EV Digest 6082
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 50ah batteries
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) The air car???
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: The air car???
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Motor Vibration
by "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Parallel charging?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: There's a Skunk on the road
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The air car???
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: The air car???
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: SOC from battery voltage
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: EV pusher Trailer
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Disabling Civic Power Steering Attn: Jim Schinnerer
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Motor Vibration
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: The air car???
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 72V Power Supply - Can I build one?
by "martin emde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Motor Vibration
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Considering that next pack.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Motor Vibration
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor Vibration, an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: [BULK] RE: EV pusher Trailer
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Fw: Air car, an' stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The BB looks good but I'm curious about it's life and its ability to
supply high amperage. I'm also looking at the Hawkers 1500PC
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm
I don't mind spending more up front for range or durability. If I get
the think I will make the yaris a city car that is fast and lighter
and use the think for long trips.
On Oct 30, 2006, at 9:40 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
There are three batteries I would consider for EV applications in
the 50 ah
range. BB, Optima & Exide. The BB is used in the Oxygen Lepton
Scooter.
Of these three or any other you can name, which is the best bang
for the
buck or just the plain best. Is there a battery I've missed in
this size
that might be more cost effective or maybe something half the size
that
might work just as well or better? I'm not against multiple
strings. I
would go for a bargain if I worked out. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.theaircar.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Been talked about. Search the archives.
Danny
Mark McCurdy wrote:
http://www.theaircar.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
have a new pressure plate and clutch.
Recently I put my dial indicator on the face of the flywheel. The
runout was about .015". No matter what I do, and how I try and get
the taper lock and flywheel installed, I can not get rid of this. If
I rotate the flywheel on the taper lock (bolt in on differently), the
high and low readings always stay with the taper lock and shaft of the
motor, so I assume that the flywheel is true, and the error is with
the taper lock or motor shaft.
I then took the flywheel and taper lock off and put the dial indicator
directly on the motor shaft.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/284377471/
and read a .001" wobble in the shaft.
So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
potential for error in my measurements?
Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
Chris Sutton
Seattle, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You may discharge in series and charge in parallel just fine.
Do not discharge in parallel and charge in series, the batteries will become
seriously unequalized very quickly.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 9:31 PM
Subject: Parallel charging?
> What are the pitfalls of parallel charging battery strings?
>
> I thought I saw a post recently that said that if the strings were not
> equally discharged they would balance when connected in parallel and then
> the charger would be able to charge them together. I tried to find it in
> the archive, but it seems like most every post has charging and battery
in
> it.
>
> My situation is that I have a 48 volt system and only a 24 volt charger.
> The batteries are T145s @ 260AH and the charger is a Lester 24 volt 40 amp
> for flooded batteries. I had originally intended to use 2 chargers but at
> 40# apiece that is a lot of weight to haul around not to mention the space
> they take up. I have an Anderson Emergency Disconnect in the middle of
the
> pack so the two strings are not tied together unless I am running and I
can
> connect the two charging ports together by making a wye cable.
>
> respectfully,
> John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
I like the name and the paint job. Outstanding work!!
What was the speed again? And how many batteries and
what voltage did you finally decide on?
Lyle
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I finally got my conversion put back together and on
> the road. As the
> painter was doing the paint job, he said it looked
> like a skunk and the
> name stuck. I have uploaded a couple of pictures to
> the EV Album site for
> anyone who is interested.
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
>
> respectfully,
> John
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
(http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Been talked about. Search the archives.
>
> Danny
>
Yeah - first entry in the Yahoo archives is August 2003, but it's
resurfaced since then and encourage a lot of talk of something called
"physics".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Despite one fellow's skepticism about weight, I think this idea
has some
> > merit.
>
> Well, you asked, and you got a response. ;-)
>
> But if you think the weight isn't an issue, go for it! Build one, and
> report back on the results.
>
>
Uh oh...when David tells you that, he's given up on explainations!
Even if his was the only reply, others may have came to the same
conclusion.
I do remember Bob Schneeveis driving an ICE X1-9 to a Stanford rally
with a pusher trailer bolted securely to the back, full of a load of
Optimas (10 or 12), a controller, and 2 6.7" motors (one per wheel),
but even *that* creative genius never persued the idea (probably
didn't consider it a "bad" premise, just moved on to other things).
