EV Digest 6090
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT: Yaris heater
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Advanced DC L91 For Sale
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New to the list, looking to convert
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Battery Spreadsheet
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Needed for Photo Shoot near Aliso Viejo, CA
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: New to the list, looking to convert
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Discharging in series and charging in parallel
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Battery Spreadsheet
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: The steam electric hybrid vs the air car.
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "John Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
by John Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Yaris heater
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Yaris heater
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Is 5ma a ground fault?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: EV Controllers Manuf. Side
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
> Michael
> Are you sure your problem isn't caused by some kind of malfunction. ( such
> as a bad thermostat, of bad heater controls). Before you modify the car,
> ask others with the same car if they are having the same problem.
>
> And, what car ( make, model, and year) is it?
>
> Phil
I wish that were it. 2005 Neon... too much window area. It heats great,
but defrost kicks on the AC, for a loss in economy, once it gets warm. A
12V heater would be perfect, I think.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a L91 motor (appx 20 hours in vehicle testing time on a curtis 400 amp
controller). If anyone is interested in it, contact me off the list,
Thanks,
Peter
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Altruism is great, especially when all it costs you is time.
Writing software requires nothing but your time.
Developing controllers costs money, often quite a bit of it. The guys
that build controllers have say that when you start to design a controller
you get an empty 5lb coffee can. When the can is full of burned out
silion, your design should just about be finished.
Silicon in those quanties can get a bit pricey. The folks that design the
controllers usually want to recoup at least the cost of the silicon, and
if you're going to do that, you might as well get back some cash for your
time.
Even when you have the layout and schematics, there usually a bit of art
involved in building the controllers. THat usually means that the
designer or someone trained by them must assemble the controller, they
usually want to get paid for their time too.
That being said, I applaud your goal of developig an open source
controller. If you want some help, the folks at 4QD used to have a
subscription site where they shared their designs for controllers. I
don't know if it's still around or if they are charging for the
subscription, but you might want to start there.
> Jack Murray wrote:
>> There is not any lack of designs, Otmar gives the schematic for a
>> curtis controller on his website, so there you go, build a curtis clone.
> A schematic that says right on it that it's for reference, and probably
> wrong, and has several question marks on it near components.
>
> Additionally, there's no PCB layout, or any other indication of the
> necessary physical layout.
>> I just don't see anyone willing to invest the time and money to
>> confirm it works just to have some other person copy it and sell a
>> kit, and then have a price war over who will sell it cheapest, which
>> is what happens.
>> Good for the end consumer, yes, but it isn't for the person that did
>> the hard work.
> You're ignoring altruism. It may be difficult to believe, but it does
> actually exist. I've personally given away my hard work in software
> development, to whomever might want it. For free.
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There aren't enoung pusher trailers around for lawmakers to notice. In
fact it's entirely possible that not a single congressmen has ever heard
of them.
SInce they don't generally sit around trying to think up laws to prevent
things that haven't demonstrated any problems, let alone things they never
heard of, I doubt there is a law anywhere about them.
> Mr. Sharkey is the one in Eugene, but has moved over
> near the coast between Mapleton and Florence. He has
> used it for several years and if it wasn't legal, I'm
> sure by now he would have found out about it. He has a
> website that tells about it and other items as well.
> Dan Eyk
>
> Daniel Eyk
> Vancouver, Wa.
>
> Electric S-10 project
> E-15 project
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
> (http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Brandon. This is the place th get info on those inevitable choices and
problems you will come up with in the process.
Have you seen Jerry Halstead's conversion diaries? www.evconvert.com. Start
with his first, a mazda 626. He's halfway through his second, a ford probe.
It takes while to go through, but you learn every little thing that has to be
dealt with. He also has a lot of battery info.
Yeah, for DC systems, most still use the series wound DC brushed motor. Rock
solid and hard to beat from a cost and performance standpoint. Advanced DC and
WarP by netgain (www.go-ev.com) are the major brands. There are others out
there, too, and I'm sure you'll see them in the album.
You have looked at the photo album, haven't you? www.evalbum.com. You can
search by make or model or by component types. It's VERY helpful when trying
to figure out how others have approached a certain problem. For example when
working on my Fiero, I looked at the battery placement all the others picked to
see what would work.
