EV Digest 6084
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Controllers, Option 5
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: The air car???
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The air car???
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: The air car???
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) BB600 Batteries
by "Daniel Eyk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BB600 Batteries
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) unsubscribe
by Lee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor Vibration
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: BB600 Batteries
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: The air car???
by Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Motor Vibration
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor Vibration
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The air car???
by "Christie Cooksey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Considering Conversion Cars
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: [BULK] Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ceramic fin repair
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: what are your top 3 motor controllers?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Lithium-ion batteries & Valence Group buy
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
PC traces aren't like fuses -- they don't have some critical current
that they carry indefinitely, and suddenly blow open if you slightly
exceed it.
Jim Walls wrote:
Got news for you, fuses don't do that either. If you look at the
actual specs on a fuse, there is a curve that shows how much time
it takes at a given current to blow.
I know; I was just trying to say that a fuse has clearly defined limits
for what they can carry, and when they blow. It's expressed as a set of
curves specifying what current it can carry for how long before it blows.
Lacking this data, the rule of thumb is that a fuse will carry LESS than
its rated current indefinitely, and will blow sooner or later if MORE
than its rated current flows. Right at the rated current, it is likely
to blow, but might take hours or months to do it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Dymaxion wrote:
Lee Hart had mentioned this some time back: A small electric motor drives a small
generator, which is used to drive just the field (I think he called it a
"tickler"). It makes more sense in this case, since the field on a sepex motor
just needs a few amps. I have considered doing this, it would be a fun retro way to
control a motor. Unfortunately, small motors tend to be less efficient, so a
semiconductor controller easily wins on efficiency.
It's called an "exciter". It's typically a small generator or alternator
that powers the field of a large motor. It's connected directly to the
shaft of the large motor.
Suppose you're trying to control a 100kw generator. The field power
needed is about 1% or that, or 1kw. That's still a lot of power to
manage with just a rheostat, for example. So, you attach a 1kw exciter
to the generator. The exciter can generate 1kw to power the field of the
large motor, and only needs 1% of that or 10 watts to control its field.
So, a tiny simple rheostat can control a huge 100kw generator.
This is simple old-school technology. But because it is so simple, it
lasts forever and is easy to fix if it ever breaks. There are lots of
50+ year old elevators, cranes, trains, aircraft, and other large
industrial motors still running with these systems.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, sorry to intrude, but "air cars" are not EVs, and thus are off-topic for
this list. The thread shouldn't have been started in the first place, and the
first response was the correct one - "see the archives," since it has been
discussed before (and was off-topic then).
Please take this discussion to private email. Those interested in air cars
might also consider joining the future-fuels-and-vehicles group at Yahoo :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/future-fuels-and-vehicles/
which is more general than this mailing list.
Thanks for your understanding.
David
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
IIRC from what I heard last time this topic came around, they were
actually not performing anywhere near as advertised.
Converting compressed air into shaft torque is not extremely efficient.
One serious problem is adiabatic cooling as the gas expands in the
chamber itself, which significantly reduces the pressure it creates. It
is difficult to keep an expansion chamber near ambient temp at
significant power levels. Note that even if you were to keep the walls
of the chamber at ambient temp, the gas will still be much cooler than
the ambient since there is only a limited capacity for the chamber
wall's heat to warm up the gas as it expands. Well, there are ways
around this like multiple expansion chambers with radiators to rewarm
the air but practicality factors may come into play.
I do recall doing some calcs on energy and the tanks would indeed need
to be huge. The air itself has inconsequential mass but the weight of a
container capable of holding it will be substantial. I saw a huge
safety issue with it. If you've ever seen pictures of what a ruptured
SCUBA tank can do, it's terrifying. A SCUBA tank is under 1/2 a cu ft
and can completely destroy a vehicle or small building, and that's only
at 3000 psi. HowStuffWorks said one mfg designed for 4300 psi. This
involves tanks holding may times more energy, and the tank is subject to
far greater stresses in a driving environment. It seems like even a
minor collision could easily breech a large tank. A rupture of such a
large tank should be able to distintegrate a vehicle, throw shrapnel, or
propel the whole vehicle like a rocket with great acceleration.
Basically it could be a bomb on wheels.
OK, don't get me wrong. I think it's a great idea and certainly will
have some neat applications. I just think its claims of mileage are
probably totally unrealistic for consumer motor vehicle use, and the
practical issues like safety issues may be unresolvable for consumer usage.