That's >600lbs you wouldn't want hanging around behind a Fiat, but he
did say the idea was for in-town driving, to be removed for long trips.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I visited them in 2000 near Nice, France.
They were almost ready to start production of the cars,
just designing a factory to become the mother of all
licensed factories around the world....
Then they decided to change their model to the City-CAT,
now they have changed their minds (although the CAT is
still not completely forgotten) and concentrate on
industrial application.
See a translation and excerpt here:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/mdiaircar/message/2765
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark McCurdy
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 9:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: The air car???
http://www.theaircar.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Try to stay above 10.5V unless you are seeing race-currents
then you will need to take the internal resistance into
account, you can use the formula:
12V - R(internal) x I(battery)
(at 12V unloaded a lead battery is almost dead, but with
an internal resistance of 4 mOhm and 1000A it may sag to
8V without reversing a cell, as the voltage drop is due
to internal resistance, not reversal.
The hardest part is to measure voltage under load, so if
you want protection you better have either a good algorithm
or use a fixed limit that is way higher.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of JS
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:42 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: SOC from battery voltage
I am using a Curtis 1231c with 16 Trojan T-105 for a 96 volt system.
I try to keep current below 300Amps, and probably average about 100 Amps.
Can the State-Of-Charge be determined from battery voltage when under load?
What is a minimum 'safe' voltage under load?
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence,
I think your idea might work - with enough engineering
you can probably make a safe and driveable EV pusher.
NOTE that you will need to attack the gas car's controls
and in particular the accelerator and brake, to send the
controls to the EV pusher - I'm not sure how you will
keep the gas car unmodified so you can hook the trailer
up to any gas car, when you need the accelerator and brake
signals, unless you tap into the CAN bus?
(You may tap into the brake light wire to disengage the
EV drive, but how to you control the acceleration?)
However, your may want to ask yourself if you like driving
around with a trailer.
How often do you go to a store? To the gym? To a restaurant?
To any other place where you will have to park the car in a
parking spot where the trailer will not fit and where it will
be a pain to back up to get out of there?
Another question is if this is the message you want to send
to people to "promote" EVs. That they are simple to drive,
normal looking, regular cars that are a good answer for
normal around-town commuting.
The idea of a trailer is not bad - it has come up frequently
to extend the range of an EV.
If you load it full of batteries and hook it up to an EV,
then you have an instant range-extender.
I drive my EV for more than 95% of the time, as 95% of my trips
are within 20 miles from home.
If you optimize the solution for these 95% then you will have
a very efficient solution - the other few percent can either
be covered with a second vehicle or a rental.
If you make an optimum solution for long-distance (your car
without the EV pusher) and make it sub-optimal for the 95%
of the trips (car + trailer), my feeling is that that is not
the best solution for the issue.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark McCurdy
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 6:49 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
in a word
weight
To push an ICE, it would have to have a lot of batteries, which means a lot
of weight, which means a lot of wasted gas towing it on the freeway and hard
to handle since it weighs soo much
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: EV pusher Trailer
> You see EV'ers building ICE pusher trailers to extend their range. What
> about the other way around? You take a rear end and differential, hack
> on a motor batteries and controller, and hitch it up to whatever car you
> want.
>
> I know the idea has been discussed here - has anyone done it?
>
> You'd have to add a control module in the cab, but the mods to the car
> would be minimal.
>
> There would be some safety measures needed at the trailer: A remote
> disconnect that can be actuated from the cab electrically, a fail-safe
> controller that would de-energize the electric motor in case of a failed
> cable. Maybe de-energize the motor on application of towing vehicle
> brakes.
>
> Adding a second foot-feed to operate the trailer might not be easy in
> some cars. A hand operated throttle seems tricky. Possibly arrange it
> to disconnect the EV motor if the brakes are applied?
>
> In the full blown EV, if you exceed your range, you are in for the
> hassle of a tow or a night long charging cycle at the side of the road
> with some buddy's ICE and an inverter. But with an EV pusher, if you
> run out of juice you just shut it off and tow it home.
>
> The idea is to achieve more electric percentage than a conventional
> hybrid, say 75% of your motor power at highway speeds, without buying a
> donor vehicle or going through the more difficult process of converting
> a donor vehicle. Gets you 75% of the way to the goal, and when you want
> to visit the relatives in Tumwater, you can just unhitch the EV trailer
> and away you go.
