EV Digest 6078
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Adapter plates s 10 fits Camarro tranny
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?Ganging up?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Hello WORLD! was Re: I can build your controller
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: I can build your controller, off topic
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: I can build your controller
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hello WORLD! was Re: I can build your controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: E-bay finds - ending today
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: brrr cold zero F today-insulation idea
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I can build your controller
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: NiMH batteries from GM Ovonics or Panasonic used in EV1, S10,
RAV4 etc.
by billb <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AGM battery charging
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) There's a Skunk on the road
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they will
see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
No, this is not the case. This schematic assumes a Curtis controller,
which has its transistors and diodes wired as shown:
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
| S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | | D1 /_\ | _| field
| __|__ + | |___|_____|
/ S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
| | - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | | |
|__________|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
series for 96v. When MOSFET transistor Q1 is on, M- is at 0v, B+ is at
48v, and the top terminal of the armature is at 96v. When Q1 turns off,
M- only goes up to 48v because D1 conducts, clamping it at B+ = 48v. So,
the controller never sees more than 48v no matter what, while the
voltage across the motor cycles between 96v and 48v.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 9:25 AM
Subject: Re: Sunrise: Midnight
> Lee
>
> If you're thinking of ramping up to production levels, have you started a
list of possible
> regional dealers? The East Coast has been somewhat under represented. I'm
sure Bob has brought
> this up already, but I think Connecticut would make an excellent location
for a dealership. We
> could offer the full size Sunrise II (name?) and Jerry's commuter car.
Ship us the rolling
> chassis, we build it to buyers spec and train the user to plug in an
extension cord. Local sales,
> service, etc. etc.
>
> Bob, when are you back in town? I'm 90% of the way to my first EV grin,
but I won't have the range
> to make it to Killingly right away. But soon....
>
> Dave Cover
> Hi Dave an' EVerybody;
I'm baaaaack! At last, got in yesterday Am, exhausted after a loooong
drive from Chicago in the driving(not) rain. Preii DO work underwater!Lee
has covered alot of the New Sunrise Project, I'll fill in a bit, to, as I
recover from mountains of Snail mail and E mails.it was fun being with lee,
driving to FLA and Minnesota. That's a long damn way!Hope I didn't drive Lee
nuts with my simplistic controller ideas. Well, I learned that doing Solid
State controllers isn't easy!
You don't hafta make it to Killingly. Killingworth is closer, and
downhill for you, north to south! Maybe to the next Club meeting? Got a Bad
Boy I charge Bill Glickman's VW so there is juice for EVerybody.Between the
Freedom EV and the Sunrise Project I see heartwarming progress for our EV's.
Looks lioke Jerry will have a Roll Out for Battery Beach Burnout?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is exactly why I suggest we standardize all adapters on the
"pre-one-piece-seal" chevy crank.
Add to that the availability of racing clutches that are also standard
and the motor Bell design I came up with and the tranny adapter is just
a flat plate.
A kit would be keyed shaft to SBC crank adapter + 12" dia motor bell +
tilton or quartermaster clutch on button flywheel ; the same for all kits.
Then the per donar parts would be a flat alum plate water jet to shape,
cnc holes to mount. with the standard mount for the 12" bell and a set
of clutch disks with the donar's spline.
Because of the commonality between the parts and the ease of the tranny
mount plate, the costs could be kept reasonable.
I got the quotes for a machine shop making batches of 10 parts and even
having them hard anodized. I just don't have to money to start a
conversion kit buisness and I would have to buy a lot from the wrecking
yard to develop the patterns.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
> A suggestion from the repercussions on the Curtis ('Cursit' was the cute
> name that got picked up)
> discussion was that I just select an Alltrax 7245 - 72 volts, 450 amps.
> Actually, I have one for another low voltage project, almost ready to
> deploy, etc.
> What about putting two of these controllers in series, then I've got
> -144 v
> - 450 amps
> - no squeal
> - current limit programmable
> - a generally most excellent Damon Crocket product (as the rep I've
> heard/read about;
> have yet to see a thread on 'AllTrash' controllers, etc. ...)