Danny
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
I don't think they are having trouble with the heating of the air since
the cars are working perfectly as advertised. They charge faster than
electric and can definitely run longer on a charge. They are lighter
and you can repeatedly charge and discharge them without worry of
hurting your pack. I think this is a great technology and can
definitely improve from here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Folks, sorry to intrude, but "air cars" are not EVs, and thus are
> off-topic for this list.
Damn...with the increasing amount of hot air coming from pundits and
politicians, I think we have a great renewable resource here...but alas, not
an EV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard that there is a discussion group or something like that
where one can learn more about these batteries. I have asked how to
find it before and never found out anything. Can someone direct me to a
website or group where I can check posts and learn about using these
batteries? I tried doing a google search and came up with a few entries
about people who have used them and the same with a Yahoo groups search
and came up with nothing. Thanks for any help. Dan Eyk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:29 AM 10/31/2006, Daniel Eyk wrote:
I have heard that there is a discussion group or something like that
where one can learn more about these batteries. I have asked how to
find it before and never found out anything. Can someone direct me to a
website or group where I can check posts and learn about using these
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there other people interested in a Valence group buy? The rep told me
of about 40 to 50% discount with high volume.
JJ
> On 8 Oct 2006 at 11:29, GWMobile wrote:
>
>> I encourage to actual get the batteries you want from the start and
>> not listen to those who say start with what you don't want and
>> upgrade later.
>
> I was going through some old unread messages and I came across this
> note. It may be that this has already been addressed; if so disregard
> this.
>
> I think the above advice is inappropriate for new EV hobbyists, unless
> "the batteries you want" are either very sturdy and economical (such as
> golf car batteries), or else the battery love of your life is a
> complete system with charger and BMS (and preferably an integrated
> controller or at least a cooperative one too). There are very few such
> integrated systems, though my impression is that the Valence comes
> pretty close (at a substantial price).
>
> There's a certain amount of skill and art to battery maintenance. It's
> a great tradition for beginning EVers to destroy their first batteries
> in the process of learning these skills. Do you want to kill a $1500
> pack, or a $15,000 one?
>
>>
>> One thing you can also remember is you can buy a 5500 watt gas
>> generator on wheels at pep boys for about $300. With a trailer hitch
>> you would have unlimited mileage in your electric for longer trips.
>
> Three problems, in random order (you decide what the order of importance
> is to you) :
>
> 1. You'll be polluting to a gross degree, probably on the order of
> HUNDREDS of times as much as your ICE. You will also burn more fuel
> than you would in the ICE.
>
> 2. Unless you have a very light, efficient EV, a 5kW genset won't keep
> you going down the road at highway speeds. Most conversions need
> 12-15kW to maintain 55-60 mph.
>
> 3. The cheap gensets I've seen at the dollar stores at about this price
> appear to be crude and poorly made. They're apt to be barely adequate
> for use a few times a year. Use one of these, and you're likely to
> drop your car's reliability to about that of a Model T. Better make
> sure your road service card is paid up.
>
> It's possible to build a somewhat clean, somewhat efficient, reasonably
> reliable series hybrid (though it will almost impossible for a
> homebuilder to make one as clean, efficient, or reliable as a factory
> ICE, let alone a factory hybrid). But it is a lot of work, and the
> result won't look anything like these cheap portable gensets. If
> you're considering running your EV with a portable genset, please do
> our lungs (and yourself) a favor and don't bother with the EV, just
> keep driving your ICE.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
UNSUBSCRIBE EV Lee Lazon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If your flywheel is off center by 0.015 inch, it can cause about 300 lbs of
vibration force! It sounds like you measured runout in the axial direction.
You'll also want to do the radial direction (dial indicator on the outer rim of
the flywheel).
Some runout isn't surprising. A tiny variation in the hub gets amplified by the
flywheel since it is so much bigger.
A smaller and/or lighter flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch helps.
In addition to the other good suggestions, I think the best way to center a
flywheel is the way Steve Clunn illustrates in his videos.
http://www.grassrootsev.com . Basically, you put the hub on the motor, put the
motor up on a machine, spin the hub via the eletric motor, and machine it flat
and concentric. This way you can get it square to the axis of rotation very
accurately.
