EV Digest 6089
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Series/parallel switch, was: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Discharging in series and charging in parallel
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: SEMA Automotive Show in Vegas
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) EV Needed for Photo Shoot near Aliso Viejo, CA
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: [BULK] Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: High Power Desulfator?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) The Air Car?
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: The Air Car?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: The Air Car?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The Air Car?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVCL Mouse 600 Amp. controller
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Discharging in series and charging in parallel
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) BB600 Group
by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) BB600 Group
by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Pusher Trailer
by Daniel Eyk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) The steam electric hybrid vs the air car.
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) New to the list, looking to convert
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) All-Day EV Workshop in SF 11-18
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 01, 2006 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: Series/parallel switch, was: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
> James Massey wrote:
> > If you're not reversing the motors, or the reversing contactors are
> > after the series/parallel contactors, an external freewheel diode of
> > suitable rating across each motor will take care of that. Just as
> > long as the controller is shut off before switching should be OK.
>
> The controller can shut off its transistors instantly. But it will take
> the motors a significant fraction of a second for their current to ramp
> back down to zero, since they are shorted during this time by the
> controller's freewheel diodes.
> You Bet!
> Series/parallel contactors inevitably have an in-between position as
> they move when both contacts are open. If you try to switch them while
> motor current is flowing, you get a huge amount of arcing and the
> transient voltage can be very high.
> That's how I got that great Vid at Woodburn when the Zombie
series -paralleled itseld during a burnout, or break stand! It's a wonder
that there was enough motor left to turn 106mph in the quarter right after
the light show. Only a blown out brushspring and a few arc marks were the
results! Jim builds them GOOD<g>!
> So, the sequence is:
>
> - command the controller off
> - wait for motor current to fall to zero
> - open the parallel contactors
> - close the series contactors
> - command the controller on
> -- Or ya tow the lokie back to the shop for a few motor
changeouts!Especially with louder voltages RR's like.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Nov 2006 at 10:06, Lee Hart wrote:
> auto companies use proprietary custom
> nonrepairable "black box" computers. ... there are people that prefer
> an "open architecture" like PCs.
>
> Personally, I think this would produce even more reliability and
> repairability headaches.
Only if one attempted to actually use a PC. There's no reason that a
dedicated team couldn't design hardware and software suited to the harsh
environment of a vehicle, including EVs. This might use literally any
processor. They might adopt some subset of Linux with a rewritten kernel,
or modify some user-supported realtime operating system, or write their own
from scratch.
The problem is that it's a dauntingly time-consuming and expensive (in terms
of person-hours) undertaking, without compelling benefits that the average
consumer will readily perceive.
Note carefully : I'm not saying "without benefits," I'm saying that the
average person, Jane Carbuyer, will have trouble perceiving them. This is
rather like the case with the benefits of open source software (and EVs),
which for various reasons tend to be visible to a relatively small number of
individuals.
I think the potential consumption is even smaller in this case. I suspect
that a lot more people homebrew their computers than homebrew their cars.
But if some folks wanted to design an open hardware and software system for
vehicle control as a "labor of love," perhaps over time some smaller ICE and
EV manufacturers might adopt it. There would be no appreciable return from
this because charging licensing fees would slow or halt the adoption.
Manufacturers would most likely use such a standard not because they have
any particular regard for the principle of open design, but rather because
it gave them a salable product for a lower investment.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Nov 2006 at 21:58, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What if I get 26 separate 12 volt battery chargers and connect them
> individually across each battery and plug them all into a common plug for
> charging?
This is what has been called "modular charging." It was a "great hope" of
several of us on this list about 12 years ago. We figured that not only
would it provide more even charging, it would also cost less because 12v
chargers were a mass-market item.
It didn't live up to the promise. When you have 26 chargers you are 26
times as likely (or 25 times >more< likely, if you'd rather word it that way
;-) to have a failure. Also, most of the modular chargers used were more-
complex switchmode chargers. Ironically, not only the complexity, but also
the mass-market character worked against reliability, since many of the
small switchmode chargers were built to be cheap, not to be gold-standard
reliable.