>
>
>
> Lawrence Lile
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you don't mind a steering that needs a little power
(arm wrestling in the parking lot) then you can simply
loop the pump input to the output on the rack and the
oil will flow around when you are steering.
I have an electric steering pump on my truck, but
because my DC/DC is still "out" I need to conserve
power from my aux battery, so I pulled the plug on
the power steering motor and I am managing to drive it
"by hand" except when I am at standstill, but that is
exactly when I do NOT want to turn my wheels (and wreck
the thread or the alignment).
I have so often people seen tearing the stones out of
the road by turning their wheels while dead stopped,
at minimum chafing their thread but possibly doing
much more damage - I consider it an art to have my vehicle
rolling slowly when turning the wheels....
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 5:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Disabling Civic Power Steering Attn: Jim Schinnerer
Your send says "Civic" power steering, while this says
"Capri".
If it's a Civic, gen 5, you can swap the rack from a
hatchback directly into a sedan. The sedan is power
assist, and the hatch is manual steering.
It's a bit involved, but the Honda shop manual tells
how to do it, and I'd say give it 2-3 hours for the
first time.
peace,
--- Christie Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> I need to know if it's possible to disable the
> steering on a Capri (before I
> actually buy one as a donor car).
>
> And if Jim or anyone else can let me know what's
> involved I'd be eternally
> grateful.
>
> Cheers
> Christie :0)
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New
Yahoo.com
(http://www.yahoo.com/preview)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try checking your taperlock adaptor for alignment marks between the hub and the
tapered bushing. Sometimes if the hub was ever
balanced they will mark which hole in the bushing lines up with a particular
hole in the hub when it was balanced. You would want
to put it back in the same alignment as when it was balanced. Just a thought...
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> Chris Sutton wrote:
>>
> I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> is coming from my 8" ADC Motor......>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would be awesome if they actually built those here in the states. I
saw it on an episode of Beyond Tomorrow. They can go 150Km on a charge
(air) and take roughly 3 hours to recharge. With all of our work to
improve the effeciency of gas engines (basically air pumps) we could
take that technology to huge heights. At 1500 lbs though I know the
government would put restrictions and have to impose crash protection
crap that would add another 1000 lbs to its weight.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark McCurdy
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 0:37
To: [email protected]
Subject: The air car???
http://www.theaircar.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick,
Thanks for the reply. I teach math, science, and engineering at a small
private high school in Hawaii. This year we are doing an EV conversion
(1988 Toyota Corolla Wagon). As a side project we are trying to get an old
GEM running again. Someone donated one to the school a couple years back
and we're finally getting around to the task of bringing it back to life.
It's in quite a few pieces, at least electrically, but as far as I can tell
all the parts are there. We even have three controllers for the thing. As
I mentioned earlier, I think the Aux CD/DC converter board is suspect. If
that's the case I was hoping to bypass some of that circuitry to fool the
controller into thinking it should provide power to the motor. What do you
think? I have a schematic and manual from the Yahoo group and from a
cursory review this seems possible. I'm not sure of the model year but
based on what the charger looks like it's probably a 99-01 as you suggest.
I'm not too worried about the functionality of the charger at this point as
again I'm hoping to jumper the charger signals to the controller.
So the near term plan is to find 6 tester batteries and see what happens.
We don't have any paperwork for the car. Do you think we could still take
advantage of the recall on the circuit card? I would love it if we (myself
or the students) could contact you when we get stuck. I think it will be a
worthwhile project as we wait for the conversion parts to arrive for our
Toyota.
Thanks.
Martin
On 10/26/06, Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Sounds like you've got an idea of whats going on so far. If you happen to
live in Phoenix I just might have a couple of junk testers I can donate to
the cause, I'm converting one to a gel pack right now.
I know GEM's pretty well so if you have any specific problems get in
touch with me. There is a Yahoo Group NEV's which if you join has a good
files section with the service manual on there. If the Aux DC/DC converter
board doesn't work there is good news too.... there's a recall on it. As you
can see the board is exposed and there happens to be a nice channel where
water can get to that board and cause it to die. There is a potted version
of that now and they also install some splash guarding. If it does work
though I'd just let it ride and keep the freebie in case you ever need it. I
have known a few of those boards to simply die on their own (and it's about
a $800 part otherwise!).
