EV Digest 6077
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: brrr cold zero F today-insulation idea
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Adapter plates s 10 fits Camarro tranny
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Adapter plates s 10 fits Camarro tranny
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Emeter wierdness
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Navitas controller, was:Re: I can build your controller
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: I can build your controller
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: I can build your controller
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Written pole motor is fascinating and an ingenius solution
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Written pole motor is fascinating and an ingenius solution
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: I can build your controller/Only if you service it
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: I can build your controller, off topic
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
For those with really Cold weather here an idea. A
Co-worker used this to insulate his ICE car for better
AC. He sprayed it above the headliner in to the window
frame- inside the door panels. Any place he could get
to. It stick to the wall. Un-sure how well is would
work for you. I've been considering it for my CRX in
progress.
www.tigerfoam.com/index.php
____________________________________________________________________________________
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
(http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awhile back I ordered a s 10 adapter from ev parts for somebody along with
the other parts . Well I got adapter plate before any thing else , and it
looks beautiful, my first though was " I'm never make another one of these "
but I say that after each one . I was over at a friends and he was stripping
out a Camorra with a v6 , I think a 96 . Had a nice tranny 5 speed and rear
sitting there and wanted $100 for all ( like I need more parts ) . I got
the tranny and flywheel home and just for the fun of it I took the hub and
placed it on the fly wheel , It fit all holes lined up oooooo. So I took the
plate and it fit the tranny .
Steve Clunn ,,,, funny what makes one happy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve and others,
You will find that the adapter plate that fits a S 10' will fit later and
early model Chevy engines either in a V-6 or V-8. It even fit a 1963 327
cu.in. engine.
There are some model years in the 80's that are different, but GM went back
to the standard pattern where any transmission will fit any engine.
What is nice about the S 10 adapter plate, is that it fully covers the
transmission bell housing where you do not have to have that lower sheet
metal additional cover.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:52 AM
Subject: Adapter plates s 10 fits Camarro tranny
> Awhile back I ordered a s 10 adapter from ev parts for somebody along with
> the other parts . Well I got adapter plate before any thing else , and it
> looks beautiful, my first though was " I'm never make another one of these
> "
> but I say that after each one . I was over at a friends and he was
> stripping
> out a Camorra with a v6 , I think a 96 . Had a nice tranny 5 speed and
> rear
> sitting there and wanted $100 for all ( like I need more parts ) . I got
> the tranny and flywheel home and just for the fun of it I took the hub and
> placed it on the fly wheel , It fit all holes lined up oooooo. So I took
> the
> plate and it fit the tranny .
> Steve Clunn ,,,, funny what makes one happy
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 28, 2006, at 11:13 PM, Mike Phillips wrote:
Speaking of Emeters. I don't remember my meter doing this before. When
the truck is off the emeter shows about +.5 or +.6 amps. So when it
sits for a while the Ah's merrily count upward. Any ideas?
Check the shunt wiring. It looks like the e-meter is seeing about 1/2
millivolt when the vehicle is off. Perhaps the wiring runs to close to
a running DC to DC converter or perhaps some connections are damp and
acting like a battery.
If this sort of thing happens only when the vehicle is on its usually
electrical noise getting on the shunt wires. Since your situation
involves erratic behavior when the truck is off both noise and an
slight battery behavior of any dissimilar metal connections come to
mind.
Best of luck,
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 28, 2006, at 3:50 PM, James Massey wrote:
Can your 90 Volt Sentra run OK on 260 amps continuous? That said, they
don't list the curve that goes from 600A down to the 260A continuous
point, so it might be OK. It certainly looks a Cursit-equivalent
controller, but designed to have greater efficiency. It is touted as a
forklift traction controller, not a road-EV controller.
Well, the Curtis 1221b is only good for 150 amps continuous. They have
worked in many EVs, though some have found the continuous limit to low
and had overheating problems.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
Sounds awesome! "...better handling..."; "...rear wheel drive...";
"...extremely fast acceleration...".