If your flywheel is a precision fit to the hub, machining it down might make it
loose fit thereby destroying the accuracy. In this case you'd have to weld some
metal onto the hub, and then machine it down to concentric and a perfect fit.
I did this on my motor. I forget the exact numbers, but it went from something
like 0.007 to 0.002 inches off. It spins up smoothly.
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 11:03:26 PM
Subject: Motor Vibration
I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
have a new pressure plate and clutch.
Recently I put my dial indicator on the face of the flywheel. The
runout was about .015". No matter what I do, and how I try and get
the taper lock and flywheel installed, I can not get rid of this. If
I rotate the flywheel on the taper lock (bolt in on differently), the
high and low readings always stay with the taper lock and shaft of the
motor, so I assume that the flywheel is true, and the error is with
the taper lock or motor shaft.
I then took the flywheel and taper lock off and put the dial indicator
directly on the motor shaft.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/284377471/
and read a .001" wobble in the shaft.
So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
potential for error in my measurements?
Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
Chris Sutton
Seattle, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is a link I found, hope it is useful
JJ
<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/
<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional
<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/join
(Yahoo! ID required)
<*> To change settings via email:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
> I have heard that there is a discussion group or something like that
> where one can learn more about these batteries. I have asked how to
> find it before and never found out anything. Can someone direct me to a
> website or group where I can check posts and learn about using these
> batteries? I tried doing a google search and came up with a few entries
> about people who have used them and the same with a Yahoo groups search
> and came up with nothing. Thanks for any help. Dan Eyk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There is a trick used in cheap electronics, of using a specially
> calibrated thin section of PC trace as a fuse.
>Yes, it is all too common. And, it works badly. And when it does blow,
it can arc or set fire to the
PC board or nearby parts, eject conductive bits into surrounding
circuitry, and in general make the board unrepairable.
That is why it is so much fun to watch! With proper safety equipment of
course.
We were designing these crude "fuses" into US$0.38 toaster controls.
When they blow, they eject not only conductive bits, but for a moment a
cloud of gaseous copper ions. This would often short across another
part of the circuit long enough to cause an AC line fault. We had to
carefully surround these "fuses" (should we have called them IED's?)
with nonconductive material to prevent this from "foiling" the test.
<ouch. Pun intended>
None of this, of course, is germane to EV's, which need real fuses, real
circuit breakers, and Anderson disconnects. To bring the discussion
back On Topic, I've heard people recommend a fuse AND a circuit breaker
in a battery circuit. In addition to a middle-of-pack disconnect with a
big red button on it. Opinions?
--Lawrence Lile
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But how much power (at the plug) does it take to go a mile? More or less than
an EV? More or less (equivalent) than a gasoline car?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 11:42 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: The air car???
I don't think they are having trouble with the heating of the air since
the cars are working perfectly as advertised. They charge faster than
electric and can definitely run longer on a charge. They are lighter
and you can repeatedly charge and discharge them without worry of
hurting your pack. I think this is a great technology and can
definitely improve from here.
---------------------------------
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you really want to minimize vibration, you should balance the flywheel
and clutch together when mounted on the motor. Assemble everything on the
motor shaft, torque the taper lock screws, and spin up the motor.
You can add or subtract washers ( and thin washer-shaped shims when you get
closer) under the clutch cover mounting screws to balance the whole
assembly.. It takes a while to do it (trial and error) but you will
eventually get it balanced as well as you want.
After an hour of doing this, the vibration of my motor/flywheel/clutch - at
4000 RPM - was about the same as my microwave oven - barely noticeable.
This is based on resting a hand on the motor at speed,
Phil
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Motor Vibration
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 12:26:40 -0500
At least if you have them all on the same machine to balance it you can
adjust it until there is zero runout and have them balance it. When you
put it back on the vehicle there should be no question it will run
correctly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Sutton
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 11:44
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor Vibration
I already took my flywheel in and had them "zero balance" it. I
explained it was in an EV, and they understood. So I think I have this
covered, except it might be worth doing the taper lock, flywheel,
pressure plate, and clutch as David pointed out.
On 10/31/06, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think it is the other way around Roland. My 400 cu Chevy is an
> external balance motor so my flywheel has a large weight at the bottom
> for that. My harmonic balancer also has a large weight at the bottom.