> Hi Seth;
I'll take a stab at this one; I think you would have a bear of a time
getting them to share the load?Maybe better to buy TWO motors, one for each
controller? Or a Siamese motor setup. It's too bad that Altrax hasn't begun
to bump up their voltage beyond 72 volts, like 120(Hint) for other light
cars.I think Alltrax is up to their ears in the 72 and below market, at
least for now?
But it sure would be nice to buy a Altrax 120 volt 600 amp
controller......again, after all it USED to be DC Propulsion , years ago.
Maybe somebody else, who knows what he's talking about(Lee?) as to WHY
controllers can't gang up happily?
Seeya
Bob
> Even a 72 volter, I suppose, with using a 4 or 5 gears, might that
allow
> you decent top speeds?
> (just throwing it out for guys who do these calculations in their heads)
> though I saw one Saturn conversion a few months back with a 72 volt,
Alltrax
> system that had top speed advertised as something like 45 -50 mph - so I'm
> guessing that's probably typical. I would like to at least be able to get
> on the highway once in a while, I think.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth
>
> ((have a nice day, even to all those Curtis people, whoever ye may be ...
> aargh!)
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> I wonder if there are any Chinese members on this list?
>
> Osmo Sarin
> Finland
> Europe
>
> Hi Osmo;
I have asked before now an' again on the List as to any Chinese EV Folks
on the List. So far no answer. But you are right this is an International
List. I welcome ANYONE on the planet to join in. So here goes;
HEY! CHINA!? Come out of hiding, say Hello! We're here for the betterment
of the World, through our EV's. So chime in here. Don't be shy! This goes
for Russia, Iran, Iraq, North, an' South Korea. We are family, dispite our
governments and religions.
Yours,for a EV peaceful world.
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting,
I too do sourcing, more in Taiwan then China.
Sweat shops, some are, some not so much. The place that does most of our
manufacturing is in QuanDong. The average Chinese employee gets 0.75USD/hr.
Not bad considering they also get room and board(two people to a dorm room
bath down the hall.) much like the college days and remember also the
average employee has a 3rd grade education. (Don't forget, minimum wage in
the states, what, under $6.00?)
That's als othe down side.
IF IT WERE ME. I would do final aassy in the states. I would have the boards
made and stuffed, extrusions made, cut and anodized, packing, boxes and
instructions all made in Taiwan. (Most of those people made it through
highschool) have it all bulk shipped to the states. Then do final assembly
and functional test and burn-in done here.
Just my opinion. (5 years traveling, 22 trips to Taiwan, 6 to China, 8 to
the UK. UK, now there's a lifestyle!!)
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: I can build your controller, off topic
I rather regret that I brought this up. The thread was on topic, but it's
now
wandered off into discussions of sweatshop conditions in China, which was
not my intention at all. While I can't deny that I have a personal concern
about this, I didn't bring it up because it's not appropriate for the
list - it's off
topic and carries too many political overtones.
I was trying to express a concern - I think a valid one, but others may
disagree - for the future of small manufacturers closely connected with
the
EV hobby community. Rich and Otmar are examples here but I'm sure there
are others in Europe and other places. These are people who, thank
goodness, listen to EV hobbyists and supply what they ask for. (I know, I
know, I've groused about certain elements of Rich's PFC charger design -
but
I have to say that he asked the list what they wanted, and he built it,
for
which is say "bravo.")
I worry that cheap, mass-produced, disposable knockoffs from cheap-labor
centers will disconnect the hobbyist community from the people who make
their components.
BTW, it's not just China, though they are a highly developed presence in
these matters. I'm also thinking of several other cheap-labor nations
including India, Thailand, and (lately) Vietnam.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, but then D1 sees a voltage fluctuating between 48V and 96V. Assuming
it's rated for less than 96V, won't it blow?.
> Jack Murray wrote:
>> Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they will
>> see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
>
> No, this is not the case. This schematic assumes a Curtis controller,
> which has its transistors and diodes wired as shown:
> _____________________________________
> | | _|_
> __|__ + | / \ armature
> ___ 48v / S1b \___/
> | - | _________ | series
> |____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
> | S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
> | | | D1 /_\ | _| field
> | __|__ + | |___|_____|
> / S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
> | | - | -||_ Q1 |
> | | | | | |
> |__________|____________|_____| | Controller
> B-|_________|
>
> With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
> series for 96v. When MOSFET transistor Q1 is on, M- is at 0v, B+ is at
> 48v, and the top terminal of the armature is at 96v. When Q1 turns off,
> M- only goes up to 48v because D1 conducts, clamping it at B+ = 48v. So,
> the controller never sees more than 48v no matter what, while the
> voltage across the motor cycles between 96v and 48v.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wish I had the time to be on the list more often.
