EV Digest 6079
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: brrr cold zero F today-insulation idea
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) considering conversion cars
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) prescaler saying 72.2volts
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Emeter wierdness
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: considering conversion cars
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EV pusher Trailer
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: I can build your controller
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Electronic Circuit Design and Simulation Software
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hello WORLD! was Re: I can build your controller
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Nickel Iron Batteries for sale
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: [uselectricar] Emeter wierdness
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) EV Controllers, Option 5
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Oct 2006 at 13:26, Jack Murray wrote:
> maybe a propane camping heater would be approriate for very cold
> driving conditions.
Only if they are direct-vented to outside. The old Citicars came with
ventless propane heaters. Though I never used one, I read that when you
turned them on, you had instant fog on the windows.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Oct 2006 at 7:02, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> prayed it above the headliner in to the window
> frame- inside the door panels.
I'd be concerned that it would trap moisture next to the panels and promote
rust.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking at either the Fiat Uno or the Suzuki Swift as conversion cars.
They have similar frontal area (1.58m x 1.35m vs 1.55m x 1.42m)
and weight (887kg vs. 845kg).
Does any one have any recommendations for better cheap/common cars
for conversion?
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't
Haifa 32000
Israel
972 4 8293669
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
RV's use one with a heat exchanger, usually referred to as a "propane
furnace" but the term's usage is not controlled.
Suburban Propane makes one which is very popular but it produces a lot
more than your need for a car. It has an electronic control board,
controls ignition and safety cycles. Fans take about 4 amps @ 12v when
the burner is on IIRC. However, in my experience it is unreasonably
touchy for the ignitor to actually get the mixture to ignite.
Another product that comes to mind in the Zodi "hot air machine",
another heat exchanger design. Zodi makes the propane instant hot water
heaters for camping. The hot air machine is supposed to heat a tent,
10,000 BTU, which sounds comparable to heating a car. There are 2 hoses
which handle the room air in/out and the combustion airflow is
uncontained (kept outside the tent). It's got no "smart" control board
though, you turn on the gas and light it manually.
http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodihotvent.html
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 29 Oct 2006 at 13:26, Jack Murray wrote:
maybe a propane camping heater would be approriate for very cold
driving conditions.
Only if they are direct-vented to outside. The old Citicars came with
ventless propane heaters. Though I never used one, I read that when you
turned them on, you had instant fog on the windows.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm about to reconnect my emeter, and the prescaler
reading through a volt meter is saying 72.2 volts. Is
that OK?
I'm running a 120volt system, and the batteries were
on a charger. I'm using the 900086 0-500v prescaler.
thanks
____________________________________________________________________________________
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
(http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Mike. I have the same problem with my Cloud Electric Batman II meter.
Bruce Sherry wrote me back that it could be due to the thermocouple effect from
wherever you make a junction in the wires. Since I had to extend mine, that is
a reasonable explanation. If the junctions at each end are not at the same
temperature, there will be a voltage generated. It consistently reads between
+0.1 and +0.5 on a 500A 50 mV shunt, so this low current is only a difference
of microvolts. It doesn't make a big difference for Ah, but it does on the Wh
counter. Not too big a deal while driving, though.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EVDL <[email protected]>; US Electricar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:13:44 AM
Subject: Emeter wierdness
Speaking of Emeters. I don't remember my meter doing this before. When
the truck is off the emeter shows about +.5 or +.6 amps. So when it
sits for a while the Ah's merrily count upward. Any ideas?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
there ya go, use the hot water one to heat water that is run through the
heater hoses from the ICE setup.
Jack
Danny Miller wrote:
RV's use one with a heat exchanger, usually referred to as a "propane
furnace" but the term's usage is not controlled.
Suburban Propane makes one which is very popular but it produces a lot
more than your need for a car. It has an electronic control board,
controls ignition and safety cycles. Fans take about 4 amps @ 12v when
the burner is on IIRC. However, in my experience it is unreasonably
touchy for the ignitor to actually get the mixture to ignite.