Also, what year is it? If it's a 99-01 it probably has the big alluminum
box Schott charger. It might work, but they are notoriously bad units that,
in my experience, die and try to take the battery pack to the grave with
them. If it's a late 01-04 it'll have a Zivan charger, if this is the case
say hurray, these are good chargers. The only problem is the stock charge
profile in them was not aggressive enough, but you can send it to Elcon in
California (www.zivanusa.com) for a reprogram. There is also a known issue
with the input fuse holder inside these chargers, they tend to melt. If your
comfortable with a soldering iron removing the fuse holder and soldering in
a more permanent fuse is the long term fix. The newer GEM's have DeltaQ
chargers in them, and I believe there is a retforit kit for these that isn't
too insanely priced.
Another good GEM resource you might want to check out is
www.evtrader.com and click on forums (the store hasn't worked for a long
time).
Good luck,
Rick
Original Message:
Actually I already connected the motor to a 12v battery to verify that
the
motor works. It's the motor/controller interface that I'm concerned
with.
I have a feeling the controller has a lock-out and will not function if
the
voltage is below some threshold, say 66V. Same with the circuit board
that
includes the DC-DC converter and other control. I kind of like the
"find 6
old batteries at the junkyard" idea.
Thanks.
Martin
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
If you are using a flywheel and clutch set up that is design for a existing
vehicle, make sure it's a external balance type instead of a internal
balance.
The internal balance flywheels are use to balance a engine, while the
external balance ones are balance in it self.
Also, when install a bell housing to the adapter plate, use the guide pins
that insert into bell housing flange and adapter plate. This keeps the
transmission input shaft center line to the axles of the output motor shaft.
If the guide pins do not fit tight, then pick up some over size pins.
The bell housing bolts in them self, will not give you good alignment. If
you do not have the alignment pins install, then next thing to do, is to
scribed a reference line at the bottom of bell housing flange where it mates
to the adapter plate.
Then loosen the bell housing bolts a bit and if the bell housing reference
mark has not move, then your bell housing is resting either on the pins or
bolts.
Then place a jack under the bell housing flange and see if it will move up a
bit, if it does, than place another scribe mark. Leave it all the way up
and tighten up the bolts and see if you still have the vibration. If you
do, than try dropping it down a bit and try again.
For good alignment, the transmission input shaft to the motor shaft, should
at least be 0.001 inch in alignment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: Motor Vibration
> I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
> and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
> have a new pressure plate and clutch.
>
> Recently I put my dial indicator on the face of the flywheel. The
> runout was about .015". No matter what I do, and how I try and get
> the taper lock and flywheel installed, I can not get rid of this. If
> I rotate the flywheel on the taper lock (bolt in on differently), the
> high and low readings always stay with the taper lock and shaft of the
> motor, so I assume that the flywheel is true, and the error is with
> the taper lock or motor shaft.
>
> I then took the flywheel and taper lock off and put the dial indicator
> directly on the motor shaft.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/284377471/
>
> and read a .001" wobble in the shaft.
>
> So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
> potential for error in my measurements?
>
> Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
>
> Chris Sutton
> Seattle, WA
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really need a little more range occasionally and am considering what
pack to go with next time around (looking 3 years out)
So i started comparing specs and it seems to me the valence setup weight
density is poor, the case and BMS can't weight that much?
to replace my 288V nominal 50ah AGM pack(34ah at 1hr rate) (please no
flames, haha, literally, i do understand the safety issue)
ignoring bms for now...
100ah 288V nominal pack is 24 valence modules * 34.5 lbs each or 828lbs,
my lead weights 1000 so that is about 3x better. 150A con 300Amp peak
100ah 288V of kokams is 428Lbs about 6x better and 500A cont 800A peak.
100ah 288V of A123 is 24 modules of 44*4 27lb*24=651lbs 3000A con 5280A
pulse assuming 44*4 blocks. so about 4-5 times better
Cycle life of kokams sounds poor, valence and A123 look significantly
better. I am starting to understand why Tesla went with the A123 cells.
now to find out the prices....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 0.001" runout on the shaft sounds within tolerances.
