him or Solar
Car Corporation now you will get hardly anything. This is very
upsetting to me considering all the years and hard work he had put
into conversions and making EVs acceptable. Nowadays history may be
measured in seconds rather than years. We live in very sad times!.
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Whatever you get, make sure that the charge algorithms are correct for the
type of battery. I have seen chargers that treat AGM and Gel the same. The
are definitely not!
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don
Sent: October 23, 2006 8:01 AM
To: EV Discussion Group
Subject: Battery Chargers
Any idea who manufactures or where I can locate a "smart" battery charger
capable of charging individual 6 or 12 volt SLA or AGM/Gel/Deep Cycle
Batteries. When I say "smart" I mean one that will taper off or occasionally
do an equalizing charge. Looking to safely charge individual batteries-not
the entire pack. Suggestions?
Thanks
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Oct 2006 at 16:38, Matthew Milliron wrote:
> >Curtis controllers are more like Ford Escorts than BMWs. They're not high
> >performance units, but they're entirely serviceable for the average person
> >who
> >is building a practical commuter and not a sports car or dragster. They're
> >available today, and probably will be tomorrow.
>
> Hay! There is nothing wrong with Ford Escorts! <GRIN>
Darn right! That's exactly what I'm saying here. In terms of cost per
mile, Escorts are one of the most economical cars you can buy. If to you a
car is pure transportation - and that is the case for many, many people -
then this is what you want.
Curtis controllers don't have many features and they're not really suited to
high performance cars (welll, maybe if they're >extremely< light). Sure,
there are better controllers available. But Curtises are reasonably priced,
they work, they're available, and service for them is fairly easy to obtain.
Nobody should be ashamed to drive an Escort, and nobody should be ashamed to
use a Curtis in his conversion (perhaps a conversion of an Escort!).
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
Not sure whats going on now but I didn't recieve a
single EVDL post today. I know there were some by
going to the archieves. Yahoo's been slower than
normal today but I've gotten privates and test mails.
Anyway is there a way to check to see if it's Yahoo or
a glitch toward me getting it from the list??
Meanwhile I'll surf the stuff manually untill I figuer
out what the heck is going on.
Anyone else having, seeing anything like this??
It's been several days since I changed to text only so
it can't be related, being everything was working
fine.
Thanks
Jim
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
.
Roderick Wilde wrote:
John, I'm going to have to have a difference of opinion here with you on
the compatibility of the 9" ADC motor with the Curtis 1221B. This
particular controller was responsible for the demise of one of the
earliest EV conversion companies in existence in the last century. Curtis
refused to warranty the controllers installed by Solar Electric in
Melbourne Florida run by Steve McCrea.
This is where I got my first Curtis , When it blow I drove up there ( 60
miles north of me ) thinking I'd get another , now I know why it never got
fixed ... I got a zapi while waiting , it still took 6 months though . .
Steve was also famous for
the no longer available publication, "Why Wait for Detroit". Steve was
definitely one of the early pioneers but when you Google him or Solar
Car Corporation now you will get hardly anything.
I have a news paper article about him getting a grant ,,, I was there a few
times and each time there was allot of new stuff going on. Last time they
where working on a ac drive in a s 10 I believe . very nice job , I saw 2 of
them much later as the Sunday challenge , a ev rally in coco .
This is very
upsetting to me considering all the years and hard work he had put into
conversions and making EVs acceptable. Nowadays history may be measured
in seconds rather than years. We live in very sad times!.
When I think back , their was allot going on , I was just starting out and
Solar car was big , big building , lots of cars and truck , ya some how the
slate was wiped clean , now we're building , getting bigger but there is
nothing like Solar car corp in Florida now , and the Sunday challenge , ev
rally at coco , very big , lots of people from all over , that was 9 years
ago , almost forgotten now . I hadn't though about it but maybe we are
going around in circles , and just think we are going forward. .
Steve Clunn
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
your post was nr 53 today, by my count.
If your email program or service provider has an
issue so the posts cannot be delivered to you, then
you will receive all the posts 2 days later
is my experience.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Husted
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:16 PM
To: EVDL
Subject: Not getting any evdl posts
Hey all
Not sure whats going on now but I didn't recieve a
single EVDL post today. I know there were some by
going to the archieves. Yahoo's been slower than
normal today but I've gotten privates and test mails.