Another product that comes to mind in the Zodi "hot air machine",
another heat exchanger design. Zodi makes the propane instant hot water
heaters for camping. The hot air machine is supposed to heat a tent,
10,000 BTU, which sounds comparable to heating a car. There are 2 hoses
which handle the room air in/out and the combustion airflow is
uncontained (kept outside the tent). It's got no "smart" control board
though, you turn on the gas and light it manually.
http://www.zodi.com/web-content/Consumer/zodihotvent.html
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 29 Oct 2006 at 13:26, Jack Murray wrote:
maybe a propane camping heater would be approriate for very cold
driving conditions.
Only if they are direct-vented to outside. The old Citicars came with
ventless propane heaters. Though I never used one, I read that when
you turned them on, you had instant fog on the windows.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about a Toyota Echo?
Low Cd, (.29), low weight (2050) and it's easy and cheap to upgrade the
suspension with Scion xB components ( people upgrade the Xb a lot, so there
are used XB parts cheap on Ebay)
phil
From: Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: considering conversion cars
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:30:14 +0200
I am looking at either the Fiat Uno or the Suzuki Swift as conversion cars.
They have similar frontal area (1.58m x 1.35m vs 1.55m x 1.42m)
and weight (887kg vs. 845kg).
Does any one have any recommendations for better cheap/common cars for
conversion?
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't
Haifa 32000
Israel
972 4 8293669
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why couldn't you have it so that at full throttle a contactor made that
connected the entire 144 volt pack directly to the motor? Then you
could have the 72 volt side for low throttle driving but for high speed
driving the controller wouldn't be in the circuit.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:31
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
Steve Condie wrote:
> I asked Alltrax if I could do this a year or two ago. They said no,
> because the controller would "see" more than 72 volts.
There was a discussion on this a year or two ago on the EV list, and I
posted some schematics on how to do it. Basically, you can wire it so
the controller never "sees" more than 72v, yet have a 144v pack. It uses
contactors to rearrange the circuit so the controller takes you from
0-72v, then you switch the contactors, and the controller takes you from
72-144v.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You see EV'ers building ICE pusher trailers to extend their range. What
about the other way around? You take a rear end and differential, hack
on a motor batteries and controller, and hitch it up to whatever car you
want.
I know the idea has been discussed here - has anyone done it?
You'd have to add a control module in the cab, but the mods to the car
would be minimal.
There would be some safety measures needed at the trailer: A remote
disconnect that can be actuated from the cab electrically, a fail-safe
controller that would de-energize the electric motor in case of a failed
cable. Maybe de-energize the motor on application of towing vehicle
brakes.
Adding a second foot-feed to operate the trailer might not be easy in
some cars. A hand operated throttle seems tricky. Possibly arrange it
to disconnect the EV motor if the brakes are applied?
In the full blown EV, if you exceed your range, you are in for the
hassle of a tow or a night long charging cycle at the side of the road
with some buddy's ICE and an inverter. But with an EV pusher, if you
run out of juice you just shut it off and tow it home.
The idea is to achieve more electric percentage than a conventional
hybrid, say 75% of your motor power at highway speeds, without buying a
donor vehicle or going through the more difficult process of converting
a donor vehicle. Gets you 75% of the way to the goal, and when you want
to visit the relatives in Tumwater, you can just unhitch the EV trailer
and away you go.
Lawrence Lile
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Sunrise: Midnight
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 02:07:15 -0500
>On 29 Oct 2006 at 0:35, Lee Hart wrote:
>
>> - Same all-composite chassis and body, but rely more on
>> conventional fiberglass than on carbon fiber.
>
>Presumably this is to reduce cost.
While CF has some good points, in this kind of
vehicle, it just doesn't make sense as for a 15% weight
advantage of just the body/chassis, a good CF body would
have, it is both hard to manufacture and 10 X's the price
for the same strength.
>
>Curiously, you say "same ... body," but then you go on to
>describe extensive alterations to the body design (see
>below).
>
>> - Replace the light-but-weak Geo Metro McPherson strut
>> front suspension with Mustang II A-arm suspension,
>> which is widely available in the kit car market.