I like the shadow/sundance/etc. Not too complicated, not too heavy (though
it's not the lightest donor you could find, it's still not bad, and it has a
lot of benefits which outweigh this, if you'll pardon the pun), space for
batteries, still looks good, lots of parts available, disc brake upgrades from
junked Daytonas or lasers, etc., relatively easy to work on. You'll need a 10
mm socket...
The current curtis model is the 1231C.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Brandon Kruger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, November 2, 2006 2:43:41 PM
Subject: New to the list, looking to convert
Hi,
I just recently subscribed to this list and I'm glad I finally found a
good EV community to talk to. I've become very interested in EVs
lately and am planning on converting my 1993 Dodge Shadow. I've read
Build your own electric vehicle by Bob Brant and I've learned much
from it. Is a series DC motor still the best to use? I plan on using
a Curtis 1231A controller. I haven't decided on batteries, but I've
done a lot of research on different batteries. I've made a
spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
weight, etc. It can be accessed here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA. I
hope this can help others in finding a suitable battery.
Thanks,
Brandon Kruger
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There aren't enoung pusher trailers around for lawmakers to notice. In
> fact it's entirely possible that not a single congressmen has ever heard
> of them.
>
> SInce they don't generally sit around trying to think up laws to prevent
> things that haven't demonstrated any problems, let alone things they never
> heard of, I doubt there is a law anywhere about them.
I think your last point is the one that could make them illegal, at least
here. Any vehicle not specified in statutes is, by definition, illegal.
<sigh> I'd think you could get away w/ it for nearly forever, though. What
officer is going to think to stop you for hauling a VW trailer around?
But it would be interesting what would happen in states that have
pollution inspections. Would it require inspection?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good job on the battery spreadsheet Brandon! I'd been searching for
something like that myself. What about adding the common Dyno and
Interstate batteries? Specs for each are here:
http://www.dynobattery.com/prod01.htm
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/www_2001/content/products/product_golfcar.asp
And a column for Peukert's number would make it pretty complete!
______________________________________________________________________
Brandon Kruger wrote: I've made a
> spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
> weight, etc. It can be accessed here:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA. I
> hope this can help others in finding a suitable battery.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:32 AM, Roderick Wilde wrote:
Hi All, A beutiful young environmentally bent model from Southern
California needs an EV for a photo shoot this coming Saturday in Aliso
Viejo. I know this is short notice. Anyone with a very clean
photogenic EV please contact Jon through her My Space web site.
www.myspace.com/genre
Funny, she doesn't look like she's 77 years old....
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date:
11/2/2006
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Brandon, and All
At 02:43 PM 2/11/06 -0500, Brandon Kruger wrote:
Hi,
I just recently subscribed to this list and I'm glad I finally found a
good EV community to talk to.
Welcome to the list. You can't get a better forum to learn in, but be
prepared to be buffeted a bit.
I've become very interested in EVs
lately and am planning on converting my 1993 Dodge Shadow. I've read
Build your own electric vehicle by Bob Brant and I've learned much
from it. Is a series DC motor still the best to use?
Best? Not on most parameters. Most appropriate? Usually. Most
cost-effective? usually. Series DC gives great torque relative to the size
of the motor, but no regenerative braking and (as with all brushed motors)
a little bit of maintenance now and then. It is as much in the
implementation as in the choice of hardware.
I plan on using a Curtis 1231A controller.
Not knowing what a Dodge Shadow is, I don't know how heavy that is. The
intent to use a 1231A tends to imply that you are looking to do as low a
cost conversion as you can get away with, but that may not be appropriate
for your useage. Any vehicle can be made to be an EV, and many have, from
tiny Fiats to Hummers (the real ones, not the fake ones) and trucks. But
every vehicle is a compromise one way or another. Want cheap? then you will
find it hard to get speed or range. Prepared to pay what it takes? then you
can have a very nice, powerful, long-range EV.
Brandon, what are your goals for this vehicle? What is your intended use
pattern? Do you intend to commute to work, if so how far at what patterns?
Can you charge at work? Do you need good acceleration to merge onto a
high-speed road? All these things affect the design, and may make it so
that your Shadow may be an inappropriate vehicle, or that you will be
forced into a certain methodology to achieve your ends (e.g. a large
[heavy] battery pack may be needed for range but you may need good
acceleration to merge, resulting in a need to have a much more powerful
controller than what Curtis can provide).
I haven't decided on batteries, but I've
done a lot of research on different batteries. I've made a
spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
weight, etc.