The problem boils down to this : if one charger fails and you don't know it,
its battery will be damaged or destroyed, possibly violently, the next time
you drive the vehicle.
The most successful modular charging has been done with the simplest
chargers - plain linear transformer chargers with simple cycle-dropping
control. I think John Bryan is one who's done that; he may weigh in about
his "blinky" chargers.
I tried some Cliplight-made chargers of this type, and found two problems.
One was the sheer bulk and weight. Their total weight was about as much as
a Lester boat-anchor charger, and they took up a LOT of room in the car.
The other problem was that even with the (potentially) higher reliability I
still had one charger that, after a few weeks, began undercharging its
battery.
Modular charging is not hopeless, but it's not the panacea that it appears
to be at first glance. If you decide to try it, at the very least you'll
need some way to monitor each individual battery to make sure it's properly
charged, and shut down the vehicle or prevent startup if it isn't.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Nov 2006 at 20:22, Ricky Suiter wrote:
> I found out the base vehicle was some sort of Korean truck, but they
> wouldn't say exactly what.
I wonder why they're being so cagey. From the Phoenix pictures, it looks to
me like a chopped and mildly disguised Ssangyong Kyron :
http://www.smotor.com/en/showroom/kyron/main.jsp
There's a news release on the Ssangyong website reporting that they recently
concluded an agreement to have Kyrons built in Russia from KD kits, so it
may be that they're supplying Phoenix with kits rather than gliders.
Phoenix's smaller crossover SUV on this page :
http://66.218.37.153/cars.htm
looks like the Ssangyong Actyon :
http://www.smotor.com/en/showroom/actyon/main.jsp
Ssangyong has sold gliders for EVs in the past. A while back I read that
somebody was offering NEVs based on the Musso. Yep, slow speed NEVs.
Mussos already look and feel kind of lumbering and clumsy. I can hardly
imagine them limited to, what, 30 mph?
http://www.smotor.com/en/overview/line_musso.jsp
I'll bet THOSE sold well. :-(
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, A beutiful young environmentally bent model from Southern California
needs an EV for a photo shoot this coming Saturday in Aliso Viejo. I know
this is short notice. Anyone with a very clean photogenic EV please contact
Jon through her My Space web site. www.myspace.com/genre
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date: 11/2/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Nov 2006 at 8:27, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> Another variant of this idea is to use a stock ICE with front wheel drive, and
> add an EV motor to a hacked rear wheel drive section.
Some years back, Audi built a prototype like this.
I used to think about making such a conversion with a Honda Civic 4x4 wagon,
or maybe a Subaru Justy 4wd minicar. Just about all the examples are now
long gone to iron oxide here in the rustbelt, though.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
Just wondering if anyone has used this circuit for their EV?
http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/highpower.htm
These magic pulse desulfators get brought up every now an then. People
who sell them advertise them as a miracle cure. People who build them
are generally amateurs that don't make careful measurements.
I did some careful measurements on a circuit published in Home Power a
number of years ago that used the same principle, and could not detect
any benefit over what was achieved with completely normal techniques.
Here's what I think is going on:
- Normal chargers don't go above about 15v.
- A totally dead 12v battery won't draw any current even at 15v.
That's because the electrolyte is almost pure water, and so is
essentially nonconductive.
- So, it won't charge with a normal charger.
- To get it to start charging, you need to apply a much higher
voltage, to force at least a little current to start flowing.
- This starts the process of converting lead sulfate back into
lead oxide and sulfuric acid. The more it charges, the more
conductive the electrolyte becomes.
- Eventually (it could take hours to weeks) there is enough acid
so the battery returns to normal, and can be recharged with a
normal charger.
The pulsers are just a complicated way to apply a higher voltage to get
this process started. An easier way is to just connect a higher-voltage
power supply, with a resistor or lamp in series.