>
>Are you sure it's readily available? The Mustang II has
>been out of production for a very long time now.
Yes, completely new suspensions, front and rear from
aftermarket people from many companies are available at
reasonable prices.
>> - Change to rear wheel drive. Essentially all high
>> performance sports cars and sedans are rear wheel
>> drive. It is much easier to get strong rear
>differentials in any desired ratio, enabling extremely fast
>accelleration.
>
>But the Sunrise was developed as a family car, not a sports
>car. There are other high performance EVs in the
>pipeline. Notice how Prius sales improved when it became
>a family car in its second generation.
In EV's one doesn't have to give up much for High
performance. It doesn't change it's good sedan elemments. It
should be a much safer, better braking, handling EV with
these new suspension parts, rear drive, power.
>> - A large, quick-change battery pack. The central
>> tunnel is enlarged slightly, to 124"l x 12"h x 14.5"w
>> to allow any battery type up to 24 6v T-145's. The
>> pack slides out the front, complete with bumper and
>front "clip".
>
>Excellent idea, but it seems to me that it could slide out
>the back just as easily if the vehicle were front-drive.
But in the front, you have a bigger trunk!! Also the
way it's designed, it's easier out the front in redoing the
mold as the front bumper area has to be redone anyway.
>
>> - Rather than a single one-piece nonrepairable body,
>> the front and rear are replaceable "clips" to make
>> crash testing and repairs easier.
>
>I'd think you'd increase mass significantly by doing this.
>But I'm no expert.
Normally you would be right but as the Sunrise was
made with high production, double sided RTM molds, it weighs
at least 25% heavier than it would in a good hand layup in
FG. Which kind of blew the CF weight advantage as it can be
made as Lee wants with FG/Kevlar/various cores at lower
weight at equal/more strength than the present factory
body/chassis we have.
I agree though it shound be 1 piece, but each way
has their good points and the weight penalty is under 100
lbs compared to a CF one done correctly.
>
>> - The design will be modular (like a modern PC), so
>> that builders can use a wide range of motors,
>> controllers, and batteries. You can build it for low
>cost or luxury, efficiency or performance, AC or DC,
>> lead-acids or lithiums, etc.
>
>This is definitely the way to go.
I agree too.
>
>Overall, I think you have some outstanding ideas, but I
>also think that the resulting vehicle will be a Sunrise in
>appearance only. You are changing some very fundamental
>aspects of the car's design. It remains to be seen how
>much of the car's almost legendary efficiency will be lost
>(or improved!) by these changes.
While it won't be the same, it will be easily better
in many ways and will be more eff for those going that
route. I'd go twin series motors, a TSE600 2 motor, field
weakening capable, 96v/600 amp controller, 96vdc pack of
T125's/145's for reasonably good performance at a low cost.
Though by the time I get my body/chassis, I may have my own
more eff BLDC motor/controller.
Add a 3cyl Geo motor without transmission for direct
high speed drive and generator when nessasary. As the
battery pack would get you over 100 mile range, the gen will
rarely be needed. But if used, this combo should get over
100mpg that way, not including the extra mileage from the
batteries, so one a say 200 mile drive, you could do that at
200mpg ;^D
>
>I also wonder whether you won't obviate the prototype crash
>testing, so that retesting becomes necessary should you
>ever reach the assembled-unit sales stage.
All that data, lay up schedules, ect are gone, thrown
away long before their sale to Azure. We have more data
than anyone. So retesting would still be needed. Amazingly
the Sunrise has stock airbags, one of the early cars to use
them.
Jerry Dycus
>
>
>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EV List Assistant Administrator
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
>you're on vacation, or switch to digest mode? See how:
>http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to
>"evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send
>a private message, please obtain my email address from the
>webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = =
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I have to take the same attitude I take with all of my purchasing. I will
always give
priority to a local person over a chain. I will also give priority to products
made domestically
as opposed to overseas. And I religiously avoid basing my buying decisions on
price. Too often
people assume the only cost for a product is what you pay at the cash register.
I tend to take a
longer term view to buying.