> An internal balance motor can use neutral balance flywheels and
> harmonic balancers.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 8:49
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Motor Vibration
>
> Hello Chris,
>
> If you are using a flywheel and clutch set up that is design for a
> existing vehicle, make sure it's a external balance type instead of a
> internal balance.
>
> The internal balance flywheels are use to balance a engine, while the
> external balance ones are balance in it self.
>
> Also, when install a bell housing to the adapter plate, use the guide
> pins that insert into bell housing flange and adapter plate. This
> keeps the transmission input shaft center line to the axles of the
> output motor shaft.
>
> If the guide pins do not fit tight, then pick up some over size pins.
>
> The bell housing bolts in them self, will not give you good alignment.
> If you do not have the alignment pins install, then next thing to do,
> is to scribed a reference line at the bottom of bell housing flange
> where it mates to the adapter plate.
>
> Then loosen the bell housing bolts a bit and if the bell housing
> reference mark has not move, then your bell housing is resting either
> on the pins or bolts.
>
> Then place a jack under the bell housing flange and see if it will
> move up a
> bit, if it does, than place another scribe mark. Leave it all the
way
> up
> and tighten up the bolts and see if you still have the vibration. If
> you do, than try dropping it down a bit and try again.
>
> For good alignment, the transmission input shaft to the motor shaft,
> should at least be 0.001 inch in alignment.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 11:03 PM
> Subject: Motor Vibration
>
>
> > I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> > is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
> > and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
> > have a new pressure plate and clutch.
> >
> > Recently I put my dial indicator on the face of the flywheel. The
> > runout was about .015". No matter what I do, and how I try and get
> > the taper lock and flywheel installed, I can not get rid of this.
> > If I rotate the flywheel on the taper lock (bolt in on differently),
> > the high and low readings always stay with the taper lock and shaft
> > of the motor, so I assume that the flywheel is true, and the error
> > is with the taper lock or motor shaft.
> >
> > I then took the flywheel and taper lock off and put the dial
> > indicator directly on the motor shaft.
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/284377471/
> >
> > and read a .001" wobble in the shaft.
> >
> > So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
> > potential for error in my measurements?
> >
> > Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
> >
> > Chris Sutton
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> >
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Oct 31, 2006, at 6:56 AM, David Brandt wrote:
Also, I believe others on the list prefer to balance the
motor/hub/flywheel/clutch assembly while it is completely assembled as
a unit rather than before adding the clutch assembly.
That's what I did. In my own garage!
First I assembled the 8in ADC motor, hub, flywheel, and clutch pressure
plate. Then I strapped the motor down to my workbench and spun it up
with a 12v power supply (an old dumb battery charger I had lying
around).
If it vibrated I loosened the clutch pressure plate and tapped on it
with a rubber mallet to move it, tightened it down, then spun it up
again. Eventually I got it "close enough".
Obviously it's tricky to figure out which side is too heavy when it's
spinning. A trick I used was to bring a Sharpie felt-tip pen close to
the outside edge of the flywheel, until it's just touching the
flywheel's high point. This makes marks on the "high" spot, which is
the side of the flywheel that has too much weight. Tap the clutch
pressure plate away from this spot.
If you do this too many times you'll be unable to tell your most recent
marks from older ones, so you can use different Sharpie colors or try
removing the ink with a solvent. Or put tape around the edge of the
flywheel.
After I'd done this I read someone else on the list was putting washers
under the pressure plate bolts to balance the flywheel. Keep
moving/adding washers until the vibration goes away. This sounds like
a quicker method.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Lile wrote [on using a piece of copper foil as a fuse]:
That is why it is so much fun to watch! With proper safety equipment
of course.
Oh, yes! In fact, one of the "fun" mad science experiments is to use a
short thin strand of copper wire as a "fuse" across the AC power line,
or to discharge a large capacitor. The resulting BANG is about as
powerful and destructive as a firecracker!
We were designing these crude "fuses" into US$0.38 toaster controls.
When they blow, they eject not only conductive bits, but for a moment a
cloud of gaseous copper ions. This would often short across another
part of the circuit long enough to cause an AC line fault.
Yep. Been there, done that. I've worked as a design engineer for Kodak,
Robertshaw, and Honeywell. All had "bean counters" that wanted to save
money by replacing expensive fuses with copper wire at various times.
Many of these resulted in various disasters that caused them to go back
to real fuses.
