EV Digest 6093
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Adjustable Vacuum switch source
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Female spline motors, was: Re: Two Motor and Controller Setup
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Trojan 6V-AGM
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Female spline motors, was: Re: Two Motor and Controller Setup
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Trojan 6V-AGM
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
by John Nicholson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Battery Spreadsheet
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pickup truck drag
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Mr. Wilde and Mr. Rhodes are using IOTAs with good results.
If you figure 240VAC is 336V peak, you're probably okay up to 336VDC.
MARK DUTKO wrote:
I'm looking for a dc/dc for the Yaris that is high amperage and was
wondering if anyone has used the IOTA product with a higher voltage pack?
My pack will be 192-204V and the IOTA 55 or 75A AC/DC specs are as
follows:
108-132V model- can go to 180V DC as per Iota sales
220-240V model (55A MAX) - Not know yet by Iota as to how far outside
the range or if DC can be used
Has anyone used the 108 model with a high pack voltage or the 220
model with a 192 or lower pack voltage with any success?
Thanks,
Mark
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls22055.htm
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls75.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Spoke to Lawrence thanks, I'm hoping to find the upper and lower
limits for each unit respectively...
On Nov 3, 2006, at 2:28 PM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
I believe Mr. Wilde and Mr. Rhodes are using IOTAs with good results.
If you figure 240VAC is 336V peak, you're probably okay up to 336VDC.
MARK DUTKO wrote:
I'm looking for a dc/dc for the Yaris that is high amperage and
was wondering if anyone has used the IOTA product with a higher
voltage pack?
My pack will be 192-204V and the IOTA 55 or 75A AC/DC specs are
as follows:
108-132V model- can go to 180V DC as per Iota sales
220-240V model (55A MAX) - Not know yet by Iota as to how far
outside the range or if DC can be used
Has anyone used the 108 model with a high pack voltage or the 220
model with a 192 or lower pack voltage with any success?
Thanks,
Mark
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls22055.htm
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls75.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The guys in the USE group pointed out that my vacuum switch just needs
a good tap to start going again. Sure enough! So I've got a relay
coming that will take the current instead of the vac switch. That
should get some more life out of it.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm desparate for an adjustable vacuum switch. Any sources out there?
> Mine has died in a shorted condition and the 5 amps to run the vacuum
> pump is just a waste of power. 1/4" male pipe thread is best, but 1/8"
> will do.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:10 PM 3/11/06 -0700, Doug Weathers wrote:
Whoops, I linked to the thumbnail. Here's the big people version:
<http://www.nedra.com/photos/pso04/silverbullet_motors_640.jpg>
G'day All
A couple of days ago there was discussion of using female splined motors,
ex-forklift types. Here is Silver Bullet with motors with male shafts
coupled up to shafts that take the belt that drives the input to the
driveline (I can't recall if the car still uses the gearbox, but that
doesn't matter for this bit of discussion).
Replace those shafts that the pulleys are on with shafts with splines on to
match the motor and away you go with female splined forklift motors.
This could also be a way to get a motor that is too big for the space in a
front-wheel drive vehicle to able to be used - Put the motor higher in the
engine bay, or further forward (depending on if the issue is length to the
inner guard or diameter to the drive shaft).
Although IIRC comment has been made about the amount of noise from the
belts in Silver Bullet, but my belts-n-bearings dealer tells me that there
are some very quiet versions of toothed belts, the most quiet version that
he has has an added groove along the bottom of the tooth, something like
(view with fixed-width font):
----------------(top of belt)
__ ___ __
\_n_/ \_n_/
Although I understand that for truly quiet operation vented pulleys are
needed as well.
Just my $0.02
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 220V model does work on DC. I'm running a 228V pack and others are running
higher voltages. One recently confirmed it worked while charging to 354V, IIRC.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 4:36:23 PM
Subject: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
I'm looking for a dc/dc for the Yaris that is high amperage and was
wondering if anyone has used the IOTA product with a higher voltage
pack?
My pack will be 192-204V and the IOTA 55 or 75A AC/DC specs are as
follows:
108-132V model- can go to 180V DC as per Iota sales
220-240V model (55A MAX) - Not know yet by Iota as to how far outside
the range or if DC can be used
Has anyone used the 108 model with a high pack voltage or the 220
model with a 192 or lower pack voltage with any success?