The resistor or lamp (or the limited average current that a pulser can
produce) is necessary because once the battery transitions back into
normal operation, you need to somehow limit the current, because you
can't charge dead batteries at high current without causing damage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I went to Cripple Creek's Moley Kathleen Gold Mine and they use air cars to
transport gold for that reason, essentially pumping into lawnmower engines on
the carts. Here for coal, they use electric vehicles. I guess the EV's can
carry more weight and go further on a charge than the air car. But it was fun
driving one, sounded like a steam engine.
Cheers,
Mark
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:58:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: The air
car??? From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected] Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer |
Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Improving the efficiency of the air pump will have very little effect on the
system, since it's the storage media that is the major problem. Air gets hot
when you compress it, this heat takes away a major amount of your energy and
is basically lost. Oh sure, there are ways to recover some of this heat, but
that just adds expense and very little efficiency. When you decompress the
air it requires heat (the air gets cold) because otherwise you lose
pressure. That's why they have switched to industrial applications. Even
though it's efficiency sucks, it can be lighter than PbA batteries and it's
exhaust is (drum roll) air. If you have some application that requires
non-polluting exhaust and can't afford the weight of batteries, or perhaps
want a faster charge, it might be worth while. For a consumer vehicle for on
road use, it's dissadvantages generally out weight it's few advantages.
> It would be awesome if they actually built those here
in the states. I > saw it on an episode of Beyond Tomorrow. They can go
150Km on a charge > (air) and take roughly 3 hours to recharge. With all of
our work to > improve the effeciency of gas engines (basically air pumps) we
could > take that technology to huge heights. At 1500 lbs though I know the
> government would put restrictions and have to impose crash protection > crap
that would add another 1000 lbs to its weight. > > -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of Mark
McCurdy > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 0:37 > To: [email protected] >
Subject: The air car???
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would think with coal dust being so flammable that an electric vehicle
would be kind of dangerous.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 13:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Air Car?
Hi,
I went to Cripple Creek's Moley Kathleen Gold Mine and they use air
cars to transport gold for that reason, essentially pumping into
lawnmower engines on the carts. Here for coal, they use electric
vehicles. I guess the EV's can carry more weight and go further on a
charge than the air car. But it was fun driving one, sounded like a
steam engine.
Cheers,
Mark
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:58:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE:
The air car??? From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected] Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to
Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Improving the efficiency of the air pump will have very little effect
on the system, since it's the storage media that is the major problem.
Air gets hot when you compress it, this heat takes away a major amount
of your energy and is basically lost. Oh sure, there are ways to
recover some of this heat, but that just adds expense and very little
efficiency. When you decompress the air it requires heat (the air gets
cold) because otherwise you lose pressure. That's why they have
switched to industrial applications. Even though it's efficiency
sucks, it can be lighter than PbA batteries and it's exhaust is (drum
roll) air. If you have some application that requires non-polluting
exhaust and can't afford the weight of batteries, or perhaps want a
faster charge, it might be worth while. For a consumer vehicle for on
road use, it's dissadvantages generally out weight it's few
advantages. > It would be awesome if they actually built those here
in the states. I > saw it on an episode of Beyond Tomorrow. They
can go 150Km on a charge > (air) and take roughly 3 hours to
recharge. With all of our work to > improve the effeciency of gas
engines (basically air pumps) we could > take that technology to huge
heights. At 1500 lbs though I know the > government would put
restrictions and have to impose crash protection > crap that would add
another 1000 lbs to its weight. > > -----Original Message----- >
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On > Behalf Of Mark McCurdy > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 0:37 >
To: [email protected] > Subject: The air car???
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Personally, I think [using PCs in a car] would produce even more
reliability and repairability headaches.
David Roden wrote:
Only if one attempted to actually use a PC.
Agreed. But, that's what's cheap, because it's mass marketed and made
offshore by the millions.
There's no reason that a dedicated team couldn't design hardware and
software suited to the harsh environment of a vehicle, including EVs.
Correct. That's what the auto companies do: Design a custom part that
*is* suitable for use in vehicles. Unfortunately, that makes them
expensive. Also, they choose to keep them proprietary, which further
increases the price. And, they won't standardize, so you have dozens of
equivalent but not interchangeable parts.