To bring the discussion back On Topic, I've heard people recommend a
fuse AND a circuit breaker in a battery circuit. In addition to a
middle-of-pack disconnect with a big red button on it. Opinions?
Rarely do you need both a fuse and a circuit breaker in the *same*
circuit. But there are instances where both can be at different places
in the same series loop.
For example, you might have a fuse in each battery box, so a short in
the wires coming from that box will blow it. And, a circuit breaker up
front so you can switch off the power for servicing or when the car is
going to be idle a long time.
The "big red button" is usually a manual switch, used instead of a
circuit breaker when you need a manual way to switch things off.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
> I wonder if there is a good way to store the heat created by compression
> and add it back to the air to keep in warm during decompression to
> minimize the pressure drop created by the cooling of the air?
-----------------------------
If you read this page:
http://www.theaircar.com/thecar.html
it says that the exhaust is used for air conditioning...
Cheers
Christie :0)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am and have posted several times the information from Valence.
Don
In a message dated 10/31/2006 12:10:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Are there other people interested in a Valence group buy? The rep told me
of about 40 to 50% discount with high volume.
JJ
> On 8 Oct 2006 at 11:29, GWMobile wrote:
>
>> I encourage to actual get the batteries you want from the start and
>> not listen to those who say start with what you don't want and
>> upgrade later.
>
> I was going through some old unread messages and I came across this
> note. It may be that this has already been addressed; if so disregard
> this.
>
> I think the above advice is inappropriate for new EV hobbyists, unless
> "the batteries you want" are either very sturdy and economical (such as
> golf car batteries), or else the battery love of your life is a
> complete system with charger and BMS (and preferably an integrated
> controller or at least a cooperative one too). There are very few such
> integrated systems, though my impression is that the Valence comes
> pretty close (at a substantial price).
>
> There's a certain amount of skill and art to battery maintenance. It's
> a great tradition for beginning EVers to destroy their first batteries
> in the process of learning these skills. Do you want to kill a $1500
> pack, or a $15,000 one?
>
>>
>> One thing you can also remember is you can buy a 5500 watt gas
>> generator on wheels at pep boys for about $300. With a trailer hitch
>> you would have unlimited mileage in your electric for longer trips.
>
> Three problems, in random order (you decide what the order of importance
> is to you) :
>
> 1. You'll be polluting to a gross degree, probably on the order of
> HUNDREDS of times as much as your ICE. You will also burn more fuel
> than you would in the ICE.
>
> 2. Unless you have a very light, efficient EV, a 5kW genset won't keep
> you going down the road at highway speeds. Most conversions need
> 12-15kW to maintain 55-60 mph.
>
> 3. The cheap gensets I've seen at the dollar stores at about this price
> appear to be crude and poorly made. They're apt to be barely adequate
> for use a few times a year. Use one of these, and you're likely to
> drop your car's reliability to about that of a Model T. Better make
> sure your road service card is paid up.
>
> It's possible to build a somewhat clean, somewhat efficient, reasonably
> reliable series hybrid (though it will almost impossible for a
> homebuilder to make one as clean, efficient, or reliable as a factory
> ICE, let alone a factory hybrid). But it is a lot of work, and the
> result won't look anything like these cheap portable gensets. If
> you're considering running your EV with a portable genset, please do
> our lungs (and yourself) a favor and don't bother with the EV, just
> keep driving your ICE.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note:
> mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send
> a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most people rebuild the frame by welding steel on the rockers and
central tunnel.
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 11:02 am, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
The Porsche 914 is a unibody vehicle and like all unibodies does not
have
a frame. Unlike most unibodies, the 914 also doesn't have a structural
roof.
The 914 gets it's support from the central tunnel and the rocker
panels.
If it has rusted so bad that it has folded, then the rust is pretty bad
and is probably bad throughout the whole vehicle.
I'd seriously consider looking for another doner rather than trying to
rebuild that one. The cost of a good body will probably be less than
repairing that one. You can recover some of the cost you already have
in
the vehicle by using it for parts for the next or simply parting it
out.
Hi,
I just bought a Porsche 914 1974' and I have to install a frame since
it
folded in half due to age/rust and poor design. Apparently this
vehicle
never came with a frame so one has to be installed; I got from
reinforcement
specialties and a MIG welder from Northern Tool. (Harbor Frieght has
a
cheaper one but looks cheaper :-)
the VW adapter bolted up with the bug singlelywheel (the Porsche has 5
bolts
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:13 PM 10/31/2006, you wrote:
Lawrence Lile wrote [on using a piece of copper foil as a fuse]:
That is why it is so much fun to watch! With proper safety equipment
of course.