I haven't looked at your spreadsheet, but if you've analysed 50 types of
lead-acid batteries, that's about 40 more models than are actually used
successfully in EVs, mostly due to the limited number of batteries that can
sustain the amperages needed for an EV.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James (in Australia)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Jack Murray wrote:
Otmar gives the schematic for a Curtis controller on his website
Eric Poulsen wrote:
A schematic that says right on it that it's for reference, and
probably wrong, and has several question marks on it near components.
Additionally, there's no PCB layout, or any other indication of the
necessary physical layout.
You're ignoring altruism... I've personally given away my hard work
in software development, to whomever might want it. For free.
That's great! So why don't you pick up the ball, and finish tracing
out Otmar's Curtis schematic, and add the PCB layout and mechanical
layout?
1) I don't have a Curtis controller to trace.
2) The Curtis design isn't all that great (as you've pointed out)
3) I'm not an EE, but I pretend to be one at home. Perhaps you know
someone who's more qualified?
I think you're missing the points I'm trying to make:
1) I was dismantling Jacks straw man argument. Good schematics for
building a high-power on-road EV motor controller don't exist for free
on the web (or anywhere else), as far as I know. Saying "here's a
Curtis schematic, but nobody builds them because there's no demand for
an open schematic" is ridiculous. Nobody builds them because the
schematic is error-prone and not nearly enough to build a controller.
If there were good schematics, PCB layouts, parts lists, etc available
for such a controller, I'd be willing to bet that someone (who lacks the
skills to design it) would at least attempt to build and use it.
2) There are indeed people who exist who are good at what they do, and
release their intellectual property to the public domain for the good of
others. My particular expertise is software. I've written a lot of it,
and given quite a bit of it away, mostly on a personal basis, as well as
more formally (see: http://sourceforge.net/projects/codeg).
Unfortunately, this sort of thinking doesn't seem to permeate much into
the minds of those whose expertise is electronics hardware.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:02 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks David, your reply was informative. I still think this topology
will
potentially simplify charging, some electronic monitoring still needs
to
be done, but individual control of battery charging is great. Has
anyone
actually done one already?
John Bryan's Ghia:
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/034.html>
He has 16 single-battery chargers (made by ZAP) that he took apart and
mounted inside the rear fenders, with some extra cooling. He saved
some weight that way, too. You can see eight of them (well, at least
their indicator lights) in the last picture.
Rick Woodbury's Tango, with a Lee-Hart designed charging system:
<http://www.commutercars.com/>
Each battery got a computerized module that charged it individually and
logged battery data to a central computer. An expensive system,
because each battery module cost at least $200, plus there was the
central computer - and it required a Manzanita Micro PFC charger as
well for the power supply to run current to the modules.
The idea was so that someone with no time for (or interest in)
maintaining their batteries (like George Clooney :) ) could just let
the car worry about the batteries and hang the cost of the system.
There are others. Google brings up:
<http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/048.html>
<http://www.madkatz.com/charger.html>
<http://www.econogics.com/Soneil/sonindex.htm>
<http://www.evsource.com/evs_blog.php>
JJ
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Added! If anyone could find prices for any of these batteries it
would be greatly appreciated. Also, I'm not familiar with "Peukert's
number", I'll look it up.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Brandon Kruger
On 11/2/06, Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Good job on the battery spreadsheet Brandon! I'd been searching for
something like that myself. What about adding the common Dyno and
Interstate batteries? Specs for each are here:
http://www.dynobattery.com/prod01.htm
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/www_2001/content/products/product_golfcar.asp
And a column for Peukert's number would make it pretty complete!
______________________________________________________________________
Brandon Kruger wrote: I've made a
> spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
> weight, etc. It can be accessed here:
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA. I
> hope this can help others in finding a suitable battery.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Altruism is great, especially when all it costs you is time.
Writing software requires nothing but your time.
I've given away my (rather modest) hardware designs, including
microcontroller source. Just a simple melting furnace power control,
but still.
Developing controllers costs money, often quite a bit of it. The guys
that build controllers have say that when you start to design a controller
you get an empty 5lb coffee can. When the can is full of burned out
silion, your design should just about be finished.
Yeah, I've heard this, too. Considering how big some of the IGBTs are,
that's not a lot of them. A buncha smaller MOSFETs, maybe.
Silicon in those quanties can get a bit pricey. The folks that design the
controllers usually want to recoup at least the cost of the silicon, and
if you're going to do that, you might as well get back some cash for your
time.
What's the typical markup on a controller?