In a way, easy access to technology contributes to these problems. It is
currently fashionable to favor quick cheap complex solutions. No one can
be bothered to put extra time into finding good, long-term solutions.
I teach my BEST kids that first ideas are usually bad ideas. They are
usually quick, easy, and obvious; but also tend to be unimaginative,
don't quite fit the problem, don't work all that well, and have
undesirable side effects. So I encourage them to brainstorm; spend a
little more time and come up with a dozen *different* solutions to the
problem. After the first few obvious answers, they start to actually
think, get creative, and come up with better solutions. Then they go on
to the really wild, imaginative solutions that may not be practical yet,
but maybe someday...
The best answers are usually somewhere in the middle. Not the obvious
first ones, or the wild-eyed last ones; but in between. Here you will
find the clever, elegant, "synergistic" solutions as Buckminster Fuller
liked to say.
Here is one such synergistic solution that has occurred to me. Home
electronics are cheap and reliable because they are used indoors, where
it is clean, dry, and the temperature is controlled. Cars have
heating/cooling systems that can do this; but they only work when the
ICE is running. But with EVs, we can run the heating/cooling system
full-time (by keeping it plugged in when not in use). So, you could use
home electronics in a car if you controlled the environment like you do
your house!
I suspect people would love this, too. Imagine, getting into your car
and finding it always comfortable!
If some folks wanted to design an open hardware and software system
for vehicle control as a "labor of love," perhaps over time some
smaller ICE and EV manufacturers might adopt it. There would be no
appreciable return from this... Manufacturers would most likely use
such a standard not because they have any particular regard for the
principle of open design, but rather because it gave them a salable
product for a lower investment.
Frankly, this is why I publish so many ideas and circuits on the EV
list. I can't make any money from them; there is no EV market. But
rather than sit on them, I'll publish them in the hopes that others will
pick up the ball and do something with it. They are idea seeds that I
hope will grow. They certainly won't grow sitting in my pocket!
I can't count the times I have seen one of my ideas get incorporated
into a product. Maybe they discovered it independently; or maybe they
read one of my posts and said "Aha!"
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Making noise is something that is never mentioned. Thanks Mark for posting
this info. I know that much of the experience of driving an EV is the
pleasure of a quiet ride.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 10:08 AM
Subject: The Air Car?
Hi,
I went to Cripple Creek's Moley Kathleen Gold Mine and they use air cars
to transport gold for that reason, essentially pumping into lawnmower
engines on the carts. Here for coal, they use electric vehicles. I guess
the EV's can carry more weight and go further on a charge than the air
car. But it was fun driving one, sounded like a steam engine.
Cheers,
Mark
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:58:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE: The
air car??? From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected] Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer
| Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Improving the efficiency of the air pump will have very little effect on
the system, since it's the storage media that is the major problem. Air
gets hot when you compress it, this heat takes away a major amount of
your energy and is basically lost. Oh sure, there are ways to recover
some of this heat, but that just adds expense and very little
efficiency. When you decompress the air it requires heat (the air gets
cold) because otherwise you lose pressure. That's why they have
switched to industrial applications. Even though it's efficiency sucks,
it can be lighter than PbA batteries and it's exhaust is (drum roll) air.
If you have some application that requires non-polluting exhaust and
can't afford the weight of batteries, or perhaps want a faster charge,
it might be worth while. For a consumer vehicle for on road use, it's
dissadvantages generally out weight it's few advantages. > It
would be awesome if they actually built those here
in the states. I > saw it on an episode of Beyond Tomorrow. They can
go 150Km on a charge > (air) and take roughly 3 hours to recharge.
With all of our work to > improve the effeciency of gas engines
(basically air pumps) we could > take that technology to huge heights.
At 1500 lbs though I know the > government would put restrictions and
have to impose crash protection > crap that would add another 1000 lbs to
its weight. > > -----Original Message----- > From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >
Behalf Of Mark McCurdy > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 0:37 > To:
[email protected] > Subject: The air car???