Thanks,
Mark
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls22055.htm
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls75.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It has the ability to run PWM on 3 separate legs with different phases.
This is an essential feature for controlling a 3-phase AC motor. Many
chips have multiple PWM inputs but few have the capacity for phase
control like this.
Basically if you just want to do PWM on a single transistor for a DC
motor controller, any of the Microchip PWMs (including this series) are
appropriate. If you want to do a synchronous rectifier to avoid diode
losses, you need a multiple output PWM with programmable dead time
insertion like the PIC18F1320 (or this series). For a true 3-ph AC
drive, this is the type of PWM needed.
The ADC is pretty fast. If you want, you might be able to analyze the
waveform of the A/C current. Well, not sure what that does for you but
I don't know much about A/C motors.
It's got a UART too, from my evaluation of the task at hand this is
essential. More than enough RAM & ROM. Special Features include the
standard WDT, FSCM, BOR, & ICSP. I also looked it up and it's supported
by the ICD2 for In Circuit Debugging which is really helpful.
Basically it looks like a fine choice for the job.
Now I'm fairly certain a controller would need 2 microcontrollers
because there's the frame-grounded signal side and the HV pack-grounded
side. It's probably not the easiest and most effective/reliable
solution to drive the main transistors through isolated signals and it
may not be all that practical to read the analog signals (like a pedal)
through optoisolators. That's where I think an optically isolated
serial link between them would be most effective. This means the
hardware serial port is occupied and I'd generally want to have a second
external serial port for talking to a computer, palm pilot, EVilBus,
whatever. Unfortunately not many (none, I think) of the DIP pkg PICs
have dual hardware serial ports (UARTs). Not that a TQFP surface mount
is a really serious problem though.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
On a related note, MicroChip has a new microcontroller lineup designed
for Motor Controllers:
PIC18F2331/2431/4331/4431
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/39616b.pdf
They even made a 800W BLDC/AC induction demo board around these chips,
with a combination hardware-based current limit interrupt + a software
controlled current limit mode:
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/DS-51453a.pdf
These *could* perhaps be used as a handy basis for a "universal" motor
controller - DC Series, BLDC, AC Induction - simply add the
appropriate daughter board and upload the correct firmware...
Just brainstorming here ;-)
14-bit Power Control PWM Module:
* Up to 4 channels with complementary outputs
* Edge- or center-aligned operation
* Flexible dead-band generator
* Hardware fault protection inputs (safety interlocks?)
* Simultaneous update of duty cycle and period -
Flexible special event trigger output
Motion Feedback Module:
* Three independent input capture channels -
Flexible operating modes for period and pulse width measurement
* Special Hall Sensor interface module
* Special event trigger output to other modules (simplifies programming)
* Quadrature Encoder Interface -
2 phase inputs and one index input from encoder
High and low position tracking with direction status and change of
direction interrupt
Velocity measurement
High-Speed, 200 Ksps 10-bit A/D Converter:
* Up to 9 channels
* Simultaneous two-channel sampling
* Sequential sampling: 1, 2 or 4 selected channels
* Auto-conversion capability
* 4-word FIFO with selectable interrupt frequency
* Selectable external conversion triggers
* Programmable acquisition time
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does the efficiency of a motor go up or down with size?
Just out of curiousity would a thouasand toy electric car motors linked
to a drive wheel by a rim gear on the wheel be more or less efficient
and or costly than a single large motor of similiar output running
through a tranny? (Wonder what the torque is of those tiny motorific
type toy car motors.)
Keep in mind you could turn off the portion of tiny motors you aren't
using at any speed or acceleration mode.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FYI
Universal Power Group also has 6V AGMs, the largest is
marked to be a sealed Golf Cart battery replacement.
Type: UB-GC2
Volts: 6V
Cap: 200Ah (20h rate)
size: 10.25 x 7.06 x 10.19 (lxwxh)
weight: 64#
price: $245 retail; ($118.75 dealer for $2500+ order)
For 26 pcs you are just over the $3k mark.
Hope this helps with issues nr 3 and 4.