The 0.015" runout is a bit high. This could cause the vibration. Usually, you
want the TIR (total indicated runout) to be less than 0.005" for precision
machined parts.
It sounds like the hole in the taper lock is at a slight angle, causing the
face to be off, or the face is not perpendicular to the bore. Either one will
cause excessive runout such as what you describe. Another possibility is that
the face of the taper lock or the flywheel has a burr or scoring that has
created a ridge of raised material that keeps it from sitting flush.
Also, I believe others on the list prefer to balance the
motor/hub/flywheel/clutch assembly while it is completely assembled as a unit
rather than before adding the clutch assembly. That may help.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Chris Sutton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 1:03:26 AM
Subject: Motor Vibration
I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
have a new pressure plate and clutch.
Recently I put my dial indicator on the face of the flywheel. The
runout was about .015". No matter what I do, and how I try and get
the taper lock and flywheel installed, I can not get rid of this. If
I rotate the flywheel on the taper lock (bolt in on differently), the
high and low readings always stay with the taper lock and shaft of the
motor, so I assume that the flywheel is true, and the error is with
the taper lock or motor shaft.
I then took the flywheel and taper lock off and put the dial indicator
directly on the motor shaft.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/284377471/
and read a .001" wobble in the shaft.
So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
potential for error in my measurements?
Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
Chris Sutton
Seattle, WA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 1:03 AM
Subject: Motor Vibration
> I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
> and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
> have a new pressure plate and clutch.
>
> Recently I put my dial indicator on the face of the flywheel. The
> runout was about .015". No matter what I do, and how I try and get
> the taper lock and flywheel installed, I can not get rid of this. If
> I rotate the flywheel on the taper lock (bolt in on differently), the
> high and low readings always stay with the taper lock and shaft of the
> motor, so I assume that the flywheel is true, and the error is with
> the taper lock or motor shaft.
>
> I then took the flywheel and taper lock off and put the dial indicator
> directly on the motor shaft.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/284377471/
>
> and read a .001" wobble in the shaft.
>
> So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
> potential for error in my measurements?
>
> Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
>
> Chris Sutton
> Seattle, WA
>
> Hi Chris;
I went through this opera for years, on my Rabbit!Thought it was my
tranny, flywheel, just lived with it til it got as loud as a Diseasel
Rabbit. Would change out the tranny, no fix. My motor bearings would wear
out in 30k miles, all that. So I FINALLY had the 12 lb Rabbit flywheel
machined down to 6 lbs, who NEEDS a ring gear in an EV, anyhow? The
machinist an' I watched POUNDS of scrap steel peel away, very gratifying!
After all this, new motor bearings, comm cut and polished,a stronger
pressure plate, and disc, put the whole assembly together. The motor
armature,the taper lock, flywheel, and pressure plate TOGETHER as it would
be in the car. Schlepped it down to a gas rig speed shop. Gas guyz run at
higher speeds than we, I mean RACING gas stuff.He set it up, in a thing a
crankshaft just came out of. Spun it up to whatEVer it took to get a balance
reading. IT WAS out of balance when it was asssembled. The motor armature
was OK by itself, the Warfield folks took care of that, already. But when ya
put all this scrap iron together it sure as hell isn't!Yeah I had a bit of
runout, too, like you, but I let the guy just BALANCE the whole thing as it
would live in the car.
Results, WOW! Glass smooth the stuff EV grins are made of. Instant
throttle response! Lay rubber in second just by flooring it! John Wayland
did! We would still be honeymooning had I not wrecked it towing it home from
Joliet.The lightened flywheel makes a differance. Probably woulda torn up
the tranny by now<g>?
So,.....bottom line; Balance EVerything ,put together, oh, don't put the
clutch disc in while doing this, because you will NEVER get it centered!!It
will center when you put the thing together , when you re install the motor.
Happy smooooth motoring!
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date: 10/27/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for a carefully considered reply!
>I think your idea might work - with enough engineering
you can probably make a safe and driveable EV pusher.
>NOTE that you will need to attack the gas car's controls
and in particular the accelerator and brake, to send the
controls to the EV pusher - I'm not sure how you will
keep the gas car unmodified so you can hook the trailer
up to any gas car,
Yeah, the gas car would definitely have to be modified somewhat, the
pusher would not be universal. In one of my cars, there is actually
room for an extra footpedal between the gas and brake pedal, that might
be one approach. J B Straubel's
<http://www.jstraubel.com/EVpusher/EVpusher2.htm>
ICE pusher trailer actually uses a potentiometer in a box, hand
controlled, to control the pusher motor. I was thinking of modifying
maybe two vehicles to accommodate the pusher.