I too have my problems with manufacturing in Asia, as stated in my last
post, but Asia IS coming of age and WILL be a large factor in the coming
years. You might want to ignore them but in the end they will be here.
Another way to look at the whole "slave labor" thing is that what we are
doing is HELPING the poor people of third world countries to get out of
poverty.
Mark Grasser
I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I really
wish
you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere else
and use
them for something else.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
I wonder if there are any Chinese members on this list?
Osmo Sarin
Finland
Europe
Hi Osmo;
I have asked before now an' again on the List as to any Chinese EV Folks
on the List. So far no answer. But you are right this is an International
List. I welcome ANYONE on the planet to join in. So here goes;
HEY! CHINA!? Come out of hiding, say Hello! We're here for the betterment
of the World, through our EV's. So chime in here. Don't be shy! This goes
for Russia, Iran, Iraq, North, an' South Korea. We are family, dispite our
governments and religions.
Yours,for a EV peaceful world.
Bob
Perhaps they want to participate but can't:
http://www.opennetinitiative.net/studies/china/
Anybody in a position to test it?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That what it looks to me, instead of blowing the fet, you blow the diode.
Also, through D1 is now the full motor current as well, rather than just
a short inductive kick when Q1 closes, so that path will probably burn up.
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Yes, but then D1 sees a voltage fluctuating between 48V and 96V. Assuming
it's rated for less than 96V, won't it blow?.
Jack Murray wrote:
Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they will
see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
No, this is not the case. This schematic assumes a Curtis controller,
which has its transistors and diodes wired as shown:
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
| S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | | D1 /_\ | _| field
| __|__ + | |___|_____|
/ S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
| | - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | | |
|__________|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
series for 96v. When MOSFET transistor Q1 is on, M- is at 0v, B+ is at
48v, and the top terminal of the armature is at 96v. When Q1 turns off,
M- only goes up to 48v because D1 conducts, clamping it at B+ = 48v. So,
the controller never sees more than 48v no matter what, while the
voltage across the motor cycles between 96v and 48v.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think that you would need 4" thick cable or something to
handle the current. : )
I am not an expert.
Tehben
On Oct 29, 2006, at 5:34 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 10/29/2006 7:20:01 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Just curious, would these "26 volt" forklift motors be appropriate
for for
an EV conversion to a small car (like a VW bug or Rabbit)
Thanks
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
OPPS....
Meant "36 volt motors"
Thanks
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No,
The diode current is still the same motor current as Q1 sees
due to the fast switching, the motor *current* has not enough
time to change, only the motor *voltage* changes, switching
between 48V and 96V.
Both the diode and Q1 see the output voltage switch between
0 and 48V because they are wired between 0 and 48V while the
output of the controller switches between 0 and 48V.
The diode *always* carries the full motor current at the moments
that this current does not go through Q1, so that is no change,
but the difference is that the motor is connected to 96V so the
motor current *can* be much larger.
The devil is in the detail that the controller can no longer limit
the motor current when the motor voltage drops to 48V, for example
when climbing a hill.
The diode "shorts" the motor to the second battery and will
supply as much current as the motor asks until it dies.
So, the operator needs to be very aware of this pitfall in the setup
or it needs to be automated, although that makes it a less simple
circuit.
One low-pass filter (R+C) and a comparator checking that the
average motor voltage is above 48V and else dis-engages S2 and
closes S1a and S1b to continue in 48V mode and have normal
protection on the controller, is all it takes.
With a manual turbo button to open S1a and S1b and close S2, this
setup will work well and protect from the pitfall outlined above.
To make it fancy, a second comparator can check motor voltage to
see if it runs at 48V continuously and light a lamp in the dash,
indicating that the turbo mode is allowed to be engaged.
With a second lamp indicating the turbo mode is enabled (S2 closed)
you will get a feedback when losing the turbo on a steep hill
due to undervoltage (current limit) on the motor.