Anyway is there a way to check to see if it's Yahoo or
a glitch toward me getting it from the list??
Meanwhile I'll surf the stuff manually untill I figuer
out what the heck is going on.
Anyone else having, seeing anything like this??
It's been several days since I changed to text only so
it can't be related, being everything was working
fine.
Thanks
Jim
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Arthur and all,
With a series motor you wouldn't be able to leave it on 100% for
long. I just don't want anyone to be mislead; I've seen glowing reports
about these by several people -- I've read some of the module specs and
have been waiting for an opportunity to mention my piece about slow
switching.
For someone who doesn't mind a little noise, these could be used
with a pseudo-random frequency varying between 1-2 kHz and make a great,
cost-effective controller. There's better modules out there, however:
this one contains two wasted components.
Cory Cross
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
>Your numbers are actually conservative, I think. My guess is that the
>loss would be at least 900W at full load (400A, 156V). This morning I
>saw someone give a presentation about using the Mitsubishi loss
>estimation program. I don't know where he found it, but it exists. It
>might help give more accurate results. (Mitsubishi builds the Powerex
>modules.)
>
>I know. Modules are horrible in that way. They need excellent cooling.
>That's why I would never use one in my own car (or until they come out
>with better ones). But, they're easy, and they actually work fairly
>well from what I've seen at work.
>
>However, what I meant by full load was 100% duty cycle. This is just
>like a contactor being on. No switching loss in this case. I haven't
>driven a DC EV much, so I don't know how often you could use that. As
>long as you aren't racing, though, 15kW average should be plenty to
>drive around on. The 800A rating would be for only a few seconds,
>before the controller would have to cut out. Do note that the modules
>(and heatsink) have a significant thermal mass.
>
>My only DC EV experience was driving around on 24V at no more than 500A
>in my very first homebuilt controller. The car did just fine, and I got
>up to about 25MPH in third gear (only 250A when not accelerating). If
>I'd had a 156V pack, that would've been only 38A!
>
>Besides, if you want performance, get a Zilla. Or a Ph.D. degree in my
>lab! A few days ago I remarked on the built-in space heater on the
>800kW motor that's just kind of sitting in the room...
>
>I'm looking right now for a more efficient solution to the open-source
>idea. That module was merely an example (good luck finding one anyway,
>because of the lead time).
>
>- Arthur
>
>
>On Mon, 2006-10-23 at 22:38 -0400, Cory Cross wrote:
>
>
>>Hi James and all,
>>
>> From a production standpoint those modules look fine, but their
>>switching times are rather slow for silent operation. The module will
>>spend 1.4us (tr+tf+trr) every cycle dissipating an average of 31.2kW at
>>full load.[1] At 1kHz, that's only 44W, but 790W at 18kHz (mostly
>>inaudible). Best case, that's an additional 59*C temperature increase
>>[2] and the modules only rated for 1100W for each collector which is
>>likely an exaggeration. Seems too much for me. I think they'd be okay
>>for an AC drive which uses stepping at higher speeds and currents and
>>high-frequency sine-wave modulation only at lower speeds and currents.
>>
>>Cory Cross
>>
>>[1] During switching losses average Vbat * Imotor / 2, or 156V battery *
>>400A motor / 2 = 31.2kW
>>[2] Quick look at datasheet shows a thermal resistance of .11*C/W for
>>each IGBT to case, and .02*C/W for case to heatsink. (Diode thermal
>>resistance is twice that? ignoring for now) Assuming independence, the
>>dissipation in parallel is .055*C/W + .02*C/W = .075*C/W. Multiply that
>>by 790W: 59.25*C
>>
>>James Massey wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>G'day Arthur, and All
>>>
>>>At 01:15 PM 23/10/06 -0400, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'll seriously build a DC controller if someone sends me a module...
>>>>
>>>>http://catalog.rell.com/rellecom/scripts/SkuPage.asp?SKU=341860&PNO=&PNM=
>>>>
>>>>You get 800 motor amps peak, for up to one-quarter of the voltage
>>>>output. Full output is 400 amps (hey, that's up to 60kW...how long do
>>>>your batteries last then anyway?). The highest battery voltage is 156;
>>>>but slightly more volts are negotiable when charging.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Well now, that's an interesting module - looks as though you could use
>>>the freewheel diode of the "upper" transistor as the motor freewheel
>>>diode, and the transistor of the lower one. That is the type of module
>>>and philosophy I was thinking of when I referred to "much more
>>>expensive module" in the kit-form design I posted earlier.