I recently attended an auction for a local factory that closed down. They made
very good products
with a long history in their town. It was depressing to see how many jobs were
lost, families
affected. The whole town was hurt. This place produced good quality furniture
for a reasonable
(not cheap) price. But now people are willing to buy cardboard furniture
because it seem's a
little cheaper. Quality wise it's much cheaper. Instead of stretching to buy
good furniture that
will last, people are overpaying for very low quality furniture that they'll
replace far too soon.
But the cost is another factor. Taxes will go up to compensate for jobless or
lower earning
families. School funding get's cut with less money to go around. Less kids can
afford college, and
they will continue the decline because they will get lower paying jobs.
I'm not averse to spending money for good products. I've spent over $5000 with
three vendors who
are active participants on this list. If the right product comes from overseas,
I'll buy it. Our
government (sorry Dave) won't support the right technological development. If
another will, their
industry will benefit and our will suffer. It's looks like China will be the
world supplier of
Lithium battery technology. Good for them. But Otmar and Rich are still my
vendors of choice and
I'll continue to support them with my money.
</Rant>
Dave Cover
PS Mark, I'm not directing anything specifically towards you, I'm just adding
to the thread. Sorry
if comes off wrong.
--- Mark Grasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wish I had the time to be on the list more often.
>
> I too have my problems with manufacturing in Asia, as stated in my last
> post, but Asia IS coming of age and WILL be a large factor in the coming
> years. You might want to ignore them but in the end they will be here.
>
> Another way to look at the whole "slave labor" thing is that what we are
> doing is HELPING the poor people of third world countries to get out of
> poverty.
>
> Mark Grasser
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure,
but the motor trying to go positive is clamped by the diode,
as always in this style of controller.
You do not WANT the motor voltage to swing to the other side,
because that WILL reduce motor current fast.
Clamping the motor voltage to zero volts (normally; here
the clamping to keep 48V on the motor at all times is an
exception) will avoid that the current changes for a while,
so the current will simply continue to flow - this is the
whole basis for the current multiplication: motor current
without battery current.
The motor current will decrease due to resistance in the
path (motor; cabling; diode) as well as the diode forward
voltage drop: the motor voltage will swing a little bit to
the opposite side, by about 1.5V for a good diode.
In the "Turbo" case as presented here, the motor will
swing from 96V (actually 94V with drop in Q1) to 46V
(assuming 2V drop in D1) when the transistor shuts off.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cory Cross
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>Yes, but in order for the motor to draw the same current, it needs to keep
>the voltage near 96V to overcome BEMF. This means that the inductive
>'kick' gets added to the battery voltage and the diode /sees/ 96V, at
>least that's the way it looks to me.
>
>Unless you're saying that this setup somehow eliminates the inductive kick?
>
>
Referencing the schematic, the bottom of the motor tries to go positive
when the MOSFET turns off. The inductive kick only can hurt the MOSFET
in this style of buck converter.
Cory Cross
>
>
>>>> _____________________________________
>>>> | | _|_
>>>> __|__ + | / \ armature
>>>> ___ 48v / S1b \___/
>>>> | - | _________ | series
>>>> |____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
>>>> | S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
>>>> | | | D1 /_\ | _| field
>>>> | __|__ + | |___|_____|
>>>> / S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
>>>> | | - | -||_ Q1 |
>>>> | | | | | |
>>>> |__________|____________|_____| | Controller
>>>> B-|_________|
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob, Lee, Dave and All,
Welcome back to the e mail world Bob!!
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Sunrise: Midnight
>
>
>> Lee
>>
>> If you're thinking of ramping up to production levels,
>have you started a list of possible
>> regional dealers?
It's going to be a while before either the Sunrise
of Freedom EV will need dealers. In fact, I won't do
dealers, but instead have small, local factories, locally
owned to build the Freedom EV and let them go on from their,
with their own EV's or my future 2 and 4wheel EV/sometimes
hybrid designs. This I hope to unleash many EV builders of
built as EV's, of which some will survive long term.
But done correctly, there is a large profit in
building low unit, composite, EV's I've found out, higher
margins than most businesses even. It uses the FG
boatbuilding low unit production model that keeps costs low,
flexable.