Lee's Zener-regs can easily be adapted to 6V from 12V
(using 2x 3V zener or leaving one zener out from
the 6.2V + 6.8V zener with lightbulb in between)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Adrian DeLeon
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 2:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Trojan 6V-AGM
Does anyone have experience with these batteries?
Nearly identical to T-105s in size/weight. Only available with APW posts
(marine dual terminals). I'm thinking better acceleration than T-105s with
similar range. They list for ~$190 from places that sell T-105s for $150!
Possible issues:
1) Finding regs for 6V AGMs (can a Rudman reg be modified for 6V
operation?)
2) Charging/equalizing problems using 2x6V modules with 12V regs
3) Cost
4) Cost
My current 114V EV could be upgraded to 156V by changing the contactor,
but with 12V batteries that means buddy pairs, parallel strings, or a
single string of 13 batteries and a serious range penalty. Hopefully my
current pack will last until lithiums are affordable - not!
I'm planning a pickup conversion (if I can ever find a good used Toyota)
and was considering AGMs to avoid watering. A string of 26 would be 156V
and 1600+ pounds with only 13 regs. No parallel strings or 300V parts
required.
Thoughts?
Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It basically is not different than the Ford Ranger EV
conversoin from the weird 8V batteries to 12V as detailed
here: http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html
although my preference would be to tap into the inter-cell
connections to allow the BMS to still act on each block of
4 cells as Lee suggested before.
I have a request in for a drawing of the internal
battery interconnects to allow this without ruining them ;-)
For the GM S-10 the major issue would be to find a fitting
battery replacement and re-configure the battery box for them
but it is not essentially different than what was done for
the Ranger, going from the 8V to the 12V is also a huge step.
Since the S10 BMS is already made for 12V, that is one less
worry, batt temp sensors are not that critical - they can be
stuck to any battery independent of size or shape.
You will need to take care of battery cooling by providing
passages, but that is all in the art of selecting and
layout of a different battery size.
(IF the original battery cannot be obtained from UPS supply
as I outlined earlier)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
Hello John
I would not say the S-10 EV came to a dead end. EVbones put a lot of them
back in service with the NiMH batteries and is help keeping them in
service.
Making another battery tray could be done to accommodate other size
batteries. It would not be easy an easy fix. When you consider the cost of
the
batteries and the time and materials I would call Jeff first.
Don
In a message dated 11/2/2006 6:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm curious as to whether a replacement was ever determined for
the Panasonic VRLA batteries originally in the 97 S-10EV. Is that still
a no-go without seriously hacking the truck? Sorry for not replying
directly to the post shown below from the archives but it pre-dates
my list membership. It seems a shame that another factory EV has become
a dead end.
John
*********************************************
RE: S-10 oem on eBay
What everyone else said. Basically they're a wierd size battery that is
no
longer available, and the box has the thermal management integrated in
to it,
plus sensors going to individual batteries. Granted it should be
possible to
possibly make the BMS happy with something else, having seen the battery
box out
of one of these it would be quite a feat to get it all to work happily.
I foregot their name, but someone bought the last one off eBay with the
battery box all hacked up where someone had tried making their own
battery box
arrangement and last I heard he was talking with EVBones about possibly
getting
a stock box to try and put it back together.
Deffinitely not an easy backyard project.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Remind me what is wrong with replacing the original Panasonic VRLA
batteries with other SLA, either gel or AGM chemistry?
The specs http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/chvs10.pdf tell me
that the pack is only 48 Ah at C/2 rate and it has 40-60 miles
range with lead (and careful, constant speed driving).
This can easily be achieved again by a battery replacement,
I do not see why the truck would not be usable as is with
fresh batteries. (Saves a lot of money ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: S-10 oem on eBay
This will be interesting to see how much it goes for. Since the
batteries
are dead and the PbA batteries are no longer available about the only
option
with this would be to just ship it to EVBones and have a NiMH retrofit
done.
I've talked with Jeff and they said these trucks are so heavily
integrated
there's almost no chance you could ever put any other battery in there
other
than what's supposed to be in there.
At least the seller is being honest. There is another owner of one of
these trucks locally who I think was the original owner and he put
50,000
miles on the original PbA pack before it finally was done. He did this
by
never taking it below 50%. This was a few years ago I saw the truck
right
before they got a new pack, so I'm guessing it must have been one of the
last lead packs obtainable right at the end of the EV1 support.