>>>
>>>I think I only have 250A modules in my collecion, I'll have a look
>>>what I've got.
>>>
>>>Regards
>>>
>>>[Technik] James
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:15 PM 23/10/06 -0700, Jim wrote:
Hey all
Not sure whats going on now but I didn't recieve a
single EVDL post today. I know there were some by
going to the archieves.
G'day Jim, and All
I had something similar a couple of months ago, except in my case all
messages stopped, and most queries to the SJSU server (the 'host' for the
EVDL) went AWOL as well. You can post, so you're being 'hit' by something
different to what happened to me (my ISP's tech thinks that the SJSU or an
intermediate router anti-spam subscription blocked my ISP for a while). You
can check this by sending a 'query ev' message to the SJSU server
([EMAIL PROTECTED])
I'm guessing for some reason your ISP is blocking the SJSU server messages.
If the messages don't magically re-start in a couple of days, contact your
ISPs helpdesk.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
when i joined this group, i WAS fore-warned that there will be a deluge
of emails .. now i KNOW that there is a huge deluge of emails
and being unable to cope with this massive influx (they are all worth
reading and pursuing and knowing about) .. i need to know how to stop
getting emails from this group
please help
..peekay
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The complete instructions for the Electric Vehicle Email Discussion List are
at:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "pk sharma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 24, 2006 6:10 AM
Subject: how to stop getting emails
> when i joined this group, i WAS fore-warned that there will be a deluge
> of emails .. now i KNOW that there is a huge deluge of emails
>
> and being unable to cope with this massive influx (they are all worth
> reading and pursuing and knowing about) .. i need to know how to stop
> getting emails from this group
>
> please help
>
> ..peekay
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
I have yet to hear of water-cooled capacitors ;-)
Electrolytics have a water-based electrolyte, of course. It aids greatly
in conduction heat to the outside aluminum case.
Lots of big capacitors are oil-cooled. The oil acts both as electrolyte
and insulator between the plates, as well as conducting the heat to the
outside case. These cases are either bolted to a heatsink plate, or
cooled by a fan or other forced-air cooling method.
Of course, the better the capacitor, the lower its internal resistance,
and the less it needs cooling.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim,
The same thing happen to me about two months ago. I install a new operating
system and A E mail DSL by the same server and my computer defaulted back to
the original settings as it was new.
All the E-mail would come in as junk which I forgot to put in the safe list
of who I knew. If I did not know, I would transfer it to the In-box and
then deleted it then.
Also the E-mail settings defaulted to Exclusive which filters all new email
at that time. I had to reset it to a lower level, and than I would get the
E mail from the list which I would then either transfer to the Safe List or
directly to the In box.
Check you E-mail settings to see what your Junk Mail settings are at. I also
had to call my server to have them re-set there computers at there end, so I
can received all the E-mail that was block which I was normally receiving.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 11:15 PM
Subject: Not getting any evdl posts
> Hey all
>
> Not sure whats going on now but I didn't recieve a
> single EVDL post today. I know there were some by
> going to the archieves. Yahoo's been slower than
> normal today but I've gotten privates and test mails.
>
> Anyway is there a way to check to see if it's Yahoo or
> a glitch toward me getting it from the list??
>
> Meanwhile I'll surf the stuff manually untill I figuer
> out what the heck is going on.
>
> Anyone else having, seeing anything like this??
>
> It's been several days since I changed to text only so
> it can't be related, being everything was working
> fine.
> Thanks
> Jim
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I e mailed him but my e mail came back undeliverable .
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 8:19 PM
Subject: RE: EV controllers? the 5th option...
I was thinking about asking NetGain how many motors he
sold to him for resale.
And it seems he only sells a package...so I have a
controller...I was more interested in his charger...
However there's no feedback about this guy...
perhaps you could try emailing him. I tend not to
construct decent questions?
Thanks!