I'm not physiclly able to do production either. I'll
just design, do start ups, get the production line running
smoothly and let others do the real mass production.
The East Coast has been somewhat under
>represented. I'm sure Bob has brought
>> this up already, but I think Connecticut would make an
>excellent location for a dealership. We
>> could offer the full size Sunrise II (name?) and Jerry's
>commuter car. Ship us the rolling
>> chassis, we build it to buyers spec and train the user to
>plug in an extension cord. Local sales,
>> service, etc. etc.
There is a Freedom EV factory already slated for Ct
if you can get the Laws not allowing them changed.
I think they will once we tell thm we will build them
in their state, increasing jobs they need. There are several
others interested in factories also. But first we have to
get it finished, debugged, ect, other factories are a ways
off.
>>
>> Bob, when are you back in town? I'm 90% of the way to my
>first EV grin, but I won't have the range
>> to make it to Killingly right away. But soon....
>>
>> Dave Cover
>> Hi Dave an' EVerybody;
>
> I'm baaaaack! At last, got in yesterday Am, exhausted
>after a loooong drive from Chicago in the driving(not)
>rain. Preii DO work underwater!
Glad you made it home safe. I hate it when you run
into bad traveling weather.
Lee has covered alot of the
>New Sunrise Project, I'll fill in a bit, to, as I recover
>from mountains of Snail mail and E mails.it was fun being
>with lee, driving to FLA and Minnesota. That's a long damn
>way!Hope I didn't drive Lee nuts with my simplistic
>controller ideas. Well, I learned that doing Solid State
>controllers isn't easy!
Lee does have a lot of things to teach. I learned a
lot while you 2 were down.
> You don't hafta make it to Killingly. Killingworth is
>closer, and downhill for you, north to south! Maybe to the
>next Club meeting? Got a Bad Boy I charge Bill Glickman's
>VW so there is juice for EVerybody.Between the Freedom EV
>and the Sunrise Project I see heartwarming progress for our
>EV's. Looks like Jerry will have a Roll Out for Battery
>Beach Burnout?
Easily. Maybe have it ready to drag race. ;^D
Can't wait to do the Auto-cross course they have too!
Jerry Dycus
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can get a student version of Electronics workbench or Circuitmaker
for about $65. Just go to any college bookstore. If you aren't a
student you can give money TO a student and get them to buy it for you.
The software is limited in what it can do but for most people it is very
capable for experimenting.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chet Fields
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 15:04
To: EV List
Subject: Electronic Circuit Design and Simulation Software
Hello all,
All this discussion about building your own controllers and chargers,
etc. has me wanting to try and build something myself even if it is for
nothing more than to have more appreciation for those that are really
doing it.
I was hoping I could get some recommendations on relatively inexpensive
(not completely professional) yet decent (feature rich and easy to use)
circuit design and simulation software. I have done a little searching
and found some free and shareware stuff and other demo software.
However, the shareware stuff is just too complicated to compile and
setup and the software for the demo versions is a little expensive. I
would like something like the Electronic Workbench from a company in
Canada but maybe not so feature rich. I'd be willing to pay up to about
$100.
I'm not really interested (at least not yet) in PCB layout and such.
Just CAD and perhaps a little simulation and testing.
Regards,
Chet
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Yes, but then D1 sees a voltage fluctuating between 48V and 96V.
Assuming it's rated for less than 96V, won't it blow?.
_____________________________________
| | _|_
__|__ + | / \ armature
___ 48v / S1b \___/
| - | _________ | series
|____/_____|____________|_____ | |_ motor
| S2 | B+| _|_ | _|
| | | D1 /_\ | _| field
| __|__ + | |___|_____|
/ S1a ___ 48v | |_| |M-
| | - | -||_ Q1 |
| | | | | |
|__________|____________|_____| | Controller
B-|_________|
No. Look closely. The cathode of D1 is always at 48v. The anode of D1 is
either at 0v (when Q1 is on), or 1 volt above B+ (when Q1 is off).