Even when you have the layout and schematics, there usually a bit of art
involved in building the controllers. THat usually means that the
designer or someone trained by them must assemble the controller, they
usually want to get paid for their time too.
I think that if you have a kit with well-written assembly instructions,
and someone who's at least somewhat (electronics) mechanically inclined
could build one. It's certainly not for everyone, but there is some
degree of mechanical aptitude among the home EV converters.
That being said, I applaud your goal of developig an open source
controller. If you want some help, the folks at 4QD used to have a
subscription site where they shared their designs for controllers. I
don't know if it's still around or if they are charging for the
subscription, but you might want to start there.
I'll take a peek. I suspect that their designs are still covered under
IP laws.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 12:28:04PM -0500, David Roden wrote:
> There's no reason that a
> dedicated team couldn't design hardware and software suited to the harsh
> environment of a vehicle, including EVs.
http://www.pc104.org/
You can find x86 PCs that will survive harsh conditions in the PC/104
form factor. Many of them can be powered from 7 -> 60 volts (won't live
though a non-isolated charger, but sill a good range), have all soldered
components, and are passively cooled.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: The steam electric hybrid vs the air car.
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 2006 10:40:31 -0800
Speaking of steam, I was interested to look at some steam car websites and
see they have many of the same advantages of electric engines such as
extreme low end torque and of course no emissions of harmful polutants.
Even if heated by fuel of some sort, because the fuel is not burned in a
high pressure short burst piston container leaving much of it unburned.
Thus you can design very non polluting fuel burning.
Modern ICE cars are VERY good at reducing pollutants - all of them except
the one that's the primary cause of global warming - CO2.
There is no way ( even in a steam engine) that CO2 production can be reduced
aside from burning less fuel.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to recall a website where a gentlemen had converted a Honda Civic to
electric. Then he took a totaled civic, and made a trailer out of it.
Basically removed the passenger compartment and put a heavy duty tow bar,
etc. on it. He then wired it to his cruise control in the EV! To operate
it, he would start it up from within the EV and accelerate down the road.
When he reached 30 mph, he engaged the cruise control and used the pusher to
accelerate to highway speeds. The EV would then coast. The pusher would
automatically drop to idle when the brake was tapped.
My question is, what are you trying to prove? If you are looking for a way
to be able to take your EV on a long distance trip, then this solution might
be a good one. But, to intentionally build a glider sans engine or motor to
push around with trailer? The whole point of the EV is that it is cleaner
and more efficient right? That violates that premise. Why would you want
to do it? And, given the numbers of EV's out there, and the even smaller
number of EV's whose owners would go to the added expense of building a
pusher trailer, and, for those who do, the limited number of miles that the
EV enthusiast is going to drive with this thing belching smoke pushing him
or her around... I doubt that there is going to be much damage to the
environment. I would register the pusher as a trailer, and not draw a bunch
of attention to what it's purpose is when you register it. There are
bunches of trailers out there with ICE's on them. They are generators and
compressors and pumps. They for sure belch more smoke out than anything
this group of environmentally conscience EV enthusiasts would come up with,
and don't need any special smog check.
--
John Cooper
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 12:28:04PM -0500, David Roden wrote:
There's no reason that a
dedicated team couldn't design hardware and software suited to the harsh
environment of a vehicle, including EVs.
http://www.pc104.org/
You can find x86 PCs that will survive harsh conditions in the PC/104
form factor. Many of them can be powered from 7 -> 60 volts (won't live
though a non-isolated charger, but sill a good range), have all soldered
components, and are passively cooled.
These cool little PCs are pricey though. $300 - $500 for the SBC (133Mhz
5x86 with 64M RAM), add $25-$50 for the flash disk and $50-$250 for the
case with PS. $500 - $800 total. I could buy a heck of a lot of
microcontroller SBCs and cases for that much... PCs in cars will always
seem a bit wasteful to me.
For those interested, these are plenty powerful to handle managing all
the systems in an EV:
Crazy amount of features -
http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_33&products_id=198
+ http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?products_id=196
My favorite -
http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_48&products_id=109
Cheaper -
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=26
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=38
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=20
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=773
Want your car on the internet?
http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_23&products_id=196
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=7830
That's just two suppliers among many. Have fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do you want it to do?
SBCs are ok for displaying stuff, but you would generally not use it for
a low-level task like generating PWM or reading current.