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date: 11/2/2006
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date: 11/2/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Probably the origin of "explosion proof" ratings on motors. A sealed
induction motor should not spark off coal dust.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3726/is_199711/ai_n8780307
cheers,
Andrew
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
I would think with coal dust being so flammable that an electric vehicle
would be kind of dangerous.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark E. Hanson
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 13:09
To: [email protected]
Subject: The Air Car?
Hi,
I went to Cripple Creek's Moley Kathleen Gold Mine and they use air
cars to transport gold for that reason, essentially pumping into
lawnmower engines on the carts. Here for coal, they use electric
vehicles. I guess the EV's can carry more weight and go further on a
charge than the air car. But it was fun driving one, sounded like a
steam engine.
Cheers,
Mark
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:58:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE:
The air car??? From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected] Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to
Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Improving the efficiency of the air pump will have very little effect
on the system, since it's the storage media that is the major problem.
Air gets hot when you compress it, this heat takes away a major amount
of your energy and is basically lost. Oh sure, there are ways to
recover some of this heat, but that just adds expense and very little
efficiency. When you decompress the air it requires heat (the air gets
cold) because otherwise you lose pressure. That's why they have
switched to industrial applications. Even though it's efficiency
sucks, it can be lighter than PbA batteries and it's exhaust is (drum
roll) air. If you have some application that requires non-polluting
exhaust and can't afford the weight of batteries, or perhaps want a
faster charge, it might be worth while. For a consumer vehicle for on
road use, it's dissadvantages generally out weight it's few
advantages. > It would be awesome if they actually built those here
in the states. I > saw it on an episode of Beyond Tomorrow. They
can go 150Km on a charge > (air) and take roughly 3 hours to
recharge. With all of our work to > improve the effeciency of gas
engines (basically air pumps) we could > take that technology to huge
heights. At 1500 lbs though I know the > government would put
restrictions and have to impose crash protection > crap that would add
another 1000 lbs to its weight. > > -----Original Message----- >
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On > Behalf Of Mark McCurdy > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 0:37 >
To: [email protected] > Subject: The air car???
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ot sent me the message below off-list.
hth,
Andrew
-------- Original Message --------
Can't help you with the spec's, but I can confirm that this was Ot's
test bed truck for controller development before he built the Cal
Poppy and that the Mouse is a controller he developed in the EVCL
years. The truck originally had 40 6V batteries in the bed, so
_maybe_ the Mouse works at 240V, BUT DON'T QUOTE ME ON THAT! Maybe
Ot will chime in here soon...
cheers,
Andrew
Hey Andrew,
I won't chime in cause I'm not on the list anymore. I just get a few
things with key words forwarded to me.
Ya, 600A, enough regen to destroy any motor and it can run up to
240V. But regen should only be used under 120V packs. It's over ten
years old, no factory support! :) I could dig up the manual for it.
It worked pretty well when the 12V system was nice and hot.
(Contactors in there were a bit overloaded and need 13V). I think I
made twelve of those, the rest went to taxi's in New York, or were
supposed to anyway. I still have the first prototype here.
Hope you are well!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks David, your reply was informative. I still think this topology will
potentially simplify charging, some electronic monitoring still needs to
be done, but individual control of battery charging is great. Has anyone
actually done one already?
JJ
> On 1 Nov 2006 at 21:58, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> What if I get 26 separate 12 volt battery chargers and connect them
>> individually across each battery and plug them all into a common plug
>> for charging?
>
> This is what has been called "modular charging." It was a "great hope"
> of several of us on this list about 12 years ago. We figured that not
> only would it provide more even charging, it would also cost less
> because 12v chargers were a mass-market item.
>
> It didn't live up to the promise. When you have 26 chargers you are 26
> times as likely (or 25 times >more< likely, if you'd rather word it that
> way ;-) to have a failure. Also, most of the modular chargers used
> were more- complex switchmode chargers. Ironically, not only the
> complexity, but also the mass-market character worked against
> reliability, since many of the small switchmode chargers were built to
> be cheap, not to be gold-standard reliable.