Dang it looks like it's in good shape otherwise.
Mike Ellis wrote:
He posted his response, they batts are dead.
So tempting.
-Mike
On 4/10/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> 1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
>
> As a 1997, it would have been built with PbA batteries, so I think the
> posted range was optimistic in '97, and very optimistic now if it
still
> has the original 9 year old pack in it. I have sent a question to the
> seller asking if the batteries have been replaced. The truck itself
> looks to be nice. These finds always leave me wondering where the
truck
> has been hiding for the past 9 years.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks- do you know what its min voltage is? My pack is 192v, do you
think the 120V model could be used up to 204?
M
On Nov 3, 2006, at 2:56 PM, David Brandt wrote:
The 220V model does work on DC. I'm running a 228V pack and others
are running higher voltages. One recently confirmed it worked
while charging to 354V, IIRC.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 3, 2006 4:36:23 PM
Subject: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
I'm looking for a dc/dc for the Yaris that is high amperage and was
wondering if anyone has used the IOTA product with a higher voltage
pack?
My pack will be 192-204V and the IOTA 55 or 75A AC/DC specs are as
follows:
108-132V model- can go to 180V DC as per Iota sales
220-240V model (55A MAX) - Not know yet by Iota as to how far outside
the range or if DC can be used
Has anyone used the 108 model with a high pack voltage or the 220
model with a 192 or lower pack voltage with any success?
Thanks,
Mark
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls22055.htm
http://www.iotaengineering.com/dls75.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 3, 2006, at 3:29 PM, James Massey wrote:
Here is Silver Bullet with motors with male shafts coupled up to
shafts that take the belt that drives the input to the driveline (I
can't recall if the car still uses the gearbox, but that doesn't
matter for this bit of discussion).
Yes, it still uses the (well, "a") gearbox. I watched it race in
Woodburn and the driver was shifting. You could see the car squat and
go after each gear change.
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm riding 86 toyota pu 4wd.
I got 20 6v floodies from sams club. I've put 1200
miles on it, in the last month. They don't look like
they need water yet.
Later,
--- Adrian DeLeon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have experience with these batteries?
>
> Nearly identical to T-105s in size/weight. Only
> available with APW posts
> (marine dual terminals). I'm thinking better
> acceleration than T-105s with
> similar range. They list for ~$190 from places that
> sell T-105s for $150!
>
> Possible issues:
>
> 1) Finding regs for 6V AGMs (can a Rudman reg be
> modified for 6V
> operation?)
> 2) Charging/equalizing problems using 2x6V modules
> with 12V regs
> 3) Cost
> 4) Cost
>
> My current 114V EV could be upgraded to 156V by
> changing the contactor,
> but with 12V batteries that means buddy pairs,
> parallel strings, or a
> single string of 13 batteries and a serious range
> penalty. Hopefully my
> current pack will last until lithiums are affordable
> - not!
>
> I'm planning a pickup conversion (if I can ever find
> a good used Toyota)
> and was considering AGMs to avoid watering. A string
> of 26 would be 156V
> and 1600+ pounds with only 13 regs. No parallel
> strings or 300V parts
> required.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Adrian
>
> .
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
(http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah I know MS has a microcontroller. What I'm saying is there's
nothing there that justifies recycling a $$$ board that doesn't have
much of what you need and has a lot you don't need. Basically, you need
everything you need on one board or you get wire spaghetti everywhere
anyways, totally trashing the reliability and compactness of the device.
If you really wanted to do what they did, just look up the components
they ued and reuse them.
Reliable regulators is not at all difficult either. Noise is easy to
handle. Best thing for "bulletproofing" is a transorb- a zener diode
which shorts out the input if it spikes over a threshold- and replace
the fuse with a self-resetting polyfuse. Then you could take your reg
with VinMax of 30v and plug it into a 110v socket and it'll shut down
and reset flawlessly.
There are features you need in a controller to ensure it's reliable.
Watchdog timers and Brownout detection are the important parts.