The low-level stuff is the domain of microcontrollers. Microcontrollers
cost next to nothing (like a $5 chip), require only a few external
components, take very little power, and are far more reliable. They are
easy to seal against the environment.
Microcontrollers can drive a limited type of graphical LCD with a
built-in controller. Most of the readily available ones are 256x128 or
less, monochrome, and do not support grayscales. There are full color
ones which are usually very small ones meant for cell phones. The thing
that's difficult is driving a VGA/XGA or whatever conventional computer
display. There are only a few special-purpose external controller chips
available to allow a microcontroller to drive a display like that.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Nick Austin wrote:
On Thu, Nov 02, 2006 at 12:28:04PM -0500, David Roden wrote:
There's no reason that a dedicated team couldn't design hardware and
software suited to the harsh environment of a vehicle, including
EVs.
http://www.pc104.org/
You can find x86 PCs that will survive harsh conditions in the PC/104
form factor. Many of them can be powered from 7 -> 60 volts (won't live
though a non-isolated charger, but sill a good range), have all soldered
components, and are passively cooled.
These cool little PCs are pricey though. $300 - $500 for the SBC
(133Mhz 5x86 with 64M RAM), add $25-$50 for the flash disk and
$50-$250 for the case with PS. $500 - $800 total. I could buy a heck
of a lot of microcontroller SBCs and cases for that much... PCs in
cars will always seem a bit wasteful to me.
For those interested, these are plenty powerful to handle managing all
the systems in an EV:
Crazy amount of features -
http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_33&products_id=198
+ http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?products_id=196
My favorite -
http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_48&products_id=109
Cheaper -
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=26
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=38
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=20
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=773
Want your car on the internet?
http://www.modtronix.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_23&products_id=196
http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=7830
That's just two suppliers among many. Have fun!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:
I seem to recall a website where a gentlemen had converted a Honda Civic to
electric. Then he took a totaled civic, and made a trailer out of it.
Basically removed the passenger compartment and put a heavy duty tow bar,
etc. on it. He then wired it to his cruise control in the EV! To operate
it, he would start it up from within the EV and accelerate down the road.
When he reached 30 mph, he engaged the cruise control and used the pusher to
accelerate to highway speeds. The EV would then coast. The pusher would
automatically drop to idle when the brake was tapped.
That would be me. It isn't really a tow bar, it is actually a fairly
conventional trailer tongue. Since then I have temporarily added a
manual throttle to allow the pusher to handle taking off from a stop
and getting the EV up to cruising speed without using an battery
power at all. With some more development it could be quite useful,
but it's primary purpose is simply to get the EV to displays too far
away to get to on electric power alone and so far it seems to handle
that just fine. I would prefer an all electric solution and I am
considering looking into a battery trailer instead. The pusher is in
the Album at:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/753
I have a co-worker who keeps suggesting an electric pusher trailer,
but I just can't see the value. Trailers are a bit of a pain,
especially backing up, and dragging one around town all the time
would be a bit much for me. With the added weight and drag of the
ICE drive train the EV performance and range would be pretty dismal.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm curious as to whether a replacement was ever determined for
the Panasonic VRLA batteries originally in the 97 S-10EV. Is that still
a no-go without seriously hacking the truck? Sorry for not replying
directly to the post shown below from the archives but it pre-dates
my list membership. It seems a shame that another factory EV has become
a dead end.
John
*********************************************
RE: S-10 oem on eBay
What everyone else said. Basically they're a wierd size battery that is
no
longer available, and the box has the thermal management integrated in
to it,
plus sensors going to individual batteries. Granted it should be
possible to
possibly make the BMS happy with something else, having seen the battery
box out
of one of these it would be quite a feat to get it all to work happily.
I foregot their name, but someone bought the last one off eBay with the
battery box all hacked up where someone had tried making their own
battery box
arrangement and last I heard he was talking with EVBones about possibly
getting
a stock box to try and put it back together.
Deffinitely not an easy backyard project.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Remind me what is wrong with replacing the original Panasonic VRLA
batteries with other SLA, either gel or AGM chemistry?
The specs http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/chvs10.pdf tell me
that the pack is only 48 Ah at C/2 rate and it has 40-60 miles
range with lead (and careful, constant speed driving).
This can easily be achieved again by a battery replacement,
I do not see why the truck would not be usable as is with
fresh batteries. (Saves a lot of money ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: S-10 oem on eBay
This will be interesting to see how much it goes for. Since the
batteries
are dead and the PbA batteries are no longer available about the only
option
with this would be to just ship it to EVBones and have a NiMH retrofit
done.