Therefore, the voltage across D1 alternates between -48v and +1v. This
is exactly what it would see in normal use with a single 48v pack.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
That what it looks to me, instead of blowing the fet, you blow the diode.
Also, through D1 is now the full motor current as well, rather than just
a short inductive kick when Q1 closes, so that path will probably burn up.
The freewheel diode in a motor controller carries the full motor current
for the entire off-time of the transistor. For example, if the
controller is delivering 400 amps to the motor at 10% on-time, Q1
carries 400 amps for 10% of the time, and D1 carries 400 amps for 90% of
the time (i.e. almost continuously).
This circuit's current and voltage stress on Q1 and D1 are virtually
identical to that of a standard 48v setup. The only differences are the
ones I described in my original post -- that in the 96v range, the
controller's current limit doesn't work and that the upper half of the
pack discharges faster. Both of these can be dealt with.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have numerous scooters with chinese controllers. But that is where the
market is. They have brake/motor disconnects for safety. You can't operate
the brakes without cutting off power to the controller. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:32 PM
Subject: Hello WORLD! was Re: I can build your controller
> >
> > I wonder if there are any Chinese members on this list?
> >
> > Osmo Sarin
> > Finland
> > Europe
> >
> > Hi Osmo;
>
> I have asked before now an' again on the List as to any Chinese EV
Folks
> on the List. So far no answer. But you are right this is an International
> List. I welcome ANYONE on the planet to join in. So here goes;
>
> HEY! CHINA!? Come out of hiding, say Hello! We're here for the
betterment
> of the World, through our EV's. So chime in here. Don't be shy! This goes
> for Russia, Iran, Iraq, North, an' South Korea. We are family, dispite our
> governments and religions.
>
> Yours,for a EV peaceful world.
>
> Bob
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
10/27/06
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all who expressed interest and especially to those who made the
effort to purchase. All the NiFe batteries have now been sold.
Jeff Major
---------------------------------
Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
done faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think this can also be a sign of a broken E-meter. Mine has been doing
this since I first got it. It does it even if I directly short the pins at
the emeter that measure the shunt voltage. So it could be wiring or you
could be SOL like me :-(
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], EVDL <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: [uselectricar] Emeter wierdness
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 23:59:39 -0700
Mike,
This means that the offset in your meter has become
larger than the values that it normally sees but ignores.
Either it has drifted too much, or the cables connecting
to the shunt have a bit of a galvanic reaction and with
usually 50 mV full scale, you only need tenths of millivolts
to get the Emeter to start counting....
You may want to check your cabling, if you have a
sensitive voltmeter you could check directly on the shunt
and then the cabling near the shunt and near the emeter
to see if it picks up anything in transitioning between.
different materials.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
<http://www.cvandewater.com/>
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com <http://www.proxim.com/>
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:14 PM
To: EVDL; US Electricar
Subject: [uselectricar] Emeter wierdness
Speaking of Emeters. I don't remember my meter doing this before. When
the truck is off the emeter shows about +.5 or +.6 amps. So when it
sits for a while the Ah's merrily count upward. Any ideas?