>when you need the accelerator and brake
signals, unless you tap into the CAN bus?
I suppose I could dust off rusty electronics skills and get into CAN bus
stuff, but a separate footfeed for acceleration, and a brake light relay
sound a lot more hackable.
>(You may tap into the brake light wire to disengage the
EV drive, but how to you control the acceleration?)
I was thinking about a footpedal arrangement, but it is difficult to
imagine a good system. A hand controlled pot, with a brake-controlled
interface that would throw the EV motor into "neutral" would be
possible. Or, set the cruise control on the ICE, then ramp up the
footfeed on the EV motor, and let the cruise control back off the ICE.
The majority of my miles are at highway speeds.
>However, your may want to ask yourself if you like driving
around with a trailer.
I've done it quite a bit, it can be a hassle, or not, depending on how
you plan ahead. It helps if you are good at backing up trailers.
>How often do you go to a store? To the gym? To a restaurant?
To any other place where you will have to park the car in a
parking spot where the trailer will not fit and where it will
be a pain to back up to get out of there?
Generally when I'm towing a trailer I pull into two spots. Even in a
plain old car I always park at the far end of the parking lot, to the
annoyance of all my passengers, where there are plenty of open spots,
fewer doors banging into my car, and a brisk walk. Usually that end of
the parking lot also has an RV and a Semi truck, who face the same
parking problems. Most parking problems can easily be solved by the
application of shoe leather. I do live in a small college town, which
helps.
>Another question is if this is the message you want to send
to people to "promote" EVs. That they are simple to drive,
normal looking, regular cars that are a good answer for
normal around-town commuting.
Yes, there is that aspect. When I am riding a recumbent bicycle, my
other passion, I definitely feel like I am "promoting" recumbents.
Other people might feel like I belong in the loony bin, or am promoting
sleeping while biking, but that is their opinion.
>The idea of a trailer is not bad - it has come up frequently
to extend the range of an EV.
If you load it full of batteries and hook it up to an EV,
then you have an instant range-extender..........
....An ICE pusher plus an EV car, which weighs exactly the same as an
ICE car plus an EV pusher.
I'm also wondering if it is a smaller project to bite off. Undoubtedly,
I will build more than one EV (I always build about three of anything
before I'm satisfied with it). If I use parts that could be recycled in
a future small car conversion, this gives me a lot of experience with
the electrical part of it, in a platform (the back end of a dead pickup)
that can be obtained for a song and assembled in an afternoon. I would
imagine that chopping up a donor car could be quite a process by itself,
even before electrical components go in. Sort of a low risk entry level
project, with a plan for trading up.
>I drive my EV for more than 95% of the time, as 95% of my trips
are within 20 miles from home.
If you optimize the solution for these 95% then you will have
a very efficient solution - the other few percent can either
be covered with a second vehicle or a rental.
If you make an optimum solution for long-distance (your car
without the EV pusher) and make it sub-optimal for the 95%
of the trips (car + trailer), my feeling is that that is not
the best solution for the issue.
Thanks! Obviously my other option is to convert a donor car, and design
it to have enough range for 95% of my trips. I haven't really
considered the idea of a rental seriously, but it has a lot of merit.
If you need a truck, rent a BIG truck and get it all in one load.
--Lawrence Lile
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Air cars, again, comments on the "Hot Aire Line" as air streetcars were
sometimes called<g>!Orig to (Duh) Dave Robie.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "David C Robie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Air car, an' stuff
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David C Robie"
> Sent: Monday, October 30, 2006 12:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Air car
>
>
> >
> > MYGAWSH ! The thermal losses in compressing air make the supply side
> > quite costly. Also, time consuming. If you have ever seen a
compressor
> > the same type as fills scuba diving tanks with intercoolers between
> > stages, and been in the same room while it was operating (hot) . . . .