Again I should emphasize- the real problem is the heavy-duty hardware-
input caps, transistors, transistor drivers, diodes, thick busbars,
terminals for 2/0 wire, heatsink, and an enclosure. Seriously, the PIC
controller is easy to select and write for. In many cases you can
change controllers with few code changes. Worrying about the controller
first is like debating what color the LEDs should be, and complaining
that we'll never get anywhere because we can't settle on whether the LED
should be green or red, some people even want blue sounds silly. Once
you have a circuit which takes a 0-5v PWM signal and a specification on
the thermistors and/or current sensors this is easy.
OK first off what do you want it to drive. A single transistor switch
(even if composed of many transistors in parallel), a switch and a sync
rectifier to replace the diode, or an AC drive? I can give a pretty
good suggestion as to which PIC to use. There are a wide spectrum of
PICs but only a few of them have really widespread use. But really
using an 18F4620 instead of a 18F1320 ain't gonna create a significant
problem.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
LOL - did you actually look at the schematic?
I've used PICs for years now, and I DO love those little buggers. The
MegaSquirt uses the Motorola equivalent of the MicroChip PIC. It *is*
a microcontroller, and it has all the goodies. It is basically a
microcontroller chip, a *well tested* power regulator circuit with
good noise immunity (turns out a simple regulator IC with no other
parts suppling a micro doesn't like an automotive environment). Add to
this an optoisolator and appropriate input protection for 1-5v
automotive sensors (including a TPS). It then has a dual gate driver
circuit for two MOSFETS because it PWMs the fuel injectors with a
current limit (which are basically high current, very fast solenoids).
All this has been in use for many years in really rough conditions (a
number of race/drag cars even). It has seen quite a bit of refinement
during that time.
Of course my REAL point is that there are currently dedicated people
working on it. What we have over here is twenty people who want to do
it ten different ways. Everyone wants to help, but few seem to agree
on how to make the "basic" setup. Questions of which micro to use,
which supervisor (aka reference) circuit to implement, what compiler
(if any) is used - all seem quite up in the air. My suggestion was
merely for a "jump-start" past all the head butting...
Basically what I'm saying is the controller & its code are not a
problem at all. The high current hardware side is the problem!
Well then, what micro setup are we all using so I can start writing
code for it and testing different power-stage setups?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the response. I did talk with Jeff before posting.
Unfortunately, it seems that the casing of the VRLA battery was shaped
to allow air circulation for temp control and the battery management
system was specific to that battery. To convert a VRLA system to NiMh
would mean changing the instrumentation and installing a NiMh pack with
unknown shelf life (EV1 pulls?) which would run at least $12k. He said
converting the VRLA system presently in that model to take another PbA
battery would be difficult. With the amount he said he would need to
charge I could buy a RAV4 EV on ebay if it were available.
I was hoping someone on the list had managed it. If it were feasible
I'd have considered trying to put BB600 nicads or golf cart PbA's in
one. Oh well. Maybe for someone with deeper pockets the VRLA model is
not a dead end, but my EV choices have narrowed now to a conversion or
waiting for the Freedom, Sunrise, Phoenix Motorcars, Nisan, etc. to be
available. I waited 6 months for this seller to make up their mind about
selling - should have checked with Jeff at the start.
John
On Thu, 2006-11-02 at 23:23 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hello John
>
> I would not say the S-10 EV came to a dead end. EVbones put a lot of them
> back in service with the NiMH batteries and is help keeping them in service.
>
> Making another battery tray could be done to accommodate other size
> batteries. It would not be easy an easy fix. When you consider the cost of
> the
> batteries and the time and materials I would call Jeff first.
>
> Don
>
>
> In a message dated 11/2/2006 6:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> I'm curious as to whether a replacement was ever determined for
> the Panasonic VRLA batteries originally in the 97 S-10EV. Is that still
> a no-go without seriously hacking the truck? Sorry for not replying
> directly to the post shown below from the archives but it pre-dates
> my list membership. It seems a shame that another factory EV has become
> a dead end.
>
> John
>
> *********************************************
>
>
> RE: S-10 oem on eBay
>
> What everyone else said. Basically they're a wierd size battery that is
> no
> longer available, and the box has the thermal management integrated in
> to it,
> plus sensors going to individual batteries. Granted it should be
> possible to
> possibly make the BMS happy with something else, having seen the battery
> box out
> of one of these it would be quite a feat to get it all to work happily.