>
> The problem boils down to this : if one charger fails and you don't know
> it, its battery will be damaged or destroyed, possibly violently, the
> next time you drive the vehicle.
>
> The most successful modular charging has been done with the simplest
> chargers - plain linear transformer chargers with simple cycle-dropping
> control. I think John Bryan is one who's done that; he may weigh in
> about his "blinky" chargers.
>
> I tried some Cliplight-made chargers of this type, and found two
> problems. One was the sheer bulk and weight. Their total weight was
> about as much as a Lester boat-anchor charger, and they took up a LOT
> of room in the car. The other problem was that even with the
> (potentially) higher reliability I still had one charger that, after a
> few weeks, began undercharging its battery.
>
> Modular charging is not hopeless, but it's not the panacea that it
> appears to be at first glance. If you decide to try it, at the very
> least you'll need some way to monitor each individual battery to make
> sure it's properly charged, and shut down the vehicle or prevent
> startup if it isn't.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note:
> mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me. To send
> a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the link, that is exactly what I was
looking for. Now to educate myself on these. Dan Eyk
Daniel Eyk
Vancouver, Wa.
Electric S-10 project
E-15 project
____________________________________________________________________________________
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all. That is what I was looking for. I have
it bookmarked now so I can find it. Dan
Daniel Eyk
Vancouver, Wa.
Electric S-10 project
E-15 project
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the New
Yahoo.com
(http://www.yahoo.com/preview)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
expectations, are very hard on controllers, and notorious
cheapskates; there will be lots of complaining about price, lots of
warranty returns, and lots of customer support.
Think of it from the point of view of a businessman; why SHOULD he
build controllers? No one has provided any reasons why he should
bother!
I think thats why some are pushing for an "open source" style design.
Wouldn't that provide even more disincentive that others are actively
trying to create one that is free? Personally I think the more
choices the better, but IMO actively discouraging creation of what you
need by asking for it free is counter-productive.
In general, open source philosophy isn't concerned about whether or not
a free alternative causes a disincentive (or even supplants commercial
products) in the marketplace.
For a very good example, BIND (A Domain Name Server (DNS) program) is
free and ubiquitous. There are no commercial DNS servers available that
pose any serious competition, because BIND works, and it's free. The
root, TLD, and most of the other Internet name servers (the system that
lets you type in yahoo.com instead of an IP address like 127.0.0.1) all
run BIND. In short the Internet could not exist today if it weren't for
BIND and several other open source projects.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mr. Sharkey is the one in Eugene, but has moved over
near the coast between Mapleton and Florence. He has
used it for several years and if it wasn't legal, I'm
sure by now he would have found out about it. He has a
website that tells about it and other items as well.
Dan Eyk
Daniel Eyk
Vancouver, Wa.
Electric S-10 project
E-15 project
____________________________________________________________________________________
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
(http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
There is not any lack of designs, Otmar gives the schematic for a
curtis controller on his website, so there you go, build a curtis clone.
A schematic that says right on it that it's for reference, and probably
wrong, and has several question marks on it near components.
Additionally, there's no PCB layout, or any other indication of the
necessary physical layout.
I just don't see anyone willing to invest the time and money to
confirm it works just to have some other person copy it and sell a
kit, and then have a price war over who will sell it cheapest, which
is what happens.
Good for the end consumer, yes, but it isn't for the person that did
the hard work.
You're ignoring altruism. It may be difficult to believe, but it does
actually exist. I've personally given away my hard work in software
development, to whomever might want it. For free.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of steam, I was interested to look at some steam car websites
and see they have many of the same advantages of electric engines such
as extreme low end torque and of course no emissions of harmful
polutants. Even if heated by fuel of some sort, because the fuel is not
burned in a high pressure short burst piston container leaving much of
it unburned. Thus you can design very non polluting fuel burning.
Why bring it up? Well it has termendous potential as an ev hybrid!