NOTE that you will also need a manual button to dis-engage turbo
because releasing the throttle will otherwise give the motor
a continuous 48V so you will continue to drive pretty fast
with closed throttle - scary for anybody not used to this
operation, so it makes your car not universal driveable, you
don't want your significant other to be racing to a stopsign
or light and trying to hold the car with the foot brake while
the motor is trying to draw 2000 Amps out of the upper 48V
battery, ready to take off with tires smoking *and* when
stopped for a few seconds, with a smoking motor!
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
That what it looks to me, instead of blowing the fet, you blow the diode.
Also, through D1 is now the full motor current as well, rather than just
a short inductive kick when Q1 closes, so that path will probably burn up.
Jack
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Yes, but then D1 sees a voltage fluctuating between 48V and 96V. Assuming
> it's rated for less than 96V, won't it blow?.
>
>
>>Jack Murray wrote:
>>
>>>Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they will
>>>see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
>>
>>No, this is not the case. This schematic assumes a Curtis controller,
>>which has its transistors and diodes wired as shown:
>> _____________________________________
>> | | _|_
>> __|__ + | / \ armature
>> ___ 48v / S1b \___/
>> | - | _________ | series
>> |____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
>> | S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
>> | | | D1 /_\ | _| field
>> | __|__ + | |___|_____|
>> / S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
>> | | - | -||_ Q1 |
>> | | | | | |
>> |__________|____________|_____| | Controller
>> B-|_________|
>>
>>With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
>>series for 96v. When MOSFET transistor Q1 is on, M- is at 0v, B+ is at
>>48v, and the top terminal of the armature is at 96v. When Q1 turns off,
>>M- only goes up to 48v because D1 conducts, clamping it at B+ = 48v. So,
>>the controller never sees more than 48v no matter what, while the
>>voltage across the motor cycles between 96v and 48v.
>>--
>>Ring the bells that still can ring
>>Forget the perfect offering
>>There is a crack in everything
>>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>--
>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't know about that stuff, but ordinary spray foam
made for sealing up your house will rust metal like
crazy. It seems to be hygroscopic. I'd test before
risking my sheetmetal.
storm
--- Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> For those with really Cold weather here an idea. A
> Co-worker used this to insulate his ICE car for
> better
> AC. He sprayed it above the headliner in to the
> window
> frame- inside the door panels. Any place he could
> get
> to. It stick to the wall. Un-sure how well is would
> work for you. I've been considering it for my CRX in
> progress.
>
> www.tigerfoam.com/index.php
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
> (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Eric
I guess I should have said forced prison labor. I am all for offering them
the chance to work there is a huge difference. I hope your not saying the US
is just like China?
"Forced" is a loaded word. It's not uncommon that inmates receive 1 day
off their sentence for every day that they work. So, if you don't
"want" to work, then your sentence is twice as long. I guess it's not
technically "forced."
Don
In a message dated 10/29/2006 9:58:26 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hello Osmo
If you do buy from the United States you can be assured there are laws
here
to protect the environment. Also we do not have prison labor workers.
Here in the United States, prison labor is specifically allowed by the
13th Amendment. Thirty states have prison labor; it's a multi-billion
dollar industry, and the pay rate for inmates is often less than a
dollar an hour.
From small manufacturers you will also find a lot of pride in the product
they make. I think this applies to many places around the world.
I would rather buy from countries other than China and every year it is
getting harder not to. At least here in the United States.
Don.
In a message dated 10/28/2006 2:05:46 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
David Roden kirjoitti 27.10.2006 kello 18.49:
Josh, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since (I think) you're
a newbie
here, but how about a little concern for guys like Rich and Otmar, our
I don't want a fight, and I don't want to seem ungrateful, but I
really wish
you would take your Chinese manufacturing connections somewhere
else and use
them for something else.
I´m a little surprised that the List Assistant Administrator
wants to restrict the discussion to a certain geographical area. As
far as I know the list is open to all. So there are many non-
americans on this list. Should we all get our ev-parts from Rich and
Otmar?
I wonder if there are any chinese members on this list?