>
> I foregot their name, but someone bought the last one off eBay with the
> battery box all hacked up where someone had tried making their own
> battery box
> arrangement and last I heard he was talking with EVBones about possibly
> getting
> a stock box to try and put it back together.
>
> Deffinitely not an easy backyard project.
>
> Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Remind me what is wrong with replacing the original Panasonic VRLA
> batteries with other SLA, either gel or AGM chemistry?
> The specs http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/chvs10.pdf tell me
> that the pack is only 48 Ah at C/2 rate and it has 40-60 miles
> range with lead (and careful, constant speed driving).
>
> This can easily be achieved again by a battery replacement,
> I do not see why the truck would not be usable as is with
> fresh batteries. (Saves a lot of money ;-)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:53 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: S-10 oem on eBay
>
>
> This will be interesting to see how much it goes for. Since the
> batteries
> are dead and the PbA batteries are no longer available about the only
> option
> with this would be to just ship it to EVBones and have a NiMH retrofit
> done.
> I've talked with Jeff and they said these trucks are so heavily
> integrated
> there's almost no chance you could ever put any other battery in there
> other
> than what's supposed to be in there.
>
> At least the seller is being honest. There is another owner of one of
> these trucks locally who I think was the original owner and he put
> 50,000
> miles on the original PbA pack before it finally was done. He did this
> by
> never taking it below 50%. This was a few years ago I saw the truck
> right
> before they got a new pack, so I'm guessing it must have been one of the
> last lead packs obtainable right at the end of the EV1 support.
>
> Dang it looks like it's in good shape otherwise.
>
> Mike Ellis wrote:
> He posted his response, they batts are dead.
>
> So tempting.
>
> -Mike
>
> On 4/10/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> > 1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
> >
> > As a 1997, it would have been built with PbA batteries, so I think the
> > posted range was optimistic in '97, and very optimistic now if it
> still
> > has the original 9 year old pack in it. I have sent a question to the
> > seller asking if the batteries have been replaced. The truck itself
> > looks to be nice. These finds always leave me wondering where the
> truck
> > has been hiding for the past 9 years.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jim Coate
> > 1970's Elec-Trak's
> > 1997 Solectria Force
> > 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brandon,
I assumed you are listing the retail (MSRP) pricing, not the day-to-day
varying street price in your spreadsheet.
The dealer price is generally half the suggested retail price, but if it is
not an EV enthusiast and volunteer/filantropist then they will mark up the
battery to earn their bread.
Some more specs of the batteries in your spreadsheet from
Universal Power Group in below table.
(Note that the name Universal Batteries is their name brand,
not a different manufacturer as you show for the UB121100;
I think it's best to rename all to Universal Battery as the
column bears the title "Brand")
I could not edit the spreadsheet, so here are the numbers;
let me know if you want them in Excel or Word instead:
(following is tab-delimited, copy into Excel or Word -> convert
text to table, separated by tabs)
Model Terminal Nom Capacity Dimensions (in.)