Oh, yes! In fact, one of the "fun" mad science experiments is to use a
short thin strand of copper wire as a "fuse" across the AC power line, or
to discharge a large capacitor. The resulting BANG is about as powerful
and destructive as a firecracker!
Kind of like this.
http://web.mit.edu/Edgerton/www/ExplodingWire.html
Being MIT you would hope they will some day see the error in the line.
"nichrome wire with a cold resistance of 3 W."
They do have some practical uses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploding-bridgewire_detonator
At least if you find A-bombs practical.
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My opinion? It's better to have the big red button trip your main circuit
breaker instead of your mid-pack one. Seriously - why skimp on a thing like
ability to cut your circuit if things go south? In my truck I had a fuse and 2
circuit breakers - one activated by a pull on the dash, the other mid-pack, and
I can''t think of a good reason to eliminate any of them. With the Tropica I'm
working on now I'll have at least that many disconnects - and possibly more.
None of this, of course, is germane to EV's, which need real fuses, real
circuit breakers, and Anderson disconnects. To bring the discussion
back On Topic, I've heard people recommend a fuse AND a circuit breaker
in a battery circuit. In addition to a middle-of-pack disconnect with a
big red button on it. Opinions?
--Lawrence Lile
---------------------------------
Cheap Talk? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a related question, what is the impact on a controller in a 2 motor setup
when the motors are shifted from series to parallel? Is there a kick back to
the controller from the brief period when both circuits are open before the
parallel circuit contactors close? Does the sudden change in the volts and
amps being fed each motor feed back to the controller in a potentially damaging
way? I'm thinking of setting up my Tropica that way, but not having a Zilla,
which is designed for series/parallel shift, I'm worried about the impact of
the shift on my "hopped up Curtis" which I'm figuring is gonna be kind of
fragile anyway.
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Jack Murray wrote:
> That what it looks to me, instead of blowing the fet, you blow the diode.
> Also, through D1 is now the full motor current as well, rather than just
> a short inductive kick when Q1 closes, so that path will probably burn up.
The freewheel diode in a motor controller carries the full motor current
for the entire off-time of the transistor. For example, if the
controller is delivering 400 amps to the motor at 10% on-time, Q1
carries 400 amps for 10% of the time, and D1 carries 400 amps for 90% of
the time (i.e. almost continuously).
This circuit's current and voltage stress on Q1 and D1 are virtually
identical to that of a standard 48v setup. The only differences are the
ones I described in my original post -- that in the 96v range, the
controller's current limit doesn't work and that the upper half of the
pack discharges faster. Both of these can be dealt with.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
---------------------------------
Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>for a screw or rivet on mine. The tab broke
> off a fat 1/8th of an inch high. I might have to scrap >it and get another.
> Still looking for that
> magic aluminum solder.
>
I found aluminum welding rods in Harbour Freight. Lot number 44810. Says it
will weld aluminum with ANY low temp torch.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
I'd be more interested in seeing controllers built as several
different models for several distinct voltage ranges.
This is easy with modules. Even fairly easy with one PC board, that gets
populated with different parts for different voltages. You just have to
be careful to pick parts that stay the same size in different voltage
ratings (mainly capacitors).
No programming head or computer needed.
That's a hard one nowdays. Having a computer is a given. The first
design decision people seem to make is what operating system it will run
(Windows or Linux...)
AIR COOLED!
Air cooling is easier for the user, harder for the designer. It works
well if the controller is efficient enough so it doesn't make all that
much heat. Water cooling can be a good way out if the controller isn't
all that efficient.
To put it nicely, I'm really not impressed with air-cooled EV gear.
Maybe its because I've driven my EV through the south Texas summers,
but I just don't feel that air-cooled electronics are a good solution
for EVs.
Ultimately, everything is air cooled. Water cooling still has to
transfer all the heat to the air; it just uses more parts to do it.
The main problem with air cooling is that good heatsinks are expensive.
Designers tend to skimp, or leave them off entirely (the Curtis
controllers come to mind). Users don't know any better, and use it
without an adequate heatsink. Problems result.