> > And you dont want to wait for your own scuba tanks, it is best to have
a
> > leisurely lunch while it's being done. I can't see where they get that
> > MPGE figure unless they own the compressor and it is already paid down,
> > and there is nothing added for the man who pumps the pump or rent on the
> > space this huge noisy thing takes up, or maint on it. (us Evehicle guys
> > don't have those problems with our battery chargers, which we own and
own
> > the relatively miniscule space they are in too).
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Dasve has some good points, here. He, too, has "Hands on" experiance
> with the Real World compressing air stuff.Rewind back to the 1880's
> compressed air was tried, actually quite successfuly, on streetcars, but
had
> the same compression issues, EVen back then. Cars were built with a double
> bottom, like a ship's hull, to store air. They used a working pressure of
> about 80 PSI, pretty wimpy by todaze standards, but it gave them about
8-10
> miles running, with basicly recip steam engines, running gear. One of the
> selling points was the "Regen" throwing the valves over to make it
compress
> to slow down. Worked great on hills, better than downshifting! The down
side
> was running a pipeline along the streetcar's route, in case they ran out
of
> breath. Of course they took a snort at the end of the line to be wafted
back
> home. Probably it would have been improved, except for that upstart guy
> Frank Sprague, who was running Streetcars by a variation of (Gasp!)
> lightning by the late 80's. Well, compressed air looked pretty good,
> compared to lightning<g>! But, many of the issues we are dealing with
today
> were delt with in the 1890's to bring electric power from a curiosity to
> basic transportation, series-parallel, interpoles, field shunting, carbon
> brushes. No! Really! The first E motors used copper brushes. Reasoning
here,
> copper conducts pretty well, why not?But it arced fiercely, and shifting
the
> brush timing helped to cut down on the arcing. Hmmm? Sound familiar?Early
> trolleys left a copper trail in the street from the arcing, burning of the
> brushes.The "Driver" was called a motor man, as it was his job to tend the
> brush timing, the direction it ran and how much it arced when it did.
Names
> die hard as the guy running a light rail vehicle is still a motorman. We
> have firemen on locomotives, nowadaze, but he hasn't had to shovel any
coal
> for years! Amtrak(never had any steam lokies) has called them assistant
> engineers, or just trainees, How do we get locomotive engineers? We TRAIN
> them, they go to Choo Choo U, for training, then they get trained for
sure,
> lots of midnight switchers and 12 hour work trains!And the fun stuff
Acelas
> and Silver Meteors, too.
>
> Back to the thread;
> > As to 'onboard compression'. Sure, could happen with a smaller
> > compressor. Still, it's heavy cast iron. How much time have you got
to
> > do it in? Equivalent to the time for a 220VAC full charge on a 120V
> > vehicle? Doubt it.
> >
> You couldn't carry all this iron mongery aboard, just too heavy!The
> cooling system, too? Well it COULD be great cabin heat, in Nome ,Alaska or
> Siberia!
>
> > YAH regen could happen with a piston engine if designed for it. But
> > heavy thermal loss is still there, you would get a quite low % of energy
> > back.
>
> > For sure!
>
> > All my portable shop tools are compressed air. When running the
> > compressor almost constant on a big job like a lot of grinding and
> > cutting, the cellar where she's located gets quite hot if the windows
> > ain't open. And that's only a100psi
> > 120VAC compressor. How about 2000 psi? at perhaps 220 or 440 3 phase
> > Think about it.
>
> > Scary!
>
> Bob an'
> > Dave
> > Weymouth MA
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 19:58:57 -0500 "Stan Keysa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > writes:
> > > Something you all might want to discuss at or after the Seminar, from
> > > CBS
> > > via Comcast:
> > >
> > >
> >
http://www.comcast.net/providers/fan/popup.html?v=132121482&pl=131744398.
> > xml
> > > &config=/config/common/fan/default.xml
> > >
> > > Essential details:
> > > - The power comes from Compressed Air in a carbon fiber tank to
> > > drive
> > > piston engine (yes, another bomb, but aren't they all)
> > > - The designers are Guy and Cyril Negre (spelling?) of Nice,
> > > France;
> > > - Guy designed a Formula One engine;
> > > - Cyril worked for Bugatti (?);
> > > - 2$ for 120 miles (versus $10 for a car with 30 mpg and gas at
> > > $2.50);
> > > - Professor Suchin Chow at UCLA is working on the same concept.