Weight Retail
# Volt 20 hr. rate L W H1 (lbs)
Pricing
AGM type:
UB-GC2 (Golf Cart) L 6 200.00 10.25 7.06 10.19
64.00 $245.00
UB12260 B1 12 26.00 6.50 6.86 4.94 18.05 $61.95
UB122260T B1 12 26.00 6.50 4.94 6.86 21.00
$117.60
UB12350 (Group U1) L 12 35.00 7.69 5.13 7.00
24.00 $69.95
UB12350 (Group U1) B2 12 35.00 7.69 5.13 6.25
24.00 $69.95
U1-40 B1 12 40.00 7.25 5.19 7.06 26.10 $130.00
UB12500 L 12 50.00 7.69 6.50 7.19 30.50 $109.95
UB12550 (Group 22NF) Z 12 55.00 9.00 5.44 9.00
38.50 $130.00
UB12550 (Group 22NF) B2 12 55.00 9.00 5.44 8.25
38.50 $130.00
UB12750 (Group 24) Z 12 75.00 10.25 6.13 9.13
54.50 $148.80
UB12750 (Group 24) B2 12 75.00 10.19 6.63 8.69
53.10 $148.80
UB12900 (Group 27) Z 12 90.00 12.00 6.63 9.06
63.40 $180.75
UB12900 (Group 27) B2 12 90.00 12.00 6.63 8.63
64.00 $180.75
UB121000 (Group 27) Z 12 100.00 12.00 6.63 8.63
64.00 $185.95
UB121100 (Group 30H) Flag / L-BLADE 12 110.00 13.00 6.75
10.50 71.10 $204.85
UB121100 (Group 30H) B2 12 110.00 13.00 6.75 8.56
71.10 $204.85
UB121350 B2 12 135.00 13.38 6.81 11.22 87.08
$360.00
UB-4D AGM L-BLADE 12 200.00 20.50 8.13 10.00 132.00
$397.00
UB-8D AGM L-BLADE 12 250.00 20.50 10.50 10.00 167.00
$530.00
GEL type:
UB-GC2 (Golf Cart) Gel L 6 200.00 10.25 7.06 10.19
64.00 $375.00
U1 GEL L 12 32.00 7.69 5.19 7.00 23.10 $86.50
UB-22NF GEL Z 12 60.00 9.00 5.38 9.06 37.10
$158.50
UB-24 GEL Z 12 75.00 10.25 6.63 9.25 50.10
$183.75
UB-27 GEL Z 12 90.00 12.00 6.57 9.00 59.00
$216.75
UB-30H GEL FLAG 12 100.00 13.00 6.82 9.63 67.00
$240.65
UB-4D GEL L-BLADE 12 200.00 20.50 8.13 10.00 132.00
$495.00
UB-8D GEL L-BLADE 12 250.00 20.50 10.50 10.00 167.00
$695.00
Some popular types that I know of:
UB12260 - used in US Electricar Prizm iso original Hawker 26 Ah
UB12750 - used in Ford Ranger conversion from 8V to 12V
UB121100 - used in some US Electricar S10 trucks to convert 2x 42Ah string
to single string.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Brandon Kruger
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 1:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Spreadsheet
Added! If anyone could find prices for any of these batteries it
would be greatly appreciated. Also, I'm not familiar with "Peukert's
number", I'll look it up.
Thanks for the suggestions,
Brandon Kruger
On 11/2/06, Bruce <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Good job on the battery spreadsheet Brandon! I'd been searching for
> something like that myself. What about adding the common Dyno and
> Interstate batteries? Specs for each are here:
> http://www.dynobattery.com/prod01.htm
>
http://www.interstatebatteries.com/www_2001/content/products/product_golfcar
.asp
> And a column for Peukert's number would make it pretty complete!
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Brandon Kruger wrote: I've made a
> > spreadsheet of about 50 different batteries comparing capacity,
> > weight, etc. It can be accessed here:
> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA. I
> > hope this can help others in finding a suitable battery.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Peco-2 telco supply rack that I recently dismantled
also has this weird battery size of about 15 inches long
and 5 inches wide battery slots in the battery trays.
If it had been fully equipped with the backup batteries,
I bet that it could have been used to get an S10 back
on the road - well, almost, as it has 6 shelves with
4 batteries each (48V)
So you may want to call Peco and see how they supply
backup batteries, then you may have found a source for
the S10 batteries....
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
Hello John
I would not say the S-10 EV came to a dead end. EVbones put a lot of them
back in service with the NiMH batteries and is help keeping them in
service.
Making another battery tray could be done to accommodate other size
batteries. It would not be easy an easy fix. When you consider the cost of
the
batteries and the time and materials I would call Jeff first.
Don
In a message dated 11/2/2006 6:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm curious as to whether a replacement was ever determined for
the Panasonic VRLA batteries originally in the 97 S-10EV. Is that still
a no-go without seriously hacking the truck? Sorry for not replying
directly to the post shown below from the archives but it pre-dates
my list membership. It seems a shame that another factory EV has become
a dead end.
John
*********************************************
RE: S-10 oem on eBay
What everyone else said. Basically they're a wierd size battery that is
no
longer available, and the box has the thermal management integrated in
to it,
plus sensors going to individual batteries. Granted it should be
possible to
possibly make the BMS happy with something else, having seen the battery
box out
of one of these it would be quite a feat to get it all to work happily.