A suggestion: Probably the most successful kit car company is Factory
Five http://www.factoryfive.com. They use a single donor car for
everything (A 5.0 Mustang).
This has advantages, but the existing Sunrise already uses parts from a
wide variety of different cars. It would require too many changes to use
any single donor vehicle.
The 5.0 Mustang is a very small car; the Sunrise is a full-size sedan,
that can weight up to 3000 lbs depending on batteries. The 5.0 Mustang
also had a solid rear axle, which is incompatible with the Sunrise
design due to its central battery tunnel.
It'll be tough to find a wrecked or running Mustang II anymore, and a
custom suspension will be expensive.
Agreed. You would have trouble finding a wrecked Mustang II, though it's
possible for the scrounger on a budget. The main advantage of the
Mustang II over the 5.0 Mustang is that the parts fit better, and there
are more sources for heavy duty aftermarket parts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
The air passing through the element tends to have a certain
temperature rise. The amount depends on the voltage and airflow.
You can get temperature rises on the order of 30-60 deg.F.
John Wayland wrote:
I would disagree with Lee's max temp rise of 60 degrees...
my (144V) Datsun... Going from 38 degrees to 135 degrees is nearly
a 100 degree temperature rise.
That's because you are running a 120v element at 144v. As I said, the
temperature rise depends on *voltage* and airflow.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
If you're thinking of ramping up to production levels, have you
started a list of possible a regional dealers?
We're a long way from that! For the first several years, I'm quite sure
we will only have plans and kit car versions, sold direct.
We're following the model of the kit plane industry. The project should
progress in steps something like this:
- Step One is to offer just a set of plans. They document how we are
building the first prototype. These would be sufficient to build
the entire car from scratch, although it would take a lot of time
and effort. For instance, it has templates for the fiberglass parts,
schematics for the wiring, etc. This requires the builder to have a
very high skill level.
- Step Two is to offer certain key parts that are labor-intensive, and
so much cheaper if produced from tooling. For instance, you could buy
a molded fiberglass door skin, or a bare PC board. But it's still
a lot of labor, and takes a fairly high skill level to assemble them.
- Step Three is to offer subassemblies as kits. For example, all the
parts to build a door, or a battery charger. These can be assembled
by a reasonably talented person with above-average skills. We can
buy quantities of parts at a discount, and bundle them to save
customers money over single-piece prices.
- Step Four is to offer the various subassemblies already assembled
and tested; a complete door, with all the hinges, latches, power
window, mirror, etc. Or a complete, functioning battery charger.
Any reasonable garage mechanic or home handyman could build such
a car from these subassemblies.
- Step Five is a complete "Heathkit" level car kit, with thorough
enough instructions so almost anyone who can handle a screwdriver
and wrench could put it together.
- Step Six would be an assembled, production automobile. I doubt
we will get to this point for a very long time, as the regulatory
requirements are so severe and costly.
It will take us *years* to get through this sequence. The speed at which
we progress will depend on how many early adopters we get who are
building along with us, and so funding our progress by buying plans and
parts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale Curren wrote:
Could you please post that diagram again for us newbies?
All I did was tell Google to search for "Lee Hart EV Curtis Controller"
and the first "hit" was it:
Ev Archive for January 2002: On Tue, Jan 29 2002, Lee Hart wrote:
If I really felt inclined to do this (and had a controller I was
willing to sacrifice to the gods of experimentation :-) I would
try something like this: View with fixed width font:
___________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _______ | series
|____/_____|____________| | |_ motor
| S2 | |B+ | _|
| __|__ + | | _| field
/ S1a ___ 48v | M-|_____|
| | - | |
|__________|____________|B- | Controller
|_______|
With S2 open, and S1a and S1b closed, you have two 48v batteries in
parallel driving a 48v controller and series motor in a completely
normal fashion. The controller adjusts effective motor voltage from
0-48v.