Michael Golub
Fairbanks
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Looks like the results of a well executed homebrew
project,
though I would have problems with supplying 24V as
he
suggests - from a tap in the pack. That guarantees
to have
your batteries unbalanced after a while.
It sounds like he did not want to add a DC/DC
converter
in his controller, so he stuck it to the person
buying his
controller.
Just my opinion after looking at it for a few
seconds,
others please jump in if you have any real
experience
with thic controller.
Did you ask him how many he already sold and how
busy
he is in repairing any?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 12:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 5th option...
does anyone know about this guys controller?
http://www.belktronix.com/dcmotorctrl.html
he wants $2k for it and a PFC charger +BMS...
I just like to get some feedback?
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> >
> >What DC'ers need is a Curtis-killer, not
something
> that tries to compete
> >with Otmar's already excellent offerings.
> >
> >
>
> Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
> Considering how lame the
> Curtis is, a 'Curtis Killer' isn't much of a
> challenge.
>
> >We need an updated Raptor 600. Forget the
> series-parallel shifting and
> >even the electric reverse; if someone is going
> direct drive or with dual
> >motors, they're probably going to want the extra
> oomph of at least a Z1K
> >anyway. Forget the 1000+ amps; if someone wants
> 1000A, they'll buy a
> >Z1K; if they want more, a Z2K.
> >
> >
>
> Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
>
> >96V to perhaps 192V is going to cover most anyone
> who
> >would have bought this controller instead of a
> Curtis or being pushed
> >into a Zilla due to choosing a pack voltage over
> 144V.
> >
> >
>
> Stop it Roger, that makes too much sense!
>
> >My essential spec/feature list for a
Curtis-Killer
> is:
> >
> >- 600 adjustable battery amps
> >
> >- handles at least the range of 96-144V; 156V is
> almost essential, and
> >up to ~200V would be even better
> >
> >- precharge/contactor control
> >
> >- basic fault detection (open/short throttle,
high
> pedal lockout)
> >
> >- rev limiter (and a tach drive output sure would
> be nice)
> >
> >- integrated heatsink (water-cooled is preferable
> >
> >- priced on par with 1231C + appropriate
heatsink.
> >
> >- contactor failure detection
> >
> >- controller failure detection & auto contactor
> dropout
> >
> >
> >
> Roger, how on earth does one come up with such a
> wonderfully thought-out
> wish list, and leave out
> 'silent operation-no Curtis squeal!'???? Or, did
you
> assume that no one
> in their right mind would ever again, design a
> road-going EV controller
> to make such an awful, irritating noise?
>
> From Mike Sandman:
>
> >I just ordered a kit from KTA using a 1231C-7701
> for my 120v system.
>
> I'm curious Mike, did they tell you up front that
> this controller will
> cause your EV's drive motor to make an irritating
> non-varying squeal
> when you take off or cruise with a light throttle?
> Did they tell you
> that this controller has no safety features? Did
> they tell you it has no
> automatic precharge, and that if you don't design
> your own, it could
> blow up when the line contactor engages and send
> your EV off at full
> throttle? Did they tell you it cannot be adjusted
> for a battery input
> current limit to protect your battery pack
> investment? My guess is no to
> all the above.
>
> If it's not too late, you could save a bundle by
> purchasing a used
> Curtis 1221B controller. It's a bit less powerful
at
> 400 amps, but it's
> silent and you could get one for maybe $300 if
> anyone has one available.
> The money saved would allow you to build a
precharge
> circuit and pocket
> at least $500 cash, too. Better still, a used
Raptor
> 600 could be found
> for maybe $800, is silent, properly cooled, has
dip
> switch programming,
> and 900 amps motor loop current.
>
> I understand having to watch one's EV budget, but
> with one as high as
> $15k the last area I would have cut costs on would
> be on the all
> important motor controller. You may have saved
> $500-$600 by stepping
> w-a-ay down to the Curtis, but you gave up a lot
of
> features that would
> have made your conversion more fun, far more
> pleasant, much smoother,
> more versatile, twice as powerful, and far safer,
> and...you gained a lot
> of negatives as described above.
>
> From Steve Powers:
>
> >When you get to more than 600 batt amps, you are
> really killing the pack.