Osmo Sarin
Finland
Europe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am glad to see folks discussing the Panasonic NiMh 95 ah batteries I
have had some experience with these, They are interesting in that there
is very little data
provided about them, everything is "proprietary" although by dissecting
a RAV4 pack I was able to determine some things, one they do use a
"pilot" cell with a pressure sensor screwed into it. This sensor has a 0
to 5v out depending on cell pressure. They have temp sensors in a few
batteries and they appear to monitor the voltage on each of the 27 , 10
cell batteries. each battery is composed of 10 cells strapped into a
block they can be disassembled and can be reconfigured as needed as
long as you keep the two straps retaining the cells in place, as there
is considerable pressure on the cell walls during charging. You are
right they have a wicked temperature and pressure spike at end of charge
They force a lot of air through the cells by way of the ribs on the side
of each cell. venting out the bottom of the pack . I hope we can
compare notes and establish a data base for the use of these batteries.
Bill Brinsmead, Physics dept.
University of Nevada, Reno
dt/dt don't work on these NIMH !
read below please about NIMH for EPIC Chrysler, they used a special
algorythme:
first step: Charge at C/3 -> dT°C/dt = 9°C/h
then overcharge by 10% of first step less 6Ah
...not easy !
---------------------------------
you can use too:
charging at C/5 or C/4 until having
1.2bar pressure, you just have to adapt one pressure sensor (as motorola MPX
series).
more easy and effective...
Other possibility is this one which looks like lead acid (crude but it works
also)
max initial current C/5, U given at 20°C ambiant
Type U temp Compensation time
Bulk 14.6V -17.5mV/°C -> U
Absorption 14.6V -17.5mV/°C 2h
Floating 14.1V -17.5mV/°C Permanent
you absoluely need liquid cooling during charge and also discharge (better
for life)
Temp security at 50°C max(charge/discharge) otherwise AH will go definitely
down.
These cells prefer not being charged to 100% and not being discharged to
less than 20%
best usage windows for maximum cyclic life is 20% min 80% max as lithium
in fact.
these are very fragile but good game with these maravelous cells :^)
thise is a copy of an email i send about saft NIMH:
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ray Wong" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: NiMH batteries from GM Ovonics or Panasonic used in EV1, S10
and Ranger etc.
The Nimh are still near my bench with big lab power supplies and lab data
acquisition equipment and load banks. My auto EV project are not up and
running yet.
I may end up using an Agilent 34970 to monitor the temperature and
control the constant current charger. I have a Link10 with RS232 to give me
some additional data but I think temperature monitoring may be the best way
to charge these batteries. Right now I charge at 20 amps until I see a rise
in temperature, then I back off the current for a top off period. If you
had a basic constant current charger and a stand alone Omega multi-input
temperature alarm, you could probably charge just fine. A backup timer
would be helpful. Maybe a low constant current equalize every once in a
while.
I am sure the RAV4 EV has a good charge algorithm. Anyone know what
they do?
If you avoid the reverse polarity on discharge and overheating due to
overcharging, then these cells will last a real long time. Mine are at
least 6 years old and probably quite a few hundred cycles, yet they seem to
give me almost a full rated charge once I removed the bad cells. I am sure
that a few more cells may fail after a few hundred more cycles but if they
get swapped out, the pack will be good for many more cycles.
I have heard of up to 100,000 miles on these batteries with 80% of
capacity. IMHO, the 80% capacity can be kept higher if only a few bad cells
are replaced. The majority of the cells seem to be at full capacity.
The Prius has NiMh batteries that are said to last longer than the
vehicle. They can do this by keeping the battery operating in a safe middle
zone, never discharge too much, never overcharge too much. Adding the EV
switch to a Prius will reduce the life of the battery considerably as you
are now discharging much further and risking a cell reversal.
Ezesport
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
That is waht I was thinking also, there may be a cell or two dead and
with
rearrangement, some work can be done.
What BMS module did you use? Any details will be welcome, thanks
JJ
> I bought 18 of these M-95 from a Ranger pack that were considered dead.
> It took a lot of time but I now have 16 good packs that test to around
> 90ah at C/2.
>
> The battery pack can be rebuilt if you have spare cells. Most of the
> time there was only one cell that died on each battery.
>
> Too bad there are not a lot of these around. Someone sold 17 of these
> on ebay for $5500 just last week.
>
> Ezesport
>
>
> Death to All Spammers wrote:
> > Well, that don't make these anymore, so any you find (and where the
> heck
>> did you find any?) are probably 6-8 years old and may very well be
> near
>> the end of their useful life.