With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
series for 96v. But the controller still only sees 48v between its B+
and B- terminals. The controller still adjusts the effective voltage at
M- from 0-48v. But since the top connection to the motor is 48v higher,
the motor sees 48-96v.
Thus you have two ranges; 0-48v, and 48-96v. Note that the controller's
current limit won't work in the 96v range. That's because even if the
controller is fully off, the motor is still connected to the upper 48v
battery through the controller's freewheel diode (between M- and B+).
Thus, you must not use the 96v range unless motor current is below the
controller's current limit.
In operation, you accelerate at 48v until the controller comes out of
current limit, release the throttle, switch to 96v, then re-apply the
throttle. If you're in the 96v range and start climbing a hill, you must
switch back to the 48v range before the motor current rises above the
controller's current limit.
Another quirk of this circuit is that the batteries are unequally
discharged in the 96v position; the upper battery always carries motor
current, while the lower one carries motor current x controller % duty
cycle. But the batteries will re-balance during the time spent in the
48v position.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
Example 1 is the CM600HA-12H... 1 IGBT and 1 antiparallel diode.
Example 2 is the CM400DU-12NFH... 2 IGBTs and 2 antiparallel diodes.
Technically, one could use Example One plus an external diode block to
build a DC-EV controller. This is good because it doesn't waste any
parts. This is bad because it probably won't work above 300V. Why?
The Vce clamping path length is too long
Part of the reason that IGBTs only come in 600v and 1200v versions is to
deal with the inevitably high transients. A 300v controller requires at
least 600v parts, because it is so hard to clamp voltage spikes.
With careful parts placement, you can still minimize the capacitor -
transistor - diode loop. The diode and transistor modules sit
side-by-side, so a big film capacitor can bolt directly between them.
The only additional length is the 1"-2" buss bar connecting the
transistor and diode.
You can also control the switching transient by going to soft switching.
But this is more subtle, and not likely to be used by a home builder.
perhaps even longer than if discretes were used.
Yes, exactly! When you try to use many small devices, you wind up with
the capacitor - transistor - diode path length being measured in feet
rather than inches!
I propose using Example Two because I can put a capacitor right across
the E2 and C1 terminals. This is good because it minimizes the length
of the high-frequency Vce clamping path. This circuit will work to
perhaps as much as 500V. People may have been suspicious of why I would
want to "waste parts" this way; I'm totally shorting out the lower side
gate drive.
I agree. This is the easy way to do it. It costs more but works better.
Otherwise you have to resort to subtle, tricky assembly techniques.
MOSFETs... are avalanche-rated.
That's nice, but a minor point. Your circuit should never depend on it.
You should never pass current through a MOSFET either. Because that
could cause it to heat up. And if it heats up too much, it'll explode.
And Zener diodes should never be used, because they could be damaged.
Oh, come on now! :-)
Transients are undesired, wasteful, and destructive. The first goal is
to minimize them in the first place. That's what all this talk about
careful wiring is for.
But you can't completely eliminate them. So the second goal is to
control *where* the stress they produce will go. Your semiconductors are
your most expensive, most heat-sensitive, and most fragile components;
so they are the *last* things you want to be absorbing your transient
energy.
Instead, you want to use resistors, capacitors, inductors, MOVs, and
zeners to absorb the transient energy. These are cheap rugged parts,
specifically built to absorb transients. They let your semiconductors
run cooler and last longer.
I'm currently attempting to build a 450V, 100kW AC controller from 75V
MOSFETs. It will be immersed in transformer oil to increase the PCB
trace's current rating (try it in water, it's neat).
Neat idea; it can work well. There are better coolants than transformer
oil, however. Its viscosity is high, so you'll need a pump and high flow
rates.
A low-viscosity liquid that has a phase change at the temperature of
interest would be a better choice. Water is excellent if you can keep it
from shorting things. Otherwise, look at freon, fluorinert, or butane.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Osmo
If you do buy from the United States you can be assured there are laws here
to protect the environment. Also we do not have prison labor workers.