>
>
=== message truncated ===
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Get either a slow blow ("slo-blo") fuse, or put a precharge circuit on
the DC/DC. If you use a precharge, you'll probably need an output
contactor so that the DC/DC draws minimal current after the inrush.
David Brandt wrote:
Well, I discovered something. A KLKD fuse can blow without any visible
indications. And the inrush current for an Iota 240V DC-DC will blow a 5A KLKD
fuse instantly. I had to short the fuseholder with a test clip (serving as a
fusible link) before inserting a fuse. Then removed the clip and all was well.
Any recommendations with avoiding this problem in the future? Maybe a resistor
could be added across the fuse?
David Brandt
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David Brandt wrote:
A KLKD fuse can blow without any visible indications.
This is true for most fuses.
the inrush current for an Iota 240V DC-DC will blow a 5A KLKD fuse
instantly.
The Iota is an AC-input supply, so it has huge input filter capacitors.
its peak input current is something like 20 amps, so of course it blows
a 5 amp fast-blow fuse.
Any recommendations with avoiding this problem in the future?
Maybe a resistor could be added across the fuse?
A parallel resistor won't help, but a resistor in *series* with the fuse
will. Choose it to limit the current to something below what your fuse
can stand.
PTC
The simplest cure is an "inrush current limiter". These look like a
ceramic disk capacitor. They have a high "cold" resistance, and a low
"hot" resistance. Look them up in catalogs like Mouser, Digikey, etc.
Pick one rated to carry the highest normal current your DC/DC will ever
draw (maximum load, minimum input voltage). Suppose you have a 144v
pack; so the minimum input voltage is 1.75v/cell x 72 cells = 126vdc.
Let's say your DC/DC is rated 14.4v at 30a max = 432 watts output. It's
about 80% efficient, so it draws 432w / 0.8 = 540 watts input. 540w /
126v = 4.28 amps. So pick a GE CL60 inrush limiter (Mouser 527-CL60,
$1.39), which is rated 10 ohms cold, 5 amps hot.
When you first turn it on, the limiter has high resistance (10 ohms),
and so limits the maximum inrush current to 144v/10ohms = 14.4 amps. As
it heats up, its resistance falls about 20:1. It ends up steady-state at
about 100 deg.C at 0.5 ohms.
Be warned that PTCs continuously run very hot, and will fry anything
near them. They tend to fail themselves after a while due to the
constant high temperature. They also waste power continuously -- but are
cheap and easy.
Precharge resistor
It's better to handle the surge the way we do it for controllers. Use a
resistor to precharge, and then short it out with a relay or equivalent
device. That way the resistor can be as high as you like, to limit the
inrush surge current as low as you like; but then the resistor can be
bypassed so the continuous-duty losses are essentially zero.
Here's a simple circuit (view with a fixed-width font). I assumed the
same 144vdc pack and 30amp DC/DC as above:
R1
22 ohms
10 watt
+144vdc_____/\/\______to DC/DC +Input
| |
|___/__/___|
|
R2 > K1 relay contacts C1 electrolytic, screw terminals
2.7k > DPST NO in series Sprague 36DY561F200AA2A
1 watt > (30vdc 30a each) (Mouser 75-36DY561F200AA2A, $8.90)
|____
C1 | |_
560uF +_|_ _| K1 relay coil
200vdc ___ _| Tyco T92P7A22-240 (Mouser 655-T92P7A22-240, $9.92)
| _| 240vac coil, 4355 ohms (equivalent to ~80vdc)
| |
-144vdc_|____|________to DC/DC -Input
When you apply power, R1 limits the DC/DC precharge current to about 5
amps (for a 5a KLKD fuse). After about 1 second, R2 will have charged C1
to about 80vdc, which is enough to pull in K1. K1's contacts then short
out precharge resistor R1. Now there is no voltage drop from R1, and no
power lost to heat.