>> Personally, I'd prefer ones that have been tested to insure they
> still
>> work. The untested, uncharged ones might yield somewhere in the
>> neighborhood of zero.
>>
>
> But think of what a find if you discovered a cache of several hundred
> Panasonic 95AH cells - even if untested and never charged, it would be
> worth evaluating each one for potential use, since they aren't suppose
> to have the same calender issues. Then again, it's most likely a
> pipedream.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, but in order for the motor to draw the same current, it needs to keep
the voltage near 96V to overcome BEMF. This means that the inductive
'kick' gets added to the battery voltage and the diode /sees/ 96V, at
least that's the way it looks to me.
Unless you're saying that this setup somehow eliminates the inductive kick?
> No,
> The diode current is still the same motor current as Q1 sees
> due to the fast switching, the motor *current* has not enough
> time to change, only the motor *voltage* changes, switching
> between 48V and 96V.
> Both the diode and Q1 see the output voltage switch between
> 0 and 48V because they are wired between 0 and 48V while the
> output of the controller switches between 0 and 48V.
>
> The diode *always* carries the full motor current at the moments
> that this current does not go through Q1, so that is no change,
> but the difference is that the motor is connected to 96V so the
> motor current *can* be much larger.
> The devil is in the detail that the controller can no longer limit
> the motor current when the motor voltage drops to 48V, for example
> when climbing a hill.
> The diode "shorts" the motor to the second battery and will
> supply as much current as the motor asks until it dies.
>
> So, the operator needs to be very aware of this pitfall in the setup
> or it needs to be automated, although that makes it a less simple
> circuit.
> One low-pass filter (R+C) and a comparator checking that the
> average motor voltage is above 48V and else dis-engages S2 and
> closes S1a and S1b to continue in 48V mode and have normal
> protection on the controller, is all it takes.
> With a manual turbo button to open S1a and S1b and close S2, this
> setup will work well and protect from the pitfall outlined above.
> To make it fancy, a second comparator can check motor voltage to
> see if it runs at 48V continuously and light a lamp in the dash,
> indicating that the turbo mode is allowed to be engaged.
> With a second lamp indicating the turbo mode is enabled (S2 closed)
> you will get a feedback when losing the turbo on a steep hill
> due to undervoltage (current limit) on the motor.
>
> NOTE that you will also need a manual button to dis-engage turbo
> because releasing the throttle will otherwise give the motor
> a continuous 48V so you will continue to drive pretty fast
> with closed throttle - scary for anybody not used to this
> operation, so it makes your car not universal driveable, you
> don't want your significant other to be racing to a stopsign
> or light and trying to hold the car with the foot brake while
> the motor is trying to draw 2000 Amps out of the upper 48V
> battery, ready to take off with tires smoking *and* when
> stopped for a few seconds, with a smoking motor!
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jack Murray
> Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 4:47 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
>
>
> That what it looks to me, instead of blowing the fet, you blow the diode.
> Also, through D1 is now the full motor current as well, rather than just
> a short inductive kick when Q1 closes, so that path will probably burn up.
> Jack
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> Yes, but then D1 sees a voltage fluctuating between 48V and 96V.
>> Assuming
>> it's rated for less than 96V, won't it blow?.
>>
>>
>>>Jack Murray wrote:
>>>
>>>>Between M- and B- will be 96v, which is where the FETs are, so they
>>>> will
>>>>see the full voltage and blow up if only rated for 48v.
>>>
>>>No, this is not the case. This schematic assumes a Curtis controller,
>>>which has its transistors and diodes wired as shown:
>>> _____________________________________
>>> | | _|_
>>> __|__ + | / \ armature
>>> ___ 48v / S1b \___/
>>> | - | _________ | series
>>> |____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
>>> | S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
>>> | | | D1 /_\ | _| field
>>> | __|__ + | |___|_____|
>>> / S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
>>> | | - | -||_ Q1 |
>>> | | | | | |
>>> |__________|____________|_____| | Controller
>>> B-|_________|
>>>
>>>With S1a and S1b open, and S2 closed, the two 48v batteries are wired in
>>>series for 96v. When MOSFET transistor Q1 is on, M- is at 0v, B+ is at
>>>48v, and the top terminal of the armature is at 96v. When Q1 turns off,
>>>M- only goes up to 48v because D1 conducts, clamping it at B+ = 48v. So,
>>>the controller never sees more than 48v no matter what, while the
>>>voltage across the motor cycles between 96v and 48v.