Mike
__._,_.___
Messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/message/1627;_ylc=X3oDMTM1cG82dG
ZjBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRtc2dJZAMxNj
I3BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTE2MjEwMjQyNgR0cGNJZAMxNjI3> in this
topic (1)
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxanNvMm5nBF9TAz
k3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRtc2dJZAMxNjI3BHNlYw
NmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTE2MjEwMjQyNg--?act=reply&messageNum=1627> Reply
(via web post) | Start
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbTNrZzJ1BF9TAz
k3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNudH
BjBHN0aW1lAzExNjIxMDI0MjY-> a new topic
Messages
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdTg3ZnJmBF
9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsaw
Ntc2dzBHN0aW1lAzExNjIxMDI0MjY-> | Files
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/files;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNHUzc3U3BF9TA
zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNma
WxlcwRzdGltZQMxMTYyMTAyNDI2> | Photos
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/photos;_ylc=X3oDMTJmbHFodW81BF9T
Azk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNw
aG90BHN0aW1lAzExNjIxMDI0MjY-> | Links
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/links;_ylc=X3oDMTJnZzBvcGhtBF9TA
zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNsa
W5rcwRzdGltZQMxMTYyMTAyNDI2> | Database
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/database;_ylc=X3oDMTJkbGJjMmVnBF
9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsaw
NkYgRzdGltZQMxMTYyMTAyNDI2> | Polls
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/polls;_ylc=X3oDMTJncGlrODg1BF9TA
zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNwb
2xscwRzdGltZQMxMTYyMTAyNDI2> | Members
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/members;_ylc=X3oDMTJmMDhza2FhBF9
TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawN
tYnJzBHN0aW1lAzExNjIxMDI0MjY-> | Calendar
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/calendar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlY2x2Y2ljBF
9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsaw
NjYWwEc3RpbWUDMTE2MjEwMjQyNg-->
<http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJlbzQ0ZTV2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3M
jU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNnZnAEc3RpbWUDMTE2MjEwMjQyN
g--> Yahoo! Groups
Change
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnNHB2ZXFhBF9TAz
k3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG
5ncwRzdGltZQMxMTYyMTAyNDI2> settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
Change settings via email: Switch
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivery: Digest>
delivery to Daily Digest | Switch
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivery
Format: Traditional> format to Traditional
Visit
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNnN1bmlyBF9TAzk3MzU
5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3R
pbWUDMTE2MjEwMjQyNg--> Your Group | Yahoo! Groups
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Recent Activity
*
2
New
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/spnew;_ylc=X3oDMTJnYTQwZmowBF9TA
zk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2c
GhvdARzdGltZQMxMTYyMTAyNDI2> Photos
Visit
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar;_ylc=X3oDMTJmdWxia283BF9TAzk3MzU
5NzE0BGdycElkAzE3MjU0NTI5BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTEyNjIxMgRzZWMDdnRsBHNsawN2Z2hwBHN
0aW1lAzExNjIxMDI0MjY-> Your Group
SPONSORED LINKS
* Alternative fuels
* Electric car motor
* Hybrid electric car
* Electric car
* Who killed the electric car
Yahoo! News
Adventure
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12hmchbdc/M=493064.8985662.9760764.8674578/D=gr
oups/S=1705126212:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1162109626/A=3848608/R=0/SIG=12tfavs0n/*htt
p://news.yahoo.com/i/703;_ylt=A9FJqaMFvq5EPlMBfBKPU80F;_ylu=X3oDMTA2NWJlcmls
BHNlYwN0bg--> Beat
Travel the world
with Richard Bangs
Ads on Yahoo!
Learn
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12h1191gc/M=493064.8985663.9760769.8674578/D=gr
oups/S=1705126212:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1162109626/A=3848643/R=0/SIG=131q47hek/*htt
p://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/arp/srchv2.php?o=US2005&cmp=Yahoo&ctv=Groups4&
s=Y&s2=&s3=&b=50> more now.
Reach customers
searching for you.
In Year 2020
Where
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=12ivavd11/M=493064.9470465.10199930.8674578/D=g
roups/S=1705126212:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1162109626/A=4044338/R=0/SIG=1204av64n/*ht
tp://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44841/*http://timecapsule.yahoo.com> Will You Be?
The Yahoo! Time
Capsule Project
.
<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=17254529/grpspId=1705126212/msgI
d=1627/stime=1162102426/nc1=3848608/nc2=3848643/nc3=4044338>
__,_._,___
_________________________________________________________________
Use your PC to make calls at very low rates
https://voiceoam.pcs.v2s.live.com/partnerredirect.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alternative DC motor controller for battery powered vehicles.
There has been much posted lately on the EVDL regarding alternative options
to the available DC motor controllers. One post concerned a mechanical device
resembling a commutator which could modulate voltage. I do not believe that
such devices by themselves could be developed successfully; however, when
coupled to an electromagnetic dynamo, possibilities do exist. I attempted to
express this in a response post where I gave a simplified explanation of the
Middlebrook Rotary Transformer (MRT). This drew no further discussion. The
MRT is fairly difficult to implement but relatively simple in concept. I have
noticed posts concerning movable brushes being implemented on traction motors,
but the MRT takes this to the extreme.