These parts are actually much more robust than necessary. I picked
chassis mount parts, so you don't need a PC board. Also, this same
circuit will work to far higher voltages and currents than the example
shown -- just select R1 for the desired max inrush current, and R2 so
the steady-state voltage on K1's coil is about 80 volts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Like Don Cameron says, you have to *test* the charger yourself to know
what you're getting! All too often I find that the specs are optimistic,
exaggerations, or outright lies. Maybe it used to work they way they
claimed, but they cheapened the design and never updated the manual. Or,
it never worked that way, and they just counted on customers to be so
gullible that they'd never test it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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ok, this is really part of the "Controllers: the (n)th option" thread
(haven't looked back quite far enough to find out options 1-2-3, can only
guess). 2 main points/questions: Curtis controller squeal and 'precharge
circuit'
1. Curtis squealing:
I talked to a converter about this discussion, and asked about the
squealing phenomenon
(I guess that makes us all phenomenologists?! I always sort of liked Kant
and Hegel, I suppose), and his response was that
- mounting the controller on a non-conductive MDO or MDF board, (form of
plywood), 4 bolts,
resulted in minimal squeal (0-3 mph)
- benefits: 'tells people' the ev is moving (of course, squealing your tires
a little will do that too :-)
but maybe not best policy in a parking lot )
- 'theoretically' not supposed to make a difference, but in practice, does,
esp., better than
mounting directly to sheet metal which allows it to resonate more through
whole vehicle
At this point, the options for my ev project are to wait several months
for a $2000 or likely $2500 Otmar controller that doesn't squeal, or spend
half of it for a Curtis and get it anytime.
I'm not going for a 1000 amp-pulling dragster, would like more range, some
moderate performance, so maybe upgrade to the $1400 or so 550 Amp Curtis (or
get a rebuilt Curtis with higher amp capacity from say golf cart controller
people). Of course, with 'economy/range' batteries like 6 volt gc-ers, it
sounds like 350 amps is the most you really want to take out of them, though
a little extra oomph and being able to take it higher occasionally might be
nice ...
generally a 'what do I want out of my ev' philosophy question (and I've
never had the thrill of personally experiencing the squeal, so I am,
granted, no authority here)
Does someone like Unique Mobility or others make decent controllers, for
ev's, similar in price
and performance (of course, better would be desirable) than Curits, for ev
use? Does DC Power
still make theirs (though their 1200 amp version, apparently the
only/present version, is around $2200, according to an old kta catalog) ? I
guess, as people seem to be saying, the controller is probably where you
least want to skimp as it affects vehicle performance perhaps most directly
(aside from batteries, motor, etc.) ...
2. Precharge Circuit:
it was written: "(how often does it blow up (or similar) )"
Quite often, thank you. I have a 1231C carcass here, with the end blown
clear off after it was powered up by another EVer who didn't heed my
advice of using a precharge circuit. I know of at least 10 instances of
this, not just one or two
The advice about precharge:
We do not use the precharge resistor because it would always energize the
controller. That is fine if you are running 8 hr and 16 hrs shifts; but
most on-road EVs are only 30 -60 minutes a day. Then 23 hours of nothing.
Plus even milliamps over time will discharge the battery pack. For example,
someone goes on vacation.
So, for advice to someone encountering their first ev conversion
project, I am curious what
'circuitry' might be involved, i.e. some way to have the resistor
disconnected or something to resolve the above situation, or is the
'circuit' a simple resistor. What value or type, etc. (where do I get it,
any special way to install it, etc?) / any other advice? would also like a
little explanation
of the actual function (ok, I understand resistors) of 'precharging', for
myself and other newbies, wannabes, etc. out there ...
Also, any practical advice for not blowing up non-precharged
controllers, i.e. don't floor it, stay within current limits (don't try to
floor a 400 amp controller when you're at 350 amps or something?), etc.
Thanks for any advice,
Seth
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Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello David,
Try a Fusetron or Limitron fuse made by Bussman. These are design for
interrupting starting loads. Normally these are available from wholesale
electrical supply houses.
I would not recommend just blindly using whatever size fuse it takes to
stop it from blowing. If you get a fuse that survives the DC/DC's inrush
current, then you aren't really protecting it from damage.
The Iota is designed for AC inputs, from an ordinary 120vac outlet. It
has *barely enough* inrush protection to survive. It depends on the
normal impedance of the AC line, with all its wiring, connections,
transformers, etc.
A battery pack has an extremely low resistance, and the wiring is
usually very heavy to handle propulsion current. Thus, the inrush on DC
can easily be 10 times higher than on AC.
The extremely high peak inrush current can damage the bridge rectifiers,
filter capacitors, and other parts in the DC/DC. They don't fail
instantly, but are beaten to death over time.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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