>>>--
>>>Ring the bells that still can ring
>>>Forget the perfect offering
>>>There is a crack in everything
>>>That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
>>>--
>>>Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you can see the batteries, build the Lee Hart charge regulator with a
light bulb and a night light controller.
I understand Lee's light bulb regulator, but what is this?
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>Yes, but in order for the motor to draw the same current, it needs to keep
>the voltage near 96V to overcome BEMF. This means that the inductive
>'kick' gets added to the battery voltage and the diode /sees/ 96V, at
>least that's the way it looks to me.
>
>Unless you're saying that this setup somehow eliminates the inductive kick?
>
>
Referencing the schematic, the bottom of the motor tries to go positive
when the MOSFET turns off. The inductive kick only can hurt the MOSFET
in this style of buck converter.
Cory Cross
>
>
>>>> _____________________________________
>>>> | | _|_
>>>> __|__ + | / \ armature
>>>> ___ 48v / S1b \___/
>>>> | - | _________ | series
>>>> |____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
>>>> | S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
>>>> | | | D1 /_\ | _| field
>>>> | __|__ + | |___|_____|
>>>> / S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
>>>> | | - | -||_ Q1 |
>>>> | | | | | |
>>>> |__________|____________|_____| | Controller
>>>> B-|_________|
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I finally got my conversion put back together and on the road. As the
painter was doing the paint job, he said it looked like a skunk and the
name stuck. I have uploaded a couple of pictures to the EV Album site for
anyone who is interested.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
respectfully,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Oct 2006 at 0:35, Lee Hart wrote:
> - Same all-composite chassis and body, but rely more on conventional
> fiberglass than on carbon fiber.
Presumably this is to reduce cost.
Curiously, you say "same ... body," but then you go on to describe extensive
alterations to the body design (see below).
> - Replace the light-but-weak Geo Metro McPherson strut front suspension
> with Mustang II A-arm suspension, which is widely available in the
> kit car market.
Are you sure it's readily available? The Mustang II has been out of
production for a very long time now.
> - Replace the weak Dodge Neon rear suspension with fully independent
> A-arm rear suspension, also from the kit car market.
Interesting that Solectria would have used a Neon rear. I think I recall
the Sunrise being developed about 1994 or so. The Neon would have barely
been introduced then.
> - Change to rear wheel drive. Essentially all high performance sports
> cars and sedans are rear wheel drive. It is much easier to get strong rear
> differentials in any desired ratio, enabling extremely fast accelleration.
But the Sunrise was developed as a family car, not a sports car. There are
other high performance EVs in the pipeline. Notice how Prius sales improved
when it became a family car in its second generation.
Carrying the whole drive in the nose is a proven strategy for moderate-
performance vehicles and promotes a stable (understeering) handling
characteristic.
It sounds like you're planning to make the Sunrise more like an Electrovair -
rear motor and drive with IRS - in this regard.
> - A large, quick-change battery pack. The central tunnel is enlarged
> slightly, to 124"l x 12"h x 14.5"w to allow any battery type up to 24 6v
> T-145's. The pack slides out the front, complete with bumper and front
> "clip".
Excellent idea, but it seems to me that it could slide out the back just as
easily if the vehicle were front-drive.
> - Rather than a single one-piece nonrepairable body, the front and
> rear are replaceable "clips" to make crash testing and repairs
> easier.
I'd think you'd increase mass significantly by doing this. But I'm no
expert.
> - The design will be modular (like a modern PC), so that builders can
> use a wide range of motors, controllers, and batteries. You can build it
> for low cost or luxury, efficiency or performance, AC or DC, lead-acids or
> lithiums, etc.
This is definitely the way to go.
Overall, I think you have some outstanding ideas, but I also think that the
resulting vehicle will be a Sunrise in appearance only. You are changing
some very fundamental aspects of the car's design. It remains to be seen
how much of the car's almost legendary efficiency will be lost (or
improved!) by these changes.
I also wonder whether you won't obviate the prototype crash testing, so that
retesting becomes necessary should you ever reach the assembled-unit sales
stage.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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