I foregot their name, but someone bought the last one off eBay with the
battery box all hacked up where someone had tried making their own
battery box
arrangement and last I heard he was talking with EVBones about possibly
getting
a stock box to try and put it back together.
Deffinitely not an easy backyard project.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Remind me what is wrong with replacing the original Panasonic VRLA
batteries with other SLA, either gel or AGM chemistry?
The specs http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/chvs10.pdf tell me
that the pack is only 48 Ah at C/2 rate and it has 40-60 miles
range with lead (and careful, constant speed driving).
This can easily be achieved again by a battery replacement,
I do not see why the truck would not be usable as is with
fresh batteries. (Saves a lot of money ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: S-10 oem on eBay
This will be interesting to see how much it goes for. Since the
batteries
are dead and the PbA batteries are no longer available about the only
option
with this would be to just ship it to EVBones and have a NiMH retrofit
done.
I've talked with Jeff and they said these trucks are so heavily
integrated
there's almost no chance you could ever put any other battery in there
other
than what's supposed to be in there.
At least the seller is being honest. There is another owner of one of
these trucks locally who I think was the original owner and he put
50,000
miles on the original PbA pack before it finally was done. He did this
by
never taking it below 50%. This was a few years ago I saw the truck
right
before they got a new pack, so I'm guessing it must have been one of the
last lead packs obtainable right at the end of the EV1 support.
Dang it looks like it's in good shape otherwise.
Mike Ellis wrote:
He posted his response, they batts are dead.
So tempting.
-Mike
On 4/10/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> 1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
>
> As a 1997, it would have been built with PbA batteries, so I think the
> posted range was optimistic in '97, and very optimistic now if it
still
> has the original 9 year old pack in it. I have sent a question to the
> seller asking if the batteries have been replaced. The truck itself
> looks to be nice. These finds always leave me wondering where the
truck
> has been hiding for the past 9 years.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It's got a UART too, from my evaluation of the task at hand this is
> essential. More than enough RAM & ROM. Special Features include the
> standard WDT, FSCM, BOR, & ICSP. I also looked it up and it's
supported
> by the ICD2 for In Circuit Debugging which is really helpful.
>
For some folks on the list, here's what this whole discussion sounds
like: http://ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/retro.html (G-rated video clip)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have you ever seen a big motor made up of a bunch of small ones?
No? Then it must be more efficient to build one bigger one.
That said, a ring of 100 small motors would be cool, and I'd like to
encourage you to build one so I can see it.
Jack
GWMobile wrote:
Does the efficiency of a motor go up or down with size?
Just out of curiousity would a thouasand toy electric car motors linked
to a drive wheel by a rim gear on the wheel be more or less efficient
and or costly than a single large motor of similiar output running
through a tranny? (Wonder what the torque is of those tiny motorific
type toy car motors.)
Keep in mind you could turn off the portion of tiny motors you aren't
using at any speed or acceleration mode.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:56 PM, Rush wrote:
I was just going thru a book I just got "Race Car Aerodynamics,
Designing for Speed", by Joseph Katz. On page 15 there is a brief
description of 'The Impact of Racing Aerodynamics on Production Cars'
-
"One typical example of this group is the 1995 Dodge Ram truck, shown
in Fig 1.25. Note the rounded nose, which in addition to improving its
appearance also helps to reduce front drag. The problem with most
pickup trucks , though is the large base drag created by the cabin and
the tailgate. The drag coefficient of this Dodge Ram is about Cd=0.47,
which can be improved by dropping the tailgate or even covering the
bed. Some aftermarket products are aimed at improvements in this area
and nets replacing the tailgate can create noticeable effects. The
tailgate itself can also be turned into an airfoil, and when rotated
horizontally can add to the rear downforce and at the same time reduce
drag".
According to this book, if you open the tail gate you reduce drag...
No, according to this book if you open the tail gate on a 1995 Dodge
Ram truck you can reduce drag. The results on other pickups will vary.
If you have access to similar data on one or more of the smaller
pickups please share. Many on this list would like to have aerodynamic
information about their electric pickup.
Paul
--- End Message ---