I've talked with Jeff and they said these trucks are so heavily
integrated
there's almost no chance you could ever put any other battery in there
other
than what's supposed to be in there.
At least the seller is being honest. There is another owner of one of
these trucks locally who I think was the original owner and he put
50,000
miles on the original PbA pack before it finally was done. He did this
by
never taking it below 50%. This was a few years ago I saw the truck
right
before they got a new pack, so I'm guessing it must have been one of the
last lead packs obtainable right at the end of the EV1 support.
Dang it looks like it's in good shape otherwise.
Mike Ellis wrote:
He posted his response, they batts are dead.
So tempting.
-Mike
On 4/10/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> 1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
>
> As a 1997, it would have been built with PbA batteries, so I think the
> posted range was optimistic in '97, and very optimistic now if it
still
> has the original 9 year old pack in it. I have sent a question to the
> seller asking if the batteries have been replaced. The truck itself
> looks to be nice. These finds always leave me wondering where the
truck
> has been hiding for the past 9 years.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you, Roland. I'll have to look around to see if there's anything
available locally, or to find a pix of one of these units. I used to use a
room heater in my VW vans (1982 and earlier) and that worked well enough.
This car doesn't have room for too large a heater, though... and running
wires could be "fun". I could possibly mount a unit on the cage behind the
seats. (I have a "gate" to keep the dogs in the back and dog-proof any mods
anywhere in the car.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: Yaris heater
> These are cab heaters, that are mounted inside the cab. My heaters which
I
> have two in addition of the heater core heater, are mounted under the dash
> way back by the fire wall.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, would you consider sharing more info on how this unit works? How do
you control the throttle and kick it into neutral when you are at speed? Do
you keep the original brakes and use them?
My car rolls fairly easily, so the EV trailer sounds like an interesting
possibility... sort of the reverse of what you've done. One should get
approx the same range, if the car has a manual tranny, I'd think. Drop the
trailer and have a fully functioning (unmodified) auto. With the 3000 lb
"small" cars of today, it could take a fair amount of batts to get 25 miles
of range, however. Granted, you'd still have the weight of the
engine/exhaust to push around, but most of your weight would be on the
trailer.
It could be a way of doing a mod, though... and still keeping your brand-new
car brand new. If it's traded in, all you'd need would be a new trailer
hitch and cable run, and you'd be set up. If you run out of juice, kick the
EV into neutral and drag it w/ the ICE.
...just thinking out loud...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> That would be me. It isn't really a tow bar, it is actually a fairly
> conventional trailer tongue. Since then I have temporarily added a
> manual throttle to allow the pusher to handle taking off from a stop
> and getting the EV up to cruising speed without using an battery
> power at all. With some more development it could be quite useful,
> but it's primary purpose is simply to get the EV to displays too far
> away to get to on electric power alone and so far it seems to handle
> that just fine. I would prefer an all electric solution and I am
> considering looking into a battery trailer instead. The pusher is in
> the Album at:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Michael,
These units are made by Phillips which are in a full sheet metal enclosure
with a grills and have a U-bracket for mounting.
The sizes of theses are about 3 inches high by 6 inches wide and 4 to 6
inches deep. They have a built in fan.
I bought these units back in 1985, could search on line for these. My local
auto parts store still have a catalog on Phillips heaters of all sizes and
types.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: Yaris heater
> Thank you, Roland. I'll have to look around to see if there's anything
> available locally, or to find a pix of one of these units. I used to use a
> room heater in my VW vans (1982 and earlier) and that worked well enough.
> This car doesn't have room for too large a heater, though... and running
> wires could be "fun". I could possibly mount a unit on the cage behind the
> seats. (I have a "gate" to keep the dogs in the back and dog-proof any
> mods
> anywhere in the car.)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 7:04 AM
> Subject: Re: Yaris heater
>
>
> > These are cab heaters, that are mounted inside the cab. My heaters
> > which
> I
> > have two in addition of the heater core heater, are mounted under the
> > dash
> > way back by the fire wall.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This evening I had some problems with my USE S10 truck (302v BB600 NiCD
pack, 30ah). It would not power to Ready, was faulting out. A check with
my laptop was showing an ISO fault.
So I did a quick check with a VOM on the pre-charge pins of the battery
pack. From B+ to frame ground I saw 280 volts, from B- I saw about 35
volts. Not too unusual, but then I switched the meter to ma.