Here in the United States, prison labor is specifically allowed by the
13th Amendment. Thirty states have prison labor; it's a multi-billion
dollar industry, and the pay rate for inmates is often less than a
dollar an hour.
From small manufacturers you will also find a lot of pride in the product
they make. I think this applies to many places around the world.
I would rather buy from countries other than China and every year it is
getting harder not to. At least here in the United States.
Don.
In a message dated 10/28/2006 2:05:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
David Roden kirjoitti 27.10.2006 kello 18.49:
Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think) you're
a newbie
here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and Otmar, our
I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I
really wish
you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere
else and use
them for something else.
I´m a little surprised that the List Assistant Administrator
wants to restrict the discussion to a certain geographical area. As
far as I know the list is open to all. So there are many non-
americans on this list. Should we all get our ev-parts from Rich and
Otmar?
I wonder if there are any chinese members on this list?
Osmo Sarin
Finland
Europe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they will
see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Dale Curren wrote:
Could you please post that diagram again for us newbies?
All I did was tell Google to search for "Lee Hart EV Curtis Controller"
and the first "hit" was it:
Ev Archive for January 2002: On Tue, Jan 29 2002, Lee Hart wrote:
If I really felt inclined to do this (and had a controller I was
willing to sacrifice to the gods of experimentation :-) I would
try something like this: View with fixed width font:
___________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _______ | series
|____/_____|____________| | |_ motor
| S2 | |B+ | _|
| __|__ + | | _| field
/ S1a ___ 48v | M-|_____|
| | - | |
|__________|____________|B- | Controller
|_______|
With S2 open, and S1a and S1b closed, you have two 48v batteries in
parallel driving a 48v controller and series motor in a completely
normal fashion. The controller adjusts effective motor voltage from
0-48v.
With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
series for 96v. But the controller still only sees 48v between its B+
and B- terminals. The controller still adjusts the effective voltage at
M- from 0-48v. But since the top connection to the motor is 48v higher,
the motor sees 48-96v.
Thus you have two ranges; 0-48v, and 48-96v. Note that the controller's
current limit won't work in the 96v range. That's because even if the
controller is fully off, the motor is still connected to the upper 48v
battery through the controller's freewheel diode (between M- and B+).
Thus, you must not use the 96v range unless motor current is below the
controller's current limit.
In operation, you accelerate at 48v until the controller comes out of
current limit, release the throttle, switch to 96v, then re-apply the
throttle. If you're in the 96v range and start climbing a hill, you must
switch back to the 48v range before the motor current rises above the
controller's current limit.
Another quirk of this circuit is that the batteries are unequally
discharged in the 96v position; the upper battery always carries motor
current, while the lower one carries motor current x controller % duty
cycle. But the batteries will re-balance during the time spent in the
48v position.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Eric
I guess I should have said forced prison labor. I am all for offering them
the chance to work there is a huge difference. I hope your not saying the US
is just like China?
Don
In a message dated 10/29/2006 9:58:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>Hello Osmo
>
>If you do buy from the United States you can be assured there are laws
here
>to protect the environment. Also we do not have prison labor workers.
>
>
Here in the United States, prison labor is specifically allowed by the
13th Amendment. Thirty states have prison labor; it's a multi-billion
dollar industry, and the pay rate for inmates is often less than a
dollar an hour.
>
>>From small manufacturers you will also find a lot of pride in the product
>they make. I think this applies to many places around the world.
>
>I would rather buy from countries other than China and every year it is
>getting harder not to. At least here in the United States.
>
>Don.
>
>In a message dated 10/28/2006 2:05:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
>
>David Roden kirjoitti 27.10.2006 kello 18.49:
>
>
>
>>Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think) you're
>>a newbie
>>here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and Otmar, our
>>
>>I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I
>>really wish
>>you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere
>>else and use
>>them for something else.
>>
>>
>
>I´m a little surprised that the List Assistant Administrator
>wants to restrict the discussion to a certain geographical area. As
>far as I know the list is open to all. So there are many non-
>americans on this list. Should we all get our ev-parts from Rich and
>Otmar?