Instead of an internal combustion gas engine electric hybrid you can
have a steam engine electric hybrid which would be non polluting in most
hybrid modes and less polluting in fuel mode as well as being able to
burn almost any alternative fuel to heat the water. Additionally heat
itself can be both stored from external sources pre travel and
concentrated from the sun on the car so the heat instead of electricity
can be utilized as a form of stored power especially as lithium
hydroxide at a power concentration of 1200 wh/lb (many times any battery
power density) being converted to motion or even electricity by steam on
the car.
Plus the efficiency of solar heat capture on the car can be much more
efficient and less expensive than photovoltaic solar electricity
conversion (which is typical only 10%)
It solves two problems
1. Less pollution for fuel mode in a hybrid car.
2. Immediate cutting dependance on foreign oil because a steam fuel
burner can use ANY fuel.
Lastly there is more chance to get a self power sun car because the
efficiency of on car sun heat capture can be much more effective than on
car sun to electricity conversion not to mention much less expensive..
On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:22 am, Mark E. Hanson wrote:
Hi,
I went to Cripple Creek's Moley Kathleen Gold Mine and they use air
cars to transport gold for that reason, essentially pumping into
lawnmower engines on the carts. Here for coal, they use electric
vehicles. I guess the EV's can carry more weight and go further on a
charge than the air car. But it was fun driving one, sounded like a
steam engine.
Cheers,
Mark
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2006 08:58:48 -0700 (MST) Subject: RE:
The air car??? From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:
[email protected] Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to
Computer | Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
Improving the efficiency of the air pump will have very little effect
on the system, since it's the storage media that is the major
problem. Air gets hot when you compress it, this heat takes away a
major amount of your energy and is basically lost. Oh sure, there
are ways to recover some of this heat, but that just adds expense and
very little efficiency. When you decompress the air it requires heat
(the air gets cold) because otherwise you lose pressure. That's
why they have switched to industrial applications. Even though it's
efficiency sucks, it can be lighter than PbA batteries and it's
exhaust is (drum roll) air. If you have some application that
requires non-polluting exhaust and can't afford the weight of
batteries, or perhaps want a faster charge, it might be worth
while. For a consumer vehicle for on road use, it's dissadvantages
generally out weight it's few advantages. > It would be awesome
if they actually built those here
in the states. I > saw it on an episode of Beyond Tomorrow. They
can go 150Km on a charge > (air) and take roughly 3 hours to
recharge. With all of our work to > improve the effeciency of gas
engines (basically air pumps) we could > take that technology to huge
heights. At 1500 lbs though I know the > government would put
restrictions and have to impose crash protection > crap that would add
another 1000 lbs to its weight. > > -----Original Message----- >
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On > Behalf Of Mark McCurdy > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 0:37 >
To: [email protected] > Subject: The air car???
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I just recently subscribed to this list and I'm glad I finally found a
good EV community to talk to. I've become very interested in EVs
lately and am planning on converting my 1993 Dodge Shadow. I've read
Build your own electric vehicle by Bob Brant and I've learned much
from it. Is a series DC motor still the best to use? I plan on using
a Curtis 1231A controller. I haven't decided on batteries, but I've
done a lot of research on different batteries. I've made a
spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
weight, etc. It can be accessed here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA. I
hope this can help others in finding a suitable battery.
Thanks,
Brandon Kruger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have been asked to be part of an all-day EV workshop at City
College of San Francisco on 11-18. There will be several presenters
covering various EV issues, cars to look at, and Q & A time. The $20
regristration fee includes a pizza lunch. Space is limited. For
registration, contact David Dias at 415-550-4455 or
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
Otmar gives the schematic for a Curtis controller on his website
Eric Poulsen wrote:
A schematic that says right on it that it's for reference, and
probably wrong, and has several question marks on it near components.
Additionally, there's no PCB layout, or any other indication of the
necessary physical layout.
You're ignoring altruism... I've personally given away my hard work
in software development, to whomever might want it. For free.
That's great! So why don't you pick up the ball, and finish tracing out
Otmar's Curtis schematic, and add the PCB layout and mechanical layout?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