I believe EV electronics need to be properly protected from the
automotive environment...
Amen! Too many items are designed for indoor use, or for best-case
climates where they don't have real weather.
PB6 throttle pot needed. No fancy throttle boxes or hand wound
sensors needed. Fault protected High and low pot.
A 0-5k resistive throttle "device" is standard, and easy; it doesn't
have to be the cheaply made overpriced PB6.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The difference between a motor controller and a charger is the motor
controller usually uses the motors inductance to smooth out the DC.
The charger must have the inductor because batteries don't have
inductance.
That's pretty close. It would be more accurate to say all switchmode
converters need at least one capacitor, one inductor, one transistor,
and one diode.
In the usual buck converter used for motor controllers, the capacitor is
the battery, and the inductor is the motor. (though, the controller
works better if you add a real capacitor and inductor).
So AP propulsions brilliant solution uses the inductance of the motor
for the charger. Smart! but probably only useful on an AC motor?
No; there have been lots of chargers that used the DC motor for their
inductors. The 1974 McKee Sundancer is one that comes to mind, but there
are many others. The motor's series field is used as an inductor for a
buck converter, exactly as is done for a motor controller. The motor's
armature is just replaced with the battery to be charged.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I think what has been pointed out as missing is a good, highpower sepex.
So the DC hobbiest can get regen.
Jim can rewind the fields for sep-ex.
Putting a high-voltage, low-current field winding on a motor is easy.
The problem is that running it with a weak field will increase arcing.
Using it for regen, where the current is reversed, increases arcing
still more.
To do it right, you have to do more to the motor so it will survive
running with a high or reversed armature current and weak field. This
requires either movable brush rigging, interpoles, compensation
windings, or some combination.
But I would like to see an inexpensive 3-phase ac controller
Everyone would... except the folks trying to build them :-)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe.
I guess there is a discount after 50 units, not sure how much?
If we could start a list of people who are interested.
-Tehben
On Oct 31, 2006, at 1:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I am and have posted several times the information from Valence.
Don
In a message dated 10/31/2006 12:10:53 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Are there other people interested in a Valence group buy? The rep
told me
of about 40 to 50% discount with high volume.
JJ
On 8 Oct 2006 at 11:29, GWMobile wrote:
I encourage to actual get the batteries you want from the start and
not listen to those who say start with what you don't want and
upgrade later.
I was going through some old unread messages and I came across this
note. It may be that this has already been addressed; if so
disregard
this.
I think the above advice is inappropriate for new EV hobbyists,
unless
"the batteries you want" are either very sturdy and economical
(such as
golf car batteries), or else the battery love of your life is a
complete system with charger and BMS (and preferably an integrated
controller or at least a cooperative one too). There are very
few such
integrated systems, though my impression is that the Valence comes
pretty close (at a substantial price).
There's a certain amount of skill and art to battery
maintenance. It's
a great tradition for beginning EVers to destroy their first
batteries
in the process of learning these skills. Do you want to kill a
$1500
pack, or a $15,000 one?
One thing you can also remember is you can buy a 5500 watt gas
generator on wheels at pep boys for about $300. With a trailer
hitch
you would have unlimited mileage in your electric for longer
trips.
Three problems, in random order (you decide what the order of
importance
is to you) :
1. You'll be polluting to a gross degree, probably on the order of
HUNDREDS of times as much as your ICE. You will also burn more
fuel
than you would in the ICE.
2. Unless you have a very light, efficient EV, a 5kW genset won't
keep
you going down the road at highway speeds. Most conversions need
12-15kW to maintain 55-60 mph.
3. The cheap gensets I've seen at the dollar stores at about this
price
appear to be crude and poorly made. They're apt to be barely
adequate
for use a few times a year. Use one of these, and you're likely to
drop your car's reliability to about that of a Model T. Better
make
sure your road service card is paid up.
It's possible to build a somewhat clean, somewhat efficient,
reasonably
reliable series hybrid (though it will almost impossible for a
homebuilder to make one as clean, efficient, or reliable as a
factory
ICE, let alone a factory hybrid). But it is a lot of work, and the
result won't look anything like these cheap portable gensets. If
you're considering running your EV with a portable genset,
please do
our lungs (and yourself) a favor and don't bother with the EV,
just
keep driving your ICE.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= Note:
mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send
a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