>
>I wonder if there are any chinese members on this list?
>
>Osmo Sarin
>Finland
>Europe
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If upgraded to 132 volts. How hot would that be?
I would have to find out if the iota charger (dc-dc
convertor) could handle 132vdc. It says 132vac on it,
and I have another curtis 1209b that logi upgraded to
120-144v 750amps.
thanks
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> The air passing through the element tends to have
> a certain
> >> temperature rise. The amount depends on the
> voltage and airflow.
> >> You can get temperature rises on the order of
> 30-60 deg.F.
>
> John Wayland wrote:
> > I would disagree with Lee's max temp rise of 60
> degrees...
> > my (144V) Datsun... Going from 38 degrees to 135
> degrees is nearly
> > a 100 degree temperature rise.
>
> That's because you are running a 120v element at
> 144v. As I said, the
> temperature rise depends on *voltage* and airflow.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That Written pole motor is a fascinating and an ingenius solution.
At first I thought it was named for a guy named Written. I had no idea
the motor rewrote the poles of the armature on the fly as it rotated to
match the pole needs at any given speed. (Hence the poles are "written"
with each revolution)
Just an incredible solution. And 97% efficiency.
www.Writtenpole.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Part of the reason that IGBTs only come in 600v and 1200v versions is
> to deal with the inevitably high transients. A 300v controller
> requires at least 600v parts, because it is so hard to clamp voltage
> spikes.
A 300V system should not require 600V parts. At my work, my professor
always shows me the Z-source converter that runs up to 450V with 600V
parts, and tells me that should be my goal. The Z-source converter is
actually quite difficult to design, at that. He says with a good
layout, the overshoot of a system can be limited to under 10%. (At one
point I believe he was the youngest IEEE fellow, so he's no dummy.)
However, if you're an inexperienced or uneducated engineer, maybe it is
good to go with twice-rated parts. But that's a separate issue.
> > perhaps even longer than if discretes were used.
>
> Yes, exactly! When you try to use many small devices, you wind up with
> the capacitor - transistor - diode path length being measured in feet
> rather than inches!
You're not reading carefully enough... But I don't blame you...my eyes
hurt after all of this computer work! :-) "Than if", not "if"...
These modules have to be so big because they're so lossy. And because
they're big, it almost automatically lengthens the high-frequency path.
That's why you have to make sure everything you need is inside one
package when you choose a module. This is the problem I'm having now at
my work...the single switch module is too big.
A foot-long path length probably won't work at all, unless it's
laminated at less than 0.03" thick. Every millimeter counts.
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sometime back in the 50's or 60's when these were being developed, they
place about hundred magnets on outside surface of a non-conductive motor
case, something like the Swiss ETEL brush less motors which was call a
Magnetic Motor at the time!
Each magnet has a coil winding and was control my a controller design by the
Mallory Company. A small current increase or weaken each magnet to control
the rpm.
Today these Written Pole motors have there rotors magnetized into any pole
configuration.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: Written pole motor is fascinating and an ingenius solution
> That Written pole motor is a fascinating and an ingenius solution.
> At first I thought it was named for a guy named Written. I had no idea
> the motor rewrote the poles of the armature on the fly as it rotated to
> match the pole needs at any given speed. (Hence the poles are "written"
> with each revolution)
>
> Just an incredible solution. And 97% efficiency.
>
>
> www.Writtenpole.com
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another irony is that China and Europe forbid the use of many
materials such as plywood, toys, equipment, etc due to their toxic
properties and yet US lobbyists insure they can be sold here in the
US even though these products are produced in china and prohibited to
be used in china. Imagine how bad the toxic properties must be if the
chinese government deems them unsafe...