To keep bad things from happening, the pre-charge line is fused to 2a
with a 600v AIR DC fuse. I figured if there was a dead short in there,
the fuse would blow as the meter exploded. For safety I donned a pair of
dry leather welding gloves and put on a face mask.
Tiny spark when connected to ground, meter read 4-5ma. Definately odd,
but is a 5ma leak enough to constitute a danger/is that more than just
capacitance in a large battery pack? This is a flooded NiCD pack, BB600's.
Thanks for any thoughts.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The newer GM ECM is a dual core powerPC 405. It can run linux, but so
can my phone. bits is bits. The processor doesn't care. The only reason
we mention linux is that it is processor agnostic. A real time kernel
that can handle threads really simplifys codeing and can fit on a floppy
(or in what is now just a corner of the on board flash). The
microcontrollers use SPI, I2C etc and so can a linux kernel, It is all a
blur nowadays, no real distinct divisions anymore. The question really
is where for each product does the added abstraction makeing coding
easier intersect with the added power needed to use said abstraction.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> Developing controllers costs money, often quite a bit of it. The guys
> that build controllers have say that when you start to design a controller
> you get an empty 5lb coffee can. When the can is full of burned out
> silion, your design should just about be finished.
>
> Silicon in those quanties can get a bit pricey. The folks that design the
> controllers usually want to recoup at least the cost of the silicon, and
> if you're going to do that, you might as well get back some cash for your
> time.
>
> Even when you have the layout and schematics, there usually a bit of art
> involved in building the controllers. THat usually means that the
> designer or someone trained by them must assemble the controller, they
> usually want to get paid for their time too.
>
Designing reliable electric vehicle controllers is no easy task. The
customer wants all the options: lotsa current capability, voltage to 350
volts, instant precharge, adjustable motor current, adjustable battery
current, throttle protection, motor voltage limit, over speed protection,
and can you throw in a tach circuit, too? And the customer wants the EV
controller in a small package, able to take the hot summer Tucson heat.
They want it now, and they want it cheap.
Yep, that's the way it is in the EV manufacturing field. I've been
building EV components for over twenty years now, including controllers in
the 80's:
http://www.russcoev.com/history.html
Back twenty years, controllers had a maximum frequency of about 4000 hz.,
due to the current power switches available: Darlington transistors. The
Motorola transistors cost $26, had very slow switching rates; ten
microseconds storage time was the norm. The "Curtis Squeal" was prevalent
in all transistor controllers.
Today's customers require a silent controller. Silence means switching
above the audible hearing range, around 15 kHz. But, silence isn't golden
in controller design. The current IGBT's can be switched at 15 kHz, but
requires not only proper electronic design but proper component layout to
avoid problems caused by magnetic induced fields wrecking havoc at 800
amps.
Assuming the EV controller designer succeeds in a successful controller,
parts cost and procurement can be insurmountable goals to achieve. The
typical controller using IGBT modules will use 300, 400, or 600 amp dual
modules, costing from $200 to $400 each. Two or three modules will be
required. The modules are produced from "unobtainable $$ siliconix"; the
translation: Very expensive, none in stock. Delivery is currently running
four to six months.
With such long delivery times, it's only practicable to order a large
enough quantity to make perhaps 100 controllers. At two modules per
controller costing $250 each, that's a cool $50,000 for IGBT's. And the
desirable film bus capacitors have a 40 week lead time. Better get some
of them, too, at about $200 per controller. That's another $20,000. So
far, $70,000 just for the long lead time components for 100 controllers.
That's gonna require a second on the house. And payments of just over
$1000 per month. Better apply for that night job at Home Depot. And what
about all the other parts for that controller? Just add some $$ and some
more $$.
Six months down the line when the parts arrive, controller production can
begin. But, suppose in the mean time, another company started producing
complete controllers for half your proposed price? Or, once the
controllers are in the field, they take the Corbin route, and fail? It's
happened before. Damon and the Auburn boys both made good controller, but
failed to establish a profitable business.
It's hard enough to design a reliable controller. The business risk are
many. The monetary cost are extremely high. And, unfortunately, the loss
of profit and risk of losing everything in your life are great.
And that's the other side of the controller story.
Russ Kaufmann
RUSSCO Engineering
Now In Grants Pass, Oregon
The Other PFC Charger With Built In GFCI
--- End Message ---