> > >
> > > All it need now is a flywheel for regenerative breaking. (Couldn't
> > > resist).
> > >
> > >
> > > Unless a system where they pump it back using the engine could be
> > > more
> > > efficient, just as reliable, and of equal or lesser cost.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 6:00 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: November Electric Vehicle Seminar
> > >
> > > Just thought you might want to attend.
> > > Menlo Park III,
> > > Bill
> > >
> > > The Solar Energy Association of Connecticut invites you to
> > > A Seminar and Discussion
> > >
> > > on
> > >
> > > " ADVANCES IN ELECTRIC VEHICLES & RELATED TECHNOLOGIES ( --
> > > Including
> > > Hybrid Vehicles, Plug-in Hybrids, new Battery technology, & other
> > > developments ) "
> > > on
> > >
> > > SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 4, 2006 ( 2 PM)
> > >
> > > at the
> > > University of Connecticut, Undergraduate Building (Room 311)
> > > 85 Lawler Road, West Hartford, Connecticut
> > > (between Trout Brook Drive and North Main Street )
> > >
> > > featuring presentations by
> > >
> > > James Landi, Pilot Operations manager, Electro Energy, Inc
> > > Steven Warren, Assistant General Manager, Maintenance Services,
> > > CT
> > > Transit
> > >
> > > [ Steve Warren will discuss CT Transit's experience with their
> > > hybrid (Diesel Electric) Transit Bus, future technology plans for
> > > bus
> > > service, regional transit plans, and other developments at their
> > > Hartford facility.
> > > James Landi from Electro Energy will discuss hybrid electric
> > > vehicles, plug-in hybrids, and the various new technology battery
> > > options. He hopes to bring their demo plug-in hybrid vehicle to
> > > show
> > > us after the seminar.
> > > These presentations will be preceded by a short introduction to
> > > the general subject of Regenerative Energy Storage drive systems, to
> > >
> > > give an overview of the many approaches under development in this
> > > exciting field.
> > > The speakers' presentations will be followed by an open
> > > discussion. Those attending are invited to bring in their
> > > questions
> > > and ideas, and information about other relevant systems they know
> > > of. ]
> > >
***********************************************************************
> > > *************************
> > > DIRECTIONS: The location is on Lawler Rd, about 100 yds from Trout
> > > Brook Ave in West Hartford, between North Main St and Trout Brook
> > > Ave.
> > > From Rte I-84 - Exit 43 - Turn RIGHT on to Park Rd - 50 yds -- Next
> > > Left on to Trout Brook Drive -- go about one mile - cross
> > > Farmington
> > > Ave - go about 1 mile - cross Asylum Avenue - ¼ mile - turn left
> > > onto
> > > Lawler Road -- 100 yds -- turn left into Parking lot for the UConn
> > > Undergraduate Bldg -- Enter bldg & go to Room 208.
> > > From points North (Windsor, etc) - Rte 91 South - Exit 35-B - turn
> > > RIGHT on to Cottage Grove Rd - 3+ miles - Cottage Grove Rd becomes
> > > No.
> > > Main St -- cross Albany Ave (Rte 44) - go about 1/2 mi - turn LEFT
> > > on
> > > to Lawler Rd --- go ¼ mile -- turn right into Parking Lot for the
> > > UConn Undergraduate Bldg -- Enter bldg & go to Room 208.
> > >
***********************************************************************
> > > *************************
> > > This event is organized by the
> > > Solar Energy Association of Connecticut, Inc.,
> > > a nonprofit, educational organization ( active since 1976) which
> > > supports and promotes
> > > the use of renewable energies and environmentally benign
> > > technologies.
> > > It is open to all interested persons, free of charge. Please
> > > register
> > > for this event by calling one of the foll:
> > > (860) 233-5684 or (860) 489-9555 or (203) 613-4363 or (845)
> > > 669-
> > > 8341
> > > [ Solar Energy Assoc. of Conn. Inc.; P.O. Box 541; Hartford CT
> > > 06101.
> > > Web Site: www.SolarEnergyOfCT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ________________________________________________________________________
> > > Try Juno Platinum for Free! Then, only $9.95/month!
> > > Unlimited Internet Access with 1GB of Email Storage.
> > > Visit http://www.juno.com/value to sign up today!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.17/505 - Release Date:
10/27/06
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