So we can have the unsafe imports as long as there is enough money to
be made here in the US. In a strange way we both loose, they can
suffer from potential worker conditions and we get the cancer at the
cost of "cheaper products"
Competition is a good thing regardless of the source. In my business
if I sat back and did not provide very good customer service and
support I would suffer. My firm belief if that if you offer a quality
product, even if it comes at a premium, you will still do better than
the others. If you offer this product without good support or timely
delivery, no matter how good it is, at some point someone will come
along and beat you at the game. The more complicated the product the
more this applies. My customers go to the internet and find prices
below my cost and in the end I sell them to them for twice that
price- why because there is value in service and accurate,
professional information. I can't tell you how many take the cheap
route and come back to spend twice as much as they would because of
what the "did not think about at the time". Who many times have you
bought something that did not work and found that the cost of all
your learnings and time was more that if you bought the "more
expensive item".
Do I buy cheap stuff off the internet? you bet but when I know it is
something I may need support on I go for the higher price at the
place that is passionate about customer service and support.
In my experience of purchasing EV parts I have found suppliers that
seem as though they are not even legitimate businesses but fronts to
get investors for related ventures and others that offer very poor
communication and service, and then those such as EV Source for
example that provide courteous, professional, and very good response.
Good job Ryan. I am on my second charger from Rich and although he is
a very busy guy, he does take the time to help when he can and that's
why I promote his product and explain the reasons why it is worth the
extra money to all who ask about chargers.
Many business offer various pricing scales for products and services
including "premium" pricing for expedited delivery or "premium"
support. This is a great model because it satisfies both types of
customers to chose what makes sense for them. Would I pay "much" more
to get extra support on a product? You bet because a day of trying to
figure out something is a waste of my time when I can pay a bit more
to get a quick answer. Even a "pay as you go model"
I know this sounds like a bit of a rant but I think the future of the
after market EV business with be decided on those with the best
engineering for there price segment and those that have the good
business skills to market, support and communicate to their customer
base. Good support and customer service goes a long way to promoting
your business and establishing your brand. If you start a conversion
business and don't have a phone number, don't reply to e-mail, etc,
how much momentum will your business gain? You never know who is
looking. I attempted to buy a part off an EV site and they never
responded to multiple inquiries over three weeks. They also sell VERY
high ticket items $45K and up, do you think I would purchase
something like that from them after that experience?
Would I buy a EV product made overseas by a US company? Yes if it met
the criteria above and was build "in a responsible manner". Would I
prefer to buy it made here in the US- Yes.
Value is not determined by price alone and there is always room for
another bottled water to become successful even when others say "it
can't be done".
M
On Oct 29, 2006, at 9:20 AM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Osmo
If you do buy from the United States you can be assured there are
laws here to protect the environment. Also we do not have prison
labor workers.
Here in the United States, prison labor is specifically allowed by
the 13th Amendment. Thirty states have prison labor; it's a multi-
billion dollar industry, and the pay rate for inmates is often less
than a dollar an hour.
From small manufacturers you will also find a lot of pride in the
product
they make. I think this applies to many places around the world.
I would rather buy from countries other than China and every year
it is getting harder not to. At least here in the United States.
Don.
In a message dated 10/28/2006 2:05:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
David Roden kirjoitti 27.10.2006 kello 18.49:
Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think)
you're a newbie
here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and
Otmar, our
I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but
I really wish
you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere
else and use
them for something else.
I´m a little surprised that the List Assistant Administrator
wants to restrict the discussion to a certain geographical area.
As far as I know the list is open to all. So there are many non-
americans on this list. Should we all get our ev-parts from Rich
and Otmar?
I wonder if there are any chinese members on this list?
Osmo Sarin
Finland
Europe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I rather regret that I brought this up. The thread was on topic, but it's now
wandered off into discussions of sweatshop conditions in China, which was
not my intention at all. While I can't deny that I have a personal concern
about this, I didn't bring it up because it's not appropriate for the list -
it's off
topic and carries too many political overtones.