My experience with electromechanical voltage control devices did not stop
with the MRT. I worked on several others. One was the Triodyne. This device
was invented by Dr. Joe Tyrner, U.S. Patent 4,383,213. I worked with Dr.
Tyrner for several years and took the device through prototype, dynamometer
testing and finally, vehicle testing. It worked beautifully. It did not have
any movable parts like the MRT except for the rotating armature. From a
cursory look, it appeared that it was a motor which controlled the speed of
another motor. It was about two thirds the size of the controlled motor,
rotated at a more or less constant speed and could power auxiliary mechanical
loads which puts the rotational member to work and increases overall
efficiency. For the life of me, I still wonder why this great device was never
put to use. It just sits in the patent archives.
The Triodyne is a three pole DC dynamo. Seems counterintuitive in the world
of North and South pole pairs. It is basically a motor and a generator in the
same core. It has a motor pole, a generator pole and a common pole. The
armature has a simplex lap winding with a 120 degree pitch. It uses a standard
motor commutator and has three sets of brushes. One brush is connected to the
battery, one brush to the motor and the third brush to the other battery
terminal and other motor terminal. Then, by controlling a relatively small
field current (a few amps) in the Triodyne, you can control the motor voltage
and high armature current (hundreds of amps). Works like a charm.
To design and fabricate a Triodyne today would be a significant effort. I
would love to see someone do it. That is why I bothered to put it out here.
However, there is another electromechanical control device with which I was
involved that I believe could be a viable solution to the needs I see expressed
on this list. It is documented as Advanced DC Motor Controller for
Battery-Powered Electric Vehicles, NASA CR-165171, dated July, 1981. I was
able to find it on the NASA web site and it seems like it is available for
about $30. It does not exist in digital format. It would be great if someone
could digitize it and make it available for members to read. I think Jim H
would be particularly interested as the machine is pictured in the back and
looks remarkably like his Siamese motors.
One might say this is just a Ward Leonard system. However there is a twist.
The load motor is run in series with the generator. This has a dramatic effect
on the required size of the MG, making it much smaller (and less cost).
Another consequence is that the traction motor then runs at twice the battery
voltage. Kind of like the Prius. And again, one could take advantage of the
rotating controller by running accessories with it. Or, consider the shaft a
port, power in or power out. Meaning one could couple energy storage to it
(flywheel or accumulator) or couple it to a heat engine for a HEV.
I know this post will bring the wrath of those obsessed with efficiency or
component weight. The PWM controllers will be more efficient, less mass and
have other advantages over these rotary converters. However, I see the same
concerns expressed today as those which motivated us several decades ago. That
would be more problems with the controllers than with the motors. So why not
make the controller look like the motor? Then those who can manufacture the
motor can make the controller, using the same technology, facility, expertise,
tooling, etc. And you end up with a motor and controller which have similar
cost, reliability, durability and serviceability.
Rotary converters are not uncommon power converters. Many are used today,
such as DC to AC and AC to DC converters, frequency converters and phase
converters. The phase converter is a good example. Often small or remote
machine shops have machine tools and other equipment needing 3 phase power but
only have single phase delivered by the utility. Their solution is a phase
converter, which is an induction motor and capacitor bank configured to take a
single phase input and output 3 phase power. This task could be done with a
solid state PWM converter, but you dont see any of these, just the rotary
converters.
I dont really think that rotary converters will be the solution for mass
produced EVs, just like I do not think the commutator DC motor will be. But
the rotary converter is a viable approach for DC motor control.
I tell you these things not to boast, but to relate ideas I fear may become
lost. Many of those involved in the development of these devices several
decades are no longer around. Even if you would know what to look for, search
engines will not help. If this subject matter interests you, please obtain the
NASA document. It is only 91 pages and has many diagrams and charts. It is
also interesting in that the simulations were done on analog computer.
Jeff Major, Oct/2006
---------------------------------
Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