I was trying to express a concern - I think a valid one, but others may
disagree - for the future of small manufacturers closely connected with the
EV hobby community. Rich and Otmar are examples here but I'm sure there
are others in Europe and other places. These are people who, thank
goodness, listen to EV hobbyists and supply what they ask for. (I know, I
know, I've groused about certain elements of Rich's PFC charger design - but
I have to say that he asked the list what they wanted, and he built it, for
which is say "bravo.")
I worry that cheap, mass-produced, disposable knockoffs from cheap-labor
centers will disconnect the hobbyist community from the people who make
their components.
BTW, it's not just China, though they are a highly developed presence in
these matters. I'm also thinking of several other cheap-labor nations
including India, Thailand, and (lately) Vietnam.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Lee Hart wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
The air passing through the element tends to have a certain
temperature rise. The amount depends on the voltage and airflow.
You can get temperature rises on the order of 30-60 deg.F.
John Wayland wrote:
I would disagree with Lee's max temp rise of 60 degrees...
my (144V) Datsun... Going from 38 degrees to 135 degrees is nearly
a 100 degree temperature rise.
That's because you are running a 120v element at 144v. As I said, the
temperature rise depends on *voltage* and airflow.
OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the reminder, Lee. The single element
in Blue Meanie at the 156V level since right after the '97 tests were
done, does a pretty darn god job of keeping that small car ('72 Datsun
1200 sedan) warm, but if the temps here dropped to Minnesota levels, you
can bet I'd have twin elements!
Sidebar...the temperature at the Kuparuk camp on the North Slope goes as
low as -60 in the January through March months! There was talk of my
returning in a few months for another training class to Conoco-Phillips'
Alpine camp 35 miles to the east of Kuparuk at Deadhorse...yikes!
See Ya.....John 'now a Sloper' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
If upgraded to 132 volts. How hot would that be?
I'm actually running a 132v system right now. I have a single ceramic
heater element, and found it inadequate in Minnesota even with 132v. I
haven't measured the temperature rise, but it is probably about the same
as that at 120v that I measured on the bench due to voltage sag in th
pack while driving.
I would have to find out if the iota charger (dc-dc
convertor) could handle 132vdc.
The Iotas I know of are all 120vac power supplies, and only
coincidentally run on DC. The rectified peak of 120vac is 170vdc, so it
is a certainty that the Iota would run on 170vdc.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have non-circulated air passing through one stage of a heater
element, the rise is about 50 F.
Meaning, if you take 50 below zero (-50) air passing through one stage of a
electric heater element it will rise that temperature to about 0 degrees in
one pass.
To increase this temperature, you either circulated this air or install
another heater stage or stack elements which may be a wider heater element.
We install a non-circulating heating system for a vehicle paint booth.
Here, we have to bring in clean outside air passing through four stages
heating system, which will rise about 50 degrees per stage. It then is
exhausted out with large 6 foot diameters prop type fans.
When I install my electric heater system in my EV, which is in the same
location of the existing heater core, I knew that I had to reduce the
outside air, which is normally taken in for a engine type heater core, that
may get over 220 F.
I rework the heater doors which are control by vacuum motors. Instead of
heating up the electric hot water system to 180 F. I can defrost my
windshield with only 50 F. Don't have to wait until it gets to 180 F. I set
the heater limits lower anyway.
I also use two separate in cab heaters that are under dash type which are
place way back by the firewall, you do not know they are there. Last
winter, I only use 640 watt unit on the driver side. The 840 watt on the
passenger side was never used.
These inside heaters, are circulator type, which will rise the temperature
higher then 50 degrees after certain amount of passes.
All these heaters are 120 VAC 60 hz which is ran by a 5kw 120 VAC 60 hz on
board unit. This allows easy transfer to commercial power for preheating
which takes about 5 to 10 minutes.
As for insulating the cab of my EV, I went to a upholstery shop, and pick up
some of that soft foam. I use the very firm blue foam which ran along the
floor and up to the windshield and back and up to the rear window.
The doors have a white water proof spray on material and than a layer of 3/4
inch soft white foam under the door panels.
The battery boxes have the building type Dow blue foam which is 2 inches
thick in two space layers. This foam is than cover with a water proof
marine rug.
I do not heat my batteries any longer. The minimum temperature I saw was 66
degrees.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: brrr cold zero F today
> If upgraded to 132 volts. How hot would that be?
> I would have to find out if the iota charger (dc-dc
> convertor) could handle 132vdc. It says 132vac on it,
> and I have another curtis 1209b that logi upgraded to
> 120-144v 750amps.
>
> thanks
>
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > >> The air passing through the element tends to have
> > a certain
> > >> temperature rise. The amount depends on the
> > voltage and airflow.
> > >> You can get temperature rises on the order of
> > 30-60 deg.F.
> >
> > John Wayland wrote:
> > > I would disagree with Lee's max temp rise of 60
> > degrees...
> > > my (144V) Datsun... Going from 38 degrees to 135
> > degrees is nearly
> > > a 100 degree temperature rise.
> >
> > That's because you are running a 120v element at
> > 144v. As I said, the
> > temperature rise depends on *voltage* and airflow.
> > --
> > Ring the bells that still can ring
> > Forget the perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> > leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
> Groups
> (http://groups.yahoo.com)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hmm, maybe a propane camping heater would be approriate for very cold
driving conditions.
Jack
Roland Wiench wrote:
If you have non-circulated air passing through one stage of a heater
element, the rise is about 50 F.
Meaning, if you take 50 below zero (-50) air passing through one stage of a
electric heater element it will rise that temperature to about 0 degrees in
one pass.
To increase this temperature, you either circulated this air or install
another heater stage or stack elements which may be a wider heater element.
We install a non-circulating heating system for a vehicle paint booth.
Here, we have to bring in clean outside air passing through four stages
heating system, which will rise about 50 degrees per stage. It then is
exhausted out with large 6 foot diameters prop type fans.
When I install my electric heater system in my EV, which is in the same
location of the existing heater core, I knew that I had to reduce the
outside air, which is normally taken in for a engine type heater core, that
may get over 220 F.
I rework the heater doors which are control by vacuum motors. Instead of
heating up the electric hot water system to 180 F. I can defrost my
windshield with only 50 F. Don't have to wait until it gets to 180 F. I set
the heater limits lower anyway.
I also use two separate in cab heaters that are under dash type which are
place way back by the firewall, you do not know they are there. Last
winter, I only use 640 watt unit on the driver side. The 840 watt on the
passenger side was never used.
These inside heaters, are circulator type, which will rise the temperature
higher then 50 degrees after certain amount of passes.
All these heaters are 120 VAC 60 hz which is ran by a 5kw 120 VAC 60 hz on
board unit. This allows easy transfer to commercial power for preheating
which takes about 5 to 10 minutes.
As for insulating the cab of my EV, I went to a upholstery shop, and pick up
some of that soft foam. I use the very firm blue foam which ran along the
floor and up to the windshield and back and up to the rear window.
The doors have a white water proof spray on material and than a layer of 3/4
inch soft white foam under the door panels.
The battery boxes have the building type Dow blue foam which is 2 inches
thick in two space layers. This foam is than cover with a water proof
marine rug.
I do not heat my batteries any longer. The minimum temperature I saw was 66
degrees.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: brrr cold zero F today
If upgraded to 132 volts. How hot would that be?
I would have to find out if the iota charger (dc-dc
convertor) could handle 132vdc. It says 132vac on it,
and I have another curtis 1209b that logi upgraded to
120-144v 750amps.
thanks
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
The air passing through the element tends to have
a certain
temperature rise. The amount depends on the
voltage and airflow.
You can get temperature rises on the order of
30-60 deg.F.
John Wayland wrote:
I would disagree with Lee's max temp rise of 60
degrees...
my (144V) Datsun... Going from 38 degrees to 135
degrees is nearly
a 100 degree temperature rise.
That's because you are running a 120v element at
144v. As I said, the
temperature rise depends on *voltage* and airflow.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
Groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com)
--- End Message ---
